Author Topic: Power and gas is to expensive.  (Read 46610 times)

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Offline Pete79

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Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #50 on: September 14, 2017, 11:47:37 PM »
Meanwhile out in the real world The Australian reports 13 Sept 2017-


As you may have guessed by now, I don't read the Australian.
It's my personal choice, opinion is not news and shouldn't be sold as such.

But anyway your posts have prompted me to do some searching.
I believe in paying for things that deserve to be payed for, so I googled "the Australian Newspaper - AGL" and read as many "news" stories as I could until they put up their paywall. ;)

If that's your source of "news" then I now clearly understand your position on this topic.
Everyone is untitled to their opinion and I don't begrudge anyone for their point of view, but this story pretty much sums up the tone of all the stories in my search results. If nothing else it has reaffirmed my thoughts about this media outlet's agenda....
Sadly though, it is a long way away from what's happening in the "real world"...
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/judith-sloan/how-agl-is-having-its-cake-and-eating-it/news-story/bf9a12ef3adea6287c3e9dcb8fe2573a

And why does Newscorp hate AGL so much?
Maybe the truth hurts....??
http://www.afr.com/news/agl-energys-andy-vesey-says-coal-investment-doesnt-add-up-20170620-gwv2fq
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 11:52:17 PM by Pete79 »

Offline suby

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #51 on: September 15, 2017, 12:38:58 AM »

The pay-walls and false news, just suck. I refuse to use media like this.

A good free site ( I subscribe because I like to support free press ) that covers news in general very well. 

Even John Hewson the former leader of the Liberal party, has something to say about lies feed to us by the COALition and most media on this subject. We have no leadership because of ideology.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/14/the-current-energy-debate-is-farcical-what-does-this-government-stand-for?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+AUS+v1+-+AUS+morning+mail+callout&utm_term=243534&subid=17142468&CMP=ema_632

Power is going up, global worming up, and relibality down, because of this lot. 

Offline garryc

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #52 on: September 15, 2017, 07:51:26 AM »
I'm not sure whether this is correct.
Didn't the NSW Gov own Liddell until about 2014 when it was virtually given to AGL?
Surely if the governement still owned it there would be no debate,the governement could simply choose to keep it open or close it.
Am I being too simplistic?

Offline Metters

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #53 on: September 15, 2017, 11:43:47 AM »
We only have ourselves to blame for all of this.  We are the bunnies who toddle along to the poling booths at each election and, after complaining about the size of some of the ballot papers, we blindly vote for the two major parties after following their how to vote cards.  We haven't a clue who most of the candidates are or where our vote is going if the candidate on top does not get enough.

Any undesirable group can slowly but surely penetrate local branches and get their candidate into Government thanks to a thing called the "safe seat".  Once they have enough in there they can take the country in any direction they want.

I am inclined to think we are following this cycle very closely and are down to the second last stage.   http://www.wrisley.com/cycle.htm   It is claimed it was written by Alexander Tytler in the late 1700s and there are many other sites covering it.

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #54 on: September 15, 2017, 12:16:46 PM »
Quote from: Metters
We are the bunnies who toddle along to the poling booths at each election and...
it doesn't matter who you vote for, they are all as ****ed as each other and have been for a couple of decades now

IMWO, if you voted for "XYZ" or "ABC" party it makes no difference.

So if I voted Labour or Green or Pink or Sex Party - things would be different?
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Offline Cruiser 105Tvan

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #55 on: September 15, 2017, 01:41:56 PM »
it doesn't matter who you vote for, they are all as ****ed as each other and have been for a couple of decades now

IMWO, if you voted for "XYZ" or "ABC" party it makes no difference.

So if I voted Labour or Green or Pink or Sex Party - things would be different?
You don't have to be a living person to vote either.
They've got records of dead people who cast a vote at Nunawading during an election.  Can't remember when it was, might have been late nineties.
They never did work that one out.
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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #56 on: September 15, 2017, 02:26:21 PM »
Quote from: Cruiser 105Tvan
You don't have to be a living person to vote either.
They've got records of dead people who cast a vote at Nunawading during an election.  Can't remember when it was, might have been late nineties.
They never did work that one out.
They did that on the Simpsons too... and the dead cat voted too ;D

Lets be honest, *someone* walks in and says its their name... it could be anyone on earth or under the earth.. they don't ask for ID which is about the only place on the planet that doesn't ask for 12000000 forms of ID...
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Offline prodigyrf

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #57 on: September 15, 2017, 02:54:50 PM »
The political malaise at present is all about the big fib that wind and solar power in particular could solve global warming cheaply but here's the rub with wind bankrupting traditional thermal generators-
https://www.citi.io/2016/10/26/are-wind-farms-messing-up-the-electricity-market/
Bear in mind here too that there is a vast hidden cost in the other half of our power bills with the increasing cost of hooking up and managing these widely dispersed and disparate generators and trying to control the resultant voltage and frequency impacts.

Here's a good overview of the problem of ditching those large thermal generators that can readily respond to demand fluctuations-
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uz6xOFWi4A
But apparently the solution is for you all to have your new cheap electric cars hitched up to the grid or some such  :-*

There's no Great Evil conspiracy against consumers within engineering, manufacturing and supply. Just the many tradeoffs incurred to satisfy diverse tastes, priorities and wallets. But first comes all the insatiable Gummint eggsperts, nanny-staters and usual suspects.

Offline 1302toby

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #58 on: September 15, 2017, 06:40:19 PM »
I look after three sites that put Cogen units because they were told electricity was going to sky rocket in price but gas was going to remain stable.. only one site is still using their unit and the others are off as their gas bills went through the roof.

Offline suby

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #59 on: September 15, 2017, 08:49:51 PM »
The political malaise at present is all about the big fib that wind and solar power in particular could solve global warming cheaply but here's the rub with wind bankrupting traditional thermal generators-
https://www.citi.io/2016/10/26/are-wind-farms-messing-up-the-electricity-market/
Bear in mind here too that there is a vast hidden cost in the other half of our power bills with the increasing cost of hooking up and managing these widely dispersed and disparate generators and trying to control the resultant voltage and frequency impacts.

Here's a good overview of the problem of ditching those large thermal generators that can readily respond to demand fluctuations-
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uz6xOFWi4A
But apparently the solution is for you all to have your new cheap electric cars hitched up to the grid or some such  :-*

It's interesting to me that as usual it's not technology or a construction problem its a political problem.

At the end of the day coal simply can't compete with renewable energy. Doesn't mater how you spin it. The pumped water and battery systems can fill the gaps   between grid management, wind, large scale solar, roof to solar and other technologies that will eventually rule.

This is about getting to the destination at the cheapest and most environmental friendly way. The replacement of aging power stations is not going so well despite the advise of the chief  scientist and other experts.  The COALition has to give a good explanation to why?
   
https://www.cleanenergycouncil.org.au/policy-advocacy/electricity-prices.html
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 08:54:58 PM by suby »

Offline tryagain

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #60 on: September 15, 2017, 10:12:39 PM »
At the end of the day coal simply can't compete with renewable energy. Doesn't mater how you spin it. The pumped water and battery systems can fill the gaps   between grid management, wind, large scale solar, roof to solar and other technologies that will eventually rule.

Source?

Offline Metters

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #61 on: September 15, 2017, 11:01:02 PM »
So if I voted Labour or Green or Pink or Sex Party - things would be different?

No it would not be different under the present system.  We have a political system that was never designed for parties.  It was supposed to be for independent candidates representing their electorate with a Senate to review legislation to make sure each State was treated fairly.  It is a long way from that now but until the people wake up and demand we get back to something resembling the original system, we are going to continue on this down hill slide.  There is no sign of that happening at the moment and it won't until people start taking a serious interest in what is going on.
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Offline suby

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #62 on: September 15, 2017, 11:08:38 PM »
Source?

A quick search shows many. The US and other coal producing countries are simply not attractive for investment. The future is happening now.

From the industry:
http://aglblog.com.au/2017/06/coal-cant-compete-with-renewables-in-long-term/

Many places around the world.

It’s dead wrong. But it is consistent:
https://biv.com/article/2017/3/trump-cant-stop-renewable-energy-juggernaut-report/

Time - It Likes Coal More Than Facts:
http://time.com/4916531/donald-trump-rick-perry-coal-report/

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Offline alnjan

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #63 on: September 15, 2017, 11:54:11 PM »
It's interesting to me that as usual it's not technology or a construction problem its a political problem.

At the end of the day coal simply can't compete with renewable energy. Doesn't mater how you spin it. The pumped water and battery systems can fill the gaps   between grid management, wind, large scale solar, roof to solar and other technologies that will eventually rule.

This is about getting to the destination at the cheapest and most environmental friendly way. The replacement of aging power stations is not going so well despite the advise of the chief  scientist and other experts.  The COALition has to give a good explanation to why?
   
https://www.cleanenergycouncil.org.au/policy-advocacy/electricity-prices.html


Eventually it will but not at present.  There is no point living in the future if realistically today the alternative is not as consistently as reliable as the current power station.  Where in any best management practise do you close something that is working and have nothing  that performs as good (preferably better) to replace it with.  You only have to look at South Australia for real time problems.  It may be good that Investment is moving from Coal based power to Renewable Energy sources but where does logic say live in the dark ages for the next unknown time frame until technology and infrastructure have caught up to not just our current demand but future demands for energy. 
Cheers

Al and/or Jan

Offline suby

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #64 on: September 16, 2017, 12:24:48 AM »

Eventually it will but not at present.  There is no point living in the future if realistically today the alternative is not as consistently as reliable as the current power station.  Where in any best management practise do you close something that is working and have nothing  that performs as good (preferably better) to replace it with.  You only have to look at South Australia for real time problems.  It may be good that Investment is moving from Coal based power to Renewable Energy sources but where does logic say live in the dark ages for the next unknown time frame until technology and infrastructure have caught up to not just our current demand but future demands for energy.

Its a management problem. It's relay quite simple, someone forgot to think about the future, or has vested interests in the mining industry.

Australia has many highly skilled smart people that could implement solutions to problems in the future ( next 5 years ) but what pain you feel now is a product of decisions within the last 10 years in my view.

We have the technology and skills to fix our power issues but it takes a few years to develop and build a solutions. You can't magic it. The latest hullabaloo is just someone trying to make money at Australia's expense, that will cost much much more in the long-run. 

The alternate view is to spend on current infrastructure. Thus the current topic is Liddell, and it's reliability.  Liddell apparently is running at about 55% capacity, and unreliable from observed information. The news sources say fixing this could cost billions to extended its life 5 years. 

Given that we need more power in 5 years time to replace Liddell ( according to our government). Until then we will just need to suck it up!   Are you happy?

 
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 01:23:19 AM by suby »

Offline prodigyrf

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #65 on: September 16, 2017, 09:09:09 AM »
It's always the same old story with these unreliables. Don't worry, we'll just wave the magic wand and sprinkle around the fairy dust and all the technological problems will be solved in a few years time, just you wait and see. Meanwhile the Weatherill Govt is installing 9 diesel generators to gulp 80,000 litres of diesel an hour while the world is intent on banning diesel cars, plus a unicorn Tesla battery (look over there folks) and I'm supposed to believe in their fairy dust?  ???
There's no Great Evil conspiracy against consumers within engineering, manufacturing and supply. Just the many tradeoffs incurred to satisfy diverse tastes, priorities and wallets. But first comes all the insatiable Gummint eggsperts, nanny-staters and usual suspects.

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #66 on: September 16, 2017, 09:19:30 AM »
Just what will be achieved by inflicting this on ourselves??
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Offline gronk

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #67 on: September 16, 2017, 09:36:34 AM »

Eventually it will but not at present.  There is no point living in the future if realistically today the alternative is not as consistently as reliable as the current power station.  Where in any best management practise do you close something that is working and have nothing  that performs as good (preferably better) to replace it with.  You only have to look at South Australia for real time problems.  It may be good that Investment is moving from Coal based power to Renewable Energy sources but where does logic say live in the dark ages for the next unknown time frame until technology and infrastructure have caught up to not just our current demand but future demands for energy.

That just about sums it up mate. Everyone seems to conveniently forget about base load power,  which we haven't got anywhere in Australia except for coal and a couple of very small gas and hydro systems. All the other ideas are just that,ideas, and until some are up and running and proven to work, coal is our saviour, much as some don't agree..
We contribute 1% to global emissions, yet we are strangling ourselves to prove a point. Massive investment in renewables comes at a cost .......can we individually afford that cost ?
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Offline edz

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #68 on: September 16, 2017, 10:47:15 AM »
If the clowns in this country keep going in the future we might need someone to hold a few concerts  for us ... Just change that name from Africa to Australia .  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9BNoNFKCBI
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Offline krisandkev

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #70 on: September 16, 2017, 12:58:36 PM »
I think a lot forget that we are a large country with a very small population. Distance is a killer for infrastructure unless you have vast sums of money to build and maintain it.  We don’t have the money, then add in our ever increasing welfare dependant population and we are absolutely crazy not to take advantage of the recourses we have, coal/gas etc. But obviously we need to develop other sustainable technologies for when we run out of coal and gas.  But the day our great leaders at federal and state level went down the privatising track we were stuffed.  :'(   What you and I owned, gone, sold off.   >:(  And the one tool we had to control big companies is lost.  Kevin
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Offline corndog

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #71 on: September 16, 2017, 01:45:40 PM »
Yep. Short term gain for long term pain. Any money that has been received from all 'our' assets being sold is gone, who knows what on. My parents said to me "be prepared to pay for it in the future. Once gone it will be hard to get back". And the list keeps on growing. Take our roads. Managed by overseas countries making billions of $ in tolls. I would rather have us borrow the money and gladly pay the tolls to pay it back.  Anyways I don't want to start to rant.   ;D ;D

Offline alnjan

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #72 on: September 16, 2017, 02:32:21 PM »
Its a management problem. It's relay quite simple, someone forgot to think about the future, or has vested interests in the mining industry.

Australia has many highly skilled smart people that could implement solutions to problems in the future ( next 5 years ) but what pain you feel now is a product of decisions within the last 10 years in my view.

We have the technology and skills to fix our power issues but it takes a few years to develop and build a solutions. You can't magic it. The latest hullabaloo is just someone trying to make money at Australia's expense, that will cost much much more in the long-run. 

The alternate view is to spend on current infrastructure. Thus the current topic is Liddell, and it's reliability.  Liddell apparently is running at about 55% capacity, and unreliable from observed information. The news sources say fixing this could cost billions to extended its life 5 years. 

Given that we need more power in 5 years time to replace Liddell ( according to our government). Until then we will just need to suck it up!   Are you happy?

It is a Management issue.  All we can hope for is the powers that, be between now and then, all make the right choices for the right outcomes.  Plenty of warning has been given about Liddell for the future demands to be met by the time we get there.  Due to the changes and advances in technology especially in recent years it is hard to be too critical of decisions previously made.  Along with the technology the infrastructure and geography is the other challenge for Australia but ones that need to be seriously addressed and be ready for not just 5-10 years but that 10-20 year time frame as well. 

Not just in Power creation and delivery both Nationally and per State but also on the local residential and industrial building.  The technology and availability for buildings to be either fully o r partially self sufficient is there and when included in construction cost are not excessive.   Rather then builders get a tick to say they have done the least amount possible to reduce the carbon foot print it is time to raise the standard to look at buildings being fully self sufficient with it's power needs. 
Cheers

Al and/or Jan

Offline prodigyrf

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #73 on: September 18, 2017, 01:55:11 AM »
More fake news from The Australian today presumably?

"Australians are on track to pay more than $500 million to AGL to fund its flagship solar generators, as the energy giant prepares to shut down its Liddell coal power station, a move that has prompted warnings of a power shortfall that could lead to blackouts and price hikes.
The company has already ­secured $230m in direct grants and is forecast to gain far more under the renewable energy ­target, deepening the political divide on energy policy as the federal government considers cutting ­future aid to make coal more competitive.
The scale of the subsidy is now a key question in the government’s debate on whether to ­embrace a clean energy target, as opponents of the idea challenge AGL and others to prove that wind and solar schemes can work without taxpayer handouts.
Malcolm Turnbull and his cabinet ministers are yet to decide on whether to adopt a clean ­energy target but are unwilling to continue the heavy subsidy, ­putting a priority on more reliable power supplies, including coal and gas.
The two AGL solar farms in western NSW generate a combined 359,000 megawatt hours of electricity, just 4 per cent of the ­capacity of Liddell, but have ­secured more long-term investment than the coal power station under laws that continue the ­renewable subsidy until 2030."

Can't blame the subsidy miners when the fairy dust merchants provide the rules of the game but our national grid is headed for a train wreck. Pumped hydro? South Oz doesn't have any high ground to pump seawater to (we are the driest State in the driest continent remember) and good luck with you Great Dividers, etc getting pumped seawater hydro sites past the Greenies in your neck of the woods. It's like this bozos. The history of mankind's ability to store energy is pitiful apart from pumping water uphill or in the form of calories and as for electrochemical storage, I'd remind you we're still using the same lead-acid battery Henry was plonking in the Model T so go and lift your bonnet and ponder it for a while and get off the drugs.
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Offline gordo350

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #74 on: September 18, 2017, 06:36:10 AM »
.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 07:16:40 AM by gordo350 »
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