Post by: JD-120 on July 13, 2018, 07:20:10 PM
just wondering if there is any sparkies in the Myswag forum that may be able to help me determine if a quote is legit or not.
I have recently just put a fly over roof on my house to cover a deck. The roof is a 50mm insulated tin roof. Conduit is already run between the roofing panels.
I want to put 4 x led down lights in the roof, with a 360 degree sensor attached. This all runs back the the front door to an existing 4 switch panel. Quote includes a new 4 switch contraption thingo.
quote was $1400 which surprised the sh!t out of me for 4 lights. Not sure what i was expecting, but it certainly wasnt that.
Is this in the ball park or is this guy just taking the p1ss?
Cheers
JD
Post by: JD-120 on July 13, 2018, 07:21:08 PM
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Post by: Bird on July 13, 2018, 07:26:02 PM
What is the break down on the quote? if there isnt one, ask for one.
Get more quotes.
Post by: JD-120 on July 13, 2018, 07:34:19 PM
no break-down, I asked for one, no response as of yet. Kind of not expecting him to reply. I googled a few lights that I thought suitable for the job, couldn't find anything over $30.
Post by: markg66 on July 13, 2018, 07:39:29 PM
Post by: SEADOO on July 13, 2018, 07:40:23 PM
Then just ask a local Sparkie to sing by after work to wire them up for a quick cash job.
I always use the FB community pages and seek recommendations from other users. Most times I have found a local semi retirees tradie doing odd jobs.
Post by: glenm64 on July 13, 2018, 07:42:26 PM
Cheers Glen
Post by: SEADOO on July 13, 2018, 07:45:35 PM
He will pay $25 for a wall switch, then invoice you $50....
He will pay $15 dollars a metre for cabling, then charge you 40 a metre.....
Throw in labour at $145 an hour......
See where m going 😉
You can save bulk coin if you purchase your own gear, won't be trade rates, but it would be cheaper than what a Sparkie will charge you.
Post by: JD-120 on July 13, 2018, 07:48:35 PM
Inside trade tip. My BIL is a Sparkei by trade and I've helped him out on some jobs doing some labouring for him in exchange for work to my place.
He will pay $25 for a wall switch, then invoice you $50....
He will pay $15 dollars a metre for cabling, then charge you 40 a metre.....
Throw in labour at $145 an hour......
See where m going 😉
You can save bulk coin if you purchase your own gear, won't be trade rates, but it would be cheaper than what a Sparkie will charge you.
thanks SEADOO, some good advice there. I've got someone to call Monday from MarkG66 on Monday and will also see about getting some lights and switch;s myself.
Post by: SEADOO on July 13, 2018, 07:56:26 PM
If you know exactly what you want, go and buy it all at Bunnings (that's where the Sparkie will buy it anyway if he doesn't have an account at the local wholesaler).
Good excuse to put a BBQ on and invite ya mates over to give you a hand, the all the Sparkie has to do is just wire it all up. I'd do the lights, run the cabling/conduit and get him to terminate each end.
Post by: vern on July 13, 2018, 08:52:00 PM
$30 tops per down light with a quick connect plug base.
$120 tops for a GOOD sensor.
$40 ish for a switch.
$20 in cable tops.
That's about what i would quote it as
And I am a sparky
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Post by: nab on July 14, 2018, 01:05:57 AM
Personally I wouldn’t connect up some random person’s wiring.
Post by: bruce93 on July 14, 2018, 09:36:50 AM
I dont agree with what Seadoo has said to do.
Being a sparkie is a licensed trade for a reason. When a sparkie completes his work he is saying he has done it to the standard and regulations that we have to follow. He will issue a certificate of electrical safety to say it is all safe.
I think you will find it hard to find a sparkie who is happy for you to do the work, then they come and wire it up and say its safe and issue a certificate.
I definitely wouldnt
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Post by: Bird on July 14, 2018, 10:10:20 AM
Quote from: glenm64
and for that money Id want crystal chandeliers.:cup: :cup: :cup: :cup: :cup: :cup:
Post by: Paddler Ed on July 14, 2018, 10:18:45 AM
You can buy steak for $25ish/kg, so why pay $30 for the 400g one on the menu?
I'm sorry, but if you're asking a trade to do the work, let them supply the stuff.
Having spoken to someone the other day about parts, he was saying that if he gets them and after fitting there's a problem with them (after being told they're the right ones) then he can get paid to remove and replace them with the correct ones by the supplier... not the customer.
Post by: JD-120 on July 14, 2018, 10:24:19 AM
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Post by: tryagain on July 14, 2018, 11:23:53 AM
Do you take your own steak to cook at the restaurant?
You can buy steak for $25ish/kg, so why pay $30 for the 400g one on the menu?
I'm sorry, but if you're asking a trade to do the work, let them supply the stuff.
Having spoken to someone the other day about parts, he was saying that if he gets them and after fitting there's a problem with them (after being told they're the right ones) then he can get paid to remove and replace them with the correct ones by the supplier... not the customer.
No, but I will BYO to a BYO restraunt but neither is really analogous, I would always get a sparky to separate the materials and the labour in the quote, and then decide if I wanted to provide my own, if he didn't want to do it that way then I am sure there would be others who would. I know someone who recently got a few quotes to do some electrical work all three said upfront that either they could provide or the owner could supply without even being asked. They did point to some good suppliers to go to as well.
The sparky's comment about warranty seems fair though and would likely legally be the case no matter who supplied the materials.
Post by: corndog on July 14, 2018, 01:15:31 PM
Post by: Troopy_03 on July 14, 2018, 01:59:12 PM
The easily fit in the 50mm insulated roof panels, are dimmable, and throw out a heap of light. With two warm white, in a 6M X 4M area, at a height of 3M, I had to fit a dimmer, because they were too bright for comfortable lazy beer consumption.
Actually, because the LED lights run off 24V from the transformer, there's nothing to stop you fitting them yourself, and get the sparky to wire in the switch and dimmer (Be mindfull of leaving a space around them as per the diagram). I extended the wire between the transformer and the light (twin sheathed 4mm auto cable), so that the transformer sits in the roof space, so all the sparky had to do was wire straight up inside the wall, and into the roof space adjacent to the patio roof.
Post by: SEADOO on July 14, 2018, 05:18:51 PM
I agree that price is steep for what is required.
I dont agree with what Seadoo has said to do.
Being a sparkie is a licensed trade for a reason. When a sparkie completes his work he is saying he has done it to the standard and regulations that we have to follow. He will issue a certificate of electrical safety to say it is all safe.
I think you will find it hard to find a sparkie who is happy for you to do the work, then they come and wire it up and say its safe and issue a certificate.
I definitely wouldnt
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Need to get a good one to turn up first. Unfortunately, there is no money in domestic jobs.
My mate that I have helped out a few times, he will only do commercial or industrial jobs.
The $1400 quote, is ludicrous.
Post by: briann532 on July 14, 2018, 06:09:55 PM
For $1200.00 I'd fly up there and do it for you!!!!
Seriously, what the heck?
We've all got to make money but wow. As a previous poster said, he doesn't want the job and if you give it to him he'll do it for the win.
Just try find an honest tradie and move on.
Cheers
Brian
Post by: Bird on July 14, 2018, 06:46:31 PM
Post by: nab on July 14, 2018, 07:17:04 PM
bloke I work with has renno'ed a few houses nad runs all his own wiring and then finds a sparky to finish it off.. I dont see any issue with it personally.. the sparky is going to check it all out and test Shit. and ol' mate isnt going to do anything to risk burning down his house
99.9% will be OK, but what is hidden behind a wall/underground/in concrete etc can not be checked. I have tested a house and no electrical issues found, went into the roofspace and found a live cable just left cut and un-terminated in the roof. Looks as if there was supposed to be a powerpoint there for an alarm or similar. No testing will have ever picked it up as unless it touches something it will not cause issues.
*** Can't confirm if it was DIY or a sparky that did it, judging by the other wiring and Bunnings DETA products I am leaning towards DIY...***
Doesn't really matter though, anyone competent can (and no doubt will continue to) wire a house, I just won't sign off on it haha!
Post by: corndog on July 14, 2018, 09:17:42 PM
bloke I work with has renno'ed a few houses nad runs all his own wiring and then finds a sparky to finish it off.. I dont see any issue with it personally.. the sparky is going to check it all out and test Shit. and ol' mate isnt going to do anything to risk burning down his house
The bloke you work with can be fined if he is found to be doing electrical work. Any sparky that signs off this type of work should have a good look at himself. Ol' mate is no longer a mate when his house burns down and he points the finger at the sparky who signed it off.
Post by: gronk on July 14, 2018, 10:26:38 PM
The bloke you work with can be fined if he is found to be doing electrical work. Any sparky that signs off this type of work should have a good look at himself. Ol' mate is no longer a mate when his house burns down and he points the finger at the sparky who signed it off.
And that's why, as an electrical fitter ( not licensed ) I stopped doing love jobs years ago for "mates"..
Post by: Bird on July 15, 2018, 12:07:04 AM
The bloke you work with can be fined if he is found to be doing electrical workhes running wires, hes not doing any electrical work. guess we all better stop changing tyres when they are flat too.
Post by: bruce93 on July 15, 2018, 08:35:07 AM
hes running wires, hes not doing any electrical work. guess we all better stop changing tyres when they are flat too.Bird even to run wires you need to be an electrician. Went to a job and cables had already been run by workers of the company. Spoke to ESV and they said it is illegal for anyone who isnt an electrician or electrical apprentice to run cables
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Post by: vern on July 15, 2018, 08:40:25 AM
hes running wires, hes not doing any electrical work. guess we all better stop changing tyres when they are flat too.Is he running to correctly?
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Post by: macca on July 15, 2018, 08:42:33 AM
hes running wires, hes not doing any electrical work. guess we all better stop changing tyres when they are flat too.Being a mechanic by trade i could only dream of the automotive industry being as regulated as the electrical and plumbing trades, imagining the money that i would have made if it was illegal for owners to work on their vehicles, oh well dream on macca.
Thats why i got out of the trade and went into machinery maintenance and installation.
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Post by: macca on July 15, 2018, 09:17:14 AM
Bird even to run wires you need to be an electrician. Went to a job and cables had already been run by workers of the company. Spoke to ESV and they said it is illegal for anyone who isnt an electrician or electrical apprentice to run cablesWell if that is the case then they should make it illegal for domestic guys to work on commercial stuff. Not so long ago i was installing a new machine beside a frustrated and rather vocal electrician working on an existing machine that was faulty, as i walked passed him, looking over his shoulder i could see a TOL out and politely said to him "its probably popped a TOL mate" he replied "what you talking about old man" , gob smacked, i handed him my phone and replied " google is your friend, you should understand that mate"
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Post by: vern on July 15, 2018, 10:26:04 AM
Well if that is the case then they should make it illegal for domestic guys to work on commercial stuff. Not so long ago i was installing a new machine beside a frustrated and rather vocal electrician working on an existing machine that was faulty, as i walked passed him, looking over his shoulder i could see a TOL out and politely said to him "its probably popped a TOL mate" he replied "what you talking about old man" , gob smacked, i handed him my phone and replied " google is your friend, you should understand that mate"Is there such things as domestic and commercial or industrial electricians? I do all types of electrical work, which category do i fit in?
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If its out of their league or experience, don't touch it or pretend to know what you are doing, or if they are trying to learn and get more experience in different aspects then that is great, learn away.
But i do know what you are saying, i have had industrial only workers ask me how to wire a two way, now that is very concerning.
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Post by: Bigfish on July 15, 2018, 11:05:00 AM
Post by: corndog on July 15, 2018, 12:14:45 PM
hes running wires, hes not doing any electrical work. guess we all better stop changing tyres when they are flat too.
If you can't see the difference between electrical work and changing tyres the call the RACV next time you get a flat.
Post by: macca on July 15, 2018, 12:57:56 PM
If you can't see the difference between electrical work and changing tyres the call the RACV next time you get a flat.If the automotive trade was regulated to the level that the electrical trade is then you would probably have to
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Post by: corndog on July 15, 2018, 01:12:08 PM
Post by: macca on July 15, 2018, 01:41:45 PM
So should we de-regulate the electrical industry and open it up to every DIYer ?No, no, regulate the automotive industry
Its been done in other countries to some extent and if you go and stand in the electrical aisle at Bunnings i think you will soon seen its already happening here.
Seriously though i believe there still needs to be regulation but in some areas it could be relaxed a bit.
I went and got an electrical disconnect/reconnect licence (dunno what their called now) years ago what a waste of time that was.
Anyway i know I'm never going to win this argument, i took my trailer build to my canvas guy yesterday and for the first weekend in two and half years i have nothing to do and am spending too much time on here, so I'll bow out now
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Post by: corndog on July 15, 2018, 01:57:41 PM
Post by: corndog on July 15, 2018, 02:07:08 PM
Inside trade tip. My BIL is a Sparkei by trade and I've helped him out on some jobs doing some labouring for him in exchange for work to my place.
He will pay $25 for a wall switch, then invoice you $50....
He will pay $15 dollars a metre for cabling, then charge you 40 a metre.....
Throw in labour at $145 an hour......
See where m going 😉
You can save bulk coin if you purchase your own gear, won't be trade rates, but it would be cheaper than what a Sparkie will charge you.
Your BIL sounds like a crook :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Post by: macca on July 15, 2018, 02:26:55 PM
I don't know why there isn't more control in that industry but what is it you control and how would it be policed. Even if it was every 2nd guy out there is a DIY mechanic.Thats easy you guys have already made the template, ban everything then instill into every registered mechanic that their wives and kids will starve if you let anybody change that.
Said with tounge firmly implanted in cheek, and im definitely finished this time, sorry
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Post by: gronk on July 15, 2018, 04:59:08 PM
i have had industrial only workers ask me how to wire a two way, now that is very concerning.
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I worked in coal mines all my life, and although I do know how to wire a 2 way, it's not something I've ever needed to do.
Same as a house lecco wouldn't have a clue how to troubleshoot on machines that you aren't allowed to work on live..
BTW, I'm an electrical fitter, not a qualified electrician, even though I have done an electrical supervisors tafe course...long story, too complicated to explain !!
Post by: MDS69 on July 15, 2018, 05:38:07 PM
Post by: Symon on July 15, 2018, 06:28:47 PM
Inside trade tip. My BIL is a Sparkei by trade and I've helped him out on some jobs doing some labouring for him in exchange for work to my place.
He will pay $25 for a wall switch, then invoice you $50....
He will pay $15 dollars a metre for cabling, then charge you 40 a metre.....
Throw in labour at $145 an hour......
See where m going 😉
You can save bulk coin if you purchase your own gear, won't be trade rates, but it would be cheaper than what a Sparkie will charge you.
Your BIL is talking out of his arse. In reality he would get a double outlet for about $3 at trade price, and he charges you $7 at list price. You get a piece of crap DETA outlet from Bunnings for $7 and think to yourself 'man I saved some money'.
I don't do contracting work, but if I did there is no way I would ever install customer supplied equipment. Too much of a risk and I like to keep my licence.
hes running wires, hes not doing any electrical work. guess we all better stop changing tyres when they are flat too.
Running 230V fixed wiring is electrical work.
Just like most if not all trades you will have trade trained “tradesman” who aren’t worth a pinch of you know what and then also have others who don’t have trade training and have dabbled in a particular field who have better knowledge or skills than some licensed people.
And that means.... stuff all.
Sure there are shonky's in any industry, the difference is that one is paid to do the work, and if it is sub standard then they are liable.
Post by: vern on July 15, 2018, 07:33:50 PM
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Post by: vern on July 15, 2018, 07:36:22 PM
I worked in coal mines all my life, and although I do know how to wire a 2 way, it's not something I've ever needed to do.Trouble shooting on machinery that is not live vs wiring a two way, really aren't even a close comparison!
Same as a house lecco wouldn't have a clue how to troubleshoot on machines that you aren't allowed to work on live..
BTW, I'm an electrical fitter, not a qualified electrician, even though I have done an electrical supervisors tafe course...long story, too complicated to explain !!
You learn how to do a 2 way in your first year of your apprenticeship.
But i do get what you are saying
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Post by: briann532 on July 15, 2018, 08:12:08 PM
$3 for a double gpo, where? I will buy 1000
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And when they catch fire, can I come quote to do it properly?
God I love DETA...……
It helps me sort the trash from the treasure in a glance.
Post by: gronk on July 15, 2018, 08:14:08 PM
!
You learn how to do a 2 way in your first year of your apprenticeship.
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Would they teach you something that simple ?? ;D
Post by: vern on July 15, 2018, 08:54:48 PM
And when they catch fire, can I come quote to do it properly?
God I love DETA...……
It helps me sort the trash from the treasure in a glance.
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Post by: vern on July 15, 2018, 08:55:56 PM
Would they teach you something that simple ?? ;D
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Post by: gronk on July 15, 2018, 09:56:23 PM
Gee I can't remember to be honest, i did mine a long time ago, think they just expect you to know
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42 yrs ago for me.....I'm flat out remembering which tafe I went to ?? ;D
Post by: GBC on July 16, 2018, 07:06:49 AM
And when they catch fire, can I come quote to do it properly?It’s not only the electrical aisle that’s a goldmine for proper tradesmen. I’ve lost count of the number of water damage claims I’ve been called to assess and at the source is a generic flick mixer with generic, recently split, flex lines, and the telltale Shitty tiling of a weekend warrior.
God I love DETA...……
It helps me sort the trash from the treasure in a glance.
I was called to another ‘emergency’ where the ceilings had fallen in during a rain event. Turns out old mate had saved a few bob and installed his own skylight. Only problem was he overflashed the tiles above rather than underflashed and turned his loungeroom into a water feature - no insurance mate.
I’ve seen various home made efforts at electrical wiring as well and when I shut down your job a few years later when you want Reno’s done and call in the relevent authority to investigate I can guarantee it’s going to cost more than it would to do it properly in the first place.
Post by: BaseCamp on July 16, 2018, 10:49:30 AM
I remember 'almost apologising' sheepishly one time to them about my lack of ability...
John said don't worry; unless you really know what you are doing - it's wiser to get it done professionally...
Then he added - he's seen a surprising number of DIYers bring their vans in for a fix up - after they have had a crack at something themselves... and then when he sees the client's van - its got a gaping hole through the wall; or some other calamity....
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Post by: Pottsy on July 16, 2018, 11:22:14 AM
Post by: hefty_merv on July 16, 2018, 12:40:44 PM
All you do then is plug in a 240v plug to a licensed installation.
This is how we had it done on the underside of our house.
Post by: GBC on July 16, 2018, 01:13:10 PM
On that point - not competently able to turn my hand to DIY anything on my van; (ie: install a sky window over the bed; do a nice job installing 2 Saroco fans; install a TV bracket on the outside kitchen; run some 10mm from the A frame; etc) - I always pay LCT to do the work...
I remember 'almost apologising' sheepishly one time to them about my lack of ability...
John said don't worry; unless you really know what you are doing - it's wiser to get it done professionally...
Then he added - he's seen a surprising number of DIYers bring their vans in for a fix up - after they have had a crack at something themselves... and then when he sees the client's van - its got a gaping hole through the wall; or some other calamity....
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There's a plumber's van getting around Brisbane with "We repair what your husband fixed on the weekend" on the side - so true.
I'll fess up, when I was younger and crazier I had a rental property we were doing up. The Mrs shows up with a couple of oyster lights from Bunnings to replace a couple of fluros - how hard could it possibly be? haha - the fluros had 4 holes for wires in the back and the oyster lights had three holes, so sh!t for brains twitches the two black wires together, shoves them in the corresponding black hole (red and green in the other two), fit the lights, cruise downstairs, flick the breaker and snap, crackle pop - half a house worth of wiring instantly melts, smokes up and needs rewiring. I could so easily have killed somebody or burned the house down. An expensive lesson learned cheap.
Post by: galah on July 16, 2018, 05:15:25 PM
Then you can run the wires yourself legally. Unlikely to be more than 1-2 hundred dollars for all the bits.
Post by: vern on July 16, 2018, 07:24:05 PM
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Post by: rags on July 16, 2018, 07:44:17 PM
It’s not only the electrical aisle that’s a goldmine for proper tradesmen. I’ve lost count of the number of water damage claims I’ve been called to assess and at the source is a generic flick mixer with generic, recently split, flex lines, and the telltale Shitty tiling of a weekend warrior.
The " generic flick mixer and generic easy hooker hoses" are not limited to the weekend warrior.
Plumbers all over Australia are using by the bucket load. Plumbers long forgot how to pull a radius bend on a bit of chrome tube with the rigid benders.
In fact you can't hook a flick mixer tap without the use of a hose. The hoses fail for 3 reasons
1 twisted and kinked. 2 excess pressure and 3 because of the stainless braiding corroding because of the chemicals like spray n wipe stored in the same cupboard.
My recommendation is to ensure leak stop control valves are installed when using hoses.
Post by: JD-120 on July 16, 2018, 08:02:03 PM
Now I would have to find my reg book, it's been a while, but how are the cables going to be run in a 50mm cavity?
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Conduit has been run between the sheets during construction. ready for someone to come along and "Let there be light"
Post by: Troopy_03 on July 17, 2018, 11:36:27 AM
Now I would have to find my reg book, it's been a while, but how are the cables going to be run in a 50mm cavity?
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That's why I extended the 24VDC cable (between LED driver and light) on mine, to 2.5M and put the drivers in the house roof cavity. With low current, there's very little voltage drop, and lights are still very bright.
Post by: Rhojef on July 17, 2018, 12:00:24 PM
My husband has had the water turned off all day to install a new vanity. I have no water to cook dinner or to wash the kids. Off I go to check it out.
Husband had no idea about anything and this was before plumbquicks were around.
Told him I'd seal the connections today get the water on and be back tomorrow to finish the vanity install.
When I told them the price for a callout on a Sunday afternoon the husband started to arc up and the wife ripped shreds off him right into front of me. It was worth the effort just to see his face.
Post by: Rumpig on July 17, 2018, 05:05:07 PM
So should we de-regulate the electrical industry and open it up to every DIYer ?no, but atleast teach them to stop drilling timber out like Swiss cheese.... many are clueless as to what a structural member is on a house, and think it’s ok to drill and cut out what ever they like to run some cable.
Post by: vern on July 17, 2018, 06:02:19 PM
no, but atleast teach them to stop drilling timber out like Swiss cheese.... many are clueless as to what a structural member is on a house, and think it’s ok to drill and cut out what ever they like to run some cable.Meh, the plaster will hold it up
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Post by: Rumpig on July 17, 2018, 06:06:14 PM
Meh, the plaster will hold it uphave done termite damage repair before where that pretty much was the case....not sure what was really holding the structural beam up on that place, all it's supports had been eaten out to about 1200mm high.
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Post by: austastar on July 17, 2018, 09:52:40 PM
Plasterer ' s revenge.
1) Cut a length of cable that looks spare.
2) Nail it to a stud.
3) Pass it through a sheet of plaster.
4) Fasten and finish sheet
5) Deny every thing.
Cheers
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Post by: JD-120 on July 23, 2018, 07:14:08 PM
nearly 1k savings, that just paid for part of my fuel for me Cape Trip!!!
Post by: vern on July 23, 2018, 07:29:31 PM
new quote, $550, suspicion confirmed.That's about what i priced it at for you.
nearly 1k savings, that just paid for part of my fuel for me Cape Trip!!!
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Post by: prodigyrf on July 24, 2018, 01:27:08 AM
The " generic flick mixer and generic easy hooker hoses" are not limited to the weekend warrior.
Plumbers all over Australia are using by the bucket load. Plumbers long forgot how to pull a radius bend on a bit of chrome tube with the rigid benders.
In fact you can't hook a flick mixer tap without the use of a hose. The hoses fail for 3 reasons
1 twisted and kinked. 2 excess pressure and 3 because of the stainless braiding corroding because of the chemicals like spray n wipe stored in the same cupboard.
My recommendation is to ensure leak stop control valves are installed when using hoses.
Not quite rags- http://www.plumberschoice.com.au/Mixer-Tail-Pair-Pex-Lined-400mm (http://www.plumberschoice.com.au/Mixer-Tail-Pair-Pex-Lined-400mm)
You buy some Chinese taps off fleabay and they have braided rubber hoses unlike some of the expensive Euro stuff with that and look out but I did notice the other day Bunnings Kinetic braided hose range are 5 year warranty and now recommend they be changed at 5 years and they have a date tag on them for you to fill in for the purpose ;D
Sparky son was just doing some work for a couple who've been out of their home for 6 months after a hose burst while they were away on hols. Brick veneer so off with the skirts and aves and plasterboard cut 600mm off the floor all round and 3 months minimum while it dries out before any remediation works begin so they've been in a renter compliments of their insurer while it's all sorted :'(
Post by: prodigyrf on July 24, 2018, 01:33:40 AM
Post by: prodigyrf on July 24, 2018, 01:50:21 AM
https://www.accc.gov.au/update/infinity-cable-recall-act-now-before-its-too-late (https://www.accc.gov.au/update/infinity-cable-recall-act-now-before-its-too-late)
Post by: Troopy_03 on July 24, 2018, 09:55:52 AM
You want my sparky son to hitch up your cheap cables and lights rather than the ones he gets guaranteed by his electrical wholesaler then you're dreaming buster-
https://www.accc.gov.au/update/infinity-cable-recall-act-now-before-its-too-late (https://www.accc.gov.au/update/infinity-cable-recall-act-now-before-its-too-late)
The thing is, some of that cable was also supplied by wholesalers. So even tradies installed it, before the recall. Tradies were also responsible for replacing the installed dodgy cable. I wonder if they all did?
Post by: tryagain on July 24, 2018, 12:25:34 PM
The thing is, some of that cable was also supplied by wholesalers. So even tradies installed it, before the recall. Tradies were also responsible for replacing the installed dodgy cable. I wonder if they all did?
This, but I would say the vast majority of it was installed by licenced Sparky's, not really a DIY vs trade issue at all.
Post by: rags on July 24, 2018, 07:06:39 PM
Not quite rags- http://www.plumberschoice.com.au/Mixer-Tail-Pair-Pex-Lined-400mm (http://www.plumberschoice.com.au/Mixer-Tail-Pair-Pex-Lined-400mm)
You buy some Chinese taps off fleabay and they have braided rubber hoses unlike some of the expensive Euro stuff with that and look out but I did notice the other day Bunnings Kinetic braided hose range are 5 year warranty and now recommend they be changed at 5 years and they have a date tag on them for you to fill in for the purpose ;D
:'(
Yes I'm aware of the version that plumbers choice sell but without a plumbers licence then that merchant won't sell them to you. They are one of the only merchants to restrict their product sales to trade only.
Post by: gronk on July 24, 2018, 08:21:55 PM
Yes I'm aware of the version that plumbers choice sell but without a plumbers licence then that merchant won't sell them to you. They are one of the only merchants to restrict their product sales to trade only.
They won't sell some braided hoses that need a shifter to undo and do up ??
Next they'll be saying you can't change a light bulb unless you're licensed !!
Post by: rags on July 24, 2018, 09:03:23 PM
They won't sell some braided hoses that need a shifter to undo and do up ??
Next they'll be saying you can't change a light bulb unless you're licensed !!
How do you expect plumbers to be able to afford a 4wd and caravan, a house at the beach and another on a river somewhere if we allow anyone to do plumbing work.😃
That's why it is considered a specialist trade and regulated as such.
Like a lightbulb we will let the homeowner change a tap washer though no problems.
Post by: pjmowens on July 24, 2018, 09:31:13 PM
To place directly in and surrounded by building structure/ insulation you would need lights rated to a minimum of “IC-F”. Insulated roofing panel is generally EPS (not fire retardant).Not many off the shelf’s are IC-F.
I’m not saying that this would justify such a high price of the initial quote but it would justify using a licensed electrician...
Post by: gronk on July 24, 2018, 10:17:48 PM
That's why it is considered a specialist trade and regulated as such.
Like a lightbulb we will let the homeowner change a tap washer though no problems.
Ha ha...I think a tap washer is more complicated than a braided hose.
Post by: Cruiser 105Tvan on July 24, 2018, 11:35:41 PM
If there's a power socket in the roof space over the Bathroom, you can self-install an extractor fan.
Nearly all of them come with plugs on their lead now.
If you get one with no plug on the lead, it has to be fitted by a sparkie, in Vic..
Post by: tryagain on July 25, 2018, 12:01:35 AM
Post by: BaseCamp on July 25, 2018, 06:39:38 AM
AUST etc - 240vt = BBQ Chickens
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Post by: Symon on July 25, 2018, 07:16:38 AM
I read an article from about 5 yrs ago from memory, it compared a lot of other western countries (most of them allowing DIY wiring) to Australia where you aren't. Australia was statistically no better off accident wise, in fact, NZ which uses the same standards and allowed it was statistically safer than Australia. Call me sceptical but I have always thought it was as much about supply and demand and being able to keep charging the big $$$ as it is about safety. After all, if they allowed handymen to change the few wires of a light fitting then some (not all) sparkies would be undercut and have to reduce their prices drastically.It wasn't in Silicon Chip was it? They were on a bit of a mission to allow DIY some years ago.
If you adjust for the differences in population then the NZ argument falls over as the per capita fatality rate is higher than Oz. Even so there are still restrictions on DIY in NZ, it isn't a free for all.
The other thing is that if you exclude the NT then the per capita fatality rate drops significantly in Oz.
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Post by: corndog on July 25, 2018, 09:16:40 AM
USA - 110vt = usually won't kill ya...
AUST etc - 240vt = BBQ Chickens
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Grab hold of a 110vt supply and then tell me it won't kill ya..... That's if you are still alive.
Post by: BaseCamp on July 25, 2018, 09:36:24 AM
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Post by: tryagain on July 25, 2018, 09:50:46 AM
It wasn't in Silicon Chip was it? They were on a bit of a mission to allow DIY some years ago.
If you adjust for the differences in population then the NZ argument falls over as the per capita fatality rate is higher than Oz. Even so there are still restrictions on DIY in NZ, it isn't a free for all.
The other thing is that if you exclude the NT then the per capita fatality rate drops significantly in Oz.
I can't remember where it was to be honest, I would have thought though if the figures weren't per capita I wouldn't have taken any notice of them at the time though, a quick google search brings up some old information but a lot of the figures would require deeper delving into the data to analyse for it for an accurate comparison, (and I can't be bothered but happy to look if someone already has). I am sure if you removed NZ worst province that would also skew the data, so I am not sure that removing the NT would make for a more accurate comparison.
Just had a look at what you are allowed to DIY in NZ https://worksafe.govt.nz/managing-health-and-safety/consumers/safe-living-with-electricity/getting-electrical-work-done/doing-your-own-electrical-work/ and I certainly wouldn't advocate for more than what they are allowed to do, but I do think their laws and approach of education over regulation are more common sense than ours.
Post by: Symon on July 25, 2018, 03:27:58 PM
If the NT wasn't so disproportionately high with their stats I would agree with your thoughts, but the numbers clearly show there is an issue there that isn't present in other states.
Having looked at the most recent data there isn't enough there to make a claim that NZ is any better or worse than AU.
I am an advocate of a certain amount of DIY, but not to the extent that NZ allows and certainly not what is permitted in the EU.
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Post by: Troopy_03 on July 25, 2018, 03:54:20 PM
Go a bit further Gronk.
If there's a power socket in the roof space over the Bathroom, you can self-install an extractor fan.
Nearly all of them come with plugs on their lead now.
If you get one with no plug on the lead, it has to be fitted by a sparkie, in Vic..
Unless you fit your own 3 pin plug to it...
Post by: gronk on July 25, 2018, 06:23:01 PM
USA - 110vt = usually won't kill ya...
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Another big can of worms.....but any voltage above 50 to 60V ac is considered dangerous to your health. ( ie; may kill you )
Would I rather be hooked up to 110V compared to 240V......hell yeh, but I'm not sure I would live to tell the difference ??
Post by: corndog on July 25, 2018, 06:38:49 PM
Post by: macca on July 25, 2018, 06:48:26 PM
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Post by: JD-120 on July 25, 2018, 07:34:45 PM
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Post by: tryagain on July 25, 2018, 08:08:56 PM
The data is easy to find - http://erac.gov.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=94:accident-statistics&catid=82&Itemid=546 (http://erac.gov.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=94:accident-statistics&catid=82&Itemid=546)
If the NT wasn't so disproportionately high with their stats I would agree with your thoughts, but the numbers clearly show there is an issue there that isn't present in other states.
Having looked at the most recent data there isn't enough there to make a claim that NZ is any better or worse than AU.
I am an advocate of a certain amount of DIY, but not to the extent that NZ allows and certainly not what is permitted in the EU.
That is pretty digestible information, not really enough incidences to do any in-depth comparisons but on the surface, there isn't really much difference, so it would seem that allowing a level of DIY doesn't really create much if any of a safety issue in NZ and NZ would be on the generous side of things of what I think would be ideal to allow DIY to do too.
I can see from the graph what you mean in that the NT is definitely an outlier if you are doing a state-based comparison to NZ, but if you did a country level as they only account for about 5% of the accidents here it wouldn't make too much difference. I think that's where we were coming at it from different angles.
Post by: Troopy_03 on July 25, 2018, 10:09:49 PM
Another big can of worms.....but any voltage above 50 to 60V ac is considered dangerous to your health. ( ie; may kill you )
Would I rather be hooked up to 110V compared to 240V......hell yeh, but I'm not sure I would live to tell the difference ??
Yep, a lot of variables involved. How dry are your hands (sweaty etc), how thick and calloused is the skin where it contacts the voltage. Whether the current path is across your body, or just across a couple of fingers.
Worst shock I ever got was disconnecting something in an aircraft, many years ago. 115V @ 400Hz, but I was laying full length on the metal floor, and was covered in sweat at the time. That bl@@dy hurt.
Been bit by 240V mains a couple of times (knocked me on me bum, both times). One of those times was in a customers lounge room. I went to pick up a TV that had stopped working, and as slid my hand down behind the cabinet, to unplug it, boom, and I was seeing stars. Their bloody pet rabbit had chewed through the power lead, exposing bare wires. How the rabbit didn't get killed I don't know. The woman says "You nearly gave me a heart attack then" ???
Been bit by 25,000VDC heaps, when working on old TVs and Radars (quickest way to wake you up in the morning LOL) Probably the worst one that scares the crap out of me, is people trying to fix their own Microwave ovens. About 5,000 volts available at a pretty decent current. And I've had a few people try to buy fuses off me to do it, but refused to sell to them.
As for voltages that are considered a danger to your health, that's why they fit VRDs to welders in workshops these days. To drop the welder's unloaded terminal output below 35VDC, and 25VAC.
Post by: Spada on July 26, 2018, 07:09:43 AM
anyway, we're about 47 pages off topic from the opening question..............................and thats a nice looking porch.
Post by: JD-120 on July 26, 2018, 07:26:47 AM
Based on how crowded the electrical isle in dumbings is on any given Sunday morning, I'd suggest there is already a fair amount of DIY being done ? Probably as much as NZ, but it's just not legal here.Thanks spada, there's a new conqueror out the front of it now also
anyway, we're about 47 pages off topic from the opening question..............................and thats a nice looking porch.
. Finely got one after seeing yours at nymboida with markgu a few yrs back. 
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Post by: Spada on July 26, 2018, 09:06:12 AM
Thanks spada, there's a new conqueror out the front of it now also
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:cup:
Happy to help with and conqueror tips..................
Post by: austastar on July 26, 2018, 10:10:27 AM
. Their bloody pet rabbit had chewed through the power lead, exposing bare wires. How the rabbit didn't get killed I don't know.Hi,
Rabbits have a dry bite. Ours chewed through a 35A cable and blew the 15A circuit breaker with barely a scorched whisker.
You could smell the Ozone and scorch on his face though.
In the time that we had them, about 5 or 6 cables got severed despite our efforts to rabbit proof them.
Cheers
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Post by: Rumpig on July 26, 2018, 11:37:42 AM
Based on how crowded the electrical isle in dumbings is on any given Sunday morning, I'd suggest there is already a fair amount of DIY being done ? Probably as much as NZ, but it's just not legal here.why anyone would buy electrical stuff at Weekend Warrior World is beyond me, they can walk into a wholesaler and get it for half the price, and that’s without an account discount.
anyway, we're about 47 pages off topic from the opening question..............................and thats a nice looking porch.
Post by: tryagain on July 26, 2018, 11:53:50 AM
why anyone would buy electrical stuff at Weekend Warrior World is beyond me, they can walk into a wholesaler and get it for half the price, and that’s without an account discount.
I think this can vary dramatically, I have walked into some wholesaler's and got much better prices than you can get at Bunnings, I have also walked into them when they have tried to charge 2-3x what bunnings charge, always best to know the cost of what you want as wholesalers seldom advertise their prices.
Post by: macca on July 26, 2018, 12:43:03 PM
Based on how crowded the electrical isle in dumbings is on any given Sunday morning, I'd suggest there is already a fair amount of DIY being done ? Probably as much as NZ, but it's just not legal here.When they want to charge $1400 to put four lights on a porch you can understand why there is so much DIY going on if you were pushing top dollar you would be very lucky to have $200 worth of parts, i reckon with what i pay at a wholesaler it would be closer to $100
anyway, we're about 47 pages off topic from the opening question..............................and thats a nice looking porch.
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Post by: Bird on July 26, 2018, 01:16:53 PM
Quote from: Spada
Based on how crowded the electrical isle in dumbings is on any given Sunday morning, I'd suggest there is already a fair amount of DIY being done ?
Watch any TV "renno" show and its piss easy to do.. just throw this up there, cut that there, bang that on the wall, and shes done. Only takes an hour to rebuild 1/2 a house.
Post by: #jonesy on July 26, 2018, 05:22:24 PM
That is pretty digestible information, not really enough incidences to do any in-depth comparisons but on the surface, there isn't really much difference, so it would seem that allowing a level of DIY doesn't really create much if any of a safety issue in NZ and NZ would be on the generous side of things of what I think would be ideal to allow DIY to do too.NT figures are skewed because of the population. At 1/4 million people, each death represents 4 per million. So the big spike showing 10 is really only 2 or 3.
I can see from the graph what you mean in that the NT is definitely an outlier if you are doing a state-based comparison to NZ, but if you did a country level as they only account for about 5% of the accidents here it wouldn't make too much difference. I think that's where we were coming at it from different angles.
Post by: Rumpig on July 26, 2018, 06:01:02 PM
I think this can vary dramatically, I have walked into some wholesaler's and got much better prices than you can get at Bunnings, I have also walked into them when they have tried to charge 2-3x what bunnings charge, always best to know the cost of what you want as wholesalers seldom advertise their prices.recent purchases of outdoor double GPO's, conduit, LED downlights etc have all been about half the price of Bunnings at my local wholesaler. In saying that, my local Ideal electrical are quite expensive in general for me to walk into, so I go to CNW instead.
Post by: jmorgan1981 on July 26, 2018, 09:00:33 PM
If I am in a hurry I go between wholesalers and Bunnings. It just depends what I need.
As for getting electric shocks, it is the current (amps) that kills ya not the voltage. It takes about 30mA (0.03 Amps) of current to cause respiratory paralysis. About 75mA (.075 Amps) cause ventricular fibrillation (a defibrillator may save you) and about 4 Amps to cause you heart to stop.
Just remember gents your power points are good for 10 Amps.
Plus trade courses exist for a reason.
Post by: corndog on July 26, 2018, 09:32:28 PM
Post by: Symon on July 26, 2018, 09:55:08 PM
I think this can vary dramatically, I have walked into some wholesaler's and got much better prices than you can get at Bunnings, I have also walked into them when they have tried to charge 2-3x what bunnings charge, always best to know the cost of what you want as wholesalers seldom advertise their prices.
The guys at the trade counter have quite a bit of say on what the final price is. In my experience if they think you are a DIY guy then you won't be getting the good price - and why should you, as you are just undercutting all the tradies out there. I don't work in the trade anymore but I still maintain my licences, which come in handy when buying stuff wholesale.
As for getting electric shocks, it is the current (amps) that kills ya not the voltage. It takes about 30mA (0.03 Amps) of current to cause respiratory paralysis. About 75mA (.075 Amps) cause ventricular fibrillation (a defibrillator may save you) and about 4 Amps to cause you heart to stop.
Just remember gents your power points are good for 10 Amps.
So many things wrong there. The severity of a shock depends on many things such as body impedance, frequency, the current path and the duration of the shock. The risk of ventricular fibrillation increases with frequency (so AC is more dangerous than DC), body current and duration. However body impedance is non-linear, so it decreases significantly with an increase in voltage, so from that angle it is actually the voltage which is more the dominant factor. AS 60479.1 has a heap of information on this.
Anyways, a statement such as 'it isn't the volts that kill, it's the current' is incorrect. But don't take my word for it -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDf2nhfxVzg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDf2nhfxVzg)
Post by: gronk on July 26, 2018, 10:46:06 PM
Another big can of worms.....but any voltage above 50 to 60V ac is considered dangerous to your health. ( ie; may kill you )
As implied, lots of other factors involved.........and why I didn't want to open the can of worms !! 8) 8)
Post by: Troopy_03 on July 27, 2018, 03:14:59 AM
Post by: Pottsy on July 27, 2018, 07:53:55 AM
Post by: macca on July 27, 2018, 10:12:14 AM
Electricity KILLS. Not many get second chances!Then why dont they ban it
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Post by: Pottsy on July 27, 2018, 11:20:24 AM
Then why dont they ban it
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No need to ban it when your smoked and dead! :D
Post by: Paddler Ed on July 27, 2018, 04:32:57 PM
Post by: Pottsy on July 27, 2018, 05:10:47 PM
Been hit twice working on 240v in France.... I was told that it was off, checked it was off as well... sometimes in France though it's reverse polarity... I think those were reverse polarity....Se he's scrambled, brain like eggs now. ;D ;D :cheers:
Post by: briann532 on July 27, 2018, 08:22:14 PM
Then why dont they ban it
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Cos they make a squillion selling it.
Post by: macca on July 27, 2018, 10:14:36 PM
Cos they make a squillion selling it.Your not suggesting our government would put profit before our wellbeing are you? ...Oh hang on cigarettes, what was i thinking
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Post by: jmorgan1981 on July 28, 2018, 03:25:18 AM
The guys at the trade counter have quite a bit of say on what the final price is. In my experience if they think you are a DIY guy then you won't be getting the good price - and why should you, as you are just undercutting all the tradies out there. I don't work in the trade anymore but I still maintain my licences, which come in handy when buying stuff wholesale.
So many things wrong there. The severity of a shock depends on many things such as body impedance, frequency, the current path and the duration of the shock. The risk of ventricular fibrillation increases with frequency (so AC is more dangerous than DC), body current and duration. However body impedance is non-linear, so it decreases significantly with an increase in voltage, so from that angle it is actually the voltage which is more the dominant factor. AS 60479.1 has a heap of information on this.
Anyways, a statement such as 'it isn't the volts that kill, it's the current' is incorrect. But don't take my word for it -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDf2nhfxVzg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDf2nhfxVzg)
I apologise. My statement was incorrect and very broad.
Yes there are many factors. Including skin density and conductivity etc.
The figures that I put in were what is required to pass through you heart to cause issues.
Also as said you need voltage as well.
Plus great video. I think I will subscribe to his channel.