Author Topic: Any truth in this? (Read 40838 times)

Suncruise · « **Reply #25 on:** August 07, 2014, 04:35:34 PM »

I get it now

The break strength of the shackles must rated at 1.5 times ATM.

Break strength is 6 times working load limit (WLL) which is stamped on the shackle.

Therefore is my case the shackles have a combined 12 tonne break strength and are legal

Jeepers Creepers · « **Reply #26 on:** August 07, 2014, 04:36:59 PM »

Its highly likely to be true.

They blitzed covers for loads a while back, booking every tinnie, box trailer, ute, you name it, they booked 'em.

So much so, i'll change my shackle in the morning before setting off to work.

The buggers come to here every few weeks, rape and pillage then go.

Ratbag · « **Reply #27 on:** August 07, 2014, 04:39:08 PM »

And just BTW for the legally inclined, how many guessed that this regulation appears to breach the provisions of s.92 of the Oz Commonwealth Constitution?

Basically " ... imposition of ... trade, commerce and intercourse between States shall be absolutely free."

By requiring separate registration/insurance provisions for Interstate vehicles and their trailers ...

Just a thought ...

.

Ratbag · « **Reply #28 on:** August 07, 2014, 04:57:14 PM »

Quote from: Suncruise on August 07, 2014, 04:35:34 PM

I get it now

The break strength of the shackles must rated at 1.5 times ATM.

Break strength is 6 times working load limit (WLL) which is stamped on the shackle.

Therefore is my case the shackles have a combined 12 tonne break strength and are legal

Don't get confused between Breaking Strain (BS), Working Load Limit (WLL) and Safe Working Load (SWL).

The Wikipedia article here does not appear to be accurate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_load_limit

as it does not adequately differentiate between a rolling load (usually defined as the WLL) and dead (vertical) lift load (SWL).

My creeper winch has a WLL of 2,400 Kgs and a SWL of 1,600 Kgs, for example. It has a shear pin to ensure that the BS is limited to the weakest part of the device.

Suncruise · « **Reply #29 on:** August 07, 2014, 05:05:26 PM »

This is from the above linked Safe Towing Guide, Transport and Main Roads, August 2014.

Note:
• Rated bolts, chain shackles or other suitable fittings (i.e. hammerlocks) may be used as devices for
connection on safety chains providing the break load limit of the device is at least 1.5 times greater
than the ATM of the trailer
• Generally, the break load limit of a rated shackle will be six times greater than its work load limit.
• Pin diameter of shackle will be greater than the diameter of the main shackle body.
• Same size shackles of different quality grades will have a different WLL (i.e. 6mm “S” grade shackle
has a greater WLL than a 6mm “M” grade shackle

gordo350 · « **Reply #30 on:** August 07, 2014, 05:32:56 PM »

Quote from: ddr on August 07, 2014, 03:12:00 PM

I still cant see in the QLD document where it says that a rated shackle must be used.
It gives some recommendations, some examples, but there is no mention of the law where you MUST use a rated shackle.
Even the VSB doesn't go into specifics on the shackle. It just states that the shackle should be strong enough to handle the load.

The trouble starts when the coroner asks you how you knew the shackle would handle the load if it is not stamped

Ratbag · « **Reply #31 on:** August 07, 2014, 06:05:16 PM »

Quote from: gordo350 on August 07, 2014, 05:32:56 PM

The trouble starts when the coroner asks you how you knew the shackle would handle the load if it is not stamped

It doesn't actually.

The answer is really simple:

"Your Worship (or whatever Grand Title they apply to themselves these days ... ), when the relevant document at Page seven under the heading of "Safety Chain Connections (Shackles, Pins or Bolts)" states that the department " ... recommends ... ", am I to take it that this has somehow magically become law without the relevant recommendation being gazetted?".

I also note the following:

1) At p.4 of the relevant document it lists the legal requirements, and nowhere in this list does it mention either safety chains or shackles or such like; and

2) That this document appears to make almost all trailers with safety chains on the road unlawful, or attempts to do so, by requiring that the safety chains are marked in accordance with the relevant Australian Standards. Where has this requirement been gazetted? Even the chain in my lifting block and tackle was not so marked ...

While I do not disagree with the intent of the document, it is seriously flawed at both practical and legal levels, IMNSHO.

gordo350 · « **Reply #32 on:** August 07, 2014, 06:11:37 PM »

easy for you to say:)

Ratbag · « **Reply #33 on:** August 07, 2014, 06:19:38 PM »

^ That one is so simple I didn't even need to refer it to any of my lawyers ...

The document speaks for itself. Read the actual "Related documents and links" on p.12.

The fact that the relevant Australian Standard "AS 4177 Safety Chains" is not a published public document, prima facie excludes it from having legal effect.

The relevant VSBs and ADRs and "Load Restraint Guide" are all publicly available documents.

Punitive measures/legislation have no application whatsoever until such time as they are published in the relevant Government Gazette.

GeoffA · « **Reply #34 on:** August 07, 2014, 06:31:49 PM »

Quote from: Jakster1 on August 07, 2014, 01:36:08 PM

http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/Safety/Vehicle%20standards%20and%20modifications/Loads%20and%20towing/Safe%20towing/Safe_towing_guide.pdf

Page 7 & 8 spell it out

In that document, rated shackles are not mandatory, just a recommendation........

Symon · « **Reply #35 on:** August 07, 2014, 08:50:53 PM »

Quote from: Ratbag on August 07, 2014, 06:19:38 PM

The fact that the relevant Australian Standard "AS 4177 Safety Chains" is not a published public document, prima facie excludes it from having legal effect

Rubbish. A standard does not need to be freely available for it to be legally enforceable. If the standard is prescribed in legislation then compliance with it becomes mandatory. In this case AS 4177 is referenced by the ADR, which is prescribed in legislation, so compliance with the standard is mandatory.

No different to AS 3000 or any other standard that is prescribed in legislation.

CRW · « **Reply #36 on:** August 07, 2014, 08:58:03 PM »

Quote from: Symon on August 07, 2014, 08:50:53 PM

Rubbish. A standard does not need to be freely available for it to be legally enforceable. If the standard is prescribed in legislation then compliance with it becomes mandatory. In this case AS 4177 is referenced by the ADR, which is prescribed in legislation, so compliance with the standard is mandatory.

No different to AS 3000 or any other standard that is prescribed in legislation.

It is fact, that if you use any equipment or anything else that can be regulated, it is your responsibility as the end user to know, or should be expected to know of the requirements i.e. standards or regulations. You need to take the initiative and find out for your self, and with google it's so easy

Cheers
Carl
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

achjimmy · « **Reply #37 on:** August 07, 2014, 09:06:13 PM »

Quote from: DaveR on August 07, 2014, 02:16:01 PM

PS
When a link is welded, the chain is no longer rated. The alternative is a secured eye and a hammer lock to join the chain to the trailer.

And we have a winner.

Total wank of a rule while ever we keep welding chain to chassis.

Mace · « **Reply #38 on:** August 07, 2014, 09:08:20 PM »

All Standards are freely available, but you may have to pay for them!

I'm lucky, my employer subscribes to SAIGLOBAL. They cost us nothing.

Symon is correct, it's been discussed here before. Standards are there, some are referenced in legislation, others are called into law by the courts. Some have not been called into law yet, but if facing a magistrate I'd rather know I had complied with a standard than ignored it.

So, someone in QLD should try their luck in courts with one of these fines.

Good luck.

bluejay · « **Reply #39 on:** August 07, 2014, 09:35:43 PM »

Rat bag come to qld and do a test case for us so we can see what his lord ship concludes

Landyline · « **Reply #40 on:** August 07, 2014, 09:58:46 PM »

So I just checked my camper and the chain looks very up to the job but isn't stamped with a rating. The bow shackle is rated to 1t WLL. This a 750kg ATM camper trailer.

However my thoughts revolve around how the chain gets attached to the trailer. Mine has a rod welded under and between the a frame behind the hitch which passes through the first chain link.
What good is rating things if the attachment isn't rated?
I assume the towbar attachment point is rated but never looked into it.

I'm going to look into this tomorrow. Maybe get some rated chain, higher rated shackle and a hammer lock.

Fairly cheap peace of mind and compliance really.

Ratbag · « **Reply #41 on:** August 07, 2014, 10:14:30 PM »

Quote from: bluejay on August 07, 2014, 09:35:43 PM

Rat bag come to qld and do a test case for us so we can see what his lord ship concludes

I'll be there in about a month.

From my Batphone

Jasman · « **Reply #42 on:** August 07, 2014, 11:01:06 PM »

Just went out and checked the Jayco and unfortunately the only stamp on the shackle says "Hayman Reece", I would assume being made by them they would be to spec but I guess that doesn't really matter!

Anyone know where's a good spot to source these shackles? I checked my local supercheap and repco today and had no luck.

Bad Scott · « **Reply #43 on:** August 07, 2014, 11:57:01 PM »

Quote from: Jasman on August 07, 2014, 11:01:06 PM

Just went out and checked the Jayco and unfortunately the only stamp on the shackle says "Hayman Reece", I would assume being made by them they would be to spec but I guess that doesn't really matter!

Anyone know where's a good spot to source these shackles? I checked my local supercheap and repco today and had no luck.

Bolt company, Some tool shops

GGV8Cruza · « **Reply #44 on:** August 08, 2014, 05:56:11 AM »

Quote from: Jasman on August 07, 2014, 11:01:06 PM

Anyone know where's a good spot to source these shackles? I checked my local supercheap and repco today and had no luck.

I picked up my last four from ARB and they were around the $5 mark for each, pretty cheap for something that may hold back disaster

GG

Aaron Schubert · « **Reply #45 on:** August 08, 2014, 07:58:28 AM »

Any lifting company will sell them, or mining sales. Bullivants, Blackwoods, Atom Supply, Robertsons lifting and rigging etc

They shouldn't be more than a few bucks each

Aaron

DaveR · « **Reply #46 on:** August 08, 2014, 09:42:00 AM »

Try the local Nut and Bolt specialist also, some of these guys have rigging gear.
Failing that, truck spare part places, they sell a fair bit of kit to.

doc evil · « **Reply #47 on:** August 08, 2014, 10:04:06 AM »

Quote from: Ratbag on August 07, 2014, 04:57:14 PM

Don't get confused between Breaking Strain (BS), Working Load Limit (WLL) and Safe Working Load (SWL).

The Wikipedia article here does not appear to be accurate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_load_limit

as it does not adequately differentiate between a rolling load (usually defined as the WLL) and dead (vertical) lift load (SWL).

My creeper winch has a WLL of 2,400 Kgs and a SWL of 1,600 Kgs, for example. It has a shear pin to ensure that the BS is limited to the weakest part of the device.

Several things..........SWL is no longer a term used. Was a big court case in the US and resulted in the word "safe" being removed from all load created work equipment.
Secondly, ALL rated "lifting" equipment is for just that. Lifting!
horizontal load force cannot be applied to vertical "lifting/rigging" rated equipment!

Likewise, Hoist and Winch ratings ARE different.

Green rv · « **Reply #48 on:** August 08, 2014, 10:54:54 AM »

lets see if i've got this right

bow shackle is rated at 750kg (WLL) its (BLL) is 6 times greater (as stated by main roads) = 4.5t
does this look right to you (see pic)

this is what it states in main roads info

Rated bolts, chain shackles or other suitable fittings (i.e. hammerlocks) may be used as devices for
connection on safety chains providing the BREAK LOAD LIMIT of the device is at least 1.5 times greater
than the ATM of the trailer

• Generally, the BREAK LOAD LIMIT of a rated shackle will be six times greater than its work load limit.

• Pin diameter of shackle will be greater than the diameter of the main shackle body.
• Same size shackles of different quality grades will have a different WLL (i.e. 6mm “S” grade shackle
has a greater WLL than a 6mm “M” grade shackle).
• Stainless steel shackles are unsuitable for trailer use due to the material’s general low resistance to
bending stresses.
• S” or “6” grade “D” Shackles bear similar characteristics to “S” or “6” grade Bow Shackles
• Bow shackles provide for greater angular usage compared with “D” shackles.

note this is on the front of a 2.5 t supreme that has two chains
ADS

Ratbag · « **Reply #49 on:** August 08, 2014, 11:17:06 AM »

Quote from: doc evil on August 08, 2014, 10:04:06 AM

Several things..........SWL is no longer a term used. Was a big court case in the US and resulted in the word "safe" being removed from all load created work equipment.
Secondly, ALL rated "lifting" equipment is for just that. Lifting!
horizontal load force cannot be applied to vertical "lifting/rigging" rated equipment!

Likewise, Hoist and Winch ratings ARE different.

Sorry, I didn't realise that the sometimes crazy decisions made by USA courts were even treated as obiter dicta in Oz courts, let alone as precedents, even when the ratio decidendi can be ascertained ...

BTW, I can assure you that the winch I have is designed for both lifting and rolling loads. Perhaps that might be why the manufacturer gives different safe working numbers for each type of load?

News:

Author Topic: Any truth in this? (Read 40838 times)