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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bird on May 05, 2017, 02:55:13 PM
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Always knew ACCC was Shit.
'Australians will continue to be held hostage to Telstra'
Telstra shares have soared after its important win in the battle for regional customers after the competition watchdog ruled the telecommunications giant should not have to share its network infrastructure with its competitors.
The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission on Friday morning released its draft decision proposing to not "declare" wholesale domestic mobile roaming service.
A decision to "declare" mobile networks would have forced Telstra, Optus and Vodafone to let other carriers access their entire networks at regulated prices and the ACCC's ruling has sparked a furious response.
Telstra has argued that it is dedicated to building high-quality mobile networks around the country, but only if regulatory settings remain exactly as they are. If those settings changed it has indicated it could withdraw billions of dollars of investment from regional areas.
ACCC chairman Rod Sims said there was insufficient evidence that declaration would "improve the current state of competition overall".
"We are extremely conscious of the fact that in regional, rural and remote areas, mobile coverage and choice of service provider are vital issues. However, the effect declaration would have on competition in regional, rural and remote areas is uncertain. While declaration may deliver choice for more consumers, declaration has the potential to make some consumers worse off," he said.
http://www.smh.com.au/business/telstra-has-big-win-in-battle-for-bush-mobiles-20170504-gvywu2.html (http://www.smh.com.au/business/telstra-has-big-win-in-battle-for-bush-mobiles-20170504-gvywu2.html)
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Im no Telstra fan, but if they have paid to build the infrastructure why would they let their competitors use them to undermine their business?
Would you pay to build a business then let your competitor come along and use your infrastructure.
Same thing happened to Twiggy Forrestor who wanted access to Rio and BHP railways. They told him to stuff off. Think that went to court too and it got chucked out.
Cheers Glen
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Im no Telstra fan, but if they have paid to build the infrastructure why would they let their competitors use them to undermine their business?
Would you pay to build a business then let your competitor come along and use your infrastructure.
Same thing happened to Twiggy Forrestor who wanted access to Rio and BHP railways. They told him to stuff off. Think that went to court too and it got chucked out.
Cheers Glen
x2
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Same thing happened to Twiggy Forrestor who wanted access to Rio and BHP railways. They told him to stuff off. Think that went to court too and it got chucked out.
http://www.smh.com.au/business/bhp-rio-lose-rail-fight-with-fortescue-20081027-59lw.html (http://www.smh.com.au/business/bhp-rio-lose-rail-fight-with-fortescue-20081027-59lw.html)
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"ACCC chairman Rod Sims said there was insufficient evidence that declaration would "improve the current state of competition overall" while using his new Telstra Iphone 8 courtesy of Telstra. ;D
Mark
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I thought it also had to do with what's best for the Consumer (I'm sure one of the C's in ACCC is that)... So in reality Telstra keep their monopoly as their Shit is the only real option once you leave the city. Not as Mark says free internet, TV and phone for life for certain decision makers.
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Just shop smarter...
Boost Mobile (http://boost.com.au/plans/) uses the full Telstra network, and is only $30 every 4 weeks (a total of $390 per annum) for unlimited Australian Calls and Texts, and 7GB of data (3GB to use Monday to Fridays, and an extra 1GB each weekend)
You can port your number to them, so you don't lose your number and all is then good...
I buy my phone outright ($150 for the last one I think it was) so over the period of a standard contract (2 years) I'm ahead.
I used to be on contract, and I've now decided that I'd be reluctant to go that way again.
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Dont think the others use the whole telstra network, just a large part of it
The difference here is that I believe a fair bit of tax payer money went into building Telstra regional mobile networks - I could be wrong.
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No you're not wrong- http://www.afr.com/technology/optus-vodafone-rally-against-telstra-subsidy-20140515-iucd4 (http://www.afr.com/technology/optus-vodafone-rally-against-telstra-subsidy-20140515-iucd4)
However I'd be cautious about that Optus statement-
"Optus estimated Telstra had received $462 million in direct government funding since 1997."
because they may likely be quoting total subsidies which could include fixed line copper rollout to marginal areas as well as compensation for their mandated Consumer Service Guarantee. In any case Optus and Voda could have easily stuck their hand up for these tenders if they thought it was in their interests to do so at the time. In that respect they always have the opportunity to share costs with a rural rollout to command a premium price like Telstra does.
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Dont think the others use the whole telstra network, just a large part of it
Boost is the exception, they get full coverage but not fastest 4gx data which is mainly just in the built highly built up area's, you still get 4g in those areas which is more than fast enough for what most use their phones for.
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I worked as a remote area tech for 20 years in remote areas. Never saw an Optus or Vodaphone tech anywhere, apart from in some large city centres! Both these companies used Telstra techs to do their work. You can Shitcan Telstra as much as you want ( I have at times1) but for remote and regional areas they really are way ahead of anyone else for serviceing the bush....yes, they have their faults but name 1 large business that doesn,t. Stuffed if I,d want someone telling me to carry an extra spare tyre on my car for them to use!
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........Stuffed if I,d want someone telling me to carry an extra spare tyre on my car for them to use!
:cup: :cup:
Funny, but I agree....and that's exactly the sort of attitude some travellers seem to have......
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Interesting topic, where do you want your profits to go, local or overseas???
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Interesting topic, where do you want your profits to go, local or overseas???
Good point!
Seeing Telstra is the local company.
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I worked as a remote area tech for 20 years in remote areas. Never saw an Optus or Vodaphone tech anywhere, apart from in some large city centres! Both these companies used Telstra techs to do their work. You can Shitcan Telstra as much as you want ( I have at times1) but for remote and regional areas they really are way ahead of anyone else for serviceing the bush....yes, they have their faults but name 1 large business that doesn,t. Stuffed if I,d want someone telling me to carry an extra spare tyre on my car for them to use!
Whilst I generally agree with you, as others have mentioned, the fact that some of it is government funded is what muddies the water a little bit.
Your example above would be more accurate if it was someone expecting you to carry their spare, when the group had subsidised you to be able to go on the trip.
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Despite Telstra's faults (that said, none of the telco's are perfect, are they?), I kind of agree with this decision.
If you've got less money going Telstra's way because you open up the network to the competition, what incentive will Telstra have to continue to provide tech service (as someone has mentioned) to the rural/remote areas, and continue to expand their network in these areas?
Yes, it does get a little more complicated when you bring taxpayer funds into it, but a business will always think like a business.
For now, if you want to enjoy the benefits of Telstra's services, you have to go with them (or one of the telcos who are already "resellers" on their network). Unfortunately I think it does kind of make sense - support the service that serves you best, and hopefully they continue to meet your needs.
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Im no Telstra fan, but if they have paid to build the infrastructure why would they let their competitors use them to undermine their business?
Would you pay to build a business then let your competitor come along and use your infrastructure.
Same thing happened to Twiggy Forrestor who wanted access to Rio and BHP railways. They told him to stuff off. Think that went to court too and it got chucked out.
Cheers Glen
I agree but on the other hand do we need 10 x the mobile infrastructure and not get any coverage benefit ?
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Whilst I generally agree with you, as others have mentioned, the fact that some of it is government funded is what muddies the water a little bit.
That's true to some extent but the Govt subsidy for Black Spots was only partial for particular towers to get the capital amortisation over the line and rural users win in two ways with that. Firstly the immediate use of the tower but then they don't pay anywhere near the true cost of running that particular tower. That's because city slickers wanting better coverage travelling outside the cities are prepared to pay a premium for that too and there are many of them. Now there's no way Gummint could achieve that for their paltry investment and you only want one tower there not 2 or 3 so it's win/win all round.
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That's true to some extent but the Govt subsidy for Black Spots was only partial for particular towers to get the capital amortisation over the line and rural users win in two ways with that. Firstly the immediate use of the tower but then they don't pay anywhere near the true cost of running that particular tower. That's because city slickers wanting better coverage travelling outside the cities are prepared to pay a premium for that too and there are many of them. Now there's no way Gummint could achieve that for their paltry investment and you only want one tower there not 2 or 3 so it's win/win all round.
And that's why I said a little bit, and why the ACCC has decided the way it has, but if it's the 500mil reported then I wouldn't call it paltry or even close to it.
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And that's why I said a little bit, and why the ACCC has decided the way it has, but if it's the 500mil reported then I wouldn't call it paltry or even close to it.
It's fairly paltry when you consider Conroy's initial NBN thought bubble was going to be $1500 per premise for full fibre which the 14 finalist tenderers politely guffawed at you might recall and now taxpayers are into Plan B to try and squeeze the expectations genie back into some sense of an economic bottle-
https://www.itnews.com.au/news/nbn-co-puts-initial-fttc-cost-at-2800-per-premises-453855 (https://www.itnews.com.au/news/nbn-co-puts-initial-fttc-cost-at-2800-per-premises-453855)
True, Netflix did come along to tip a bucket on all the best laid plans of mice and men :-[
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Which is why the Govt should have stayed out of building the NBN and let the market build it.
Here's an idea, let's build another Telecom Australia, oh didn't we just sell that...
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I thought it also had to do with what's best for the Consumer (I'm sure one of the C's in ACCC is that)... So in reality Telstra keep their monopoly as their Shit is the only real option once you leave the city.
No, it means the opposite. If the decision had gone the other way, you would have all three mobile telcos reselling the one 'monopoly' Telstra network that you think is 'sh*t'. No one would build competing services to try and give better speed and coverage.
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No, it means the opposite. If the decision had gone the other way, you would have all three mobile telcos reselling the one 'monopoly' Telstra network that you think is 'sh*t'. No one would build competing services to try and give better speed and coverage.
Exactly, this is why the other Telcos want access - more money and bigger dividends for their shareholders at Telstra's expense. We would then be in the situation where no Telco would be willing to expend funds to expand their networks when they would have to give the opposition access at a price set by external organisations (ACCC).
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Was chatting a to a telstra mate who is one of their execs the day before the announcement. His spin was where will be be telstra's motivation come from to expand and remain the market leader if this goes through? As much as telstra annoys the bejusus out of me he does have a very vaild point.
Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk
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Just shop smarter...
Boost Mobile (http://boost.com.au/plans/) uses the full Telstra network, and is only $30 every 4 weeks (a total of $390 per annum) for unlimited Australian Calls and Texts, and 7GB of data (3GB to use Monday to Fridays, and an extra 1GB each weekend)
I'm also with Boost.....but it's $40/mth for me. How do you get it for $30 ??
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I'm also with Boost.....but it's $40/mth for me. How do you get it for $30 ??
You can change the package - I'm going to do it at the end of the month as that's when mine is due up - but I can't remember exactly how.
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I cannot see boost using the full Telstra coverage.
Compare the coverage of both companies.
That's why boost is cheaper.....
. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170507/9dad1d17ba19f4b9e4bc6c09b918c56d.png)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170507/710fa88cf8990f4a244b3f3c9440c6c9.png)
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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I cannot see boost using the full Telstra coverage.
Compare the coverage of both companies.
That's why boost is cheaper.....
Those maps aren't comparing like for like, The Telstra one is showing both the 3g and 4g network and 3g using an additional external antenna whereas the boost map is only showing the 4g.
From here (http://www.canstarblue.com.au/phone-internet/brands/boost-mobile-phone-plans/)
Boost is also one of the few to use the full Telstra network, meaning you get the same coverage as if you were with Telstra.
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You can change the package - I'm going to do it at the end of the month as that's when mine is due up - but I can't remember exactly how.
Just pick the particular recharge you want via your phone although there might be a problem if you registered for auto recharge and perhaps you have to change that or it rolls over automatically. You may have to call Boost to delete auto recharge and go back to manual and you can store your credit card details doing that so you don't have to reenter them each month when you manually recharge.
Two benefits with manual recharge. Say you went OS for a holiday you can leave it in abeyance and recharge again when you get back. Also when it runs out at midnight when you're getting your beauty sleep and you recharge next morning you've cribbed a day for the next recharge, bearing in mind you can still receive calls but can't send and if you try it prompts you to recharge. What's not to like with manual recharge?
http://boost.com.au/plans/ (http://boost.com.au/plans/)
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Two benefits with manual recharge. Say you went OS for a holiday you can leave it in abeyance and recharge again when you get back. Also when it runs out at midnight when you're getting your beauty sleep and you recharge next morning you've cribbed a day for the next recharge, bearing in mind you can still receive calls but can't send and if you try it prompts you to recharge. What's not to like with manual recharge?
Check it out, pretty sure you will find manual recharge is for 28 days where as auto is for a calendar month, so you generally get a few extra days out of auto recharge.
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Which is why the Govt should have stayed out of building the NBN and let the market build it.
Here's an idea, let's build another Telecom Australia, oh didn't we just sell that...
So the metropolitan areas can have an even more awesome internet service and the rural and regional areas can get completely shafted again by the market?
Govco is extremely reluctantly providing the absolute minimal service to those non profitable (but most would argue far more vital) areas out side of the big cities.
The market have made it very clear they have no interest in servicing the bush, no money for share holders out there.....
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Govco is extremely reluctantly providing the absolute minimal service to those non profitable (but most would argue far more vital) areas out side of the big cities.
I don't think the answer is to build a govt network, I think the answer is to put more money in to the black spot program ... govt funding to partly pay for towers to be built in areas where 'the market' doesn't make commercial sense.
And the beauty of it is that it's all subsidised from the tax dollars earned by city folks! Oh, that's me ... >:(
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I don't think the answer is to build a govt network, I think the answer is to put more money in to the black spot program ... govt funding to partly pay for towers to be built in areas where 'the market' doesn't make commercial sense.
And the beauty of it is that it's all subsidised from the tax dollars earned by city folks! Oh, that's me ... >:(
We (Australia) does need government involvement in the supply of certain infrastructure:
-Roads
-Rail
-Telecoms
because the distances are just too big for the private sector to be interested in doing it, unless they are able to make millions out of it (mining companies for example) very quickly. Most of it is in for the long haul, not a get rich quick scheme.
Particularly with the telecoms, as more and more things are moving online (everything from banking to livestock movements) the need for a reliable robust system is paramount.
Don't worry, I'm sure the country folk will be quite happy so stop producing food for you... :P
I want to know how much State governments are using the mining royalties to build you a new stadium at the cost of many millions (whereas in the UK, the clubs and sponsors build them instead of the State governments) - in effect a one off transfer of wealth out of the regional areas and into the cities.
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I thought it also had to do with what's best for the Consumer (I'm sure one of the C's in ACCC is that)... So in reality Telstra keep their monopoly as their Shit is the only real option once you leave the city. Not as Mark says free internet, TV and phone for life for certain decision makers.
There is no monopoly, anyone who wants to can build towers where they want, Telstra is the only one who has, that is not a monopoly.
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There is no monopoly, anyone who wants to can build towers where they want, Telstra is the only one who has, that is not a monopoly.
Yep, thats the way I've heard it from someone who works for Voda.
People want the coverage but don't want to pay for it. Surprise surprise.
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There is no monopoly, anyone who wants to can build towers where they want, Telstra is the only one who has, that is not a monopoly.
& that is the thing, isn't it.
If Optus & Vodafone want to examine the map to detect all the black spots around Oz, go out & build towers to cover those spots, then sell space to Telstra, there's absolutely nothing stopping them >:D
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There is no monopoly, anyone who wants to can build towers where they want, Telstra is the only one who has, that is not a monopoly.
The copper landline network was largely laid down with taxpayer support, back in the days. So access for other companies that that network I think is acceptable. That is not the specific issue here.
But mobile networks are recent developments, in no way taxpayer funded. And as you say anyone can build them if they wish. So for mobile networks, not allowing access to them is standard business practice. If someone wants a network Australia wide - please go ahead and make your own investment of $Billions to create it, Telstra should not subsidise other carriers.
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There is no monopoly, anyone who wants to can build towers where they want, Telstra is the only one who has, that is not a monopoly.
No they can't!!!
There was a proposal in our area about 7 years ago to install 2 new towers and fix the black spots.
Apparently all the anti-vaccination loonies that infest our region recon the radio waves would make them grow a 3rd head or something and they shouted down the towers.....
So I now get to hang my phone in the window sill to get 1 bar of 3G reception and have to use a Bluetooth headset so I can walk and talk with my mobile phone that can't be moved from that sweet spot.
*Edit,
Just realized the last 4 posts have quoted you Dilligara, those words of yours must have really touched a nerve around here. ;)
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Apparently all the anti-vaccination loonies that infest our region recon the radio waves would make them grow a 3rd head or something and they shouted down the towers....
I'm not into tinfoil hats and alien space rays nor antivaxing but with the first grandchild on the way the question was asked about our whooping cough vaccinations, etc. Now whilst my folk's generation were no doubt rapt in the ability to have my generation protected against dreaded polio, etc there are worrying signs that WC vaccination may be turning out like resistance to antibiotics as I discovered-
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-problem-of-waning-pertussis-immunity/
You can't innoculate newborns but they do with expectant mothers in the hope that their immunity will be passed on to bub and as much as you can inoculate family members with the triple shot it's now apparent that some of us carry the pertussis virus with no symptoms and with declining immunity generally, WC outbreaks have come back to haunt us again.
We're talking about long term epidemiological risk here and none of us can be smug about the long term intergenerational effects of vaccination, anymore than we can with the use of pharmacological treatments. With ready access to computing power since the 1980s we've been collecting and crunching a lot more data and interpreting it which can lead to discovering recent things like anti-inflammatories being associated with significant increased heart attack risk. Life's a risk/return tradeoff with everything we do and while I never believed in a new heart in a bottle of pills, you might still be gobbling your statins like the missus, while I smoked most of my life but I've been vaping my nicotine fix into my third year now on a real health kick. Nothing like it with the odd coffee now Treasurer, but how's the booze and the waistline with you risky thrillseekers? :cheers:
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Speak of the devil- https://www.businessinsider.com.au/what-a-universal-flu-vaccine-could-look-like-2017-5 (https://www.businessinsider.com.au/what-a-universal-flu-vaccine-could-look-like-2017-5)
“Even though they have seen the virus for many years, there’s so many changes so that almost nobody is protected,” Eliud Oloo, Sanofi’s manager of structure, genomics, and informatics told Business Insider.
That's not what we're told by the cotton wool merchants incessantly is it? Apparently everyone should have compulsory flu shots or be suitably punished forthwith as public enemy number one. Bit of a common theme going down here. There's the tinfoil hats and worryworts wanting to put the kybosh on pete79's towers on flimsy evidence and the ACCC being asked to allow roaming on Telstra towers because it's not fair that Optus and Voda customers don't have the same coverage. I'm bloody bemused that a lot of city slickers I talk to are gobsmacked that you don't get constant mobile coverage travelling across the Nullarbor. Err no it aint exactly like Burke and Wills out there on cruise control but you haven't heard of Flynn of the Outback and the pedal wireless? You know like some country folk aren't exactly glued to Facebook and Twitter 24/7 there panicky people. Sweet Jesus the effing nanny state and the umbilical cord and why a bloke likes getting away from it all occasionally.
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I'm not into tinfoil hats and alien space rays nor antivaxing but with the first grandchild on the way the question was asked about our whooping cough vaccinations, etc. Now whilst my folk's generation were no doubt rapt in the ability to have my generation protected against dreaded polio, etc there are worrying signs that WC vaccination may be turning out like resistance to antibiotics as I discovered-
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-problem-of-waning-pertussis-immunity/
You can't innoculate newborns but they do with expectant mothers in the hope that their immunity will be passed on to bub and as much as you can inoculate family members with the triple shot it's now apparent that some of us carry the pertussis virus with no symptoms and with declining immunity generally, WC outbreaks have come back to haunt us again.
We're talking about long term epidemiological risk here and none of us can be smug about the long term intergenerational effects of vaccination, anymore than we can with the use of pharmacological treatments. With ready access to computing power since the 1980s we've been collecting and crunching a lot more data and interpreting it which can lead to discovering recent things like anti-inflammatories being associated with significant increased heart attack risk. Life's a risk/return tradeoff with everything we do and while I never believed in a new heart in a bottle of pills, you might still be gobbling your statins like the missus, while I smoked most of my life but I've been vaping my nicotine fix into my third year now on a real health kick. Nothing like it with the odd coffee now Treasurer, but how's the booze and the waistline with you risky thrillseekers? :cheers:
The best ones come after the happy hour
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Speak of the devil- https://www.businessinsider.com.au/what-a-universal-flu-vaccine-could-look-like-2017-5 (https://www.businessinsider.com.au/what-a-universal-flu-vaccine-could-look-like-2017-5)
“Even though they have seen the virus for many years, there’s so many changes so that almost nobody is protected,” Eliud Oloo, Sanofi’s manager of structure, genomics, and informatics told Business Insider.
That's not what we're told by the cotton wool merchants incessantly is it? Apparently everyone should have compulsory flu shots or be suitably punished forthwith as public enemy number one. Bit of a common theme going down here. There's the tinfoil hats and worryworts wanting to put the kybosh on pete79's towers on flimsy evidence and the ACCC being asked to allow roaming on Telstra towers because it's not fair that Optus and Voda customers don't have the same coverage. I'm bloody bemused that a lot of city slickers I talk to are gobsmacked that you don't get constant mobile coverage travelling across the Nullarbor. Err no it aint exactly like Burke and Wills out there on cruise control but you haven't heard of Flynn of the Outback and the pedal wireless? You know like some country folk aren't exactly glued to Facebook and Twitter 24/7 there panicky people. Sweet Jesus the effing nanny state and the umbilical cord and why a bloke likes getting away from it all occasionally.
.........Or maybe after after the rock n'roll night at the local bowlo.
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Personally I thought the ACCC's decision might go either way given the national pastime for believing Gummint can take care of everything that goes bump in the night and the temptation to think of all those poor Optus and Voda folk not getting their fair share of social media while out bush. Perhaps the thought of opening a can of worms with how much sharing and how much compensation for Telstra seemed a bit too much like real work for the overstuffed suits at the ACCC and they decided to leave well enough alone :cheers: