Caravan faults - eye opener

[D4D]

Would you ever buy a caravan after looking at this thread?
http://caravanersforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12286

[crackacoldie]

When I am home next I will try and post up some pics of our caravan when the coupling plate weld parted ways..while we were travelling, causing the van to fall to the ground.  Result, van repaired and sold, camper trailer ordered.

[DANBRI]

The prices they quote for repairs seem a little inflated to me.

I had a 2000 18ft Windsor Windcheater I picked up a while ago cheap with the intent to use it for some coastal weekends and clean it up and on-sell for a few extra dollars when the time was right. Something to tinker on. It had lots of water issues and in the end I removed most of the cladding on the front and the lower sections of both sides replacing most of the structure along the way. I ended up running alloy tread plate on the bottom 300mm as this is the current style with a lot of vans. It had the same water ingress issues noticeable with the fungi growing (and evident smell).

Even with the alloy sheets cut to size I only spent about $1500 on it. including wood, glues, inserts strips etc. Adding an hourly rate obviously would inflate the price, But 12k sounds pretty ridiculous to me. I probably spent four weekends on it.

It was a good project and I certainly have a great respect for a caravans lack of offroad endurance now. I would love to buy one in bits and put it together at my leasure.

[Crazy Dog]

Just check these out. I remember what Teabag said about the standard of wiring behind his fridge in the new unit he just purchased...


Really what gives with this quality of workmanship -I ask you???


Double Grrr!!! Grrr!!!

[D4D]

Pics from here http://caravanersforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12286

Also posted here http://myswag.org/forum/index.php?topic=9712

[Crazy Dog]

You got it mate...This is to let people know what can happen...Did not realise it had been posted b4..

Grrr!!

[D4D]

Criminal that you can pay huge $$ and have somebody with no trade qualifications build your van.

I bought some Clipsal double pole double GPOs the other day at Middys for $35 each. The local caravan place had Chinese versions for $15. Manufacturers save a few $ and compromise their build quality and the owner's safety.

[Humbolt]

Is that your unit Crazy??
Really i do not think that quality of workmanship is a real concern, only the amount of people that complain!!

[speewa158]

Who did the wiring Stevie Wonder or Helen Keller 

[Rocketsurgery]

Is that your unit Crazy??
Really i do not think that quality of workmanship is a real concern, only the amount of people that complain!!

Really?  Compromised insulation, burnt out wiring?  OK, I guess your standards are slightly different than mine.  I prefer the electrickery to remain in the wires, not be arcing or shorting creating a fire risk, but that's just me whinging I guess.

[Draggin]

Humbolt - (or is that Humbug?) - tongue in cheek, yes?
Rocketsurgery - I'm with you. I would be severly peeved about the safety risk to my family let alone my "investment".
This post by someone who fastidiously avoids cheap imports - buy Aussie for several reasons, keeps jobs here, better warranty backup, better quality and generally less hassles with fitting/operation and safety.
Cheers

[Rocketsurgery]

Humbolt - (or is that Humbug?) - tongue in cheek, yes?

Cripes, lets hope so!

[Humbolt]

You guys..........yes it was very much tongue in cheek!!!
I was typing with my sarcastic keyboard 

Seriously though i have seen some of this stuff first hand being in the trade and all. Not in vans or CT's but in industry.
People who wonder why they get harped on about seeing a qualified sparky to do the work need to see this!!!

Next time someone asks for advice on wiring 240V, a link to this thread should be the reply..........

[Crazy Dog]

Totally agree - get it done by a kwallyfied electrshun...

These pics are from Australian built vans as well. Loox like some have used cheap import stuff though..

Buyer beware..

Grrr!!!

[LJs GU]

I was typing with my sarcastic keyboard 

He was typing using 'Sarcastica' font... (or was it 'Times New Joking').  12 point if I'm not mistaken.
LJ

[Symon]

That's a good set of photo's.

One thing that stands out in a lot of them is that only the earth wire is melted/burnt.  To me that points out a very simple but fundamental flaw that the installer obviously had no idea about - anyone want to have a guess what it is?

[D4D]

Come on tell us, don't keep us in suspenders

[NewcastleKnight]

Because it was not done properly? 

[Kit_e_kat9]

Don't get a 15 year old to wire your caravan?
You have to earth it properly?
You shouldn't cut any of the wiring?
You should have a licence to do this sort of Shit?
Don't use the wrong size or type of wiring?

You should have a quality circuit breaker installed and not a chinese cheeeeepie?

240V in caravans should be banned?










Thank goodness I have a quality built CT!  Will never have those issues ...

Kit_e

[agsmky]

That's a good set of photo's.

One thing that stands out in a lot of them is that only the earth wire is melted/burnt.  To me that points out a very simple but fundamental flaw that the installer obviously had no idea about - anyone want to have a guess what it is?

Looks like high impedance is not tripping the protection.

ags

[Symon]

I'll repost two in particular -




Notice how only the earth conductors are melted, and the active and neutral conductors are perfectly OK?  This is what happens when you mix circuits of different voltages and don't put some thought into how you do it.  I bet in this scenario the manufacturer has done three things - 1. used a chassis return for the negative back to the battery, 2. used piddly small cable for their connections to chassis and 3. has connected the 240V earth conductor to the chassis in multiple locations.  What this does is create a situation where the 240V earthing conductor is a lower resistance path back to the battery than what the chassis is, so it ends up carrying all of the 12V DC current.  2.5mm² cable is only good for about 25A before it starts to melt, so it doesn't take many 12V appliances to draw that kind of current, so the earth conductor is overloaded and will melt.  This is also the exact same reason why you always put the earth clamp close to the job when welding - otherwise electrical wiring ends up carrying welding current and will smoke away.

I notice in the post he goes to great lengths to say that the RCD or circuit breaker did not trip - of course it didn't, they aren't meant to detect faults of that nature.



This image is a perfect example of why you always size your fuse or circuit breaker to the cable.  The fuse/breaker should have activated long before this happened, but I bet it was oversized so it allowed this to happen.

[D4D]

Great summary, finally some value out of a 12V thread 

[LJs GU]

Great summary, finally some value out of a 12V thread 

"You took the words right outta my mouth"
Meatloaf/LJ

[oldtrack123]

Hi Symon
Re :" 1. used a chassis return for the negative back to the battery, 2. used piddly small cable for their connections to chassis and 3. has connected the 240V earth conductor to the chassis in multiple locations.  What this does is create a situation where the 240V earthing conductor is a lower resistance path back to the battery than what the chassis is, so it ends up carrying all of the 12V DC current.  2.5mm2 cable is only good for about 25A end quote "

Yes the most likely cause, It did need high currents & that could only come from the 12v circuits.
Two things come to my mind,
Did they use earth ,frame /chassis returns for 12v circuits[possibly/probably]instead of a dedicated neg return cables
HOW did they  comply with the requirements of AS3001 re earthing of various areas of the van to the 240v main earth?

Peter

[Symon]

Yes the most likely cause, It did need high currents & that could only come from the 12v circuits.
Two things come to my mind,
Did they use earth ,frame /chassis returns for 12v circuits[possibly/probably]instead of a dedicated neg return cables
HOW did they  comply with the requirements of AS3001 re earthing of various areas of the van to the 240v main earth?

Chassis return is OK provided it's done properly, but unfortunately from what I've seen of caravans and the like it rarely is.  I had a look at my neighbours pop top (can't remember what it was, but it wasn't a Jayco) and all the returns came back to one point (which was a very ugly solder wrap) and had a bit of 4mm from there to the chassis.  Not surprisingly this bit of 4mm smoked up and burnt all the insulation off.

The problem I see is that the ELV side of things is a deregulated industry, you don't need any qualifications at all to wire up a 12V system in a caravan - that scares me.

It wouldn't surprise me if the caravan was fully compliant to AS 3001 - lets face it, there isn't much in that standard that is really ground breaking.  The fact the earth conductor smoked up tells me that it probably was done right, but the ELV stuff was done wrong.

However it obviously doesn't comply to the segregation requirements of AS 3000, and the overload protection isn't there either.