Author Topic: Power and gas is to expensive.  (Read 26341 times)

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Offline GeoffA

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #300 on: June 29, 2018, 06:18:26 AM »
When did batteries become a green option?
Consider the raw materials, manufacture, and disposal.
They will be the next environmental disaster....
« Last Edit: June 29, 2018, 06:33:49 AM by GeoffA »
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Offline Bird

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #301 on: June 29, 2018, 08:49:28 AM »
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Offline tryagain

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #302 on: June 29, 2018, 11:39:46 AM »
The subsidies for coal and gas generation is very hard to find. A lot of politics involved (they fund many politicians political campaigns) and very difficult to accurately calculate as they range from mining the source fuel all (you can't unlink them, without the mining the coal generation wouldn't occur) the way through to the dumping of waste at the end. There are also many direct and indirect costs which are not born by the generation company during the life of the plant, environmental being just one of them.
They aren't really that hard to quantify, it's not like the government have secret accounts that they use to funnel billions the way of the mining companies, just about all advocates of renewables point to the cost of subsidies to mining as a whole and conflate that with the cost of mining for electricity generation, even then the "subsidies" they mention are generally things like the fuel tax credit which isn't mining specific, it applies to all business equally. The reason that they are "hard to find" is that they don't exist in the way many try to insinuate, what does exist is pretty easy to quantify, just pales into insignificance in comparison to renewables. Whether that cost is justified on environmental grounds etc is a different question.

There are heaps of these graphs around. Working out what data is used is more difficult. But they all point to the same thing... as the cost manufacture, installation and maintenance of renewable stations are dropping, coal is very quickly becoming unattractive financially

Renewables (both with and without storage) vs existing coal, existing coal is cheaper
Renewables vs new coal, renewables are probably cheaper.
Renewables with storage vs new coal, new coal is probably cheaper.

The cost of existing renewables and storage continue to fall so that will likely change as time goes by. So yes building new coal-fired power is becoming less financially viable, keeping existing coal-fired power plants online though is still the cheapest form of non-intermittent supply by a fair bit.

Yes and no. They have a large amount of data now to use for predictions. But future aside, we are pretty much at that crossover point now. Storage is also dropping really fast and the battery tech is also getting much better. Give it 5 or so years and battery storage will be quite affordable even for householders. I'm an electronics engineer (Electrical/Electronics, majoring in Electronics) and in my field I have seen many times really expensive tech plummet in price very quickly once it becomes established.

You only have to look at one of your linked articles to see that they got the predicted increase in electricity demand very wrong, even though it would have been based on a large amount of data. I am not saying it definitely will be wrong, just that the further out they are predicting the greater the uncertainty.

No doubt that it will continue to fall, especially due to government incentives for renewables and regulatory impositions for coal.
I think the underlying question is predominantly a "values" one, Advocates of renewables say we need to do our bit to reduce the environmental impact of climate change or the cost will be borne by future generations, detractors say it's virtue signaling that hurts those who can least afford it and that any changes that we make here in Australia will have negligible difference in the global context.



Offline Cruiser 105Tvan

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #303 on: June 29, 2018, 01:25:54 PM »
It's not just the Batteries that'll be a problem when they collapse later in their service life.
Have a look at the components in Solar panels, and how they do humans a World of good.
Just Like Uranium and Power plants.  How do you neutralize Uranium at the end of its useful life.
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Offline Bird

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #304 on: June 29, 2018, 01:32:21 PM »
It's not just the Batteries that'll be a problem when they collapse later in their service life.
Have a look at the components in Solar panels, and how they do humans a World of good.
Just Like Uranium and Power plants.  How do you neutralize Uranium at the end of its useful life.
8) 8) 8) Parrrrrrrrrrrrty!
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Offline Cruiser 105Tvan

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #305 on: June 29, 2018, 01:34:50 PM »
8) 8) 8) Parrrrrrrrrrrrty!


That's how you spread it, and I'm sure there'll be someone who thinks it's a great idea.
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Offline Bird

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #306 on: June 29, 2018, 02:17:25 PM »
That's how you spread it, and I'm sure there'll be someone who thinks it's a great idea.
launch it into space.
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Offline Cruiser 105Tvan

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #307 on: June 29, 2018, 02:53:47 PM »
I think it might be an idea for a rocket load to collide with the sun.
But that Uranium isn't light.  So getting it into a path that does it would be horrendously expensive.
But you never know what it could cause, if you did.

I still think that if you can't get rid of it safely, you shouldn't have used it in the first place.
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Offline Pete79

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #308 on: July 04, 2018, 10:52:41 PM »
I got an email from my electricity supplier a little while ago saying my power bills are going down from this month, and apparently I’m not alone.

This news had me scratching my head for a while, apparently because of those evil renewables getting around destroying economies all around the world price reductions are physically impossible.

But I think I’m finally working out how this power stuff works....

When prices go up it’s the evil renewables fault.
When prices go down it’s because of good government policies.

Got it. ;)

Now I’ve just got to work out how after you sign a binding global agreement it somehow becomes and aspirational target when you’re no longer PM....

Offline GeoffA

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #309 on: July 05, 2018, 06:06:31 AM »
....how much will the price drop, and for how long?

It was always an aspirational target, but it somehow morphed.

How much would global warming drop if AUS were to reduce its emissions to zero?
Still waiting for a number on that one.....anyone?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 06:14:46 AM by GeoffA »
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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #310 on: July 05, 2018, 06:29:06 AM »
How much would global warming drop if AUS were to reduce its emissions to zero?


All it takes is one big bushfire and that target is out the window.

On another note, received the first gas bill since the new central heater was installed. We've been able to drop the temp to 20 from 22, missus likes it warm, and we've left it on all winter, as per the installers suggestion. Bill has dropped 20% which I was happy with.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 06:30:45 AM by D4D »
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Offline gronk

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #311 on: July 05, 2018, 06:43:31 AM »

All it takes is one big bushfire and that target is out the window.

On another note, received the first gas bill since the new central heater was installed. We've been able to drop the temp to 20 from 22, missus likes it warm, and we've left it on all winter, as per the installers suggestion. Bill has dropped 20% which I was happy with.

But if a few of you Mexicans moved north where you don't need heaters, how much would you save yourself and the environment  !!!  ;D
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Offline paceman

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #312 on: July 05, 2018, 07:11:41 AM »
This news had me scratching my head for a while, apparently because of those evil renewables getting around destroying economies all around the world price reductions are physically impossible.

When prices go up it’s the evil renewables fault.

where in this conversation does anyone say that the renewables themselves are 'evil'?

anyone with half a brain would agree that renewables, as an idea and as a solution, are great, in a vacuum...

it's the other stuff hanging off renewables (subsidies, government interference, sanctimonious attitudes, etc) that people hate...

do i hate renewables? of course not.  i hate the other rubbish that comes along with it.

i, and probably everyone else, couldn't give a rats where my power comes from, as long as it is cheap, plentiful and reliable, which, currently, fossil fuels provide all three. 

renewables, at this point, are none of those things.  that's not to say they won't get there, but until they do, fossil fuels are a reality.

the stance taken by extremists, saying that we must turn off coal NOW, is dangerous and misguided.  we can get to where they want us to go, it will just take time.



« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 07:25:45 AM by paceman »

Offline Pete79

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #313 on: July 05, 2018, 07:40:13 AM »
....how much will the price drop, and for how long?

4% this month.
Bit like asking when fuel prices will start dropping or when your housing values in Melbourne and Sydney will stop dropping... ;)



where in this conversation does anyone say that the renewables themselves are 'evil'?
Nope their clearly evil.
They’ve been causing mass starvation, shutting down whole states, bankrupting countries all over the world and stealing first born children from what I’ve been reading..... ;D

















* Sarcasm gets lost around here.

Offline paceman

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #314 on: July 12, 2018, 07:53:10 AM »
this makes for very interesting reading...

https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/accc-releases-blueprint-to-reduce-electricity-prices

a couple of interesting bits from the executive summary (emphasis mine):

Quote
Most state governments put in place excessively generous solar feed-in tariff schemes with a view to
encouraging consumers to install solar photovoltaic (PV) systems. Under these schemes, the subsidy
paid to consumers for the energy produced by their systems outweighed, by many multiples, the value
of that energy
. Take up of the schemes exceeded all expectations, in part due to dramatic declines
in solar PV installation costs. The substantial cost of the schemes continues to be spread across all
electricity users
.

Quote
Policies associated with the objective of reducing carbon emissions have been problematic. Australia
has committed, through international treaties, to reduce its carbon emissions. The electricity sector
has, understandably, been a key focus for these efforts given the historically carbon-intensive nature of
electricity generation. However, various policy failures here have hurt consumers.
As the Finkel review identified, there has been a failure to facilitate an orderly transition from
carbon-intensive generation technologies to cleaner ones
. This is highlighted by the relatively sudden
decisions by the owners of the Northern and Hazelwood power stations to close those plants. The short
notice of closure of these plants did not enable the market to respond to expected shortfalls in capacity
with adequate and timely investment.


executive summary link below:

https://www.accc.gov.au/system/files/Retail%20Electricity%20Pricing%20Inquiry%E2%80%94Final%20Report%20June%202018_Exec%20summary.pdf


Offline Pete79

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #315 on: August 09, 2018, 02:09:40 PM »
“Profit at AGL, Australia's largest electricity generator, have surged by 194% to $1.59 billion as power bills to consumers keep rising.

Underlying profit after tax was up 28% to $1.023 billion, in the upper half of AGL’s guidance range, reflecting strong earnings growth in Wholesale Markets.

CEO Andy Vesey says the result reflects the benefits of multibillion-dollar investments in electricity generation, meaning strong returns from higher wholesale electricity prices. “This increase in prices in the broader electricity market has mostly been a result of the abrupt closure of non-AGL power stations such as Hazelwood in 2017 and Northern in 2016 and higher input costs for coal and gas," he says.
“In this environment, we recognise that many Australian households are facing cost-of-living pressures because of the higher energy bills that have resulted from higher market prices.”


Yes you did read that right.
A power company’s profits are up 194%.

Poor guys, if only they’d raised their prices to consumers a touch more they could have cracked 200%. The CEO must be devastated with missing out on that bit of his bonus....

Offline Bird

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #316 on: August 09, 2018, 02:40:21 PM »
Quote from: Pete79
Poor guys, if only they’d raised their prices to consumers a touch more they could have cracked 200%. The CEO must be devastated with missing out on that bit of his bonus....
someones going to lose their job over this obvious oversight
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Online corndog

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #317 on: August 09, 2018, 06:43:23 PM »
I've been saying for a long time, Bugger the Royal Commission into the banks. It should be into the banks, petrol, insurance, power, telecommunications, the big business accounting firms, and scare the s**t out of the rest of them Royal Commission.

Offline briann532

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #318 on: August 09, 2018, 07:50:22 PM »
When did batteries become a green option?
Consider the raw materials, manufacture, and disposal.
They will be the next environmental disaster....

And we have a winner...……….  ;D ;D ;D

You would need to own your Prius for 800 years before it even came close to being carbon neutral compared to a hilux.

Don't believe me?
Yes I did the maths for a thesis I worked on.... :'( :'( :'(
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Offline Paddler Ed

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #319 on: August 09, 2018, 08:01:42 PM »
And we have a winner...……….  ;D ;D ;D

You would need to own your Prius for 800 years before it even came close to being carbon neutral compared to a hilux.

Don't believe me?
Yes I did the maths for a thesis I worked on.... :'( :'( :'(

I spoke with someone a few years ago at a conference on sustainability, and we were talking about vehicles; I raised that my old 4Runner whilst not great on headline fuel economy, it was at about 270,000km at the time, was averaging about 11/100km... the guy I was talking to had a Honda Civic hybrid that was dropping battery power at a much younger age as the battery pack was dying off - the result was his fuel economy was heading rapidly towards mine...

People wonder why I run my 26 year old 4Runner (petrol), 40 year old Land Cruiser (diesel) and 27 year old Yamaha XT600.... Yep, they're all well and truly on their way to being lower impact than a pious Prius... Great piece from CAR in the UK about this as well...
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Offline glenm64

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #320 on: August 09, 2018, 09:33:57 PM »


And we have a winner...……….  ;D ;D ;D

You would need to own your Prius for 800 years before it even came close to being carbon neutral compared to a hilux.

Don't believe me?
Yes I did the maths for a thesis I worked on.... :'( :'( :'(

You telling me Mr Tesla is all smoke and mirrors?


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Offline Cruiser 105Tvan

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #321 on: August 09, 2018, 10:44:29 PM »

You telling me Mr Tesla is all smoke and mirrors?


Cheers Glen

They all focus on where the recharging electricity comes from, not where this rotting pile of sophistication is going to end up.
Of course Tesla is smoke and mirrors, So is Bill Gates and heap of others, including that Twitter junkie in the white house.
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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #322 on: August 10, 2018, 07:09:54 PM »
Nearly $1.6 billion profit. We really are mugs.

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #323 on: August 10, 2018, 08:06:35 PM »
Nearly $1.6 billion profit. We really are mugs.
what real choice is there?? Remember - the politicians told us privatization will save us money. They wouldnt lie would they?
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Offline Cruiser 105Tvan

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #324 on: August 10, 2018, 09:49:46 PM »
what real choice is there?? Remember - the politicians told us privatization will save us money. They wouldnt lie would they?
Every one knows how to tell if a politician is lying don't they?
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