Author Topic: Home Solar ROI  (Read 5536 times)

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Offline paceman

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Re: Home Solar ROI
« Reply #75 on: March 25, 2021, 10:27:08 AM »
wait till everyone signs up .. and then -> Australians with rooftop solar panels could soon be charged for exporting power into the grid, under proposed changes


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-25/australians-with-rooftop-solar-charged-export-electricity-grid/100026336

what a shock.  not.

impacts to the existing grid were brought up ad nauseum and basically ignored when these solar export tariffs were first introduced and discussed...

will be very interesting to see how this goes...

Offline Pete79

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Re: Home Solar ROI
« Reply #76 on: March 25, 2021, 11:25:28 AM »
So those 'gold plated' poles and wires are apparently the problem here.

When the owners of said poles and wires invested over $46 billion a few years ago they told us that the 45-50% increases we saw in our power bills was because they had built this indestructible infrastructure, just for us.
Now these same companies are telling us that the gold plated network is actually really fragile, so fragile it can't handle a few people getting free power from the sun and they'll need to increase our power bills.


So just trying to work out if it was total BS back then or is it total BS now....
Or is it just all BS all the time from both the energy companies and their friendly regulators.....  ???

Offline paceman

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Re: Home Solar ROI
« Reply #77 on: March 25, 2021, 11:52:21 AM »
don't want to get into an argument, mate.

it's not about the network being fragile.  the network in qld is as good and resilient as it has ever been.  yes, in large part due to plenty of $$$

when the network was being upgraded, large scale solar was not on the agenda.  some of these network upgrade decisions were started 20 years ago.

the current network model (not just here but in many countries) we have was/is based on large scale generation, and distribution out to consumers, not back in from consumers.  and that overall model is 60-70 years old, in some cases. 

no-one has a crystal ball.  easy to criticise when you have the benefit of hindsight.

i know i won't change your mind.  but, there are some of us that have a bit more insight into the inner workings of the electrical grid here in qld.

do i think that people should be charged to export power?  no.
do i think that the original tariff setup was deluded and ridiculous? yes.

i've said my piece.  there are two sides to this story. 


« Last Edit: March 25, 2021, 12:08:09 PM by paceman »

Offline below sea level

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Re: Home Solar ROI
« Reply #78 on: March 25, 2021, 11:57:53 AM »
I'll be interested to see how many people line up for expensive batteries once they have to pay to export. I personally try to export as little as possible from my system as the real saving comes from actual usage, not FIT. Even then, on a normal day I still export more than I use while the sun is down.

Offline Mace

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Re: Home Solar ROI
« Reply #79 on: March 25, 2021, 01:04:11 PM »
I'll be interested to see how many people line up for expensive batteries once they have to pay to export. I personally try to export as little as possible from my system as the real saving comes from actual usage, not FIT. Even then, on a normal day I still export more than I use while the sun is down.

Same here...

We will be adding batteries to our system at some stage.  I would do it tomorrow IF:

-  we were encouraged to feed back in peak times when additional supply was required (to offset reducing coal fired supply capacity)
-  and if we received an appropriate (higher) tariff to do this.

A pity that current Governments (all of them) cant get their heads around a regulatory framework that fits the 21st Century.


Offline Pete79

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Re: Home Solar ROI
« Reply #80 on: March 25, 2021, 01:21:41 PM »
don't want to get into an argument, mate.

it's not about the network being fragile.  the network in qld is as good and resilient as it has ever been.  yes, in large part due to plenty of $$$

when the network was being upgraded, large scale solar was not on the agenda.  some of these network upgrade decisions were started 20 years ago.

the current network model (not just here but in many countries) we have was/is based on large scale generation, and distribution out to consumers, not back in from consumers.  and that overall model is 60-70 years old, in some cases. 

no-one has a crystal ball.  easy to criticise when you have the benefit of hindsight.

i know i won't change your mind.  but, there are some of us that have a bit more insight into the inner workings of the electrical grid here in qld.

do i think that people should be charged to export power?  no.
do i think that the original tariff setup was deluded and ridiculous? yes.

i've said my piece.  there are two sides to this story.
Hopefully this can stay as a civil discussion by all.

I think we all understand and agree that our power network is old and wasn’t originally designed for so much (if any) domestic solar production.

But I’m personally pretty cynical with the language around this current issue (just as I was back when they were free to increase our bills as and when they pleased).

The interview with the regulator on the news this morning was almost unbearable to watch.

When the regulator says operators should be able to charge “a small fee” to customers, but only when the customer has created “traffic jams” on the network, alarm bells are ringing everywhere.

I’m very interested to see if when I get my “small fee” added to my bill, will I also be given a copy of the network map and they show me exactly where my power caused the “traffic jam”.

Sounds like an open checkbook policy to me.

I don’t expect this proposal will be enough to convince most people to invest in batteries to run their houses totally off grid just yet.
But I do expect this will be a nice little earner for the power companies.

Offline paceman

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Re: Home Solar ROI
« Reply #81 on: March 25, 2021, 01:38:09 PM »
will I also be given a copy of the network map and they show me exactly where my power caused the “traffic jam”.

i have no info about the regulator part in this...

the 'traffic jam' will most likely be conductor size to the transformer (TX) or the transformer itself...

in a lot of cases, whole streets/housing estates are hooked up to solar, and the 'jams' occur because the conductor installed (to the TX or from TX to TX) was never designed to handle the loads produced by solar on houses.

generally, the network has been designed in such a way that conductor size gets smaller, as you transition through from generation (biggest), transmission (smaller) and distribution (smallest for 240V).

to alleviate the solar export issues, conductor sizes have to get bigger, especially in the distribution space (ie:  from house to distribution TX, and from distribution TX to zone TX, to a lesser degree).

if the conductor is too small for the solar load pushing back through it, there will be a consequence (ie: heat and higher voltages, which the conductor and the network is not built to handle)

even powerlines stringing from pole to pole are affected by this higher heat and voltage, because when they heat up due to higher voltage, they will sag (sometimes to a great degree, 5+ metres in some cases) causing a safety issue as well as a voltage issue.

the transformer itself may not be capable of handling the power coming back into it (think of it like a dam wall, with a full dam behind it, and then an equal amount of water hits the dam wall from the other/dry side).  the consequences of that happening to a large distribution TX or a zone TX could be catastrophic.

these types of issues are being rectified over time, but this isn't an instant fix.  it's possible a 20-40 year job to re-configure the entire QLD network.

I think we all understand and agree that our power network is old and wasn’t originally designed for so much (if any) domestic solar production.

and that is a huge part of this issue.  the expectation is that the network can just be modified on a whim, or in a very short time frame.  it just isn't possible.  and to make these changes costs $$$.

where does that extra $$$ come from?  and it is extra $$$, not just the existing maintenance $$$ provided by the regulator, which are reducing over every 5 year span.

in the end, this inability for the network model to be changed quickly (through no fault of it's own) is a perfect reason why the original 44c tariff scheme was misguided and poorly thought out in the early stages.


« Last Edit: March 25, 2021, 01:44:34 PM by paceman »

Offline Hairs

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Re: Home Solar ROI
« Reply #82 on: March 25, 2021, 03:46:49 PM »
Hey Guys don't get too carried away with installing Solar.
Quote
Australians with rooftop solar panels could soon be charged for exporting power into the grid, under proposed changes
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-25/australians-with-rooftop-solar-charged-export-electricity-grid/100026336
Looks like I'll be saving for batteries.
Bastards keep changing the goal posts.  >:D

Edit, Tried posting using firefox on my phone, kept reverting to Tappatalk, sorry
:(
« Last Edit: March 25, 2021, 03:48:39 PM by Hairs »
You don't use magic to disappear, all you need is a 4wd & a Swag ;)


Offline Bird

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Re: Home Solar ROI
« Reply #83 on: March 25, 2021, 03:56:41 PM »
Hey Guys don't get too carried away with installing Solar.https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-25/australians-with-rooftop-solar-charged-export-electricity-grid/100026336
Looks like I'll be saving for batteries.
Bastards keep changing the goal posts.  >:D

Edit, Tried posting using firefox on my phone, kept reverting to Tappatalk, sorry
:(
:p
http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=57203.msg1034965#msg1034965
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Offline jclures

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Re: Home Solar ROI
« Reply #84 on: March 25, 2021, 08:50:06 PM »
Does anyone remember when our prices went up, we were told it was because it was the rolled gold poles and wires were the reason. So where are these rolled gold posts and wires now.
This was the reason the feds pushed through to force there states to sell there power assets to private companies to bring down the price of power. ???

Offline lloydus67

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Re: Home Solar ROI
« Reply #85 on: March 25, 2021, 09:28:52 PM »
Lol
Because everyone knows privatisation reduces costs.


How does the merry go round go

Government sells an industry to private business as they know how to run it and reduce costs.
(Read little maintenance and even less capital expenditure)
Costs raised to increase profits.

Then private industry, needs government handouts (our tax dollars) to support a failing out of date industry and agree to price hikes to pay for replacement infrastructure that we already bought in the first place with our tax dollars.




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Offline Bird

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Re: Home Solar ROI
« Reply #86 on: March 26, 2021, 08:54:59 AM »
Quote from: jclures
... to sell there power assets to private companies to bring down the price of power. ???

but nobody believed/s that this will ever happen.... nobody. yet they always go ahead and sell off Shit we own shortsighted.
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Offline paceman

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Re: Home Solar ROI
« Reply #87 on: March 26, 2021, 09:13:05 AM »
but nobody believed/s that this will ever happen.... nobody. yet they always go ahead and sell off Shit we own shortsighted.

+1...

certain things should be government owned...

energy infrastructure (including fuel and refining capacity)
communications infrastructure
transport infrastructure (roads, bridges, etc)

Offline Onion

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Re: Home Solar ROI
« Reply #88 on: March 26, 2021, 11:52:32 AM »
+1000.

+1...

certain things should be government owned...

energy infrastructure (including fuel and refining capacity)
communications infrastructure
transport infrastructure (roads, bridges, etc)
Trackabout owner.

Offline prodigyrf

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Re: Home Solar ROI
« Reply #89 on: March 26, 2021, 12:45:43 PM »
I'll be interested to see how many people line up for expensive batteries once they have to pay to export. I personally try to export as little as possible from my system as the real saving comes from actual usage, not FIT. Even then, on a normal day I still export more than I use while the sun is down.

You nailed the problem with the fallacy of composition that we could all chuck up lots of solar panels and dump on the communal grid to keep our bills down. It's OK when a minority do it with beggar thy neighbour bill costs but not when we all do it and welcome to the solar duck curve not to mention fickle wind- https://anero.id/energy/wind-energy/2021/february (run your cursor over that graph to see the extreme variability between the peaks and troughs).

So what was really needed right from the start with these unreliables was a level playing field. ie Any tenderer of electrons to the communal grid must be able to reasonably guarantee them 24/7/365 along with FCAS (ie short of unforeseen mechanical breakdown) or keep them and use them themselves. As consumers we all need reliable dispatchable power at the correct voltage and frequency. We had that with large centralised hub and spoke FF spinning mass generation but now increasingly it's reactive spaghetti and meatballs with its concomitant costs. Same deal public or private.

Reliable means storage to iron out those horrible outputs to steady average performance but as rooftop solar owners we know batteries won't cut it economically. Besides if we do install expensive Powerwalls etc to overcome the problem we wouldn't have any power to export anyway. So what's the answer with all that installed rooftop solar if it's not wanted with feast or famine and batteries are too dear? On top of that we're all supposed to be charging our future EVs at home at night with coal going and no evening off peak so have a guess when peak rates will apply then?

The answer is to go all electric (gas has to go too remember) and use the solar power to heat cheap electric storage HWS and any left can go into airconditioning the home ready for homecoming-
https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/divert-solar-air-conditioning/
https://www.solarquotes.com.au/hot-water/pv-diverters/
Get with the program folks as your dumped electrons aren't wanted anymore by your equally dumping neighbours so use it or lose it. 





 
« Last Edit: March 26, 2021, 12:52:51 PM by prodigyrf »
There's no Great Evil conspiracy against consumers within engineering, manufacturing and supply. Just the many tradeoffs incurred to satisfy diverse tastes, priorities and wallets. But first comes all the insatiable Gummint eggsperts, nanny-staters and usual suspects.