Power and gas is to expensive.

[gronk]

As I said above, we haven't got a solution yet. Maybe in time, but alluding to the tooth fairy scenario, we haven't got anywhere near the capability to produce power overnight without coal or gas.  Wind is unreliable of a night time, and can be during the day, and hydro is miniscule for our needs......and battery backup is almost non existant.

[GeoffA]

If we replaced the coal and gas system with renewable, it would be done correctly. We have to do it anyway over time.

Wind power runs by the wind, not only over daytime. So it isn't the same as solar.

So, without coal and gas, we would run solar/wind/hydro/etc and run them with adequate battery system to allow the system to run when the sun is out and the wind isn't running.

Port Augusta is starting to build a large solar system: https://reneweconomy.com.au/aurora-what-you-should-know-about-port-augustas-solar-power-tower-86715/

That is only one plant. If we want to move forward there are many options other than burning coal and continuing to wrecking the environment.

I find it amusing when people support batteries as a valid option, but denounce burning coal as wrecking the environment.

Batteries are NOT green....

[Bigfish]

I find it amusing when people support batteries as a valid option, but denounce burning coal as wrecking the environment.

Batteries are NOT green....

I find it amusing that thousands have died from coal related illness,s but not many from batteries..

[GeoffA]

I find it amusing that thousands have died from coal related illness,s but not many from batteries..

...yet...

I repeat, batteries are NOT green....

[alnjan]

I find it amusing when people support batteries as a valid option, but denounce burning coal as wrecking the environment.

Batteries are NOT green....

They're not renewable either.  Lithium mines look just as 'bad' as any other open cut mine.   

[glenm64]

You need to differentiate between current (mainly coal fired) power generation and new investment in power generation.
No one, I think, is arguing to close all coal fired generators.
The dilemma capital investors have is they have no clear government policy direction for them to make long term investment decisions. Hence their reluctance to build any new stations, which is our biggest problem.

Refurbishment of old coal fired power stations is very expensive and not cost effective. After spending $300million on 50 year old Muja here in WA they gave up, and decided to close it.
When people compare electricity generation in $ per Mwh they quote 30 - 50 year old coal fired power stations against new build wind and solar.
Coal is cheaper in this comparison ($40 Mwh) compared to wind($60-70 Mwh)
But with 8 old coal fired power stations closed between 2012 and 2016, and more pending, it is putting more pressure on old infrastructure.
If you start to compare new build power stations, coal ($75 Mwh) starts to lose it cost advantage.
https://theconversation.com/factcheck-qanda-is-coal-still-cheaper-than-renewables-as-an-energy-source-81263

Solar now costs 50 USD Mwh to produce, so is cost comparative to new build coal, but not inclusive of storage costs for non generation periods.
Its hard to get real costs for Australia due to feed in tariffs, rebates and renewable target offsets.
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/solar-power-cost-decrease-2018-5?r=US&IR=T

Like all markets, scale of economy are reducing the costs of renewables as they develop.
Port Augusta's solar thermal power station is contracted to have a maximum cost of $78 Mwh.
Its easy to ridicule the SA government, saying they will have the highest energy prices in Australia, but new power stations must be built, and it has cost parity with new build coal fired power stations. They are locking in energy security which is what all of Australia needs to do.
Unfortunately Australia as a nation is getting sucked into playing the party politic based arguments, which are all short term (election) focused.
What we need is immediate investment in new build power generation, that have competitive costs. New builds can take anywhere up to 5 - 8 years to complete, but we dont have much longer before we have a critical energy vulnerability.

Within a decade, around half of Australia's coal fired power stations will be over 40years old, with some current operating stations approaching 60 years, all using obsolete technology.
75% of coal fired power stations are operating beyond their original design life.
Not worried? You should be!

Cheers Glen

[tryagain]

Lithium mines look just as 'bad' as any other open cut mine.

Technically true, but the edit vast majority of lithium doesn't come from open cut mines. crossed out as no longer the case

[Bigfish]

They're not renewable either.  Lithium mines look just as 'bad' as any other open cut mine.

No they are not renewable but they are recyclable.  Coal is not either.

[alnjan]

Technically true, but the vast majority of lithium doesn't come from open cut mines.

From what I was reading the increased demand for lithium has found the evaporation method of extracting lithium is not keeping up to demand, hence the recent and rapid expansion of the open cut mining of lithium which is over taking the supply of the previous evaporation method.

[tryagain]

From what I was reading the increased demand for lithium has found the evaporation method of extracting lithium is not keeping up to demand, hence the recent and rapid expansion of the open cut mining of lithium which is over taking the supply of the previous evaporation method.

Looks like you are probably right, what I was reading was from a few years ago but looks like as demand has skyrocketed that has been mostly met  by open cut which is where the majority now comes from.

[alnjan]

Looks like you are probably right, what I was reading was from a few years ago but looks like as demand has skyrocketed that has been mostly met  by open cut which is where the majority now comes from.

Yeah, demand and money.    Some of the mines are just as large with an environmental impact as any other open cut mine

[gronk]

I find it amusing that thousands have died from coal related illness,s but not many from batteries..

Not in this country.....apart from perhaps 5 or 10 from dust related disease that has come to light.....that should have never happened in this  enlightened age.....the only deaths  that I've ever heard of have been accidents,, which although it is a dangerous occupation, mostly could have been avoided as well.

Same as the  towns that are at risk from coal dust near a power station....I live close by one such town and there has never been any data or a suggestion of illness related to coal dust.......and not suggesting there is anything good about coal dust.......but it's not like the beatup that the greenies make out.

[briann532]

I find it amusing when people support batteries as a valid option, but denounce burning coal as wrecking the environment.

Batteries are NOT green....

This one is

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjEt73Gmq3dAhWYHXAKHSGWD5kQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.indiamart.com%2Fproddetail%2Fluminous-solar-battery-15940449962.html&psig=AOvVaw0L7px8RqW6bYSVD3G7QwYr&ust=1536557926388183



Just kidding.....
I agree with you and I install the damn things!!!

[GeoffA]

This one is

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjEt73Gmq3dAhWYHXAKHSGWD5kQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.indiamart.com%2Fproddetail%2Fluminous-solar-battery-15940449962.html&psig=AOvVaw0L7px8RqW6bYSVD3G7QwYr&ust=1536557926388183



Just kidding.....
I agree with you and I install the damn things!!!

Yeah, I've been waiting for it. I'd do it too.....

[Bird]

interesting
https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/labor-offers-a-4838-battery-bonanza-for-homes-with-solar-panels-20180910-p502wc.html

must be an election coming, the manure is flowing and the millions are being found left right and ...

[Rodt]

able to claim half the cost – up to $4838   

F**k me how much do these batteries cost?

[Bird]

able to claim half the cost – up to $4838   

F**k me how much do these batteries cost?

from what I've read... that wont get you much battery.

[plusnq]

from what I've read... that wont get you much battery.

It's about right https://www.solarchoice.net.au/blog/battery-storage-price-index-august-2018/

[Bird]

It's about right https://www.solarchoice.net.au/blog/battery-storage-price-index-august-2018/

yea for min spec.. I have no idea what most people would need, but I cant see Gov Co giving anything decent to the lemmings.

[BC66]

To work out the size of your battery needs , get a power meter and connect to your house to measure what you would typically use over night.
Power meters are relatively cheap.
https://reductionrevolution.com.au/products/efergy-elite-classic-wireless-energy-monitor?utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=googlepla&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIxNy6samy3QIVl6DsCh3iRQ4MEAQYAiABEgK60vD_BwE
Measure your power usage from 3.30pm to 8.30 am to get an idea of how much your spending each night.
The average home with Mum dad and a few kids will need around 10kw of battery storage.
This will provide power to the home at night and then recharge during the day. Once charged your system will export to the grid. If you run out of power at night, it will switch back to the grid till the batteries are ready again.
They also have EPPS which is emergency power for black outs so things like fridges and maybe a few lights will still operate till power is restored. Now these are not going to make your house off grid, that's another and more expensive story


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[BC66]

Oh and I just discovered my Home UPS uses 200 watts of power 24/7. That works out to be costing us $184 per quarter and is about to be unplugged !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Bird]

Oh and I just discovered my Home UPS uses 200 watts of power 24/7. That works out to be costing us $184 per quarter and is about to be unplugged !

what UPS is it

[BC66]

what UPS is it

Some old Upsonic Power 1000va thingy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[briann532]

able to claim half the cost – up to $4838   

F**k me how much do these batteries cost?

I recently installed a Fronius battery setup for a client.

$27,600 just for the battery setup, he already had the solar side of things...............

Yep, he was happy and couldn't pay fast enough.

[GeoffA]

interesting
https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/labor-offers-a-4838-battery-bonanza-for-homes-with-solar-panels-20180910-p502wc.html

must be an election coming, the manure is flowing and the millions are being found left right and ...

.....and the brunt of the bill will be felt by those who can least afford it, and those not in a position to take advantage of the scheme....