Paddock/Skidpan help needed

[Mallory Black]

After 2 bingles in less than 3 months I think that Daughter no.1 needs some extra tuition on what to do in a skid.

Wondering if anyone has or has access to a friendly landowner near Brisbane where I can put some bald tyres on the car and put her through a slalom and do some braking/avoidance stops

PLease PM me if you can help

cheers

[Brumbypt]

I have wanted to open one of my paddocks for practice as you have described for years..

but Unfortunatly insurance would put a big halt on the idea pretty quick.


Peter,
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[edz]

See if you can get out to Mnt Cotton, think there is an area that you can hire there ... or check out a mid week session at Lake side or willow bank Raceways ... Failing that there is a lot of  bare concrete  just on the north side of the gateway in the old industrial areas on the right Northbound..

[Mace]

Yep, been there, done that. Driving to conditions and  capabilities takes a bit of learning.

I learnt to drive on the farm, still didn't stop me from a few bingles early on.
Daughter 1 had two bingles between 18 and 20, both requiring replacement vehicles, but at $1000 a pop, could have been worse. She is now 24 and has our grandson in tow, no issues for the last 4 years.

A quiet talk may be a good alternative!

 

[edz]

Take her to Kingston Park and put her in the karts, speed is magnifyed with having ya bum an inch of the ground  and you soon learn how to control slides etc ... And have a bunch of fun at the same time .

[Mallory Black]

Hi Yes Kingston Park is on the agenda. cousin vs cousin, bro-n-law v bro in-law

When I were a lad I use to do Lakeside, you could pay a few bucks and do laps. did some Gymkhana and learned a lot that way and feel that she'll get the same experience.

Years later I was working for Honda and we'd rent out Mt Cotton for Demo days. I remember getting passed by Daryl Beattie .... I was on an NX650 (with a pillion), he was on a wait for it,,, 250cc scooter and took me on the outside, nothin I could do about it, he was gone.. riding a scooter....

Either that or we join a car club that does grass gymkhana.

No'1 bingle got out of it for $50 parts and a weekend's work, latest in is a bit more serious but still very lucky, although we are looking a a about 3-4 hundred this time, again 2nd hand parts and weekend worsshop sessions

[peter2904]

Mt Cotton is great as they also wet the skip pan so you get to practice braking and steering in the wet.  Plan to take my kids there when they start driving.  Better to practice how to handle a skid

Peter


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[weeds]

Sign up for AAMI insurance........they offer drivers training for U25's?? I think. one of there training pads is the TAFE at Eagle Farm.

Not sure of the exact details but when you drive past on weekends there is normally 10 or so cars doing drills in the main car park.


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[dazzler]

After 2 bingles in less than 3 months I think that Daughter no.1 needs some extra tuition on what to do in a skid.

Unless she has been INCREDIBLY UNLUCKY by striking oil or gravel 2 times then its not skid control but the reason she is getting into the skid in the first place that is the issue.

I would be looking at attitude or attention/observation.  Generally once you are in a skid it is harm minimisation.  Take a front wheel skid on a country road at 80km/h.  The skid is caused by too much speed or too much steering.  The only thing you can do in a non ABS vehicle is straighten the wheel and come off the brake, get the wheels turning and then try and turn in again enough to around the corner.  The vast majority of drivers I have dealt with in the cops will still crank that wheel into the skid forgetting the hours they were taught on the skid pan.  In an ABS vehicle the driver can stay on the brakes and keep steering and it will skip its way around as best it can. 

Either way the skid is a result of driver error (other than the oil/gravel type of accident) either too fast or poor observation.

Equally a real wheel skid at 80 k's, caused by braking or lifting off under power, is dealt with by removing the cause (accelerating and counter steering) and most drivers, even those who are experienced in skid control, just want it to stop and use the brake making it worse - hence the snap across the road.

My 2c.  Find an advanced driver school that has nothing to do with skidding and focusses on observation/anticipation/attitude.  Once she has done that then skid control as some icing on the cake.  Do the first and the second will rarely be needed.

Cheers and good luck.

[Mallory Black]

Daz, no. 1 was due to driving on the 1st wet day in months. Yes I did say don't drive on a day like that just stay home till the oil's been washed off the road land et all the other accident prone drivers get theirs out of the way .
Despite all the lessons and chats about wet v dry she went for a drive on that day, and inexperience with wet roads saw her lock the fronts and tap another car.
Number 2 was swerved to miss a dog and yes once again the chats and instruction went out the window, she did what most 18 y/o girls would have done and reefed the wheel to the gutter. We all know that the proper reflex is to stay on the road and try to stop safely protect the occupants and other road users

Here's the thing...... we can talk till we are blue in the face at young drivers boys and girls alike about how bloody dangerous the road can be and how instantly a life can be altered or ended in the blink of an eye due to being in the wrong place at the wrong time or not having the skills and imprinted reflexes that "take over" to respond to an emergency driving situation.

It's very clear that 'passing a licence test' is not enough and frankly was not enough 30 plus years ago when I got my licence.
Dazzler there are many reasons that young drivers get into a 'skid' yet don't have the skills to recover and yes poor driving attitude and attention is a contributor.
 
One of Queensland's most useless politicians David Lucas once said when asked by a reporter about driver safety education "they shouldn't be driving in a manner that makes them skid in the first place' made my blood boil at the time, he clearly had no clue. I remember seeing someone in the background cringe when he heard what the minister said.

There's many a situation that drivers young and old will face that they will be in a skid or slide or have to take evasive manouvers because of the actions of other drivers or some other sudden unforseen (sudden) change of driving circumstances like a blowout or out of control car coming at you...stuff like that.

sorry for the rant, it's late and this is a subject I'm pasionate about yet her i stand looking at a twice pranged car
I'll look up the skid pan hire at Mt Cotton.

[#jonesy]

I would look at an advanced driving course, like what AAMI offer. Skid control is on very small part of the bigger picture.  These however can be counter productive and instil a false  sense of ability.

Ding 1 was a result of not leaving enough hang back distance.  Ding 2 was a bad choice of the available options.  Of both of those when the skid started it was too late.

[Mallory Black]

Indeed Jonesy that's it in a nutshell
it's hard to put an old head on young shoulders. I should have gotten her into driving much earlier so I take responsibility for that being her dad.
As per original posting, one part of the process is to let them(cos I have 2 daughters) experience what a car feels like at the adhesion limit and what responses are needed to recover.
the plan was to do this in the Mazda because of the characteristics of a front wheel drive. (bald tyres, grass...
googling last night it's either be in a car club or go the advanced course

or pick a wet day on the karts

[duggie]

Hello peoples,

I have  said it now for many years that all young drivers need to be taught to drive a car sideways.

Getting into a skid is always the easy part, been able to control the car in the skid and recover is the hard part.

[Matto]

Glad to hear that she's OK Mr MB.

My $0.02:
* I'd skip the karts. Sliding around on a cart in the wet is great fun. Sliding around in 2 ton of car is a completely different feeling. If she was really serious about developing her driving craft it would probably be a good place to start, but as a casual lesson I'd skip it completely.

* Likewise (contentious opinion ahead), I'd skip the advanced driver training. Obviously you know her attitude better than I, but at her age any sort of advanced driving course would have simply egged me on. It would have been further confirmation that I had much, much more skill than the rest of the plebeian road users.

* I'd make her drive around in the car as it is. Replace the lights, sure, but leave the panel damage. I'd probably even mask off the front corner and spray it flat black or some other colour that stands out. Tell her that you just can't afford to fix it properly at the moment, so this will stop the rust. Leave it a month or two, then fix it. As a young bloke the shame of having to parade around in a damaged car made me think twice.

* Her car on a wet skid pan (or as per your original plan, a wet paddock) would be the best idea I think. Set up some cones or cardboard boxes (pile of sand in the bottom of them to keep them in position) and get her to run through a few scenarios. There's nothing like that really give a feel for what can happen on the road. She probably won't learn skid control in one afternoon, but she'll definitely come away with an appreciation of how a little less speed can change the outcome.

* She'll grow out of it as Mace says. Heck, I did (eventually). You look back now on how you used to behave on public roads and shudder. At the time, you honestly didn't believe that you were being such a toolbag.

* Good on you for trying to address the situation in a positive way that increases her skill and ownership of the situation, rather than just blowing your top and taking the car off her.

* Funny story about Darryl Beattie. Man can ride.

Good luck - I'm dreading going through the same thing myself in 14 years.

Cheers,
Matt

[dazzler]

Daz, no. 1 was due to driving on the 1st wet day in months. Yes I did say don't drive on a day like that just stay home till the oil's been washed off the road land et all the other accident prone drivers get theirs out of the way .
Despite all the lessons and chats about wet v dry she went for a drive on that day, and inexperience with wet roads saw her lock the fronts and tap another car.
Number 2 was swerved to miss a dog and yes once again the chats and instruction went out the window, she did what most 18 y/o girls would have done and reefed the wheel to the gutter. We all know that the proper reflex is to stay on the road and try to stop safely protect the occupants and other road users

Here's the thing...... we can talk till we are blue in the face at young drivers boys and girls alike about how bloody dangerous the road can be and how instantly a life can be altered or ended in the blink of an eye due to being in the wrong place at the wrong time or not having the skills and imprinted reflexes that "take over" to respond to an emergency driving situation.

It's very clear that 'passing a licence test' is not enough and frankly was not enough 30 plus years ago when I got my licence.
Dazzler there are many reasons that young drivers get into a 'skid' yet don't have the skills to recover and yes poor driving attitude and attention is a contributor.
 
One of Queensland's most useless politicians David Lucas once said when asked by a reporter about driver safety education "they shouldn't be driving in a manner that makes them skid in the first place' made my blood boil at the time, he clearly had no clue. I remember seeing someone in the background cringe when he heard what the minister said.

There's many a situation that drivers young and old will face that they will be in a skid or slide or have to take evasive manouvers because of the actions of other drivers or some other sudden unforseen (sudden) change of driving circumstances like a blowout or out of control car coming at you...stuff like that.

sorry for the rant, it's late and this is a subject I'm pasionate about yet her i stand looking at a twice pranged car
I'll look up the skid pan hire at Mt Cotton.

Not a rant at all.  Good discussion.

The first was caused by poor observation and reaction skills.  No matter how good she can be taught to threshold brake in the wet her instincts will kick in and she will do the same thing again.  A car fitted with ABS will do a better job than most humans today. 

The second one is less clear however how is skid control going to help if she went into the gutter?  Did she swerve and go into a rear wheel skid over compensating and going in rear wheels into the gutter?

It is a natural reaction to swerve to avoid animals as they tend to come out more suddenly than most other obstacles and it takes a long time to develop the skill to react apprporiately - old head on young shoulders.

Skid control is good in my opinion - but to be blunt I would suggest that the odds are more in favour of the fact that your daughter is not observing and anticipating what is going on as well as she could and IMO your money is better spent on raising anticipation and observation more than actual application skills.

Just my 2c.  Like you I am passionate about my loved ones safety.  What I am saying may seem to be counter intuitive but maybe step back a little from the emotion and think about this - how often do you use or need 'skid control'.  Rarely if ever I would suggest.  And that is because your experience has taught you to observe and anticipate what is going on. Its this that our kids need and its rarely if ever taught.

Good luck

cheers

[Bird]

It's very clear that 'passing a licence test' is not enough and frankly was not enough 30 plus years ago when I got my licence.

we have found the problem.
The other big issue with Gen whatevertheyareupto is they know everything. You can't teach them if they wont listen. As said, you can talk until you die, but if they don't want to listen and take it in then you may as well try and light a fire underwater using paper.

I like many others grew up in paddock bashers with mates doing stupid things that would make my hair fall out if I saw Cammo doing it. But we learnt how to slide around for days on end... Yea we smashed em up a bit, but that was the idea when your 14

Living in a small town with no cop shop for 15klms I used to drive to the shops and mates places regularly before having a license.

[chester ver2.0]

Hello peoples,

I have  said it now for many years that all young drivers need to be taught to drive a car sideways.

Getting into a skid is always the easy part, been able to control the car in the skid and recover is the hard part.

I hope i never meet you or your kids on the road what you have said is the biggest load of BS i have heard. Behavioural change and skid avoidance is what should be aimed for. Once in a skid minimising impact speed is your only goal these old school teaching of i will just power out of it are utterly stupid
1. Drive slow and controlled enough not to skid (sorry but oil and water on the road is not an excuse)
2. If you do skid try to wash off as much speed as possible and let the driver aids do what they can
3. Any car an inexperienced driver is in should have ABS as a minimum

Sorry for the rant i was an OHS manager with an international FMCG company focussing on driver safety for 5 years and this above backwads logic that i heard all the time just S##Ts me

[edz]

Unfortunitely relying on ABS and other driver aides  can cause  their own problems by dumbing the steerer into a false belief of abilities they dont have,when they do get into a predicament .

[cp]

One of the best advice I got was "know whats in front of you, not just the vehicle in front but 3 or 4 vehicles in front of it to give you a good indication on the traffic condition and drive accordingly.

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[Pog]

When I was 21, my company put me through a 'Defensive Driver' course, provided by the RAA in Adelaide.

At first, I thought it was a load of crap, and that I was a far better driver than they could possibly make me....

I was wrong! It teaches you how to observe potential risks, leave enough room in front and around you to get out of trouble - or to not get into trouble in the 1st place.

It teaches you to anticipate what other drivers are going to do, even when they dont know what they are doing.

I walked away from that course as a cocky 21 year old male driver, that had just waisted a day (lucky the company paid me to be there...)

HOWEVER, ever since then, small bits of skill & knowledge that I picked up that day keep filtering back to me 12 years later, and I have never been involved in an accident. Perhaps it is good luck, but perhaps it is because I am a defensive driver, that knows how to assess potential risks, anticipate the moves of other idiotic drivers and have been trained how to handle a car. (without going near a skid pan). As cp says above, defensive driving (good driving) is about watching the traffic 4 - 5 cars in front of you.

I agree with Dazzler on this one, that while I understand that it is difficult to put a wise head on young shoulders, A defensive driver course would giver her the knowledge and skills to avoid getting into a situation where you need to lock up the tyres.

[Bird]

I hope i never meet you or your kids on the road what you have said is the biggest load of BS i have heard.

"Getting into a skid is always the easy part, been able to control the car in the skid and recover is the hard part."
Sounds pretty fair to me...

[Mallory Black]

Oh well the owner of the dog she swerved to miss has offered to help with costs, that's something

[Bird]

Oh well the owner of the dog she swerved to miss has offered to help with costs, that's something

Very decent of them. Most times they disappear like a fart in the wind

[FNQBunyip]

+1 for the defensive coarse ... My daughter has also had a couple of wake up calls .. First one was total lack of concentration / failing to properly look and was T boned .  The wreck is still in our yard as a reminder , and parts ...
2nd she lost it on loose gravel on a corner , too fast for the conditions ...only minor front end damage and tire off the bead , but shook her up big time ...

Mt cotton send trainers up too cairns a couple of times a year , a good mate of mine gave her a check made out to them for her 18th .. She went along and I'm sure she has learned from that .. she seem more observant than before .. She turns 19 on Friday .

I like the idea of flogging around in a paddock , but she was never into it , I tried too get her to do hand brake slide ect when learning too drive but its not her thing .She has been driving since she was about 11, but just around the farm or down our road to visit and never wanted too fang it around.Then when she got her "P's " she just took off , always right on the limit ..

 When I meet her mum she didn't drive too well on the dirt , we were living on a big wheat farm in WA , after a few sessions out in the stubble in the "Mean green jelly bean " (HZ 308 ) she was much improved and I could sit in the passenger seat ...

I know your pain we worry about them all the time .All we want is for them is to live a happy safe and healthy life ...


And Chester version 2.0  your part of the bloody problem , OH&S all good on paper in your office in the ivory tower . try the real world .. I'll back Duggies driving school and theory over yours any day .. But that's just MPO

Cheers

[doc evil]

Either that or we join a car club that does grass gymkhana.

Bingo....................we have a winner. You answered your own question.

You can pay thru the nose for defensive driver courses but it's only for the day............the club motorkhanas will be weekend after weekend of experience at a very low cost.

Worked for my 2 boys (they started at 15), and my neighbor's sister after she pranged his car.