Post by: prodigyrf on June 11, 2018, 11:56:50 AM
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/the-road-rule-hardly-anyone-knows-that-has-cost-drivers-more-than-dollar600000/ar-AAyq2kJ (https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/the-road-rule-hardly-anyone-knows-that-has-cost-drivers-more-than-dollar600000/ar-AAyq2kJ)
He was pulled over by cop who freely admitted it was yellow when he entered the intersection but them's the rules youngun if in his opinion you could have stopped in time on the yellow :police:
Post by: D4D on June 11, 2018, 12:57:47 PM
Post by: #jonesy on June 12, 2018, 07:10:22 PM
Must stop if can do so.
That's been the rule in Vic since before I got my licence in the 80's
Post by: briann532 on June 12, 2018, 07:19:42 PM
Over here when our light turns green 6 other cars still go through and you have to wait for them.
You then get beeped by the bloke behind for not ramming them.
He then tailgates you sticking his finger up and abusing you, only stopping to send a text or update facebook.
He then swings across lanes to get finally get in front of you and then ends up behind you at the next set of lights for a repeat.
Ah good times.
???
Post by: #jonesy on June 12, 2018, 08:45:39 PM
Must be completely different rules in NSW.That only applies during peak hour. And some various suburbs.
Over here when our light turns green 6 other cars still go through and you have to wait for them.
You then get beeped by the bloke behind for not ramming them.
He then tailgates you sticking his finger up and abusing you, only stopping to send a text or update facebook.
He then swings across lanes to get finally get in front of you and then ends up behind you at the next set of lights for a repeat.
Ah good times.
???
Post by: edz on June 12, 2018, 09:12:35 PM
Fair dinkum if they want to pay off the national debt, just put a couple of red light camera's in ..
Post by: Poita on June 13, 2018, 09:25:58 AM
Same as driving lights in 'inclement weather'. Who is to draw the line on inclement weather?? The driver who feels that it is helping them see in what they deem inclement weather or the officer who has had a bad hair day and doesn't think anything less than 5ft visibility is inclement?
So the driver has the potential to be out of pockets hundreds of dollars purely based on someone else's opinion.
Post by: Charlie Brown on June 13, 2018, 10:21:40 AM
These vague 'laws of discretion' really get me annoyed. So I deem it's not safe to stop (safer to quickly accelerate through) as I know my car and how well it brakes, how close or what type of vehicle is behind me etc. Some completely random officer who does not know or see all of this, deems that I could have stopped purely on distance. I cop a fine as the officer has the badge and I don't.
Same as driving lights in 'inclement weather'. Who is to draw the line on inclement weather?? The driver who feels that it is helping them see in what they deem inclement weather or the officer who has had a bad hair day and doesn't think anything less than 5ft visibility is inclement?
So the driver has the potential to be out of pockets hundreds of dollars purely based on someone else's opinion.
Yeah, I agree f**k all laws, let’s all do whatever we want!
Post by: Bird on June 13, 2018, 10:22:52 AM
These vague 'laws of discretion' really get me annoyed. So I deem it's not safe to stop (safer to quickly accelerate through) as I know my car and how well it brakes, how close or what type of vehicle is behind me etc. Some completely random officer who does not know or see all of this, deems that I could have stopped purely on distance. I cop a fine as the officer has the badge and I don't.
(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/1e/bb/8b/1ebb8bad6bdf31166563118128aa58f2--horse-quotes-funny-stuff.jpg)
Post by: macca on June 13, 2018, 10:27:03 AM
These vague 'laws of discretion' really get me annoyed. So I deem it's not safe to stop (safer to quickly accelerate through) as I know my car and how well it brakes, how close or what type of vehicle is behind me etc. Some completely random officer who does not know or see all of this, deems that I could have stopped purely on distance. I cop a fine as the officer has the badge and I don't.You think they are bad, you should try and interpret the "heightened risk" rules on a boat
Same as driving lights in 'inclement weather'. Who is to draw the line on inclement weather?? The driver who feels that it is helping them see in what they deem inclement weather or the officer who has had a bad hair day and doesn't think anything less than 5ft visibility is inclement?
So the driver has the potential to be out of pockets hundreds of dollars purely based on someone else's opinion.
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Post by: macca on June 13, 2018, 11:10:55 AM
Yeah, I agree f**k all laws, let’s all do whatever we want!Maybe not all laws, maybe just start with the ones Poita was talking about that are open to interpretation
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Post by: #jonesy on June 13, 2018, 09:46:20 PM
Post by: Poita on June 14, 2018, 02:20:34 AM
Yeah, I agree f**k all laws, let’s all do whatever we want!
That's not what I said or even inferred. I just disagree with the concept of potentially charging drives hundreds of dollars on things that are purely based on opinion.
You drive 10kph over, then cough up, there is proof provided by the laser. You run a red light, cough up again, proof in the camera photo.
Post by: Poita on June 14, 2018, 02:29:17 AM
(http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/29/failure.png)
Helpful...
I drive main north road to work on a regular basis. There is a rear end pile up pretty much every week due to traffic lights every few hundred meters on an 80kph road. It is also notorious for tailgating.
There are times I will go through the yellow as I have a truck sitting on my rear end where otherwise I would have attempted to stop. Or given I'm in the 4wd I wouldn't have been able to stop as quick as I'm my Legnum.
Now who is the better judge of safety here? Me who knows the car and knows that stretch of roads reputation or a random onlooker?
In no way am I commending running a red, simply pushing through on a yellow if I seem it safer.
Post by: The punter on June 14, 2018, 08:56:39 AM
Post by: Bird on June 14, 2018, 09:22:16 AM
Quote from: Poita
Helpful...Fixed. pasted wrong one when i was lookin originally...
I eleventy thousand % agree with you
Post by: JusyApples on June 14, 2018, 09:54:44 AM
That's not what I said or even inferred. I just disagree with the concept of potentially charging drives hundreds of dollars on things that are purely based on opinion.The easiest way to avoid a fine is not break the road rules.
You drive 10kph over, then cough up, there is proof provided by the laser. You run a red light, cough up again, proof in the camera photo.
Post by: Bird on June 14, 2018, 09:59:45 AM
Quote from: JusyApples
The easiest way to avoid a fine is not break the road rules.
But that still misses the point..
Who knows his cars stopping ability and whats safe better? Him having done over 100,000klms in varying weather conditions - or a bloke thats never driven it?
Post by: macca on June 14, 2018, 10:18:59 AM
The easiest way to avoid a fine is not break the road rules.OK, but can you let me in on the secret that lets you know when the green changes to amber, cause when I'm doing 50, 60, 70, 80kph and I'm ten metres from the intersection I'm dammed if i can pick it. I am never in the intersection when the light changes from amber to red, just cant pick that green to amber change, unless i think that's long enough and stop on the green and wait
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Post by: JusyApples on June 14, 2018, 11:52:03 AM
But that still misses the point..I'm pretty sure no one will get a fine if there is an unreasonable amount of time/distance to safely stop
Who knows his cars stopping ability and whats safe better? Him having done over 100,000klms in varying weather conditions - or a bloke thats never driven it?
Post by: macca on June 14, 2018, 01:06:56 PM
I'm pretty sure no one will get a fine if there is an unreasonable amount of time/distance to safely stopBut thats the whole discussion isn't it. Interpretation is open to interpretation. That's what Poita was saying, what he sees as safe might not be what the officer sees as safe. You are always going to have disagreement when rules are left open for interpretation and badge will win everytime i guess
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Post by: Bird on June 14, 2018, 01:36:59 PM
Quote from: macca
But thats the whole discussion isn't it. Interpretation is open to interpretation. That's what Poita was saying, what he sees as safe might not be what the officer sees as safe. You are always going to have disagreement when rules are left open for interpretation and badge will win everytime i guess
Exactly.. Good luck proving otherwise
Post by: Pottsy on June 14, 2018, 02:19:55 PM
Exactly.. Good luck proving otherwiseAs policing changes and there is more reliance on in car camera footage etc I think it will be less open to interpretation.
Post by: Spada on June 14, 2018, 04:32:41 PM
Post by: Merts on June 14, 2018, 04:33:36 PM
These vague 'laws of discretion' really get me annoyed. So I deem it's not safe to stop (safer to quickly accelerate through) as I know my car and how well it brakes, how close or what type of vehicle is behind me etc.
The law is simple and clear. Amber means stop as long as it's safe to do so.
If you are too close to stop on the amber you don't need to accelerate to beat the red. Just keep going at the speed you were travelling at.
If you have enough time to accelerate to beat the red, you certainly have enough time to stop.
The problem is that when the lights turn amber, most of us are thinking about whether we can beat the red (because we don't WANT to stop), rather than if we can safely stop.
Post by: JusyApples on June 14, 2018, 04:38:04 PM
But thats the whole discussion isn't it. Interpretation is open to interpretation. That's what Poita was saying, what he sees as safe might not be what the officer sees as safe. You are always going to have disagreement when rules are left open for interpretation and badge will win everytime i guessThere is a difference between a fresh amber and late amber almost red. Lots of traffic laws are open to interpretation. NSW highway cars have footage albeit not great and if you honestly believe you haven't done anything wrong you have the right to contest the matter in court
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Post by: Poita on June 14, 2018, 05:31:24 PM
The law is simple and clear. Amber means stop as long as it's safe to do so.
If you are too close to stop on the amber you don't need to accelerate to beat the red. Just keep going at the speed you were travelling at.
If you have enough time to accelerate to beat the red, you certainly have enough time to stop.
The problem is that when the lights turn amber, most of us are thinking about whether we can beat the red (because we don't WANT to stop), rather than if we can safely stop.
But you have missed the point. Who is behind you? What sort of car are you driving? What speed are you going how far from the line? All these impact your decision as a mature adult (i.e. able to make a sensible decision based on a number of factors) as to whether to stop or not (not speaking of accelerating as then you would most likely be speeding).
So it's not simple. If I have a small new car behind me at a sensible distance behind, I will most likely stop. If I have a B Double behind me I am more likely to push through the orange as I know they take longer to pull up. Chuck in a heap or rain and it all changes again.
This is why I don't like random strangers who have never driven my car, or assessed who was behind me etc having the power to fine me a significant amount of money. If I want to fight that I then need to spend more money, loose time off of work etc.
The simple one is if you run a red. Running a yellow is far from simple, but attracts a disproportionate fine in my opinion. You are no longer allowed to use your brain like an adult, but are at the mercy of a person who has the power to make you financially uncomfortable based purely on a very shaky opinion.
Post by: Cruiser 105Tvan on June 14, 2018, 05:52:14 PM
If you enter an intersection you are obliged to clear it, and travel on.
Post by: paceman on June 14, 2018, 05:56:38 PM
The law is simple and clear. Amber means stop as long as it's safe to do so.
the law might be, but as others have pointed out, it's application most definitely is not.
everyone here knows the rule, that's not in dispute.
there are many variables, some known, some unknown, that all come into play in this decision.
roads that have just been lightly rained on are my worry point with amber lights... the light rain brings up all of the oil in the road, as well as making smooth bitumen very slick.
i know if i can stop or not. the cops do not. don't know how many times i have seen people try to stop in these conditions and end up in the middle of the intersection... some have been hit, some haven't...
the law might be simple, but the officer judging might be too...
Post by: Pottsy on June 14, 2018, 06:08:36 PM
so who gets a ticket here ????????? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZX1dQOLp6E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZX1dQOLp6E)Car in lane two had plenty of time to stop, lane three looks like in attention, fail to drive with due care or whatever they call it, 2nd car and coppers should receive tickets IMHO but I know there will be some who disagree and that's fine, because what I think doesn't make one iota of difference I'm not issuing the fine or a magistrate.
Post by: JusyApples on June 14, 2018, 06:24:13 PM
the law might be, but as others have pointed out, it's application most definitely is not.You don't think before issuing a fine an officer would take these things into consideration
everyone here knows the rule, that's not in dispute.
there are many variables, some known, some unknown, that all come into play in this decision.
roads that have just been lightly rained on are my worry point with amber lights... the light rain brings up all of the oil in the road, as well as making smooth bitumen very slick.
i know if i can stop or not. the cops do not. don't know how many times i have seen people try to stop in these conditions and end up in the middle of the intersection... some have been hit, some haven't...
the law might be simple, but the officer judging might be too...
Post by: nab on June 14, 2018, 06:26:57 PM
Post by: gronk on June 14, 2018, 06:32:37 PM
There is a difference between a fresh amber and late amber almost red. Lots of traffic laws are open to interpretation. NSW highway cars have footage albeit not great and if you honestly believe you haven't done anything wrong you have the right to contest the matter in court
Most haven't the time or money to contest something in court.
Even though it MIGHT be open to interpretation, once the cop has written the ticket, it is no longer open to discussion.
Post by: JusyApples on June 14, 2018, 06:33:21 PM
Car in lane two had plenty of time to stop, lane three looks like in attention, fail to drive with due care or whatever they call it, 2nd car and coppers should receive tickets IMHO but I know there will be some who disagree and that's fine, because what I think doesn't make one iota of difference I'm not issuing the fine or a magistrate.Only 1 at fault. The driver of parramatta 17
Post by: JusyApples on June 14, 2018, 06:36:20 PM
Most haven't the time or money to contest something in court.You can contest a ticket for free in court. Only costing work time but then again you could save yourself the cost of the fine if you win.
Even though it MIGHT be open to interpretation, once the cop has written the ticket, it is no longer open to discussion.
Post by: gronk on June 14, 2018, 06:36:42 PM
You don't think before issuing a fine an officer would take these things into consideration
He MIGHT, if he is a normal thinking human being. BUT, the hwy patrol blokes have been known to be "different"..... :police: :police:
Post by: gronk on June 14, 2018, 06:39:12 PM
You can contest a ticket for free in court. Only costing work time but then again you could save yourself the cost of the fine if you win.
IF you win. With no evidence, it's your word against his !! We all know how that goes.
Post by: macca on June 14, 2018, 07:05:56 PM
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Post by: Rumpig on June 14, 2018, 07:20:08 PM
You can contest a ticket for free in court. Only costing work time but then again you could save yourself the cost of the fine if you win.not like they reimburse self employed people for thier days off though, would cost me more then the fine to take the day off work to contest it.
Post by: JusyApples on June 14, 2018, 07:53:48 PM
not like they reimburse self employed people for thier days off though, would cost me more then the fine to take the day off work to contest it.Nup but for some people it's the principle that's priceless
Post by: Bird on June 15, 2018, 11:07:52 AM
Quote from: Rumpig
not like they reimburse self employed people for thier days off though, would cost me more then the fine to take the day off work to contest it.and your chances of winning are laughable - if your right or wrong. Gov Co needs the money.
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on June 15, 2018, 01:26:49 PM
Post by: Merts on June 15, 2018, 01:46:20 PM
But you have missed the point. Who is behind you? What sort of car are you driving? What speed are you going how far from the line? All these impact your decision as a mature adult (i.e. able to make a sensible decision based on a number of factors) as to whether to stop or not (not speaking of accelerating as then you would most likely be speeding).
So it's not simple. If I have a small new car behind me at a sensible distance behind, I will most likely stop. If I have a B Double behind me I am more likely to push through the orange as I know they take longer to pull up. Chuck in a heap or rain and it all changes again.
I didn't miss your point, I just disagree with how far you are taking it.
Of course you have to take into account the factors you've mentioned. That is precisely what the 'if safe to do so' part means.
Yes, there is some judgement required by both the driver, and the police officer, but I repeat my earlier assertion. If you feel you need to accelerate to get through before the red, you had PLENTY of time to stop. You just chose not to.
Post by: paceman on June 15, 2018, 01:54:57 PM
I didn't miss your point, I just disagree with how far you are taking it.
Of course you have to take into account the factors you've mentioned. That is precisely what the 'if safe to do so' part means.
Yes, there is some judgement required by both the driver, and the police officer, but I repeat my earlier assertion. If you feel you need to accelerate to get through before the red, you had PLENTY of time to stop. You just chose not to.
if my choices are:
accelerating a bit and getting through the intersection safely, or
putting on the brakes (not even slamming them on) and ending up in the middle of the intersection (due to wet road, type of vehicle, maybe a tailgater behind me) and becoming a sitting duck... ?
i know which one is safer for me, so that's the choice i'm making...
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on June 15, 2018, 01:57:03 PM
Post by: Merts on June 15, 2018, 01:59:08 PM
if my choices are:
accelerating a bit and getting through the intersection safely, or
putting on the brakes (not even slamming them on) and ending up in the middle of the intersection and becoming a sitting duck... ?
i know which one is safer...
If you need to accelerate to beat the red, you won't finish up in the middle of the intersection if you actually try to stop. The duration of the amber isn't just pulled out of someone's backside. The traffic signals are designed and programmed so that you can stop either stop comfortably and safely, or if you are too close, you will beat the red WITHOUT accelerating.
Post by: paceman on June 15, 2018, 01:59:59 PM
or a 2.25 tonne, 19 feet long Caddy thundering down on ya with drum brakes. ;D
yep... :)
like i said previously, no-one doubts the rule serves a purpose and is there for a reason...
the trouble is, with interpretive rules like this one, real life gets in the way and the rule does not cater for every situation that will arise...
Post by: paceman on June 15, 2018, 02:03:12 PM
If you need to accelerate to beat the red, you won't finish up in the middle of the intersection if you actually try to stop. The duration of the amber isn't just pulled out of someone's backside. The traffic signals are designed and programmed so that you can stop either stop comfortably and safely, or if you are too close, you will beat the red WITHOUT accelerating.
not in QLD, anyways...
been there, done that, got the skid marks to prove it...
traffic lights can not take into account every vehicle's weight, stopping ability, tyre condition, road condition, how much rain we've had... or any combination of those factors (along with others that i have forgotten)...
we can agree to disagree... if you think that every person that has received a ticket for going through an amber light was able to stop and the police officers have got it exactly right every time, you're doing better than me...
enjoy your weekend...
Post by: Bird on June 15, 2018, 02:10:43 PM
http://cameracommissioner.vic.gov.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/rscc_report_yellow_light_timing_issues.pdf (http://cameracommissioner.vic.gov.au/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/rscc_report_yellow_light_timing_issues.pdf)
As a result of my investigation, I find that the red light cameras at each of the intersections were operating accurately and in accordance with the Road Safety (General) Regulations 2009 throughout the relevant periods. However, as a result of the erroneous length of the yellow light phases, I recommend:
(a) Any person who received a traffic infringement notice for a red light
offence at the intersection of:
*LIST OF INTERSECTIONS*
should have any traffic infringement notice withdrawn, any infringement penalty refunded and any demerit points reversed. This recommendation only applies to vehicles travelling straight through the intersection and not to vehicles turning left or right at the intersection.
Post by: Merts on June 15, 2018, 02:41:22 PM
Yellow lights arent all set to 1 timing either.. there was a case a bloke won years ago due to this.
Yeah, fair enough Bird.
My comments are only valid if the signals have been designed and programmed correctly. (which they almost always are)