End of Lake Eyre Yacht Club

[Bird]

The fundamental flaw in your argument is that if we recreate the ownership and boundaries that existed around the world thousands or even hundreds of years ago most of the countries that now exist, including the sacred cow Israel, would be dismantled.
Think of the world conflict that would create.
Since humans first walked on this earth they have conducted wars over land and associated resources and, as much as most people hate war, they are going to keep happening.
In war some win and some loose and it is about time for a reality check. Sometimes sh1t happens, humans are just not nice.
There is no point in trying to go back and recreate the world the way it was, it just can't happen, and that includes the Aboriginal ownership before Europeans arrived.

Fridge Magnet,

I'm not disputing whether they were here or not.  They obviously were.  However, 200+ years later, does it really matter so much? 

How long can you hold a grudge?  Who's really to blame?  Why does it have to be me or the average taxpayer?  I wasn't even here then and neither were the aborigines alive today.

[Isuzumu]

Ok I started this and would expect that those of you who have submitted to this thread need me to say how I feel about the whole matter.
Firstly I am far from a racists, grew up with and went to school with quite a few of our native Australian, spent quality time with them in Arnhem Land and other places whilst in the Army and respect their culture.
But the problem here is they seem to want to hurt the people that have helped them. I imagine all those people that have sailed Lake Eyre have payed their tax's, which have helped these people, and this is my biggest grip. As tax payers we have not put up to much of  a grievance  about doing this for our native people? One thing I would like to know is there any Midden in this area (Google that please)
Now I need an answer  from those who know more then I.

Why is it now  (in the last 14 years) that they want this land?

I would  like to apologise to anyone I may have offended

[Fridge Magnet]

I sincerely hope that the Lake Eyre yacht club will continue whenever there's water in the lake.

The fundamental flaw in your argument is that if we recreate the ownership and boundaries that existed around the world thousands or even hundreds of years ago most of the countries that now exist, including the sacred cow Israel, would be dismantled.
Think of the world conflict that would create.
Since humans first walked on this earth they have conducted wars over land and associated resources and, as much as most people hate war, they are going to keep happening.
In war some win and some loose and it is about time for a reality check. Sometimes sh1t happens, humans are just not nice.
There is no point in trying to go back and recreate the world the way it was, it just can't happen, and that includes the Aboriginal ownership before Europeans arrived.

Cheers
Parry

A comparison between South Australia in 2012 and Israel in 1948 is fundamentally flawed. Exercising your rights under the law of the land is 'fundamentally' different to the British forcibly establishing a Jewish state in Palestine.

Fridge Magnet,

I'm not disputing whether they were here or not.  They obviously were.  However, 200+ years later, does it really matter so much? 

How long can you hold a grudge?  Who's really to blame?  Why does it have to be me or the average taxpayer?  I wasn't even here then and neither were the aborigines alive today.

I guess it's the way wars begin ... long memories and grudge holding ... and we all know how wars end.  Neither side is any better off.

Kit_e

I don't think it's a grudge thing Kit_e. I certainly hear what you're saying though. I just think that as a rich, first world nation we're well placed to cooperate with and understand each other. Armed conflict is unlikely.

Ok I started this and would expect that those of you who have submitted to this thread need me to say how I feel about the whole matter.
Firstly I am far from a racists, grew up with and went to school with quite a few of our native Australian, spent quality time with them in Arnhem Land and other places whilst in the Army and respect their culture.
But the problem here is they seem to want to hurt the people that have helped them. I imagine all those people that have sailed Lake Eyre have payed their tax's, which have helped these people, and this is my biggest grip. As tax payers we have not put up to much of  a grievance  about doing this for our native people? One thing I would like to know is there any Midden in this area (Google that please)
Now I need an answer  from those who know more then I.

Why is it now  (in the last 14 years) that they want this land?

I would  like to apologise to anyone I may have offended

The ATO is not racist, sexist or homophobic, we all contribute to a pool of money that funds schools, roads, pensions, cab charges, prostitutes etc.

The Mabo ruling was only made 20 years ago, this doesn't mean that people don't want some type of acknowledgement that they existed before that.

I don't want to create an issue about any of these things, just registering my own opinion for posterity. The great thing about getting out there in a CT is that you meet all sorts of people with a diversity of views. I know that that a few of the people who have helped me out the most via pm on this forum probably wouldn't agree with my views on a number of issues. I look forward  to meeting everyone around a camp fire, the greatest leveler there is.

FM

       

[briann532]

I think I can truly speak as non racist since I grew up in a settlement in central Africa, educated in Rhodesia / Zimbabwe, higher educated in York England, trained in Saudi Arabia, then settle in Australia.
My parents and their parents were from all corners of the world.
Multicultiral is in my blood.

I still however, despite years of travel, experience and understanding.................................
Can figure out how punishing generations of people who's past forefather did what is now socially unnacceptable, can be held accountable for what we had no say / choice in and pay the consequences for what ultimately brings no resolution to the situation.

I am taking an ultimate long shot here, but what about common sense??

Sure the indiginous people have a cultural heritage in the area, but so do the newer australians.

To try to explain what I mean........
300 years ago and more they had their cultural experience in the area.
50 years ago white man had theirs.
Yes they are different, but they still relate to heritage.

I had a childhood some 40 years ago where I did things. Accepted and agreed.
But does this mean my childrens heritage, albeit 7 years old does not count???

Can we not accept that they are part of it too.
Yes I agree, not as long, still part of it.

When is there going to be a time that we can agree to respect the culture and recognize it, but not make it the be all and end all and nothign else matters???
Its a stepping in stone in history.

Mark it, respect it, and move on.

The Lake Eyre Yacht club has as much right to cultural history as the indigienous folk.
Accept it, recognize it, and move on in unity.

We have to share the planet, lets try to make it as pleasant as possible.

Brian

[Big Nath]

Mark it, respect it, and move on.

The Lake Eyre Yacht club has as much right to cultural history as the indigienous folk.
Accept it, recognize it, and move on in unity.

We have to share the planet, lets try to make it as pleasant as possible.

Brian

X2. im sure they were here first, however they cant of been everywhere?? can they??

Cheers!!

[hargs]

"The Lake Eyre Yacht club has as much right to cultural history as the indigienous folk.
Accept it, recognize it, and move on in unity."
I have copied that quote briann532, and thought about it .....................

Indigienous folk...............living their life for thousands of years.........
Yacht Club...........sailing boats.........



But lets hope that the people that are involved in this on the ground up there are wise and have the ability to use this as a show case as to how both cultural needs can be meet.

[Kalebjarrod]

It's a pretty big area, I'm sure they could say no more yacht clubs, only what's here now, you keep that 1arce spot for your club, sail when you want

We run a muck over the other tens of thousands of acres, respect us we will respect you

Help us we will help you

I think it was a lesson on sesame street?.. Sharing maybe?...

[hargs]

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm  just saw its National Reconciliation Week.

[GU_Thomo]

A comparison between South Australia in 2012 and Israel in 1948 is fundamentally flawed. Exercising your rights under the law of the land is 'fundamentally' different to the British forcibly establishing a Jewish state in Palestine.

Wow that is a convenient missreading of my comments.
Where did I compare the creation of the Jewish state to exercising rights under law in SA 2012?

I could have used any of hundreds of countries that exist today as examples of how "invasions" or wars have changed the boundaries and ownership of the world.
I am not arguing that the Native Title Claim has not been done according to the law.
I am saying that we have a bad law and that we should not be trying to go back to pre European arrival in Australia.
If you believe that the land was taken from these people by an "invasion" you may be right but, they lost sh1t happens and the world is a very different place now.
My Grandfather had many, many acres of central Sydney land/buildings resumed during the second world war and was paid virtually nothing for it.
This land has not changed since resumption, do his present day family have the right to get the land back?
Of course they don't as it was "legally" taken, remember all land taken from the aboriginals was also "legally" taken.

Cheers
Parry

[Big Nath]

its all about the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

eventually there will be questions as to where the millions are going.

Cheers!!

[ozbogwam]

What millions, what $$$$$$?

[Kit_e_kat9]

I don't think it's a grudge thing Kit_e. I certainly hear what you're saying though. I just think that as a rich, first world nation we're well placed to cooperate with and understand each other. Armed conflict is unlikely.

I look forward  to meeting everyone around a camp fire, the greatest leveler there is.

FM

I was schooled and lived out near "Curgon", where a community exists a few miles from town.  Loved my life out there greatly and wouldn't change a thing.  Except maybe to have Gordie Langton selected to rep Qld (union) rather than Steve Renoulf ... but never mind that.  To a very few natives, I was a whitey land stealing bi-arch (I'm actually a heinz 57 variety, but I guess they assumed), but to the vast majority, I was just another girl at school and worthy of friendship ... there are always a few that spoil it for the many ... no matter the skin colour.

Realising that armed "war" is unlikely in this country, I thought I might refine my thoughts that way.  War ... grudge ... expectations ... all different things ... but linked still.  If you hold a grudge, expect that you deserve certain things ... you hold war in your heart.  It might not be "armed", but verbal is still war.  Fighting those that live in your street is war (barking dogs, overhanging tree, etc).  Expecting that the world owes you something is war (you aren't helping anyone least of all yourself). 

So, Neither side is any better off. 

Kit_e

P.S.  Yep, a campfire sounds ideal with a few drinks and much laughing ... best thing in life!

[BigJules]

I would be hugely disappointed if the club could not continue.

Part of reconciliation is two way give and take.

[Estelle]

Storm in a teacup.

Easy enough to change the laws again when the Pollies feel like it.

How many members of this club? How often do they sail? OK, not the point.

Not enough info as to what the Title Holders will be happy with. They probably don't know themselves at this point. 14 years of legal battles.

[Commodore Bob]

The Lake Eyre Yacht Club is far from dead. In fact it is growing in members and strength daily and showing signs of winning this battle.

The Arabunna peoples are suffering from the misconception that they now own Lake Eyre National Park. This park is part of the public estate. It belongs to all Australians of all cultures in a multicultural society and must be shared. The judgement gave the Arabunna a NON exclusive right. They have been conned by the Govt and their lawyer.

MySwag.orgmembers may not be aware of why this is all happening. Hint - the expansion of BHP's uranium mine at Olympic Dam (Roxby Downs).

Unfortunately stupid politicians in SA, despite knowing otherwise have hoodwinked the Arabunna into excepting Lake Eyre for their approval of the mine.

However a thorn exists in the side of both these parties in the form of the Lake Eyre Yacht Club. We're a determined bunch of old farts who aren't going to be pushed around by anyone. Particularly when it concerns individual rights that have been around since the year dot.

There exists a legal principle called the public trust doctrine (a common law right) which has assured "the people" access to navigable waterways for over 2 thousand years. There have been decisions already by federal courts that native title cannot override common law rights because it would destroy our legal system.

You may ask how is Lake Eyre a navigable waterway? Well safety regulations contained within the SA Harbors and Navigation Act list the safety requirements required for boating on Lake Eyre!!! The truth is the water is no longer under the control of DENR but the Dept of Transport. For the Arabunna to say they are concerned for our safety is the biggest joke ever and none of their business. Our members have circumnavigated the world, regularly sail to Antarctica and have been in Sydney Hobart Races. If you ever got in to trouble on Lake Eyre you just get out and walk.

The Vice Commodore and I proved our case last year when, after being threatened with a $50K fine by the minister of Aboriginal Affairs Grace Portolesi, we enjoyed a pleasant week sailing on the Lake. Guess what happened? Well six months later I was sent a petty little fine from DENR which I refused to pay (I bet they said "Bugger") and asked for the matter to go to Court. Seven months later and well over 12 months since the alleged offence I haven't heard anything. They not only lie but are gutless. The week before her announcement one of her staff confirmed that neither native title nor aboriginal heritage issues can stop us from boating - but could we please meet (ie come to a financial arrangement) with them. Like hell.

We are still fighting the matter - just not as publicly. Of course every article in last weeks press mentioned our plight. We thank them for the publicity.

The latest development (rumour only at this stage) is that the Arabunna have now asked for Govt legislation to ban boating. We would expect tremendous public anger with this as it is setting a precedent by which your local waterway, park, even footy oval could be made out of bounds to European culture (unless you pay for a guided tour). It would also be taken to the High Court by us.

If my culture similarly impinged on the rights of the Arabunna to enter and recreate in/on Lake Eyre we would be called racist.

Cheers,
Commodore Bob
Lake Eyre Yacht Club

[Kit_e_kat9]

Hello and Welcome Commodore Bob,

I hope (for both our sakes) that I can enjoy the water near your yacht club in the future.  I'm no yachty, but I know how to paddle a canoe.  I'm hoping to be out that way when it fills again ... next time ... when do you think that might be?  Is camping allowed on your lawn?

Kit_e

[BigJules]

Thanks for giving us the clubs position Bob.

[Big Nath]

What millions, what $$$$$$?

All of this stuff has an under lying issue relating to money. who is willing to pay what to use it.


Welcome Commodore bob my sticker and stubbie holder arrived today.....Thanks :-)

[Desert lover]

Go Commodore Bob!   Sailors are an optomistic bunch - our Club went through 12 years of drought and hung in through the membership love of sailing and commraderie.  Then our lake filled, went to 118% or something, over the second spillway and flooded everything downstream - abundance.  So we watch with interest how it all pans out for you.  We will visit one day and have a sail on the magnificent Lake Eyre! 
Fair winds and smooth seas to you
Sue

[Bird]

The latest development (rumour only at this stage) is that the Arabunna have now asked for Govt legislation to ban boating

When logic, votes and mining $$$ come into it Australia wide, I cant see you winning - no matter how many people stomp their feet and hold their breath. Minorities rule this country. Pathetic as it is.

I 1000000% hope you do, I'll be around there in September....

[GU_Thomo]

Good on you Commodore Bob.
You have my support.
When it is sorted we will be back sailing on Lake Eyre again.

Cheers
Parry

[Garry H]

Welcome Commodore Bob,
good to see that this has got some factual input,
just goes to show how wide this forum is read,
I enjoyed my last trip your direction (and beyond) and had the pleasure to drop my photos from a helicopter flight to you for help with your mapping in the future, just hope that you will be alowed to use your maps "on the water" in the future
cheers

[hargs]

Great to get the info from the horses mouth .......thanks

[Cloud Basher]

If anyone thinks this is about anything other than money then you are very very naive.  Aboriginal land rights are big business.  Both for the native title holder, the government and the associated corporations and lawyers set up to administer them.  Sure, some aboriginals do genuinely want their own areas where they can live like they want to, but in the end it all comes down to the mighty dollar.

There is huge issues at Olympic Dam and the mining rights within the Woomera Prohibited Area.  Have a read of the papers, look through the actual guff to what is not being written.  Land claims everywhere, sacred sites being found all the time that just "happen" to coincide with areas where mining is proposed.  The local title holder was asked for a list of all sacred areas within WPA.  He provided them and agreed that there were no further areas.  No all of a sudden they have been "found". WHY?  Because money is involved.

Good luck to the Lake Eyre Yacht Club.  I believe you will be able to sail forever more on Lake Eyre.  Might cost a bit in fighting it, but Australians' are no longer as scared of native title as we used to be around the time of Mabo.  We have realised, as have the aborigines, that access is simply a matter of the right amount of dollars and not completely banning people.  Have a look at nearly all places where access was prohibited by native title owners in the last 20 years.  The vast majority of them have now been opened up - albeit at a cost - but access is still available.

Funny thing is I am very good friends with a native title holder and his family down in Victoria.  He freely admits to me it is all about money and for the future of his kids and his children's children.  I see absolutely nothing wrong with this if I had something that people wanted then I would "sell" it as well. As long as the costs are reasonable then good on him I say.  I think in the future you will see access to areas such as the Calvert Ranges off the CSR and numerous other areas.  Eventually we will be able to travel most of this country once again, but it will cost us.  Don't forget that we as a modern country charge for everything!  Including CO2 which is NOT a pollutant, but that is a whole different issue   If it can be charged for, if someone can make a dollar out of it then it will happen.  We, through being made to feel guilty as a society (not individuals) have given the aborigines the ability to turn this issue into a business and make money out of it.  I am sure most people here would do the same in the same circumstance if you are honest with yourselves.

Anyway just thought I would throw my two cents in.  As stated it WILL end up costing the Lake Eyre Yacht Club money both in Legal fees and maybe in an agreement with the local title holders, just to come to an agreement to ensure access to this great Aussie and indeed worldwide Icon (at least in the Yachting world!)

Cheers
CB

[hargs]

Reconciliation is the looser in all this too , ...............................................