Author Topic: Power and gas is to expensive.  (Read 46885 times)

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Offline gronk

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #100 on: September 24, 2017, 09:08:52 PM »
Can you explain the bit about storage.......or in a simpler term, base load power ? To my (limited) knowledge, except during winter when the snowy dams are full and we can generate some hydro, which isn't renewable energy, I don't know of anywhere in Australia that is AT PRESENT storing renewable energy ?

????????????
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Offline Symon

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #101 on: September 24, 2017, 09:47:25 PM »
Tryagain, I am not going to debate you any more, I have a life to live.  You and the COALition keep trying to flog Liddell. Its a dead horse. I think you would be better reading Pete79 post, and get an understanding of the problems. If you know the problems you know how to fix the the problem, yes?

Sorry, but you throwing around terms like COALition just presents you, and your arguments, in the same light as a 12 year old pratt who is crying over his dropped ice cream.

The state of the energy market is the fault of both major parties, with a fairly significant influence from the Greens as well.  Labor is just as much at fault as the Coalition for the slow uptake of renewables, as well as the significant technical challenges of large scale generation from intermittent sources such as wind and solar.  You just have to look at the issues Germany faced when they imposed aggressive renewable targets on a network that was not ready for it.

It is a far more complex issue than your simplistic assumptions.  Yes Australia is well placed to take advantage of renewable sources, and we will over the next 20-30 years transition as the existing coal fired stations reach end of life, but to do so successfully needs methodical, rational thought - which is well beyond the ability of most politicians and the short-sighted and sensationalist mainstream media.
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Offline suby

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #102 on: September 24, 2017, 10:14:27 PM »
Can you explain the bit about storage.......or in a simpler term, base load power ? To my (limited) knowledge, except during winter when the snowy dams are full and we can generate some hydro, which isn't renewable energy, I don't know of anywhere in Australia that is AT PRESENT storing renewable energy ?

Pumped hydro is old technology that is use now within Australia to balance baseload power plants and solar and wind (connected to the grid). At the moment only a small fraction of Australia's power is generated by solar and wind. The majority of current power is from Coal, but we have an aging infrastructure and we are unlikely going build new coal power stations because of the carbon footprint of burning coal. Most if not all new generation will be from renewable energy.

Moving forward we will need to use several technologies to make it all work. Apparently it is not a big issue until you start to get about 50% renewables. Only South Australia is getting to around that mark. Most other states are not approaching this level at this time. The price problems and outages you may have had are not from renewable energy but from bad management and forward planning and policy development ( see my posts previous to this).

So given that renewables are going to be used. We need to fix the network and install storage to make it all work, when the sun does not shine and the wind does not blow, we still can get power at reasonable cost.  Just as we use pumped hydro previously to stabilise Coal baseload power stations, we need to do the same with renewable energy, only we need more of it. This pumped hydro is attached to the grid/network, so its connected to both coal power stations and solar and wind at the same time.

The network/grid needs to be improved so more interconnects are put between states and distributed new power generation. This is a problem that needs fixing to enable reliability. Our governments need to invest in policy/development as it has failed to meet uptime commitments, and will help reduce costs. Recent research has found many sites around Australia that could be used as pumped storage locations. Its best to keep this storage distributed across the grid/network.
 
Coal will be phased out over the next 30 years, over this time will be using existing of the shelf technology like pumped storage, solar, wind, battery, hydro, gas, and coal, and probably other and new technology ( not in any order).

We have international commitments to reduce  CO2, This is for our kids and grand kids to have a future.
 

From Wikipedia:
The most important use for pumped storage has traditionally been to balance baseload powerplants, but may also be used to abate the fluctuating output of intermittent energy sources. Pumped storage provides a load at times of high electricity output and low electricity demand, enabling additional system peak capacity. In certain jurisdictions, electricity prices may be close to zero or occasionally negative on occasions that there is more electrical generation available than there is load available to absorb it; although at present this is rarely due to wind or solar power alone, increased wind and solar generation will increase the likelihood of such occurrences. It is particularly likely that pumped storage will become especially important as a balance for very large scale photovoltaic generation.[12] Increased long distance transmission capacity combined with significant amounts of energy storage will be a crucial part of regulating any large-scale deployment of intermittent renewable power sources
« Last Edit: September 24, 2017, 10:22:21 PM by suby »

Offline suby

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #103 on: September 24, 2017, 10:19:45 PM »
Sorry, but you throwing around terms like COALition just presents you, and your arguments, in the same light as a 12 year old pratt who is crying over his dropped ice cream.

The state of the energy market is the fault of both major parties, with a fairly significant influence from the Greens as well.  Labor is just as much at fault as the Coalition for the slow uptake of renewables, as well as the significant technical challenges of large scale generation from intermittent sources such as wind and solar.  You just have to look at the issues Germany faced when they imposed aggressive renewable targets on a network that was not ready for it.

It is a far more complex issue than your simplistic assumptions.  Yes Australia is well placed to take advantage of renewable sources, and we will over the next 20-30 years transition as the existing coal fired stations reach end of life, but to do so successfully needs methodical, rational thought - which is well beyond the ability of most politicians and the short-sighted and sensationalist mainstream media.

Okay I take your point. I need to stop it. And agree its not easy. We do need to get on with it though. The world in general will find the best way to get to renewables, despite all this, we will adapt. 

Offline gronk

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #104 on: September 24, 2017, 11:12:32 PM »
Pumped hydro is old technology that is use now within Australia to balance baseload power plants and solar and wind (connected to the grid).

Umm, where in Australia is pumped hydro being used ?
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Offline Andy_Q

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #105 on: September 24, 2017, 11:36:11 PM »
Umm, where in Australia is pumped hydro being used ?
The snowy scheme.


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Offline tryagain

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #106 on: September 24, 2017, 11:46:14 PM »
Umm, where in Australia is pumped hydro being used ?

Currently, Tumit#3, Shoalhaven and Tarraleah in Tasmania, Wivenhoe and soon to be Kidston in FNQ

Offline GeoffA

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #107 on: September 25, 2017, 05:49:36 AM »
.........  Yes Australia is well placed to take advantage of renewable sources, and we will over the next 20-30 years transition as the existing coal fired stations reach end of life, but to do so successfully needs methodical, rational thought - which is well beyond the ability of most politicians and the short-sighted and sensationalist mainstream media.

.....and the greens....
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Offline gronk

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #108 on: September 25, 2017, 06:42:39 AM »
The snowy scheme.


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Is it ?   I wasn't aware of any of the stations pumping their water back up the top again ? I assumed they were all gravity fed ?
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Offline Pete79

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Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #109 on: September 25, 2017, 06:58:15 AM »
I haven't seen the government arguing for new coal-fired power plants


;)
Quote
Mr Abbott also suggested governments should build coal-fired power stations.

"Power generation is an essential service and if the market won't build coal-fired power stations, if the market won't build base load power, the government has got to," he said.


Hehe, sorry couldn't resist... ;) ;D


Can't forget the link.
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/tony-abbott-criticises-government-on-energy-policy-samesex-marriage-plebiscite-20170919-gykrys.html
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 07:00:48 AM by Pete79 »

Offline tryagain

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #110 on: September 25, 2017, 09:08:24 AM »
Important bits are in bold

Quote
I haven't seen the government arguing for new coal-fired power plants


Quote
Mr Abbott also suggested governments should build coal-fired power stations.


Quote
Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull says his Government has no plans to build a new coal-fired power station


 ;D

Offline tryagain

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #111 on: September 25, 2017, 09:20:14 AM »
Is it ?   I wasn't aware of any of the stations pumping their water back up the top again ? I assumed they were all gravity fed ?
The only one that pumps back up in the Snowy Scheme is Tumut 3 Power Station.

Offline Symon

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Offline mrdenn1s

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #113 on: September 25, 2017, 03:45:47 PM »
Come on, hard to blame him. It all started when each government started to sell off the power stations etc.  Now you have big companies whos job is to make money.  Just be glad you can switch. We have no choice because we do not live in south east Queensland.  Kevin

Nothing to do with that. In fact, states that have privatised have the cheapest network and power prices. The issue is the change to renewables. Each new wind farm or solar farm needs to be paid for. As does the grid upgrades to handle power generation usually in places where the grid wasn't designed to handle it.

Wind power currently is being generated at around $65 / MWH. Solar is around $85 / MWH

Existing coal is below $40 / MWH.

Therefore, the cost of the renewable power is about 50% more expensive than the coal it is replacing.

Renewables physically cannot be cheaper currently than existing coal. Anyone that tells you it is is misinformed or a liar.

Add on to that transmission line upgrades that the networks need to do to ensure that this generation can flow.

That's why your power prices are going up.
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Offline mrdenn1s

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #114 on: September 25, 2017, 03:51:59 PM »
Umm, where in Australia is pumped hydro being used ?

Kangaroo Valley. Been operating since the 70's
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Offline tryagain

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #115 on: September 25, 2017, 04:39:46 PM »
Worth a read - http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-25/the-truth-about-soaring-power-prices/8979860

It is

I remember reading that the take-up of Air Conditioners was one of the main reasons for the increase in electricity bills, this is because they are the main driver of peak demand and therefore the main driver of network costs which are the main driver of increased energy costs.
Just found a reference to it, from the 2012 Energy White Paper, it basically says that at the time for every 2kw ($1500 at the time) of Airconditiner purchased, it costs the network up to $7000 in network costs to cope with the peak demand. Air conditioners have also come down in cost a lot now compared to that so the equation is likely even worse.

https://www.energymatters.com.au/renewable-news/em3459/

Offline gronk

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #116 on: September 25, 2017, 06:43:39 PM »
Kangaroo Valley. Been operating since the 70's

It uses "excess" electricity to pump water back up.   I might ring up my provider and see if I can get some "excess" electricity ??
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Offline Bigfish

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #117 on: September 26, 2017, 10:30:01 AM »



Australia will need up to three-quarters of its electricity coming from renewables by 2030 if it is to cut emissions in the cheapest way under a clean energy target.

But a new analysis from the Australia Institute finds the same emissions cut could be achieved with fewer renewables under a carbon price or an emissions intensity scheme - two policies rejected by the Turnbull government.

The think tank's analysis of modelling done for government agencies, released on Monday, finds the energy sector should do the heavy lifting if Australia is to meet its international emission reduction pledge in the most efficient way.

This is largely because the electricity sector can easily turn to renewables using technology already commercially available, while sectors such as agriculture, construction and manufacturing would have to either cut production or invest heavily in research.

Australia has committed under the UN-led Paris agreement to cut its emissions by 26-28 per cent below 2005 levels by 2030.

If electricity is to take on a comparatively higher burden of this task, Australia Institute research director Rod Campbell says it should cut emissions by 40-55 per cent by 2030.

To achieve this using a clean energy target - the policy the government is now considering - would lead to renewables making up between two-thirds and three-quarters of generation by 2030, the analysis finds.

This is substantially higher than Labor's aim for 50 per cent renewables, which the government has ridiculed.

But if cuts were achieved using a carbon price or an emissions intensity scheme, there would be more gas generation and less renewables.

"It is ironic that government-commissioned modelling shows that the policies that would minimise renewable energy penetration, such as carbon pricing and an EIS, have already been rejected," Mr Campbell writes.

"All that remains is the CET that would bring in the largest share of renewable generation, or the prospect of failing to meet our Paris climate targets."

Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull is facing pressure within the coalition to reshape or weaken the clean energy target to encourage the extension or further take-up of coal-fired power.

Institute executive director Ben Oquist warned the analysis showed if the government adopted a weak clean energy target, it risked making a very expensive task of reaching Australia's Paris agreement target.

He points out the government has consistently pledged to stick to its international obligations.

"It remains to be seen if we choose to meet those Paris commitments the easy way, or the hard way," he said.

Offline gronk

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #118 on: September 26, 2017, 06:48:46 PM »




"It remains to be seen if we choose to meet those Paris commitments the easy way, or the hard way," he said.

Either way, it will be hard on our pockets. To show the world we care.....we have set ourselves up for prolonged hip pocket pain.

Same with the gas....too busy selling it all without doing some basic sums on how much WE actually need ?
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Offline alnjan

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #119 on: September 26, 2017, 07:01:31 PM »
Well we can't ride on the back of the sheep anymore to prosper and really our days of mining are numbered so what is next
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Offline Bigfish

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #120 on: September 26, 2017, 08:10:23 PM »
Well we can't ride on the back of the sheep anymore to prosper and really our days of mining are numbered so what is next

Fertilizer trade.  Cull and mulch up all the dead beat pollies, kiddy fiddlin priests, rapists, murderers, druggies and domestic violence pricks. Sell overseas for farming fertilizer and we will have a booming trade.

Offline koshari

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #121 on: September 26, 2017, 09:05:52 PM »
Fertilizer trade.  Cull and mulch up all the dead beat pollies, kiddy fiddlin priests, rapists, murderers, druggies and domestic violence pricks. Sell overseas for farming fertilizer and we will have a booming trade.

i dont think it would be sustainable......
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Offline Pete79

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #122 on: September 26, 2017, 09:30:14 PM »
i dont think it would be sustainable......
I would have said it's renewable, they seam to keep popping up every day.
As quick as we sack 'em or jail 'em there's another back in the news again.... ;)

Offline tryagain

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #123 on: September 26, 2017, 10:09:57 PM »
I would have said it's renewable, they seam to keep popping up every day.
As quick as we sack 'em or jail 'em there's another back in the news again.... ;)


Nope, fertiliser plants are becoming unsustainable here in part due to the high gas prices.

http://www.bca.com.au/media/why-incitec-pivot-built-a-factory-in-the-us-not-australia

Offline Pete79

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #124 on: September 26, 2017, 10:25:27 PM »
Nope, fertiliser plants are becoming unsustainable here in part due to the high gas prices.

http://www.bca.com.au/media/why-incitec-pivot-built-a-factory-in-the-us-not-australia

Hmmm, not sure if I should continue the joke and say that Incitec built their fertilizer plant in the US because there is more dodgy politicians, pedo priests and wife beaters over there. ;)
Or take this comment seriously and say the yanks can have their water taps that catch on fire and critically sick kids caused by all that unregulated fracking causing so many toxic water supplies in so many towns... :(