Post by: melba on May 18, 2017, 07:33:06 PM
Is there any real big issue of towing it back to Melbourne carefully before i get the landcruiser and brake controller?
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Post by: Gandalf the White on May 18, 2017, 07:36:48 PM
Post by: Bigfish on May 18, 2017, 07:42:35 PM
You know about Murphy,s Law dont you?
cheers
Post by: melba on May 18, 2017, 07:46:44 PM
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Post by: Rumpig on May 18, 2017, 07:48:34 PM
Post by: two up on May 18, 2017, 07:55:35 PM
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Post by: kylarama on May 18, 2017, 07:59:57 PM
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/111073104798
Or the controller you want for the cruiser.
Temp install on the Triton. Double sided tape, zip ties, don't cut wiring to length, etc.
Remove when done and fit the whole shebang to the new car.
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Post by: bully on May 18, 2017, 08:03:15 PM
Either dummy the brake controller into the triton and rip it out when you get home. Or buy a override hitch to fit to the KK and you should be able to put a joiner in the brake line off the back of the hydraulic pack and a quick brake bleed and you are away. Wouldn't cost to much for a standard ball override hitch and brake fluid resivor with some brake hose and a joiner.
Post by: lukeycat on May 18, 2017, 08:04:24 PM
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Post by: Nomad on May 18, 2017, 08:20:53 PM
:cheers:
Post by: GeoffA on May 18, 2017, 08:27:38 PM
Buy this kit for $105.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/111073104798 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/111073104798)
Or the controller you want for the cruiser.
Temp install on the Triton. Double sided tape, zip ties, don't cut wiring to length, etc.
Remove when done and fit the whole shebang to the new car.
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Hey melba,
Whereabouts in Melbourne are you?
I have a spare PrimusIQ and loom that you're welcome to use....
:cheers:
Post by: gronk on May 18, 2017, 08:35:24 PM
Post by: briann532 on May 18, 2017, 08:38:31 PM
Post by: Humphreythebear on May 18, 2017, 09:01:01 PM
Runs Syd - Melb taking caravans up and back . Pm me if you want his details .
I tow a lot and wouldn't dream of towing KK without brakes - only takes one goose and ya cooked - also the Hume is inhabited by govt employees only to happy to take your money .
Ps one of my colleagues received a $660.00 fine for ' tyres not correct rating ' last week .
Up to you .
Post by: melba on May 18, 2017, 09:08:10 PM
Geoffa im based in rowville, is that controller a plug and play type controller?
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Post by: GeoffA on May 18, 2017, 09:13:57 PM
Geoffa im based in rowville......
I'm in Werribee, but work in the CBD.
......is that controller a plug and play type controller?
Is there such a beast?
The one I have would need to be wired in, if only temporarily....
:cheers:
Post by: kylarama on May 18, 2017, 09:27:10 PM
is that controller a plug and play type controller?
Hayman Reese do a 'plug n play' wiring harness for their rebadged Tekonsha controllers. At $100+ they cost more than the Primus IQ controller.
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Post by: GeoffA on May 18, 2017, 09:35:26 PM
Some or all of the Platinums had electric over hydraulic brake units that are only compatible with some controllers. Best to check with the seller 1st.
Good advice gronk....
Post by: melba on May 18, 2017, 09:42:22 PM
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Post by: GeoffA on May 18, 2017, 09:52:30 PM
Enjoy the new toys... :cup: :cup:
:cheers:
Post by: nab on May 19, 2017, 12:10:23 AM
Post by: bellony on May 19, 2017, 12:23:41 AM
See this link from the aussie Hydrastar distributors before buying a controller:
http://www.hydrastar.com.au/brake-controllers/hydrastar-compatibility/ (http://www.hydrastar.com.au/brake-controllers/hydrastar-compatibility/)
Post by: NewieCamper on May 19, 2017, 11:47:31 AM
Surely there is a market for a wireless controller. Something you could connect inline with the trailer plug, on the trailer, and use a wireless controller in the cab. would mean you could buy one controller for the trailer and switch it between tugs in a few seconds.
Post by: Bird on May 19, 2017, 12:03:07 PM
Post by: prodigyrf on May 19, 2017, 12:03:31 PM
http://automover.com.au/ (http://automover.com.au/)
http://www.opsl.com.au/interstate-transport-services/trailer/ (http://www.opsl.com.au/interstate-transport-services/trailer/)
Post by: Ben.Archer on May 19, 2017, 01:31:46 PM
Post by: Mace on May 19, 2017, 01:44:06 PM
Any trailer/CT/van over 2000 kg must have electric brakes,
Trailers/CT's between 750kg and 2000 kg have a combination of either manual override brakes only, and/or electric brakes.
The website tells me the KK patinum has a tare weight of 1220kg dry.
http://www.kimberleykampers.com/offroad-camper-trailer-dimensions-weights (http://www.kimberleykampers.com/offroad-camper-trailer-dimensions-weights)
If it has manual over-ride brakes fitted in addition to electric brakes it is quite legal to tow it relying on manual braking systems only as long as its overall weight doesnt exceed 2000kg.
https://www.caravansplus.com.au/catalog/help-brakes.php (https://www.caravansplus.com.au/catalog/help-brakes.php)
Post by: melba on May 19, 2017, 06:26:32 PM
I would of like to have more time investigating other types of controllers as mentioned above but decided on the redarc. I was surprised on the difference in price $225-$370. Anyway ive picked it up and ready for monday to be temporarily installed. And count the days down.
Once again thank you. I'm a long time reader but havnt given much back, so that will change very shortly. Time to enter the 'my camper' room 😎
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Post by: GGV8Cruza on May 19, 2017, 08:33:05 PM
I'll call kimberley tomorrow and find out and organise hopefully my mechanic on monday servicing my car if he can do a temp install as well. Thanks geoffa for your generosity. I mite just get the controller now for the cruiser and swap it later. As we leave next friday to pick it up.
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If you get stuck on the temp install let me know. A couple of hours one night would have it sorted
GG
Post by: Never enough time on May 19, 2017, 08:50:17 PM
I towed my older model hydraulic over ride 1.6T KK 2000km from Cairns to Tamworth unknowingly with brakes not working with no dramas, but being on inland roads I never had to "stomp" on the brakes. It was down the western inland road, only braking was at intersections within towns at < 30km/hr
I've had to stomp on the brakes with a < 1T gross trailer with no brakes on a dirt road, after I extracted my heart from my mouth I got brakes fitted ASAP
If there's no stomp on brake requirement you will be fine. If there is you will be in all types of trouble. I wouldn't do it without trailer brakes down such a busy road
Mark
Post by: prodigyrf on May 20, 2017, 12:24:31 AM
Surely there is a market for a wireless controller. Something you could connect inline with the trailer plug, on the trailer, and use a wireless controller in the cab. would mean you could buy one controller for the trailer and switch it between tugs in a few seconds.
There is but only for US wiring as we're too piddling a market to rate due to having it jump through all the ACMA hoops for the radio controller-
https://www.etrailer.com/Brake-Controller/Tekonsha/90250.html (https://www.etrailer.com/Brake-Controller/Tekonsha/90250.html)
The RV hire market over there would gobble them in big numbers as they're the best with onboard trailer sensing on the drawbar. I might have thought Redarc would have put the R&D expense of their Tow Pro Elite into a similar unit but perhaps the ACMA cost bar was far too high even for that.
Post by: NewieCamper on May 20, 2017, 08:08:59 AM
There is but only for US wiring as we're too piddling a market to rate due to having it jump through all the ACMA hoops for the radio controller-Given that modern controllers are almost set and forget and the box does all the electrickery a decent unit mounted to the trailer could do most of the work, with only occasional wireless input from the cab. Everything else is wireless so wouldn't be hard to get it reliable enough. Combine that with that many braked trailers have their own power supply especially those with breakaway brakes and you've got a solid system that is effectively trailer specific and portable between vehicles.
https://www.etrailer.com/Brake-Controller/Tekonsha/90250.html (https://www.etrailer.com/Brake-Controller/Tekonsha/90250.html)
The RV hire market over there would gobble them in big numbers as they're the best with onboard trailer sensing on the drawbar. I might have thought Redarc would have put the R&D expense of their Tow Pro Elite into a similar unit but perhaps the ACMA cost bar was far too high even for that.
Post by: prodigyrf on May 20, 2017, 09:37:11 AM
Given that modern controllers are almost set and forget and the box does all the electrickery a decent unit mounted to the trailer could do most of the work, with only occasional wireless input from the cab.
You're not wrong as I'm finding with the new Challenger already fitted with a Tow Pro Elite and while I've got the dash apart and trying to work out where the Hell I'm going to take off a feed for a Water Watch I've been scratching my head at the Redarc wiring setup. Instead of being fitted on the glove box side like this-
https://www.redarc.com.au/Content/Images/uploaded/Manuals/TPWKIT.003.FI11705%20-%20TPWKIT-003%20-%20Mitsubishi%20Triton%20-%20Electric%20Brakes%20-%20....pdf (https://www.redarc.com.au/Content/Images/uploaded/Manuals/TPWKIT.003.FI11705%20-%20TPWKIT-003%20-%20Mitsubishi%20Triton%20-%20Electric%20Brakes%20-%20....pdf)
it's apparently been manually wired up on the steering wheel side and that wouldn't be for the faint hearted and the penny has dropped that these wiring kits would no doubt represent excellent value for money-
https://www.redarc.com.au/tow-pro-wiring-kits (https://www.redarc.com.au/tow-pro-wiring-kits)
I've even got the original Mitsi Workshop Manual on CD but it's really obvious these cars are now an extremely complex mass of wiring and relays digitally controlled and mess with them at your peril. Apart from perhaps a few of these fourbies having some factory provisioning for trailer wiring like those Redarc kits attach to, it's pretty clear they don't expect any electrical add-ons nowadays. After all Redarc are making that their business navigating around it all and Gawdelpya if you get a rough old skotchloks and tape auto sparky :'(
Post by: lukeycat on May 21, 2017, 09:04:11 AM
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Post by: lloydus67 on May 21, 2017, 02:16:58 PM
This is my trailer brake controller it works from the brake light signal and you adjust the amount of brakes at the start of journey, set and forget.
However I have been told that it is a grey area as to these controllers are still allowed to be installed, old installations are still fine
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Post by: bruce93 on May 21, 2017, 02:56:03 PM
Post by: prodigyrf on May 21, 2017, 03:25:06 PM
This is my trailer brake controller it works from the brake light signal and you adjust the amount of brakes at the start of journey, set and forget.
However I have been told that it is a grey area as to these controllers are still allowed to be installed, old installations are still fine
The Regs for electric brakes require a manual brake boost button within reach of the driver nowadays which my RF Tekonsha provides. The only problem with its workaround conversion for Aus wiring means the brake lights don't come on when you use the boost button only, but you can always dab the brake pedal at the same time to overcome that. The silly part is if you have override brakes up to 2T you don't have a driver boost facility anyway, but such are the machinations of our wise overlords that know what's best for us all.
Post by: Pete79 on May 21, 2017, 06:57:05 PM
The Regs for electric brakes require a manual brake boost button within reach of the driver nowadays which my RF Tekonsha provides. The only problem with its workaround conversion for Aus wiring means the brake lights don't come on when you use the boost button only, but you can always dab the brake pedal at the same time to overcome that. The silly part is if you have override brakes up to 2T you don't have a driver boost facility anyway, but such are the machinations of our wise overlords that know what's best for us all.My understanding is that you can still fit the drawbar controllers to new trailers in the NT.
The rules for the rest of us are as you have said though.
In saying that, I was going to suggest one of those drawbar mounted type controllers, just to get you safely home for the one trip back from the factory.
Obviously those ones are nowhere near as good (or as legal in all states) as the one you're going to install in the new tug when it arrives. But something to control the brakes that had been legal (and kind of still is) has got to be heaps better then nothing at all.
Post by: prodigyrf on May 21, 2017, 08:18:37 PM
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Override-Zinc-Coupling-Mechanical-2000kg-Camper-Trailer-part-Caravan-Hitch-Boat-/231021775133 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Override-Zinc-Coupling-Mechanical-2000kg-Camper-Trailer-part-Caravan-Hitch-Boat-/231021775133)
Post by: Fizzie on May 22, 2017, 07:40:42 AM
This is my trailer brake controller it works from the brake light signal and you adjust the amount of brakes at the start of journey, set and forget.
However I have been told that it is a grey area as to these controllers are still allowed to be installed, old installations are still fine
That is similar to what I've just had installed. Queried it & was told perfectly legal in Qld, but, as you say, grey in other States as can't be adjusted from driver's seat. Easy enough to st it to 2 when you start off, jump pout & change to 4 when you reach dirt, or 6 if it starts raining!
Post by: kylarama on May 22, 2017, 07:56:13 AM
That is similar to what I've just had installed. Queried it & was told perfectly legal in Qld, but, as you say, grey in other States as can't be adjusted from driver's seat.
Interesting. There was a thread a while back about this and a few qlders were adamant it was illegal. Guess it pays to ring.
The comment in the Vicroads regs about controlled from the drivers seat is only mentioned for trailers over 2 ton, nothing about under 2 ton. I assume QLD is the same?
I've got to book in a 1.4 ton trailer for rego, so I'm going to ask Vicroads out of curiosity.
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Post by: Fizzie on May 22, 2017, 08:22:58 AM
To my mind, the rules aren't really explicit:
http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/Safety/Vehicle%20standards%20and%20modifications/Loads%20and%20towing/Safe%20towing/Safe_towing_guide.pdf (http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/Safety/Vehicle%20standards%20and%20modifications/Loads%20and%20towing/Safe%20towing/Safe_towing_guide.pdf)
"All other trailers that do not exceed 4500 kg ATM
These trailers must be fitted with an efficient brake system that complies with ADR 38/-. Except for over-run brakes, all brakes must be operable from the driver's seat of the towing vehicle.
For trailers up to 2000 kg GTM, an efficient braking system is considered to have brakes operating on the wheels of at least one axle. Over-run brakes may only be used on trailers that do not exceed 2 tonnes GTM.
Every trailer over 2000 kg GTM must have brakes operating on all wheels. The brake system must cause immediate application of the trailer brakes in the event of the trailer becoming detached from the towing vehicle. Under these circumstances, the brakes must remain applied for at least 15 minutes."
So, in Qld, it doesn't say that the brakes have to be able to be "adjusted" from the driver's seat, only "operated", which, s he said, is done by use of the brake pedal.
So, does that mean I can cross the Border legally or not ???
Post by: lloydus67 on May 22, 2017, 08:49:44 AM
If you register in a new state after relocating, then you need to meet the new requirements
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Post by: kylarama on May 22, 2017, 09:25:26 AM
Spoke to Anna in tech support.
If the trailer is under 2 ton, built after 1989 and is built by the manufacturer with a trailer mounted brake controller fitted. Perfectly legal.
If it is modified afterwards to have a trailer mounted brake controller. Not legal.
The same could be said for changing the braking system too on anything post 1989 then. Converting mechanical override drums to hydraulic override disc, etc.
Personally I'd ever only run a vehicle mounted controller, but I've always been curious on this subject as I've seen quite a few of these setups.
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Post by: prodigyrf on May 22, 2017, 10:33:19 AM
My first near new Dove was 1985 and they'd fitted override brakes so the family could tow it as well as their boat but then they bought a shack on the river and hardly used it. Fast a forward to my 2002 Dove I bought interstate a few years ago and I realised I'll need an electric brake controller and the same problem if the son wants to use it. That's when I spotted the Tekonsha RF and bought one online and took it with me interstate and fitted it for the drive home and it sailed through Rego inspection here as you have to with interstate regd vehicles.
Now they're largely interested in the VIN/rego details and anything obviously wrong like bald tyres or lights not working naturally so the RF Tekonsha on the drawbar didn't get a second glance and they certainly didn't want to drive it. I already knew you had to have it hitched up to a car and all running, unlike the poor bloke who came down from the country with a trailer on the back of a light truck and sorry mate no can do like that :( So there you go my Tek RF Jayco is 'officially Approved' :)
Which brings me to the near new Challenger I bought and that Tow Pro Elite onboard and while trying to hook up a Water Watch I realise now the Redarc has been professionally fitted with their harness, etc. So you're up for the Redarc unit plus $290 for those harness kits to suit popular fourbies and you're thinking that's a bit rich. Well forget pissing around yourself with these modern electrics as a genuine Mitsi tow harness is $320 anyway as I discover on Newtriton.net and you still have to fit it all and have a look at those Redarc instruction PDFs as you still have a fair bit of mucking around to do.
Seriously you need to get a towbar and Redarc package all done professionally when you're haggling over the new car price as it's all part of the cost of towing nowadays. I realise now I've got a valuable bit of gear on board the Challenger so I'll be adapting the Jayco for either/or with the Tek or Redarc so the Challenger can hook up any trailer with or without electric brakes.
Post by: gronk on May 22, 2017, 06:25:49 PM
As I recall my first Jayco had been modified to override using the hand brake cables so here's a cheap solution-
If the KK has electric over hyd brakes, there will be no hand brake cables !!
Post by: prodigyrf on May 22, 2017, 11:15:39 PM
If the KK has electric over hyd brakes, there will be no hand brake cables !!
That's true so what's the cost of getting a Tow Pro Elite installed professionally nowadays? Anyone?
I'd have to say looking at what's involved with a 2015 Challenger there'd be little point in trying to save a few bucks with anything less in the Redarc range and the usual car mount Tekonshas would be knee knockers and in the way. These modern dashes and electrics are not friendly for add-ons so it might be nice if manufacturers could bung in a decent mobile phone holder for starters.
Post by: gronk on May 23, 2017, 06:46:04 AM
Post by: prodigyrf on May 23, 2017, 10:23:03 AM
https://www.redarc.com.au/Content/Images/uploaded/Manuals/TPWKIT.003.FI11705%20-%20TPWKIT-003%20-%20Mitsubishi%20Triton%20-%20Electric%20Brakes%20-%20....pdf (https://www.redarc.com.au/Content/Images/uploaded/Manuals/TPWKIT.003.FI11705%20-%20TPWKIT-003%20-%20Mitsubishi%20Triton%20-%20Electric%20Brakes%20-%20....pdf)
Redarc only have that latest Triton one listed on their website but I realise now my Challenger has a similar plug and play Redarc kit like that installed and connected up to that passenger side trim and running down the sill panel to the back, etc and across to the unit on the drivers side. Or did you inherit your Challenger with a genuine Mitsi wiring harness already installed?
I did come across one hero on Newtriton.net who'd bought the genuine Mitsi harness for $320 but when he unboxed it a few of the connectors were smashed and they couldn't get him another one in time so he posts how he picked up $130 worth of gear from Jaycar and spends all weekend working it out and getting it all hitched up for any interested parties. That's when the penny really dropped these electrics are no longer DIY friendly and everything runs off relays nowadays. As far as I can tell from those who've been before my best bet for an ignition on relay for the Water Watch is the blue with black stripe wire to the wipers without strange things happening with the rest of the car ;D
Post by: gronk on May 23, 2017, 04:48:19 PM
The towbar wiring was done by Hayman Reece and did incorporate the black box in the rear 1/4 panel, but the brakes had nothing to do with that wiring.
My current 200 series was already wired when I bought it ( Tekonsha also ), but appears to be exactly the same as the Challenger was.
Post by: prodigyrf on May 23, 2017, 06:36:39 PM
http://www.newtriton.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=12240&p=512702&hilit=trailer+wiring#p512702 (http://www.newtriton.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=12240&p=512702&hilit=trailer+wiring#p512702)
All I can say to any of you thinking you'll save some dough with DIY nowadays is you better be prepared to do your homework or hand the plastic to the man with the plan
Post by: melba on May 23, 2017, 07:13:58 PM
Finally purchased a new sahara tug on the weekend arriving October so i cant wait to have a couple of months towing it with the triton. The triton has been a great car, sad to see it go but happy with the cruiser decision.
I expected a few yes and no question from my original question, but this has turned into for me anyway, a very imformative thread exploring every aspect of break controllers and legalities. Still reading with interest, great work everybody.
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Post by: prodigyrf on May 23, 2017, 08:23:41 PM
Post by: melba on June 01, 2017, 07:26:33 PM
Cheers melba and enjoy the new tug. What was the charge for the Tow Pro fitting or did they just give you an all up price with the towbar?Hi prodigyrf, i'll find the invoice and try and seperate the service from the install. Ive been flat out at work so hopefully on the weekend i'll dig it out.
I picked the kk up last weekend, awsome handover from previous owners. The pro elite went flawlessly even to the fact when i got home i disconnected the loom to see what it was like without it. Im glad i had it done even at low speed i could feel the triton sluggishly pull up. However when we departed and tried to collaborate the unit it was locking up, with the odd puff of smoke. The breaking force was horrendous. I was already thinking we cant drive home. Luckily the wife was on hand holding the dial and realised the number dial thingy wasnt set aligned with the dial button. It was set around i or 10. Funny how i was thinking more a complex issue where as she took the simple approach. Once we sorted that, the dial turned blue (auto) and off we went. Absolutely rapt in how it works, being the first time using a brake controller.
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