Author Topic: Interesting read on electric cars  (Read 8177 times)

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Offline Paddler Ed

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Re: Interesting read on electric cars
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2019, 10:59:57 PM »
Ownership of cars is falling amongst those who live in the cities - not just in Australia, but worldwide in the EU, USA and other "developed" countries:

From the Australian:
Quote
In the City of Melbourne, 76 per cent of households (mostly apartments and terraces) report having no car. In the Sydney CBD including Haymarket and The Rocks the no-car community comprises 57 per cent of all households. In the Adelaide CBD this proportion is 40 per cent while in central Brisbane it is 35 per cent.

Whilst in the USA they're seeing that some age groups are less likely to own a car than their parents or grandparents at the same age https://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article/demographic-shifts-shaping-future-car-ownership/

So what does that mean? I use my brother here as an example. He's 35, and has only owned a car since he was 33. Prior to that he's never needed to own a car living in either London or Melbourne. In contrast, I'm 39 and I've owned or leased a car since I was 21. 4 years age difference, different places lived in (I've never lived in a big city since I was at uni for my undergraduate degree) and I think that's part of the approach to car ownership now. He wanted to go somewhere? He hired a car, or he'd fly there and then hire a car, or, in the UK, he'd get the train and then get picked up.

We've going to have an increasing urbanisation of the population - Outside of the Greater Capital City Statistical Areas there only lives 32.99% (2016) of the population (Australian Bureau of Statistics, 2018) and that area is 99.28% of Australia’s land mass - and therefore, they don't need their own cars as much if there are viable substitute modes of transport (train, share cars or bikes, buses, trams, light rail, ride sharing) that mean they don't need to incur the cost of their own vehicle.

If they can get the induction charging to work (which is getting close) imagine being able to pick up a share car (GoGet or similar) that is parked over a charging pad, drive it to where you need to get to, park it on the nearest induction pad and off you go. Something like this is already happening with some transport options like taxis. That'll solve most city driving requirements as the normal city distance is under 50km IIRC - the power used to cover that in terms of CO2 generation in an EV will be a fraction of what it would be in an IC vehicle, especially given the gridlock that most capital city roads are.

On the other hand, and I seem to keep saying this, I think that agricultural applications will also go to EVs - they have the benefit of huge amount of torque (why are so many trains diesel electric? why are the big mine dump trucks diesel electric?_ that can be applied directly to the wheel that needs it with individual motors. They also have the space for solar set ups. Now imagine a drop in and drop out battery pack in the autonomous ag machine (hey, most tractors now have the gear to get to at least to Level 3, nearly level 4 of the SAE Autonomous vehicle grades and some mine trucks are running at Level 5)



So what does that mean for us?
Well, for me, probably SFA. I live in regional NSW, we don't have the mature car sharing options, we don't even have Uber (and it's nearly 40,000 population LGA). Nor do we have any charging stations in town... but come school holidays, we do get plenty of Teslas in town, so they obviously charge up somewhere.

Now, if a Tesla has a range of 450km (give or take - that's approaching maximum range), realistically that's about 5hrs driving. Driving safely, you'd have had a break after 2 to 3hrs for a feed and you might have been able to lob 30-45mins charge in then, so you're then good for perhaps a total of 650km... so all of a sudden that 30minute break is extending your range by 400km each time.

OK, it'll change how you camp, so that might be a bit of a culture shock for some people... I'm sure there'll be solutions worked out by National Sparks and Wildfires at some of their visitor locations (Dorrigo springs to mind, as does the QLD NP around Giraween and the Pyramid rocks).

In response to the comment of how are we going to have enough electricity for everyone? Well, all we need to do is use less of it to begin with, and perhaps be more selective in how we use it.
  • Does your house have aircon?
  • If your house was designed differently would it be possible to do away with aircon? WA are starting to wise up on it (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-16/the-hidden-costs-of-mcmansions/10981336)
  • Do you have LED lighting in the house? NSW have a big drive on to help businesses reduce their energy usage by changing to more efficient technologies
  • Do you shop on the street or in a shopping centre? If you shop in a shopping centre (Westfields etc) are you shopping in somewhere that is trying to keep cool a giant (normally grey or black) box with loads of electric lights in it, and no natural lighting? In comparison, a traditional streetscape could operate with much less light and no air conditioning for the communal area as it's open air.

Just some bits to think about...

Lastly, manufacturers will change to ensure their survivability. I remember talking to someone who said 10 years ago their typical customer was a 50 year old who enjoyed activity x; now their typical customer is a 60 year old who enjoys activity x... ie it hasn't changed, and in another 20 years will have died off... leaving them no customer... They're looking at diversifying to ensure they remain competitive and in existence.
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Offline KeithB

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Re: Interesting read on electric cars
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2019, 11:17:08 PM »
Keith
Your 2005 forecast was not out by much.
Any change of picking the lotto numbers for me.

Oopos. Typo now fixed. Thanks for pointing that out.

Paddler Ed, that is a most informative post. Thank you for that.

I have been looking at a string on another forum where electric cars have come up. The idiot fringe has come out of the woodwork in numbers, raving about Bill Shorten and the disaster that will befall us if Labor is elected.  The level if technical illiteracy in this area is nothing short of alarming.

Three days ago, we put in a 10Kw solar setup with a 13.2 KWH Tesla battery. Yesterday we did 95% of our own power on a cloudy day with my wife vacuuming, pool pump for 3 hours, a load of washing and a dishwasher in the mix. Finished up at zero charge at midnight. Today has been overcast with a patch of sun around mid day. Have drawn just 1.4KWH from the mains for brekky and the battery is now at 30 per cent. The next exercise is to go with LED bulbs and chase down any electrical thieves in the house. The heated tower rail in the bathroom comes to mind.

Keith


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Offline JusyApples

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Re: Interesting read on electric cars
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2019, 06:22:59 AM »
Oopos. Typo now fixed. Thanks for pointing that out.

Paddler Ed, that is a most informative post. Thank you for that.

I have been looking at a string on another forum where electric cars have come up. The idiot fringe has come out of the woodwork in numbers, raving about Bill Shorten and the disaster that will befall us if Labor is elected.  The level if technical illiteracy in this area is nothing short of alarming.

Three days ago, we put in a 10Kw solar setup with a 13.2 KWH Tesla battery. Yesterday we did 95% of our own power on a cloudy day with my wife vacuuming, pool pump for 3 hours, a load of washing and a dishwasher in the mix. Finished up at zero charge at midnight. Today has been overcast with a patch of sun around mid day. Have drawn just 1.4KWH from the mains for brekky and the battery is now at 30 per cent. The next exercise is to go with LED bulbs and chase down any electrical thieves in the house. The heated tower rail in the bathroom comes to mind.

Keith
Guess what Keith not everyone is in your circumstance and can afford solar systems. Some people live in apartments or townhouses and have off street parking. Are people going to run extension cords out onto the street?
Or in my circumstance where we had some quotes for solar, due to our neighbour having a two story house and our back neighbour having a tree it’s not viable for us to have solar.
Just because you have it doesn’t mean millions of other households can.


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Offline gronk

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Re: Interesting read on electric cars
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2019, 06:50:09 AM »
I think most people make a much bigger deal out of charging than it really is, with a 500ish km range, you will just charge at home 95% of the time, when you are doing a greater than that trip is when you will use a super charger.
I have seen some videos on YouTube of people trecking across the US in there Tesla, the Car guides them to the Supercharger in the town, they hook it up and tell them how long it will take them to get enough charge to get to the next stop, they go off to get a feed and the Car messages them in half an hr  (or less for a part charge) or so to let them know it's good to go.

Sure we don't have the charging infrastructure in place here yet that they do, but Tesla probably already has more chargers than you realise and that number will only grow.

The problem is we live in a society that doesn't wait for anything........waiting around for a car to charge is a big turn off for most.
I'm sure they'll have a better idea soon, but having to physically plug a car into a charger every night at home is also a major turnoff ..
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Offline Spada

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Re: Interesting read on electric cars
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2019, 07:14:05 AM »
10 years or so ago we all camped with gas lanterns and ice filled esky's.................just saying  >:D

it's amazing what industries can achieve the the marked shows there is money to be made.

I suspect over the next decade or so we will see huge advances in electric vehicle technology. I'm currently working on a project at work mapping delivery routes for several hundred electric delivery vehicles that are coming over the next 12 months, and the bit I'm working on is only 1 small piece of a significantly larger project that is being done with future needs in mind.

I can see a significant cultural shift occurring in metropolitan areas over the next decade or so, but not so much in rural/remote areas? As for the loss in petrol excise, I've no doubt the government (of whatever persuasion) will find a way to introduce a distance based road tax (my tinfoil hat thinks your smart car will probably be reporting your travelled distance all by itself?)
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Offline KeithB

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Re: Interesting read on electric cars
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2019, 07:28:36 AM »
Guess what Keith not everyone is in your circumstance and can afford solar systems. Some people live in apartments or townhouses and have off street parking. Are people going to run extension cords out onto the street?
Or in my circumstance where we had some quotes for solar, due to our neighbour having a two story house and our back neighbour having a tree it’s not viable for us to have solar.
Just because you have it doesn’t mean millions of other households can.
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My guess is that there will be plenty of charging stations and no need to run a lead into the street. The Clean Energy Council says that there are already 2 million households with solar panels. But there are only 33,000 with batteries and with 70,000 tipped by the end of the year. There is currently a 4 week wait to get a Tesla battery. But, as JusyApples says, not everyone can go solar.
We did the solar battery thing because it gives a return on investment of 11% which you can't get investing anywhere else.

Australians have always been early adopters of technology and I bet EVs will be no different, once they become affordable and the charging infrastructure starts to look viable.

Keith
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Offline Pete79

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Re: Interesting read on electric cars
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2019, 08:02:02 AM »
Apparently my earlier comments are not correct.

I see the man that almost singlehandedly destroyed a whole car manufacturing industry in this country has now said if the global industry wants to force us towards EVs then he’ll just start up our own vehicle manufacturing industry over here.

Awesome plan!
Now, just remind me. Where did we put all of those 100s of skilled workers again.... ???

Offline chester ver2.0

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Re: Interesting read on electric cars
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2019, 08:13:54 AM »
The problem is we live in a society that doesn't wait for anything........waiting around for a car to charge is a big turn off for most.
I'm sure they'll have a better idea soon, but having to physically plug a car into a charger every night at home is also a major turnoff ..

Really i would much rather do that than have to go to a smelly servo slip ass over tit on some oil and then have my hands smell like diesel for the next hour as the pump handle is that dirty.

Honestly the way the tech is going i will bet within 5 years there will be a 2 minute super charge station that will get you say 200k till you can get the thing fully charged

I personally love the concept and it goes with my eventual off grid lifestyle of solar on the roof at home going into a tesla battery or similar which would be charging my EV in the garage and powering the house

If the Rivan ute comes out with a reasonable sticker price i would buy one tomorrow
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Offline edz

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Re: Interesting read on electric cars
« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2019, 08:16:44 AM »
All this yapping on about electric cars will do this's and wont do thats, recharge times, etc etc cars too expensive 50% by 2030 ..
Found theres plenty of choices around and BLOODY CHEAP too, you can even easily afford a Bugatti Veyeron or Lambo ..
 The Chinks have been flooding the fleabay / Amazombie etc markets with Solar rechargability ready Electric recyclable knock offs that are way ahead of the major brands to pick up the slack from the usual big auto makers ....   $199 to just over a $1000 and some come with spare battery packs ..
Hell they even did a knock off of Petes Jeep, talk about offering "  personalized customability "  Just so as you wont miss your old fossil fuel guzzler when you switch over .  ;D ;D ;D
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Offline Bigfish

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Re: Interesting read on electric cars
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2019, 08:35:02 AM »
All this yapping on about electric cars will do this's and wont do thats, recharge times, etc etc cars too expensive 50% by 2030 ..
Found theres plenty of choices around and BLOODY CHEAP too, you can even easily afford a Bugatti Veyeron or Lambo ..
 The Chinks have been flooding the fleabay / Amazombie etc markets with Solar rechargability ready Electric recyclable knock offs that are way ahead of the major brands to pick up the slack from the usual big auto makers ....   $199 to just over a $1000 and some come with spare battery packs ..
Hell they even did a knock off of Petes Jeep, talk about offering "  personalized customability "  Just so as you wont miss your old fossil fuel guzzler when you switch over .  ;D ;D ;D

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Offline Pottsy

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Re: Interesting read on electric cars
« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2019, 08:43:41 AM »
I'm not sure if this needs to be in the electrical section, but will you have to take your car to an electrician for servicing. :D
Can you imagine myswag electrical section discussing fast chargers etc, break out the popcorn, sit back and watch the s....t fly.
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Offline Paddler Ed

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Re: Interesting read on electric cars
« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2019, 09:01:36 AM »
I'm not sure if this needs to be in the electrical section, but will you have to take your car to an electrician for servicing. :D
Can you imagine myswag electrical section discussing fast chargers etc, break out the popcorn, sit back and watch the s....t fly.

Know someone who works for a BMW dealership in the UK, and he's the one who does the EVs. 240V by all accounts is tame in comparison, you're dealing with much higher volts and amps IIRC. Workshops will need to be bigger for clear zones, workshop times will be longer whilst you wait for things to downcharge, never mind the training needed to work on them.

Offline Bigfish

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Re: Interesting read on electric cars
« Reply #37 on: May 03, 2019, 09:28:20 AM »
Know someone who works for a BMW dealership in the UK, and he's the one who does the EVs. 240V by all accounts is tame in comparison, you're dealing with much higher volts and amps IIRC. Workshops will need to be bigger for clear zones, workshop times will be longer whilst you wait for things to downcharge, never mind the training needed to work on them.

The other issue will be spare parts.  Tesla have a bad reputation for supplying and distributing parts.

Offline edz

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Re: Interesting read on electric cars
« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2019, 09:33:19 AM »
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Re: Interesting read on electric cars
« Reply #39 on: May 03, 2019, 09:46:28 AM »
Quote from: chester ver2.0
Really i would much rather do that than have to go to a smelly servo slip ass over tit on some oil and then have my hands smell like diesel for the next hour as the pump handle is that dirty
How often does that happen these days? About never? or if your worried, pair of leather gloves like old bloke in the club does.

once trendy cars became diesel and ladies started drivin em, things changed.... If you go the truck section of a servo, things are different. the servo near work just had their 12 pumps upgraded to all have all 4 fuels (ulp, 95, 98) and diesel..
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Offline Pete79

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Re: Interesting read on electric cars
« Reply #40 on: May 03, 2019, 10:08:40 AM »
How often does that happen these days? About never?
Every time.
And absolutly guanteed to happen if you're wearing a crisp white business shirt on your way to a very important meeting.
Nothing like shaking hands with decision makers to discuss new clean technologies when you smell like an oil rig....  >:(


Edit;
Not actually slipping over, but getting diesel all over your hands and splashed on your shirt sleeves..
« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 10:10:45 AM by Pete79 »

Offline Bigfish

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Re: Interesting read on electric cars
« Reply #41 on: May 03, 2019, 10:14:41 AM »
Every time.
And absolutly guanteed to happen if you're wearing a crisp white business shirt on your way to a very important meeting.
Nothing like shaking hands with decision makers to discuss new clean technologies when you smell like an oil rig....  >:(


Edit;
Not actually slipping over, but getting diesel all over your hands and splashed on your shirt sleeves..

Every servo I have been to has a water tap/bucket and towel for washing drying hands.  If its a common occurrence carry a small liquid soap bottle in door trim...works for me...

Offline macca

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Re: Interesting read on electric cars
« Reply #42 on: May 03, 2019, 10:24:20 AM »
Every time.
And absolutly guanteed to happen if you're wearing a crisp white business shirt on your way to a very important meeting.
Nothing like shaking hands with decision makers to discuss new clean technologies when you smell like an oil rig....  >:(


Edit;
Not actually slipping over, but getting diesel all over your hands and splashed on your shirt sleeves..
You're supposed to put the nozzle into the fuel tank filler then pull the trigger

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Offline Hoyks

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Re: Interesting read on electric cars
« Reply #43 on: May 03, 2019, 10:25:33 AM »
The other issue will be spare parts.  Tesla have a bad reputation for supplying and distributing parts.

Yes, they only supply them to be fitted by approved repairers. Anything goes phut and you have to take it to a dealer or try and repair it yourself.
This guy wouldn't take no for an answer and has basically a Tesla wreckers yard in his basement.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfV0_wbjG8KJADuZT2ct4SA

Who Killed The Electric Car is also worth a watch, their arguement was that the car manufacturers nobbled the electric car because all that wears out are brakes and wheel bearing (and with regen braking, brakes don't get used as much). So your dealer sell a a car into a competitive market and gets a low margin, then gets stuff all from the workshop as the customer doesn't need to come back for adjustments and fluid changes every 6 months as there are hardly any moving parts or lubricants required.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3OnYjP4FTk

Personally, I'd love an electric car and have toyed with the idea of buying a Sierra with a clapped out motor and filling the space between the chassis rails with cells and a nice little 3 phase motor directly driving the gearbox. I'm 26km from work, so a fully charged battery will see me being able to drive that for 3 days with no extra electrons being added.

If running into the city, then I'm probably going for an appointment/meeting/shopping trip and will be stopped at the other end for at least an hour, so plugging it in to ensure I have more than enough power to get home isn't really an issue. Right now its finding a place to plug it in.

I'd keep the ute for my weekend or longer trips and save putting 300km/week on it for nothing and stockpile the fuel and $$. I really don't need a 3.2L diesel and 2000kg of steel and aluminium to shift just me to work, but can't really afford to own and maintain another vehicle.

Oil is running out, we can all agree on that, so finding ways to extend what we have is a good idea in my opinion.

The only way it is going to happen is to make it economically viable for companies to experiment and improve on what they have.

Petrol cars were unreliable rubbish when they first came out and you had to scrounge around to find fuel as there were no servos. But there were $$ in it, so fuel service stations sprang up to fix the crappy cars and manufactures worked to improve them to a point where they said it was good enough to have a massive inefficient poorly handling barge that would kill you in a crash, then governments said try harder and massive leaps in efficiency took place.
Same with crash-worthness and occupant safety, but only because it was legislated and made economically viable to do so.

No one is going to prise your Hilux keys from your cold, dead fingers, just remove some of the current impediments to electric vehicle ownership so people are more interested in getting one.
 
With all the electric cars and people using their own power to charge them, then I can see the fuel excise and rego going up to compensate. A bit like diesels in NZ where you have to estimate your annual km when you pay your rego.

I have plenty of roof for panels and a chainsaw to deal with any pesky shade trees, so I have no issue with solar. I'm even happy to take your tax $$ to subsidise my new batteries. I will be generous though, and feed some of the power back at peak demand times and get more than the pathetic 17c/kW they are paying me for it now.


Now, if they invented a battery where you pulled up at a servo, drain out the electrolyte and refilled it with freshly charged fluid or got the hydrogen fuel cell up and running, then watch the oil companies get onboard. Both would keep you tethered to the existing infrastructure and the fuel companies balance sheets.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 10:56:10 AM by Hoyks »

Offline chester ver2.0

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Re: Interesting read on electric cars
« Reply #44 on: May 03, 2019, 10:26:48 AM »
Every servo I have been to has a water tap/bucket and towel for washing drying hands.  If its a common occurrence carry a small liquid soap bottle in door trim...works for me...

Christ where do you live every servo i go to the paper towel has been empty since 1979, the water bucket is that filthy it should be classified as its own ecosystem and some bugger has taken the top off the tap so you cant turn it on
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Offline tryagain

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Re: Interesting read on electric cars
« Reply #45 on: May 03, 2019, 10:50:10 AM »
The problem is we live in a society that doesn't wait for anything........waiting around for a car to charge is a big turn off for most.
I'm sure they'll have a better idea soon, but having to physically plug a car into a charger every night at home is also a major turnoff ..

I think you are kind of grasping at straws, they aren't really "waiting" it's charging whilst they have a break, unless you are driving for hours and hours and hours without a break, it just a matter of coinciding a break with the charging. Plugging in a charger every night will still probably be a reasonable time saving over having to fill up at a petrol station so I don't really think it's an issue at all, more of a perception vs reality thing.
I am not trying to paint it as perfect, as it isn't, but not as bad as people try to make out, and it will only improve from here.

Offline edz

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Re: Interesting read on electric cars
« Reply #46 on: May 03, 2019, 10:54:10 AM »
I dont care, I'd still have to have something like this fitted to my Rainbow Unicorn Electric go buggy, Just because    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9XAC-BvUyo    ;D ;D
« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 10:57:29 AM by edz »
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Offline tryagain

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Re: Interesting read on electric cars
« Reply #47 on: May 03, 2019, 11:07:02 AM »
Ownership of cars is falling amongst those who live in the cities - not just in Australia, but worldwide in the EU, USA and other "developed" countries:.........
I think this is actually the more interesting point, mass adoption of EV's I think is a given, it's that in 20yrs whether we will own them, or drive them that is the more interesting point. Tesla apparently has put in their contract for people leasing their new model 3's in the US that they can't buy them out at the end of the lease as they plan to use them in their autonomous fleet after the lease period. I don't see the ICE going anywhere anytime soon, but expect to see rapid development in the EV and Automation sectors.

Offline Steffo1

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Re: Interesting read on electric cars
« Reply #48 on: May 03, 2019, 11:09:04 AM »
My take on the whole thing is that nothing concrete will happen until the big oil companies work out a way (if they haven't got a blueprint already) to gain the majority of supply to EVs, as they have with liquid and gas fuel.

When they have the means, they will then give covert permission to our government to "Implement Policies" on EVs that will make all parties smell like roses.
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Offline Pete79

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Re: Interesting read on electric cars
« Reply #49 on: May 03, 2019, 11:30:06 AM »
Personally, I'd love an electric car and have toyed with the idea of buying a Sierra with a clapped out motor and filling the space between the chassis rails with cells and a nice little 3 phase motor directly driving the gearbox. I'm 26km from work, so a fully charged battery will see me being able to drive that for 3 days with no extra electrons being added.

If running into the city, then I'm probably going for an appointment/meeting/shopping trip and will be stopped at the other end for at least an hour, so plugging it in to ensure I have more than enough power to get home isn't really an issue. Right now its finding a place to plug it in.

I'd keep the ute for my weekend or longer trips and save putting 300km/week on it for nothing and stockpile the fuel and $$. I really don't need a 3.2L diesel and 2000kg of steel and aluminium to shift just me to work, but can't really afford to own and maintain another vehicle.

Something a bit like this one?
https://4x4earth.com/forum/index.php?threads/fuzzychops-lj50-suzuki-trip-across-the-simmo.37585/