Post by: Onion on August 25, 2017, 05:25:01 PM
We're considering swapping the Captiva for a dual cab ute + canopy. I have a mate that tells me the single turbo diesels, when mated to an auto, because of the lag and amount of torque will chew the auto box up. He says it's not an issue on manuals or dual turbos because there's not the lag effect. He tells me that virtually all the auto's are made by the same company. They're basically sealed units as far as the car makers are concerned. They're warranted only as long as the tranny oil is warranted for. After a few years, there will be plenty of call for new automatic boxes in them.
He says he has had one (VW) and knows several others who have as well (Ranger, Triton, etc) and after a few years (4-5) they all basically sh!t themselves if they've done much towing.
As we want the new thing (whatever it ends up being) for better towing of the TrackAbout, this is a concern. And living in a BrisVegas, I'd prefer an auto (yes, I'm lazy, so shoot me!).
Does anyone on here have any experiences with this? Any auto-transmission mechanics on here? I'll even take anecdotes :-)
Anyone, anyone, Bueller, Bueller?
Post by: Foo on August 25, 2017, 05:43:10 PM
Foo
Post by: MrCruza on August 25, 2017, 05:48:26 PM
I have a mate that tells me the single turbo diesels, when mated to an auto, because of the lag and amount of torque will chew the auto box up.
Doesn't make sense to me. ??? A single turbo will have possibly more lag than a dual setup but considerably less torque. Its the torque that MAY be an issue depending on models. Having said that, most auto boxes these days are capable of handling far more torque than the factory throws at them.
For example, the cruiser is rated at 600NM but the box is more than capable of handling over 1000NM.. Lots of chipped examples running around pumping those numbers with no issues.
As Foo says you CAN change the oil in them, and that is the secret to long life.
Post by: Onion on August 25, 2017, 05:52:28 PM
Said don't bother to ask the dealer to do it as they'll tell you it doesn't need it...
Post by: macca on August 25, 2017, 06:00:43 PM
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Post by: KingBilly on August 25, 2017, 06:26:25 PM
Fir instance, the Isuzu Dmax/MUX box is an Aisin box which is a jointly owned transmission builder with its transmissions installed in a number of different makes of vehicles. See here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Aisin_transmissions The Colorado box is a GM transmission, very different.
If a transmission proves itself to be reliable other makes may use the same transmission and that is why your mate may think there is only one transmission maker however there are several.
All single turbos have a lag, dual turbos have a lag. Fact of life, nothing much you can do about it. Mazda has just patented, or applied for one, for a diesel engine with twin turbos PLUS an electronic supercharger to try to eliminate turbo lag. It looks like a really interesting development and should appear in future generations of the BT50. BTW, Maxda and Isuzu will be sharing their next ute platform and engine in their 2019/2020 model updates. Will be interesting to see where Mazda's new engine fits into this partnership.
As for the transmission being sealed, no it's not, despite what the manufacturers tell you. Yes, there is no dipstick to check auto oil levels. Yes, there is no service schedule in the service book. But yes they can be serviced. For my Dmax, Isuzu sell an auto filter. Why sell a replacement filter if the unit is sealed for life? I had my filter and fluid changed at 60K kms due to towing and many 4WD trips.
Heat is the killer of transmission fluid. If towing, add an aftermarket cooler and you won't have an issue.
KB
Post by: Onion on August 25, 2017, 06:44:37 PM
Post by: lloydus67 on August 25, 2017, 07:38:44 PM
Auto is 8 speed with no low range
Manual is a 6 speed with low range. 1:1 gear is 4th, both 5th and 6th are true overdrive gears.
Both are twin turbo 132kw 4 cylinder 2.0 litre engines
I can't comment on the V6 as I have not tried it
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Post by: speewa158 on August 25, 2017, 08:07:38 PM
l have a manual Oiler 5 speed & l can control it :cup: :cheers:
Post by: topcat on August 25, 2017, 09:13:45 PM
TC
Post by: KingBilly on August 25, 2017, 09:19:09 PM
KB
Post by: Patr80l on August 25, 2017, 09:32:28 PM
Post by: GeoffA on August 25, 2017, 09:54:57 PM
My 2011 Patrol 3.0 TD was manual and had a lower towing rating than the auto version. What does that tell you about automatic gearboxes?
Not much really.....
It might be correct for the 3 litre Patrol utes, but it's the other way around for 3 litre Patrol wagons (3200kg for manuals, 2500kg for autos)
Towing capacities are all over the place for GU Patrols (depending on body type/driveline spec), so I'm happy to be corrected.
:cheers:
Post by: Brodie Tas on August 25, 2017, 10:03:22 PM
Post by: Cruiser 105Tvan on August 25, 2017, 10:59:05 PM
I have a 2000 105 Auto Cruiser Wagon.
Put a Nomad valve body into the Gearbox, when I got it at 188k Klms.
Still drives better than a new one. It's fitted with a cooler too.
Tows the two tonne tandem I've got, without any real problems.
Will run all day, and it drinks fuel in hilly terrain too, just like every other petrol Cruiser.
Never had a problem with the Auto, once I put the new control valve assembly on it.
Post by: lloydus67 on August 26, 2017, 01:12:13 AM
So if you go the auto, buy new and should have a trouble free automatic or you can only blame yourself if you have issues from poor servicing intervals.
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Post by: rags on August 26, 2017, 08:49:27 AM
lf you know when to change gears up or down depending on just what the motor is telling you , go manual . lf not go auto , its up to you >:D
l have a manual Oiler 5 speed & l can control it :cup: :cheers:
I also know how to change gears and went to the dark side with my first prado (90series) and got an auto, the 2nd one (120s) I went back to a manual but realised that was a mistake and so now have an auto(150s) and must say it is so much better.
Post by: BTMNDR on August 26, 2017, 10:02:40 AM
Post by: kylarama on August 26, 2017, 10:41:00 AM
They all still have drain and refill plugs, removable pan, replaceable filter and a manufacturer speced refill procedure.
Like engine oil, ATF has a lifespan and needs replacing eventually.
'sealed for life' is just salesmen speak "I don't know why it doesn't have a dipstick"....
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Post by: BTMNDR on August 26, 2017, 12:52:23 PM
Wholesale Automatics in Bayswater, the provider of my torque converter lockup kit, recommend a service interval of 40,000 km, regardless of what the manufacturer says.
Post by: Bird on August 26, 2017, 01:12:56 PM
Quote from: BTMNDR
Wholesale Automatics in Bayswater, the provider of my torque converter lockup kit, recommend a service interval of 40,000 km, regardless of what the manufacturer says.
Rodney knows his Shit, but is also a business man.. ;) If nobody turned up to service their boxes, he'd close down.
then again oils cheap.. gearboxes aren't.
Post by: BTMNDR on August 26, 2017, 02:12:39 PM
Quote from: Bird
Rodney knows his Shit, but is also a business man.. ;) If nobody turned up to service their boxes, he'd close down.
then again oils cheap.. gearboxes aren't.
You're not suggesting an ulterior motive, are you? Perish the thought. :cheers:
Post by: Onion on August 26, 2017, 02:25:54 PM
Post by: scblack on August 26, 2017, 02:27:55 PM
With the VwVW Amarok 8spd auto is rated to 700nm.
Auto is 8 speed with no low range
Manual is a 6 speed with low range. 1:1 gear is 4th, both 5th and 6th are true overdrive gears.
Both are twin turbo 132kw 4 cylinder 2.0 litre engines
I can't comment on the V6 as I have not tried it
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Post by: KingBilly on August 26, 2017, 02:58:02 PM
Thanks all for the comments. Just one point - I didn't mean the boxes are actually sealed, just that manufacturers treat them as if they are. It's an outsourced component that they don't (really) want to know about. I realise that of course, you can change the tranny fluid :-)
Yep, they are "sealed" mainly because most makes offer capped priced servicing. An "average" vehicle will make it through the warranty period without needing any work on the auto so why service it and add to the cost?
KB
Post by: mynance on August 26, 2017, 03:24:33 PM
Myles
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Post by: rotare on August 26, 2017, 08:54:28 PM
We're considering swapping the Captiva for a dual cab ute + canopy. I have a mate that tells me the single turbo diesels, when mated to an auto, because of the lag and amount of torque will chew the auto box up. He says it's not an issue on manuals or dual turbos because there's not the lag effect. He tells me that virtually all the auto's are made by the same company. They're basically sealed units as far as the car makers are concerned. They're warranted only as long as the tranny oil is warranted for. After a few years, there will be plenty of call for new automatic boxes in them
I don't really understand the logic of the advice your mate has given you. The way I read it, it sounds almost contradictory ???
But what I am pretty sure of is that your mate hasn't even a basic understanding of turbos, turbo lag and automatic gearboxes....
Most, if not all of the common vehicle manufacturers make a turbo diesel, automatic 4wd. Some now don't even make manual versions due to the popularity of the combination. It's popular for numerous reasons including being superior for towing. If auto gearbox failure was common with turbo diesel engines then you'd read about it. Fact is it generally isn't a problem and for most people who tow regularly they don't experience any transmission issues over years and years of ownership.
Best advice is to pick a vehicle you like, then go ask an expert who regularly work on those types of vehicles about common problems with that model, as every vehicle has their quirks, strengths and weaknesses.
Post by: vern on August 26, 2017, 09:42:57 PM
You can still get the transmissions flushed and refilled. What diesels utes have a twin turbo? You can put coolers on the transmissions as well. ???Vw amarok. And nissan navarra. Both twin turbo
Foo
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Post by: Bird on August 26, 2017, 09:48:27 PM
octa-turbos is on the way
Post by: vern on August 26, 2017, 09:49:47 PM
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Post by: Bird on August 26, 2017, 09:59:08 PM
Can't wait for 8 turbo's! It is the futureengines will be 800cc by then
Post by: Cruiser 105Tvan on August 26, 2017, 10:11:13 PM
To try and eliminate the lag effect.
Wonder what the boost number would be?
Post by: Wortho on August 26, 2017, 10:19:17 PM
Post by: cyberess on August 27, 2017, 01:07:38 AM
I have a mate that tells me the single turbo diesels, when mated to an auto, because of the lag and amount of torque will chew the auto box up. He says it's not an issue on manuals or dual turbos because there's not the lag effect. He tells me that virtually all the auto's are made by the same company. They're basically sealed units as far as the car makers are concerned. They're warranted only as long as the tranny oil is warranted for. After a few years, there will be plenty of call for new automatic boxes in them.O.K. this is a mate said story :police:
He says he has had one (VW) and knows several others who have as well (Ranger, Triton, etc) and after a few years (4-5) they all basically sh!t themselves if they've done much towing.
As we want the new thing (whatever it ends up being) for better towing of the TrackAbout, this is a concern. And living in a BrisVegas, I'd prefer an auto (yes, I'm lazy, so shoot me!).
Looking at a Trackabout --
- 950Kg dry weight
- 80Kg ball weight
- Maybe you might have about 400kg on board
I reckon any of the new utes on the market would not have any problems with this, either being a Manual or a Auto, single or twin turbo.. About the only time things could be a problem if you left the tyres pump up hard, and bogged it in deep sand on a 40C day etc, and be a total idiot but that would or could destroy anything.
What I would say here with the camper that your towing, just choose a ute that you like, and should that be a auto it should be all good, if you are worried how a particular ute would tow your trailer, a lot of the test drive vehicles have towbars on them, so just try the vehicle that your interested in with your trailer.
:cheers:
Post by: landbarge on August 27, 2017, 09:40:24 AM
Was it someone on here said they (a car company?) were experimenting with fitting a super charger to a motor as well as twin turbo's.?VW has had turbo and i/c in a golf or similar a few years back.
To try and eliminate the lag effect.
Wonder what the boost number would be?
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Post by: KingBilly on August 27, 2017, 11:03:41 AM
Was it someone on here said they (a car company?) were experimenting with fitting a super charger to a motor as well as twin turbo's.?
To try and eliminate the lag effect.
Wonder what the boost number would be?
Actually on the previous page of this very thread ;D
Mazda has just patented, or applied for one, for a diesel engine with twin turbos PLUS an electronic supercharger to try to eliminate turbo lag. It looks like a really interesting development and should appear in future generations of the BT50.
KB
Post by: Cruiser 105Tvan on August 27, 2017, 09:12:38 PM
Still don't like very high nuimbers in boost.
It needs a lot of development in a motor to cope with high boost.
It costs to develop that sort of motor, so they're a very expensive option or they have to sell a big shed load.
Post by: plusnq on August 28, 2017, 06:02:57 AM
Thanks KB.
Still don't like very high nuimbers in boost.
It needs a lot of development in a motor to cope with high boost.
It costs to develop that sort of motor, so they're a very expensive option or the have to sell a big shed load.
New landrover engines use 53 psi boost. 177kw and 500 Nm. It will be interesting to see the longevity of these new type of engines.