MySwag.org The Off-road Camper Trailer Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Julian Kaye on June 02, 2016, 09:35:17 AM
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I went to the Maitland Caravan and Camping Show last Sunday, my son is in the market for a camper so while he was talking to the sales people I thought I'd cast a critical eye. There was one camper from a pretty well known brand name, imported from you know where and when I slid underneath I was pretty shocked. First, a camper with an advertised tare of 1840kg and a 100x50x4 box section with welds that look like my work (and I can't weld to save myself). The floor was sheet metal which looked nearly thin enough to poke your finger through. There was at least 70% of the bulk of the trailer forward of the axle and when I asked about the ball weight I was told "about 300kg!". Worst of all was the bayonet gas fittings which protruded past the wheel flares! Now we constantly hear about improvements in the Chinese product and having imported products from China myself in the past I know they will try to pass anything over to an unwary importer, but it was pretty disappointing to see this from a camper that they were asking $25k for.
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Been done to death before on here mate. Best for people to make their own decisions and go into purchasing with their eyes wide open
Starsky
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Been done to death before on here mate. Best for people to make their own decisions and go into purchasing with their eyes wide open
Starsky
Yes I have to agree that this is a subject that has been well covered many times. And as the sellers of most of the "well known" brands are on the look out for criticism of their products nothing good will come out of mentioning them in less than a perfect light.
James
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Has GIC still got the threat of legal action hanging over Forum operators for allowing criticism of their products on their sites??
Pathetic
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Has GIC still got the threat of legal action hanging over Forum operators for allowing criticism of their products on their sites??
Pathetic
Forum members have been advised/instructed not to comment on this " abc Issue"
cheers
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Been done to death before on here mate. Best for people to make their own decisions and go into purchasing with their eyes wide open
Starsky
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Sorry about that, I didn't know there were topic nazis on the forum.
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Lets tread carefully guys and girls. Yes this topic has been done many times before and always seems to end in the same result with one of the mod team putting it to bed.
The GIC ban still exists to most threads and is watched. There may be no legal action over the forums heads at the moment but Brett's instructions still are in place
GG
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sad
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Been done to death before on here mate. Best for people to make their own decisions and go into purchasing with their eyes wide open
Starsky
Sorry about that, I didn't know there were topic nazis on the forum.
There isn't topic Nazis on this forum just plenty of long existing threads. There is only one topic we don't talk about as mentioned above.
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Lets tread carefully guys and girls. Yes this topic has been done many times before and always seems to end in the same result with one of the mod team putting it to bed.
The GIC ban still exists to most threads and is watched. There may be no legal action over the forums heads at the moment but Brett's instructions still are in place
GG
That being the case can one of the mods delete my earlier struck through comments . I do not want to have any comeback aimed at the forum .
:cheers:
James
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That being the case can one of the mods delete my earlier struck through comments . I do not want to have any comeback aimed at the forum .
:cheers:
James
hahaha - strike through is not the same as deleting but I like your sass :cup:
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hahaha - strike through is not the same as deleting but I like your sass :cup:
No, seriously they can be deleted. I can't seem to find a way to do it.
:cheers:
James
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Just delete the text if you really need it gone. The post will stay but so what?. Write, "I deleted this post" if you're concerned for posterity
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Delete the ****ing thread.. it aint hard.
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I don't think there is anything to worry about in the conversation so far.
GIC is now called Black Series by the way.
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So much for freedom of speech.
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There is no freedom of speech right in Australia, and FoS does not supersede libel and defamation laws, though there has been no suggestion of any such accusations in here as previous posts that I recall were the experiences of actual owners and truth and fact is not libellous.
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GIC is now called Black Series by the way.
And I wonder why :angel:
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And I wonder why :angel:
Because they are racist?
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That being the case can one of the mods delete my earlier struck through comments . I do not want to have any comeback aimed at the forum .
:cheers:
James
Removed for you
GG
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So much for freedom of speech.
I don't think comments like that help any discussion.
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And for the newer members here is the thread regarding the ban
http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=31568.msg496070#msg496070 (http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=31568.msg496070#msg496070)
GG
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wow
seems that they take there reputation seriously
I really hope any threads talking about GIC or black series in a good way also get removed
it can only be fair
that is if there ever is good thread about them ;D ;D ;D
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I don't think comments like that help any discussion.
Why's that? There's a big difference between targeted defamation and general discussions and opinions. It seems some of these xyz businesses can't tell the difference and pevert the legal system to their own ends, that in itself is a freedom of speech issue
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I think that kinda action almost does more damage to a company's reputation than good. In anything in life you can't have the good without the bad.
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(http://m.memegen.com/016j11.jpg)
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It's only defamation if it's a false statement , no reason why people can't comment on issues they have had but as the forum owner is responsible for this site the onus is on the owner to prove the statement by a member is true. Easier for the forum owner to remove the statements. Any company taking action though needs to grow a pair.
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I would have thought constructive criticism would be welcomed by a manufacturer of anything.
That way things can be manufactured differently with improvements made and thereby a better product would be the result. Then people sing praises of the product instead of slinging $hit.
Instead of threatining lawsuits or flaming people would it not be easier just to fix what is broken (or going to break) and be done with it?
Bill
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(https://hammer.ucla.edu/fileadmin/_processed_/csm_ButNotByMe_50fbcb822d.jpg)
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It's like bookface company's only showing approved comments. This puts doubt in the mind of the potential buyer. If I see a negative comment I still might be happy with the product with the knowledge that I can rectify the issue or live with it.
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It is an unfortunate reality that negative comment on a particular brand has been limited by bully boy tactics. The reason this has been successful is that whilst we are sure that any action could be defended the owners and administrators of this forum do not have the time or money to actually go and defend an action. Therefore we continue to ask that no members put us in a difficult position on this matter.
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(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SgU3ob-FbVo/UPF9zJwLrJI/AAAAAAAAB1w/9a6mx43Pmvs/s1600/Applemaps.png)
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It is an unfortunate reality that negative comment on a particular brand has been limited by bully boy tactics. The reason this has been successful is that whilst we are sure that any action could be defended the owners and administrators of this forum do not have the time or money to actually go and defend an action. Therefore we continue to ask that no members put us in a difficult position on this matter.
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Well said
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My great great grandfather was an imported camper in Tasmania. Very few houses with roofs in those days. Very cold nights with big fires. Think that's where I learned to build them. Australia may not be the great country it is today without imports.
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Think that's where I learned my trade
(http://www.troll.me/images/nek-minute-guy/car-breaks-down-in-dandenong-nek-minnit-sold-your-own-stereo.jpg)
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I noticed much the same after wandering around the same show.
The two campers that impressed me the most were the Mission and the Camel Campers - both sensible money for off road campers, and sensible weights (with sensible dimensions)
With some of the other brands, do you really need a tent village that is about the same size as the US Pentagon building?
I do think that some good ideas are trickling through from the Chinese campers - the small walk through at the end of the bed on the Camel was a particularly nice touch (less disturbance of SWMBO/less disturbance from SWMBO) and I think that has been influenced as a way of differentiating themselves from the cheaper campers. In that respect, there is a benefit to them being on the market.
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(http://www.troll.me/images/nek-minute-guy/car-breaks-down-in-dandenong-nek-minnit-sold-your-own-stereo.jpg)
More like this(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160602/e459a55cd23120adf8025b3bfd9deadc.jpg)
Plus without imported chinese products we mightn't know the delight of sweet and sour pork(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160602/80bdd34df63ec9f5ae952283eb137389.jpg)
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Let's not get carried away. Not all imports are welcome. Rats, foxes, plague, Budweiser...
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Carp, sheep.....and my great great grandfather. None of whom made the decision to come willingly
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My MTR's bag out well at 8psi :)
(http://www.gupatrol.com/myswag/mtr.bagging.jpg)
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I am pretty sure The original McGirr , who was a decendant of "Ben Dover and Phil McKraken" was imported into Australia from Ireland.
Mark
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I am pretty sure The original McGirr , who was a decendant of "Ben Dover and Phil McKraken" was imported into Australia from Ireland.
Mark
Their sister Eileen Dover was a little goer though.
She did get very upset when her dog, Run Dover, had a slight misfortune with the tractor.
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I would have thought constructive criticism would be welcomed by a manufacturer of anything.
That way things can be manufactured differently with improvements made and thereby a better product would be the result. Then people sing praises of the product instead of slinging $hit.
Instead of threatining lawsuits or flaming people would it not be easier just to fix what is broken (or going to break) and be done with it?
Bill
Agree and have seen many good Brands act this.
On a side note, I could suggest that Chrysler Australia are on a different page............
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I do think that some good ideas are trickling through from the Chinese campers
No wish to enter the debate about imports verses local content but I would like to clarify something which you commented upon. Just to be clear, no Chinese camper manufacturer is designing any campers, they are just copying Aussie designs or manufacturing an Aussie design for an Aussie company.
The idea of a walkthrough, or walk up, side fold, soft floor camper is an Aussie design. There are several Aussie manufacturers making this type of camper.
KB
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I do think that some good ideas are trickling through from the Chinese campers - the small walk through at the end of the bed on the Camel was a particularly nice touch (less disturbance of SWMBO/less disturbance from SWMBO) and I think that has been influenced as a way of differentiating themselves from the cheaper campers. In that respect, there is a benefit to them being on the market.
I thought Camel was Australian ?
http://www.camelcampertrailers.com.au/ (http://www.camelcampertrailers.com.au/)
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Camel are Australian, but didn't come up with that design.
There are ZERO good ideas being generated by the imports, they simply copy the R&D of local companies.
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...
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It's a funny world, yesterday I had a few spare minutes so I thought I'd make a few innocuous comments about imported campers I had looked over at the Maitland Show. Then the responses started, it had been done to death, GIC and legal action, freedom of speech. There were more tangents than a geometry book.
For all those who ran off half cocked, I was not having a go at GIC, I didn't mention that brand name and in fact was not even referring to them in my comments. I was not being over critical of imported campers, merely making the point that the one in particular that I looked at still had basic design and build issues.
At the end of the day I thought my observations may have been of interest, maybe next time I'll just keep my thoughts to myself.
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Camel are Australian, but didn't come up with that design.
There are ZERO good ideas being generated by the imports, they simply copy the R&D of local companies.
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yeah, I know, I was just re-enforcing KB's point, I'm not sure the OP realised
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I am pretty sure The original McGirr , who was a decendant of "Ben Dover and Phil McKraken" was imported into Australia from Ireland.
Mark
No Phil was a Scot. 😁
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It's a funny world, yesterday I had a few spare minutes so I thought I'd make a few innocuous comments about imported campers I had looked over at the Maitland Show...
At the end of the day I thought my observations may have been of interest, maybe next time I'll just keep my thoughts to myself.
Julian
I for one did think that your comments were worthwhile, & didn't think you were picking on anyone or being nasty :cup:
Yes, there have been a number of discussions about it, but how many other times are there multiple threads about "the best CT for me", "Waeco v Engel" etc etc etc :'( (not to mention 6B&S! >:D)
I particularly liked your comment about the CT having a ball weight of "about 300 kg". From other threads I've been reading recently, that would make it pretty well illegal to tow behind any Oz vehicle smaller than a 5t truck, so I think it's worthwhile to get the comment out there for new buyers to be aware to ask about details like that.
:cheers:
Graeme
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The issue may well have been discussed many times before and yet...
The questions about are imported campers any good still get asked regularly. Folks still compare the imports favourably to locally manufactured product.
There are still so many folks out there with recent experiences of being let down by quality and then after sales service or a complete lack thereof. This topic is still hot and relevant.
And sure, you or a bloke you know has never had an issue, and you knew you'd have to fix it all before you did anything, but most buyers don't know that and so many are still reporting being burnt.
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There are ZERO good ideas being generated by the imports, they simply copy the R&D of local companies.
I think just about all camper companies copy the R&D of other companies. I am sure most companies didn't come up with the initial concept for a soft floor camper, a rear fold or a forward fold in isolation but yes the Chinese manufacturers have taken it to a new level, I think that this is because they are manufacturers,not actual camper companies.
I think you can view what's happened in many other industries as an insight into what we will continue to see in the industry, with camper companies increasingly outsourcing their manufacturing to China for their own specified designs and the build quality of imports continually improving.
In short, I wouldn't expect the actual manufacturers to do R&D that will always be the job of the local company that is specifying and ordering what they want.
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I think just about all camper companies copy the R&D of other companies. I am sure most companies didn't come up with the initial concept for a soft floor camper, a rear fold or a forward fold in isolation but yes the Chinese manufacturers have taken it to a new level, I think that this is because they are manufacturers,not actual camper companies.
I think you can view what's happened in many other industries as an insight into what we will continue to see in the industry, with camper companies increasingly outsourcing their manufacturing to China for their own specified designs and the build quality of imports continually improving.
In short, I wouldn't expect the actual manufacturers to do R&D that will always be the job of the local company that is specifying and ordering what they want.
There is a certain company that buys units here and sends them to china to copy nearly bolt for bolt. They don't do any R & Anything.
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Amazing though, how many personal soap boxes appear, as soon as "Chinese", "Quality" and "camper trailer" are mentioned in the one post... :D
Also, slander and libel are basically the same matters, "the action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation."
I asked a member on another forum if a post should be remove if it was false...He did not respond. Funny that...
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I noticed much the same after wandering around the same show.
The two campers that impressed me the most were the Mission and the Camel Campers - both sensible money for off road campers, and sensible weights (with sensible dimensions) and are Australian or (in the case of the Mission) South African influenced
With some of the other brands, do you really need a tent village that is about the same size as the US Pentagon building?
I do think that some good ideas are trickling through from the arrival of the Chinese campers - the small walk through at the end of the bed on the Camel was a particularly nice touch (less disturbance of SWMBO/less disturbance from SWMBO) and I think that has been influenced as a way of the Australian manufacturers differentiating themselves from the cheaper campers. In that respect, there is a benefit to them being on the market.
My original post was a classic case of posting what was running out of your head, but not re-reading it to make sure that everyone else knew what it was that you were writing... bits in bold were bits I missed out...
I thought Camel was Australian ?
http://www.camelcampertrailers.com.au/ (http://www.camelcampertrailers.com.au/)
yeah, I know, I was just re-enforcing KB's point, I'm not sure the OP realised
Yep, I know it's an Aussie company... I've got the brochure here in front of me! I just neglected to add Australian/South African at the end of the sentence about the ones that impressed me.
No wish to enter the debate about imports verses local content but I would like to clarify something which you commented upon. Just to be clear, no Chinese camper manufacturer is designing any campers, they are just copying Aussie designs or manufacturing an Aussie design for an Aussie company.
The idea of a walkthrough, or walk up, side fold, soft floor camper is an Aussie design. There are several Aussie manufacturers making this type of camper.
KB
What I was trying to say is that there is very little to differentiate the campers in some peoples eyes (we know the differences, such as the Fat Barsteward weight of the Chinese ones) so in a bid to make the Australian products stand out in the crowded market place, they (the Australians) need to innovate and come up with new ideas.... much the same way that the Japanese car and motorbike manufacturers did to other country's domestic manufacturing in the 1970's.
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The Australian companies are innovating. And then they get copied and folks buy the cheaper import and demand to know why the guy who built mock ups and trials and who spent months and money on creating something new is asking more for his product.
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Amazing though, how many personal soap boxes appear, as soon as "Chinese", "Quality" and "camper trailer" are mentioned in the one post... :D
And the interesting part of that is, a lot of those on their soap boxes, have never owned one of these products and have no first hand experience of them. Not all, but a lot.
Apparently those 1000's of import owners who are happy with their trailer, either don't exist or are just wrong ???
This pic comes to mind, posted here by another member.
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(http://ct.fra.bz/ol/fz/sw/i58/5/6/1/frabz-MY-SAUSAGE-its-in-the-way-again-45f96a.jpg)
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It's always an interesting debate this. When I bought my camper trailer I had a 10k limit. I was also unsure wether my family would enjoy camping as much as I did when I was young. Sure I looked at Aussie trailers and if I had the money at the time yes I would have bought one but this was my entry point into this lifestyle. Has my trailer had some issues, yep. Have they been fixed with support from the manufacturer, yep. Am I glad I made the purchase and have opened my family's eyes to some beautiful places we have explored, yep........
When the kids are older we will upgrade to a hard floor or hybrid. At this stage the models I like are Aussie built but in the mean time.....
We take off in two weeks for three months so will be able to give a fairly good report on living with an import trailer then....
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p205/sjlcs/3EB273BE-C8D7-4AE9-976D-B315777C0861.jpg) (http://s129.photobucket.com/user/sjlcs/media/3EB273BE-C8D7-4AE9-976D-B315777C0861.jpg.html)
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The issue may well have been discussed many times before and yet...
The questions about are imported campers any good still get asked regularly. Folks still compare the imports favourably to locally manufactured product.
There are still so many folks out there with recent experiences of being let down by quality and then after sales service or a complete lack thereof. This topic is still hot and relevant.
And sure, you or a bloke you know has never had an issue, and you knew you'd have to fix it all before you did anything, but most buyers don't know that and so many are still reporting being burnt.
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I have no issue with this being discussed but don't really think it is going to help those buyers that don't already know or can spot there are differences. As others have said it's all been done before and if they don't read that then they likely won't read this.
A couple of years ago when I was researching I went and had a look at a few "Factory seconds" MDC were clearing out. When I was there I could literally match the trailers up with specific bad reviews I had read online. Yes there were some justifiable issues but for the most part, after reading the reviews and then seeing the trailers in the flesh I was left thinking, what were they expecting? do they go and buy a cheap Korean made car and then complain when it isn't to the standard of a high-end Merc at 5-10 x the cost?.
I bought a cheap Chinese camper second hand with eyes wide open, It had only been used once in a caravan park so for intensive purposes was new but there was no way I would have accepted it from the seller (not one of the majors) if I'd bought it new, I made my purchase based on value, my budget and intended use as I think most people do, quality of some bits is nowhere near an equivalent specd Aus made trailer but price was a 1/4 or less than what an equivalent would be. For the most part, the quality was good enough and what wasn't is rectifiable without too much hassle.
I think sometimes you can't protect people from their own stupidity, if they did ANY research they wouldn't be going in with unrealistic expectations in the first place.
(on a side note I think a lot of the dodgy stuff happened here in the assembly, not in China in the manufacturing)
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Shane, as I posted earlier, everyone knows someone who has never had a problem, but I can say that i have met many people who have had issues; some small, some significant. My concern is the number of people who do have issues, as a proportion often market and it's significant. People are losing hard earned money and not having the enjoyable experience they bought into.
Let me also make a point here: it's not the Chinese bloke that built the trailer that is doing people wrong, it is the importers and sellers who take money and then stiff their customer on warranty support for instance.
Campers like most things can have issues; it's how the manufacturer or seller deals with that matters.
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There is a certain company that buys units here and sends them to china to copy nearly bolt for bolt. They don't do any R & Anything.
Whilst I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case is this something you have seen evidence of or was it a case of hearing it through Chinese whispers?
The Australian companies are innovating. And then they get copied and folks buy the cheaper import and demand to know why the guy who built mock ups and trials and who spent months and money on creating something new is asking more for his product.
I don't know that I would really call a lot of what I have seen really as innovation, for the most part, I think it's refinements which the importers do to a lesser extent. When I first saw the Patriot campers I thought wow that's different, then looked a bit further and realised there were already similar concepts around. I don't think people begrudge someone charging more money for a concept they have designed and developed, it's the amount people cannot justify in their head. Predominately through the large difference in prices isn't down to R&D costs but the high cost of manufacturing in Australia. That's why I foresee an increase in the outsourcing of the manufacturing component, less trial and error with a guy in his shed as the design process and a more of a CAD and actually engineered design process.
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Whilst I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case is this something you have seen evidence of or was it a case of hearing it through Chinese whispers
Its well known. No secrets...No whispers about it. A certain company has been doing it for years.
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You think the Chinese factories use CAD? You're funny.
Suggesting Patriot is an evolution is like suggesting that Falcon is just a Model T with a few changes. Four tyres and a steering don't mean they're similar.
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Let me also make a point here: it's not the Chinese bloke that built the trailer that is doing people wrong, it is the importers and sellers who take money and then stiff their customer on warranty support for instance.
Campers like most things can have issues; it's how the manufacturer or seller deals with that matters.
:cup:
I really dislike the 'Chinese imports are crap' argument.
I have a friend who makes items in China and imports them to Europe. His comments: "If you ask for crap they'll build you crap. If you ask for quality they'll build you quality".
Ultimately it is the importers and 'manufacturers' who are responsible for the quality that hits their showrooms and that they sell. They're the ones allowing rubbish in.
Ask yourselves - where are Apple, Burberry, Armani, and Prada products made? Who are the world leaders in Solar Technology? Got an LG air conditioner? Guess where its made. Hmmm, Want to buy Mercedes Benz E class W212?... lots of parts built and assembled by Beijing Benz Automotive. Listen to music on your Sennheiser headphones? Yup you guessed it. China makes 80 per cent of the world's air conditioners and 90% of the world's PC's... etc etc
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:cup:
I really dislike the 'Chinese imports are crap' argument.
I have a friend who makes items in China and imports them to Europe. His comments: "If you ask for crap they'll build you crap. If you ask for quality they'll build you quality".
The importers and 'manufacturers' are responsible for the quality that hits their showrooms and that they sell.
Ask yourselves - where are Apple, Burberry, Armani, and Prada products made? Who are the world leaders in Solar Technology? Got an LG air conditioner? Guess where its made. Hmmm, Want to buy Mercedes Benz E class W212?... lots of parts built and assembled by Beijing Benz Automotive. China makes 80 per cent of the world's air conditioners and 90% of the world's PC's... etc etc
China being like that always.
If you go to a factory and say build me an amg sl mercedes for $10g. They will do it.
Everything to a price
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I would also like to acknowledge that I have seen improvement in one brand. MDC have, IMO, substantially improved their offering and also own up to country of origin.
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You think the Chinese factories use CAD? You're funny.
Thank you, I'm here all week. In all serious pretty sure Chinese factories don't build the iPhone from a few bits of paper, of course they can use CAD, Do they use it now to build campers, I think that would come down to complexity but as most are currently pretty low tech they probably don't need it. That isn't however what I was saying, I was saying is that is what I expect to happen in the future.
Suggesting Patriot is an evolution is like suggesting that Falcon is just a Model T with a few changes. Four tyres and a steering don't mean they're similar.
I suggested the concept/form of the patriot camper wasn't all that different to some others when I looked, the engineering side of things is however, a large leap forwards for CT's and one of the basis for more rationale of where I see the industry heading.
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I would also like to acknowledge that I have seen improvement in one brand. MDC have, IMO, substantially improved their offering and also own up to country of origin.
I'll agree with that. probably part of why they have sold over 50,000 (edit this is from memory and could be wrong likely 30,000ish from comment below) of them. Being open to criticism has allowed them to refine their offering as well as opposed to others.
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I find when posting such information the words " in my Opinion " repeated where appropriate in the post. Really does take the sting out of leagl shenanigans! It's not just staring a fact it's stating my opinion nothing more and we all know about opinions ? Yep everyone has one of those al well!
I stand to be corrected but there was a case in WA a while back where someone was hauled to court and those 3 little words saved her !
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... probably part of why they have sold over 50,000 of them.
would have nothing to do with price
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I'll agree with that. probably part of why they have sold over 50,000 of them.
Just under two years ago I was quoted, by MDC in a message, that they had sold 20,000 and selling 86 per week. Do the maths and I can't see how they have sold 30,000 in two years. They also quoted a turnover of $30,000,000. It won't be too long before the industry in Australia reached peak load and sales will drop. It will be very interesting to see what the marketplace is like in five years. Who will be the sellers who hold on?
:cheers:
James
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Just under two years ago I was quoted, by MDC in a message, that they had sold 20,000 and selling 86 per week. Do the maths and I can't see how they have sold 30,000 in two years. They also quoted a turnover of $30,000,000. It won't be too long before the industry in Australia reached peak load and sales will drop. It will be very interesting to see what the marketplace is like in five years. Who will be the sellers who hold on?
I were sure I had read them quote that figure but can't find it now so I may have got it wrong, I have updated my post. Future will be interesting indeed, who will hold on? my guess from looking at other industries would be those who offer a premium product manufactured here and others who offshore their manufacturing but maintain a reasonable quality, but that is probably more like a 10 yr outlook. I think MDC probably fill the niche where a lot will end up, a reasonable offering at a cheap price. I think we will see a lot of the very cheap and nasties fall away, there is only so long you can keep that up, and I think those that market entry to mid levels but manufacturer locally will struggle.
would have nothing to do with price
That would be the other part of the value equation.
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and selling 86 per week.
I'd love to see the production line doing the Pre Delivery inspections on them at 17 a day
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Looks like this old thread has reignited again.. Anyways my 2c.
Firstly I don't blame China for copying Oz made campers. I do blame the Aussies who took measurements, photos and in some obvious cases sent an Oz made CT over to China and said make this, like this but cheap. It was Aussies ripping off other Aussies plans and development work.
Some of these are just blatant and obvious clone copies of the Oz made original. Sadly, some of these companies have even used a similar model name on the CT/Hybrid/caravan so they are stealing the Oz made manufactures model number as well. To me that should be a crime and it is a damn shame to the oz made developers who did the original OT&E just to have the idea stolen from them.
In saying that, I have never seen an Oz made CT that looks the same as my import. Nope, not even similar.
A lot of these CT sellers that directly import campers from China have certainly let down the customer when it comes to warranty issues; sadly I put this down to greed. I say greed as some of them are doubling their investment and giving SFA support with warranty.
I remember being told my imported CT would be a pile of rust within two years, it would fall to bits on its first real trip off road. The canvas would rot, the zippers would break, the wiring was dodgy with wires just twisted together, and a lot more other stories.
It is still alive after three years, hasn't rusted or fallen apart yet, no probs with rotting canvas, no zipper failures and all the joined wiring was soldered and heat shrunk; maybe next year everything will fail ;D.
Either way, I have been out exploring, 4wding, camping and enjoying the life style that goes with all of those things at a fraction of the cost of buying an equivalent Oz made CT. I am not sorry for making that decision or the decision to own cars imported from Overseas or buying 90% of my clothes and household goods that also are imported from overseas. It is just a fact of life with just about everything we buy.
As people would know that have read my CT thread, I have modified my CT in a lot of areas to improve its capability. I got my CT $4-5k below retail price. Most of my mods havnt cost a whole lot of $$$ but I have certainly spent a lot of my own time completing them. A lot of these mods have been addressed by importers so the newer models are so much better than mine was 3'years ago.
Not all similar looking imported CT's are the same quality. I agree with KB, MDC have certainly lifted their game on their product but I am pretty sure I know where they got some of their original designs from.
I remember going to the camping show in Cairns last year looking at about 7 or 8 different branded companies importing the same looking hard floor rear folding CT. On close inspection, the quality between the best and the worst was a huge difference. The price tag however was very similar between all of them. Buyer beware, if you don't know what you are looking at, swallow your pride and either pay someone or get a mate with the knowledge to check it over for you.
I have met quite a few members of the forum whom have had a real good look over my CT. Quite a few members have said to me that in hindsight, they wished that they had bought a CT like mine instead of paying the extra $$$ to get Oz made. Some of these members are very intelligent, capable tradies that can weld, fabricate and modify their own vehicles and CT's so they know what they are talking about.
As I have said on many occasions, I couldn't care whether your CT or vehicle was made in Oz or imported. I don't judge people on those things nor do I criticise them for it. Either way, I just want to go camping. :cheers: to all. Muz.
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As an owner and fan of a LCT (Lifestyle Camper Trailers) hybrid; I am a bit amazed at the amount of similarities between the innovators, and the ripoffs*.... (read LCT & MDC).......
But as others have said. ... it's not the Chinese manufacturers at blame; it's the onshore companies blatantly stealing* these concepts that are the bit ordinary. ....
But that's nothing new - at the end of the day it's all about people taking advantage* of others' toil and R&dev.... and consumers "bagging a bargain" ... most of the savings in the buying prices being down to* the cost of labour, and the savings in not paying anything for your own R&dev*....
For the Brisbanites and others; good thing the Caravan show is coming up - so that it may give people a good chance of accurately comparing. .... quality vs dollars. ...
Disclaimer *imho :)
Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk
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The shows are useful
Take someone along with an engineering background if you aren't sure. All the hoo haa about Only being allowed to comment if you own one is garbage. Qualified tradesmen know quality upon close inspection and at the show that is easy to look over all of them, ask the awkward questions and see through some of the embarrassing sales tactics
Shows and forums are really good to help buyers make an informed choice, the fact that one business resorts to legal action speaks volumes.
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I'd love to see the production line doing the Pre Delivery inspections on them at 17 a day
No prob.
Drawbar - seen /
Wheels - 2 of /
Sides - there /
Lid - there /
OK, another one all ticked off & ready to go! Is it smoko time yet? >:D
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No prob.
Drawbar - seen /
Wheels - 2 of /
Sides - there /
Lid - there /
OK, another one all ticked off & ready to go! Is it smoko time yet? >:D
British Leyland style quality assurance at it's best.... :D
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Ezytrail posted an interesting blog on their web page. Worth a read while thinking about Chinese campers.
http://www.ezytrailcampertrailers.com.au/blog/the-chinese-camper-trailer-paradigm/ (http://www.ezytrailcampertrailers.com.au/blog/the-chinese-camper-trailer-paradigm/)
Cheers,
Salty.
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Those who know me also know that I have an Australian made camp trailer. I have had this trailer for 7 years and at the time of purchase I decided that this Australian made soft floor camp trailer fitted my style of camping and was a great platform to adapt/modify for my own personnel needs and requirements.
I have towed ( flogged ) this trailer up to the cape and over some of the roughest tracks in the Great Far North , as yet all that I have had to repair is a broken/lost spring hanger pin/bolt, and weld a couple of cracks up that were due to my modifications not the builders design or manufacturing.
Yes I am very happy with my Australian made camp trailer, BUT
I have met quite a few members of the forum whom have had a real good look over my CT. Quite a few members have said to me that in hindsight, they wished that they had bought a CT like mine instead of paying the extra $$$ to get Oz made. Some of these members are very intelligent, capable tradies that can weld, fabricate and modify their own vehicles and CT's so they know what they are talking about.
:cheers: to all. Muz.
If I were to buy a Camp trailer today I would be buying an Imported camp trailer.
For the same money that I spent on my Australian built camp trailer seven years ago, I could buy an Imported camp trailer today with more features ( even after all my mods ) better looking ( more bling ) and in a hard floor. AND still have some change.
Yes, I may have had to do some more repairs over the same period of time, but after all how many days/weeks do we actually spend away in our camp trailer.
Most people are like me and they store their camp trailer away from the elements when not been used, so they don't deteriorate all that much over a long period of time.
Most of the reports that I have heard of or read about on Imported camp trailers are simple repairs.
Shoddy welds - simple - grind, clean and re-weld
Shoddy wiring - again simple - clean , solder and heat shrink.
Buggered shocks - replace with better quality - again very simple .
Wheel bearings - as above - replace with better quality - again very simple .
There are some who have complained about canvas quality/workmanship , this is also stated by some owners of Australian built campers.
It comes down to peoples expectations , there is a saying , "You only get what you pay for " and if you expect to get a Rolls Royce but only prepared to spend a Minnie Minor budget you are going to be disappointed.
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Thanks for posting this up, Salty... an interesting read..
But I had to smile at some of Mr Porter's self-justifications; self promotion; and "spin"...
Take a look at his last "busted myth" - and look below at my tongue-in-cheek rewrite of it ... a different version of reality, if you like... LOL
Myth No. 6 (the Final Myth)
“Chinese Imports take jobs away from local manufacturers”, Ezytrail has three assembly plants in Australia, all of which employ labour to build and assemble our trailers, we have over 50 employees’ from Sales Staff and Admin to Graphic Designers and Web builders, Assemblers and Stores Staff throughout our various Branch’s nationwide that make up the Ezytrail Group of companies. We think we are supporting Australian jobs even if many don’t, you can be that judge of that yourselves as we are continuously growing year by year.
Dean Porter
Group General Manager
Myth No. 6 (the Final Myth) RE-WRITE
“Chinese Imports take jobs away from local manufacturers”
# Well of course we have to admit that this is true..
# Whilst Ezytrail does have 3 assembly plants in Australia, all of which by necessity have to begrudging employ relatively very expensive Aussie labour to build and assemble our Chinese manufactured trailers...
# I can say that we still do have over 50 employees here in Australia... But I don't need to mention how many are full time; casual; or contracted employees, do I?
# From Sales Staff; and Admin; to Graphic Designers; and Web builders, Assemblers; and Stores Staff throughout our various Branch’s nationwide; ...that make up the Ezytrail Group of companies.
# If this appears a little like "smoke and mirrors" - of course I am dredging up every last one of our workers I can think of to get to the 50 body count...
# We don't really think we are supporting Australian jobs; as many would agree.
# If we really cared about that - we would be employing not 50; but 500 workers - most of whom would be involved in the hands-on part of our CT manufacturing process... Yep - all the stuff we are getting done in China at the moment...,
# But we do know that many of you will continue to be the judge of that yourselves as we are continuously growing year by year - as you all continually flock to our products; because we can sell cheaper than the locally manufactured stuff...
BaseCamp
Proud Aussie
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Ezytrail posted an interesting blog on their web page. Worth a read while thinking about Chinese campers.
http://www.ezytrailcampertrailers.com.au/blog/the-chinese-camper-trailer-paradigm/ (http://www.ezytrailcampertrailers.com.au/blog/the-chinese-camper-trailer-paradigm/)
Cheers,
Salty.
Interesting that you mention this particular brand. My original comments were not so much aimed at the "Chinese product" but rather the level of expertise of companies doing the importing. Just to give an example, I looked at three different camper trailers last Sunday, they were all the same camper but imported under three different "brands". Camper 1 had a tare of 1840kg, camper 2 had a tare of 1620kg and camper 3 had a tare of 1380kg. All three had near identical equipment levels. This is not an issue of the manufacturer but the spin of the Australian importer. How can you have a variance of nearly 500kg in the tare weight of three identical products? Some companies are having people on. For what it's worth I reckon the quality of the imported product has improved considerably over the last five years, I just don't know that you can make the same claim about the people importing them.
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For what it's worth I reckon the quality of the imported product has improved considerably over the last five years, I just don't know that you can make the same claim about the people importing them.
Very well said :cup:
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Ezytrail posted an interesting blog on their web page. Worth a read while thinking about Chinese campers.
http://www.ezytrailcampertrailers.com.au/blog/the-chinese-camper-trailer-paradigm/ (http://www.ezytrailcampertrailers.com.au/blog/the-chinese-camper-trailer-paradigm/)
Myth No. 1
“Our products are unique and we were the first to design them, everyone else copies us”, Did you know? The Rear Fold Hard Floor Camper Trailer is an Australian design from about the mid-1960s, however the Forward Fold Hard Floor Camper trailer was designed in China by the owner of one of the largest Camper Trailer Manufacturers over there.
Reality
The Chinese factories copied an already in production Australian forward fold camper trailer. The first ones having been produced as far back as the mid 1980's and over the next ten years or so were refined by others. And, yes the original concept has been copied even by Oz manufactures, but the concept remains Australian. The first time I saw an Australian made forward fold was 2010 and I went on to purchase from that manufacturer two years later. So, a fair question to ask is when did the first Chinese made one sell here and who was the company that imported it? Of course over time the Chinese factories have evolved their designs and features and some assemblers/importers have invested money in their own products and to be fair the quality has improved on some brands. However, I find it quite annoying when companies who import/assemble Chinese products try to reinvent the history of camper trailers in Oz. For the record the information I have regarding forward fold evolution in Oz come from a well respected and long term Australian camper trailer manufacturer.
:cheers:
James
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Camper 1 had a tare of 1840kg, camper 2 had a tare of 1620kg and camper 3 had a tare of 1380kg. All three had near identical equipment levels. This is not an issue of the manufacturer but the spin of the Australian importer. How can you have a variance of nearly 500kg in the tare weight of three identical products? Some companies are having people on.
Much has been said about the 'Australian' product and how it has been 'knocked off' by the Chinese.
The original Australian product in many instances has significant design and manufacturing deficiencies, particularly in relation to weight. Dodgy tare, gross and ball weight data is commonplace for many of these lauded products.
It is now common place to have new vehicle suspension upgraded and other engineering 'enhancements' done to enable the vehicle to tow these wonderful products. Australian manufacturers seem to be immune to criticism in relation to their deficiencies despite being fundamental to road safety. It is depressing to see that many of these 'premium' brands have done little or nothing to correct these solvable problems. Those marketing imported products are in very good company it would seem.
Modern design (CNC, CAD and Finite Element Analysis to name a few) and manufacturing techniques coupled with new light weight materials should make it easy to make necessary changes or modifications. These same manufacturers do little because many are lazy and we continue to buy the product anyway. Why change when you are onto a 'good thing' I guess.
The only thing that may change their behavior is competition. For the recored I do not and have never owned a Chinese camper. Would I? Absolutely, if the quality and value for money stacked up.