MySwag.org The Off-road Camper Trailer Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: jetcrew on April 14, 2016, 10:09:57 AM
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Following on from my comments in another thread and as a result of the issues with both the unit and the service I thought I would at least provide this info for others to make informed decisions.
This is in no way a dig at anyone or steering people away from the product ..JUST BE INFORMED
My issue started with the first use .
After pulling the release handle to adjust between positions as I wanted it at the highest point the unit dropped down fast and the bolt head on the side which is apparently a bump stop snapped/sheared straight off ..first use and a broken part. ( have confirmed this bolt is designed to limit the down ward travel ....it is not up to the task obviously)
Moving on I then clicked the unit in its highest extension and wound out the advertised 250mm extension in each of the 4 positions to get an idea of the height I would need and its stability at each level and ease of movement . this was done on flat concrete surface. I did push the camper back and forth seeing how easy or hard this was.
After this I then tried to move the unit back through its 4 positions, this became difficult to do and I initially thought the bolt head snapping off may have been a locator or something thus now causing the unit to be difficult to use.( later confirmed as not relevant to the shaft in any way just a bump stop)
So I have had to persevere with the shaft and its want to bind up in the lower 2 settings. when i pull the handle i need to apply force to get the inner box shaft to move inside the outer section BUT ONLY for the bottom 2 settings, after that the unit flies down in the top 2 settings .
remember the bump stop bolt that only lasted 1 use ..well yesterday the unit flew down again and wiped out the grease nipple on the other side.
So after 4 calls and no return call ..plus a 2 day old un responded to email, I call up again this morning .
I am told no one is there to take my inquiry again ..I comment that this has happened before and I really need to speak with someone.. I get put through begrudgingly to XXXXXX (name withheld as was a nice bloke) he works in the engineering dept.
Some facts from speaking with the engineer.
1- they have no spare parts AT ALL... parts are salvaged from returned units EDIT - this is as a result of the massive popularity of the unit and they are trying to increase supply and production
2- if you have the unit at the highest extension position 4 ..YOU SHOULD NOT EXTEND THE FULL 250mm this causes the internal thing to bend thus causing the issue i have . they refer to this as user error .
3- after sales service is very poor. EDIT ( all staff were at the show and office was on skeleton staff ...see last post by me for great customer service outcome)
So i explained that I was simply using the unit as instructed by the marketing he reply was "well they dont listen to us when they market units but at full extension do not wind it out 250mm or you will bend it and they call it user error".
he offered to see if there was a returned unit he could salvage some parts from and send to me if I was handy i could strip the old one and replace parts.
So what does all this mean ...I think the unit is good but it has some inherent design issues that are problematic, the advertised extension is by their own engineer a recipe for failure that will not be covered by warranty. had i known not to extend the 250mm at position 4 I would not have but they advertise this as its main feature.
I am not an idiot and treat all my gear with respect the sheer fact that thier own engineer is saying something different to the glossy advertising is cause for concern and labeling it User error is very poor form IMHO. even if I buy a new one the unit will suffer the exact same issues if i use it again as per the advertising.
I will be following the matter up with customer service as soon as someone can respond to my calls or emails or someone is in the office to accept my call.. i,m not holding my breath.
As said this is not a brand bash or sour grapes.. I am happy i used the unit as per the advertising and its failures are not a result of abuse or misuse ..as you all know the camper only left the shed last week for the first time I simply want to make other aware that if you extend it all the way out it will bend internally.
Will keep the thread updated with an further developments. But so far very disappointing, it seems I am not the only person to have the issue as the engineer said most of the drive units have already been taken of the returned ones so i may have to wait until another one is returned and he will see if the drive unit is ok and send it to me with instructions on how to replace it.
jet :D
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Give consumer affairs a call, this sort of thing is covered under the act in several areas
1/ Not fit for use
2/ False and misleading advertising
Consumer affairs can pursue the company involved and prosecute them
You're entitled to return the goods to the place of purchase for a full refund/replacement
My suggested course of action would be to call consumer affairs and explain the situation to them and ask their advice, they will tell you what to do. They may call the company direct or suggest that you call them back and tell them that you have spoken with consumer affairs and that if they don't rectify your concerns further action will be taken
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Might be worth reposting here-
http://www.arkcorp.com.au/boards (http://www.arkcorp.com.au/boards)
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Glad i didn't buy one. My trailer, not a camper, is big and heavy. Was thinking of getting one very soon and was worried about the height and strength etc, as my hitch is 770mm high to hook up to.
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Now I'm not bashing this unit either as I really do like the unit and the function of multiple heights.
But make sure you have a big hammer with you after travelling on dirt as it jams up and adjustment is via large belts with the hammer.
Mind you after getting home I cleaned it back like new and it is working fine.
Rob.
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Thanks for what I believe is an objective review of the unit. Some quite disturbing flaws in the product it would appear.
I was just about to buy one but must re-think now.
What, if any are the alternatives in a good quality swivel type jockey wheel?
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Update..
I called back at the agreed time and was eventually put through to a manger of some sort who was at the show in Sydney but still took time to talk with me.
As I mentioned above I am in no way attempting to blame all the issues on the unit itself ..as the user i did grad the release handle and simply pull it, this released the unit to travel downwards unobstructed at a rate of knots until it impacted on the bolt head stopper sheering it clean off.
As I have been advised the bolt head stopper was not designed to arrest that kind of force. it was simply put there as a guide to know you dont need to lower it any further. We shared some ideas about future development and maybe an idiot proof stopper. or just change the idiot ;D
Further to this it should be noted that adjustment between the 4 positions are best off done horizontally not vertically , then swivel it down.
The loss of the grease nipple is now a result of the first incorrect usage of the jockey wheel so its a sort of flow on effect. Same cause 2nd effect of the cause.
As for the full extension and the bending, this will be caused by movement of the jockey wheel when extended out and you should not move the trailer at all when at full extension, the less amount of wound out shaft the better and stronger the unit will be . I have now noted this.
All in all I suppose like a lot of businesses they are on skeleton staff trying to service the show as well , but i guess I had visions of a massive multinational company with 100 of staff ..this may not be the case.
What i can say is this..
The manager I spoke with was prepared to listen to my concerns, he appreciated my honesty in how the issues occurred, took on board my points regarding advertising vs usage and I also conceded a little as well as he made some very sound points.
His No 1 focus was finding a solution that I was happy with as the customer and said so right from the start of our conversation so :cup: :cup: to ARK for that.
So we have reached an agreement that will see some $$$ change hands but it is a solution I am happy with as I had conceded that I did play a role in the issues of the unit from the first usage. He also agreed that maybe the unit itself should be a little more robust but where do you stop.we agreed to meet each other a little past halfway in my favor so to speak in order to bring about a positive outcome for all involved.
My future usage will be adjusted now that I have a much better understanding of the unit and the pitfalls or minor design idiosyncrasy that make it susceptible to damage. and a better understanding of how it works.
Its still the best one out there after doing lots of research today but you just need to be careful of the following.
1- do not pull the release handle in a vertical position if the actual wheel wont contact the ground before the unit hits the stop bolt. In cases where it will allow full drop.. support the weight of the unit and conduct a controlled adjustment of the height.
2- Do not move the trailer when the 250mm wound out adjustment is at max in any height setting , if your at 250mm in position 2 then make an adjustment to position 1 and then only have 200mm wound out if that makes sense.
3- If possible make you position adjustments when its horizontal not vertical thus reducing the risk of the issues in point 1.
In summary I say this
Top marks to ARK for the service ..it took some time to get on to the right people but once that happened no BS at all just a good committed attitude to customer service.
The unit itself is the go to wheel in the current market and I hope I saved both other users and ARK some headaches and grief by documenting this so others can learn from my mistakes and identify weak points.
Maybe if i get time I will do up a little video of pitfalls or common mistakes as I got the impression I may not have been the first to do this .
Jet ;D ;D
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Hey Jet - glad you had an outcome of sorts - just read through your posts carefully..
In the next week or so - I will be starting a thread on the AUSTRALIAN engineered; and made; and patented:
BOS370 Jockey Wheel System...
www.bos370.com.au/
I am getting John over at LCT to install the double pneumatic unit; with extra base plate and other bits etc; later next week.
Some readers here will recall me discussing these units before Christmas...
I have been waiting since approx DEC 2015 for them to develop the correct size leg; (for AT Hybrids etc)... And now these units are ready...
I spoke with Bronwyn from BOS a couple of times about this - earlier this week... She was so friendly and competent to talk with AND YES - she was taking inquiries from the BOS work phone number - that was being diverted to her; whilst she was standing at the BOS trade booth at the Rose Hill show .... What a champ! :cup: :cup: :cup:
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I could never find a price on their stuff and a message from 6 mths ago is still unanswered. so i had written them off, emailed them again yesterday and no response.
Without a price its hard to consider one.
Jet ;D
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Nice work, I have only had my extreme jockey wheel a week today and am glad you were able to share these idiosyncrasies for my and others future use although unfortunatly at your cost. Hope you get it sorted.
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Good outcome Jet :cup: Unnecessary lesson though
I note your comment
"As for the full extension and the bending, this will be caused by movement of the jockey wheel when extended out and you should not move the trailer at all when at full extension, the less amount of wound out shaft the better and stronger the unit will be . I have now noted this."
Through bitter experience, I learnt this lesson with a lessor jockey wheel. Never move a trailer with a jockey wheel at full height extension >:( I have since upgraded to the Ark and am very happy with its performance. Thanks for the heads up about its limitations so hopefully others will not make the same mistakes.
KB
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Very true mate, I guess I got to confident in the product and wanted to TEST it out against its claims. I still dont think what i did on level concrete in the shed could possibly have caused the bent shaft and as today's conversation alluded too..who knows if the unit had a slight twist before I got it.
its been handled to many times by too many people to 100% support any factual findings even though i have not used the camper much.
In any case, i know its not indestructible and know a lot more about the unit now so the replacement unit should live a happy well cared for life.
Still love the concept and design, and I am sure the next version will be even better when/If they do an update.
Jet ;D
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Many thanks for sharing your experience Jet....very helpful.
Cheers
Rob
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Hi Jet - this is a cut&paste of sorts from a pdf - from their recent quote...
Obviously these units are an additional $200-$300 on top of what the ARK units cost..
But in my case - if I get 5+ good and trouble free years out of it - then the extra "blowout cost" is 'only' about $50 extra per year - or there abouts...
I have already wrecked one of the alko extreme jockey wheels supplied by LCT that came with my AT-11... and another (non all-terrain / standard Alko kindly supplied by Green RV) - is on shaky grounds as well... (This is because the Purple Line van mover I use acts like a bit of a torque bulldozer and when the JWs get stuck on a concrete lip in the rear car park - "boom"...
So I am looking for something as strong as possible...
If you drill into the detail of the best-of-the-best promotional video ARK use to spruke their Jockey Wheel- you may see (a) a few (edited) jump-cuts as they are dragging the CT through the mud via winch - which raises my suspicions a little bit... (b) In another part of their promo video - you see the Jockey wheel bending noticeably; as its under a lot of load... (c) Then towards the end of the promotion - you see their Jockey wheel actually jam and twist and lock -- side on - chocking on mud; as its plowing the muddy rut.... This is a pet hate of mine...
Now in comparison - I have no idea how the BOS370 will travel... and this post is not about "one being unilaterally better than the other..." Life rarely works out like that IMHO...
BOS JOCKEY WHEELS & ACCESSORIES
PRODUCT QUOTE
BOS JOCKEY QUOTE
Quote Date: 05 APR 2016 Print Date: 05 APR 2016
Fax No: 02 9623 8400 Salesman: Bronwyn van den Bos
Phone No: 02 9623 6900 Page No 1 of 1
OPTION A
Single Pneumatic 4x4 Tyre & 500 Jockey Kit $410 inc GST
OPTION B
Double Pneumatic 4x4 Tyre & 500 Jockey Kit $490.00 inc GST
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I'm a visual guy so :worthles: of the damage
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These probably ain't the pictures you were wanting to see LOL...
(For the BOS370 -- see my link a few posts back)..
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160414/f5d3e008d03296437b40e9349f66a846.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160414/b8b82d9b1041d31e20e70d4209df30ec.jpg)
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160414/6222c58f950f1254d153adf7a960e883.jpg)
This last pic is of the rescue term that John at LCTs kindly sent to get me going.... At that time I was too lame to have a crack at fixing it myself....
John has refused any sort of payment for this platinum grade amazing service BTW. ...
Now when I sent that replacement jockey wheel to heaven ...(thanks to the Purple Line Mover) -- I learnt me self how to fit the next one; which Adam had been kind enough to help me out with. ...
Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk
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The only downside with the BOS is that it doesn't have anywhere near the weight capacity of the ARK, mobile or static.
As i said earlier, my trailer is big and heavy (7m x2.4 flatdeck) so i may be better of with just a landing leg anyhow, although i can move it when empty, on concrete, with the current, ugly and huge jockey wheel
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The old ratchet jockey wheel that I am currently using to move my swan outback around looks and feels like a very solid bit of kit....just have to remember to remove it while traveling and store it away.
Had I not removed it from the A frame before arriving at the caravan park where we recently stayed....I'm sure that the jockey wheel would definately have fowled the gutter when reversing the van into its alotted spot and I would also have either mangled the jockey wheel or tore the holding bracket off....or both.
Cheers
Rob
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The specifications sheet for the dual phumatics says 2250kgs.... I think the ARKs are 2500kgs....
Also Bronwyn at BOS says the chunky tyre version (not the red tyres) -- won't work very well on concrete surfaces. ... more of a sand; grass; and mud thing ...
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A big claim-
"ARK XO Series Offroad Jockey wheel - AWSOME!
This is the best camper trailer or caravan jockey wheel in the land. Check out the you tube video's in sand and rough muddy tracks."
But it looks the goods compared to those bent and busted ones-
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ARK-XO-Series-Off-Road-Jockey-Wheel-/111900900518?hash=item1a0dd03ca6:g:2h8AAOSwG-1Wus84 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ARK-XO-Series-Off-Road-Jockey-Wheel-/111900900518?hash=item1a0dd03ca6:g:2h8AAOSwG-1Wus84)
Nevertheless you'd still have to be circumspect about what surface you're trying to move what weight on.
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The specifications sheet for the dual phumatics says 2250kgs.... I think the ARKs are 2500kgs....
Also Bronwyn at BOS says the chunky tyre version (not the red tyres) -- won't work very well on concrete surfaces. ... more of a sand; grass; and mud thing ...
Sent from my SM-N910G using Tapatalk
Where does it say that? The only thing i can see on their data sheet is 275kg rated for the dual pneumatic, 400kg for the dual hard wheel.
The ARK is rated to 750kg, static and 500kg mobile, obviously not at full extension though.
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As i said earlier, my trailer is big and heavy (7m x2.4 flatdeck) so i may be better of with just a landing leg anyhow,
Ours is only a 6.2m and the best thing I've done is fit a landing leg.
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Where does it say that? The only thing i can see on their data sheet is 275kg rated for the dual pneumatic, 400kg for the dual hard wheel.
The ARK is rated to 750kg, static and 500kg mobile, obviously not at full extension though.
Yeah - I've read that wrong on their spec sheet; oops..
And the 275kgs has me a bit concerned - if ARKs 500kg mobile seems to have varied results?
(I am reflecting on the ARK promo video here; as well as the concerns Jet had...) I know Jet's concerns with the unit occured when the thing was stationary...
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wherer the ark has it over the rest is the physical size of the unit and its box section, the boss still uses the clamp thing to attach to the chassis this will be the weak point or limiting factor in its KG rating even in a static load scenerio and if not hooked up just right i have seen them slip through the collar.
I would love to see the 2 units blended into 1 ;D ;D ;D
Jet ;D
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Sounds like a challenge!
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I have had the ARK extreme Jockey wheel since just after they were released. Tow the trailer thru dirt and lawn with a winch to get it to its parking spot in the back yard. Have always lowered the draw bar before dragging it around on the jockey wheel, seemed to be the sensible thing to do to me. Have had no problems with it so far. baz
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Hey Jet - glad you had an outcome of sorts - just read through your posts carefully..
In the next week or so - I will be starting a thread on the AUSTRALIAN engineered; and made; and patented:
BOS370 Jockey Wheel System...
www.bos370.com.au/
I am getting John over at LCT to install the double pneumatic unit; with extra base plate and other bits etc; later next week.
Some readers here will recall me discussing these units before Christmas...
I have been waiting since approx DEC 2015 for them to develop the correct size leg; (for AT Hybrids etc)... And now these units are ready...
I spoke with Bronwyn from BOS a couple of times about this - earlier this week... She was so friendly and competent to talk with AND YES - she was taking inquiries from the BOS work phone number - that was being diverted to her; whilst she was standing at the BOS trade booth at the Rose Hill show .... What a champ! :cup: :cup: :cup:
Been a few threads already http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=46159.msg782419#msg782419 (http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=46159.msg782419#msg782419)
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The bos370 is great. There's is a few things that probably get to you after a bit of use but it's still the best jockey wheel /stand I have used to date.
Note though if you don't use a battery drill the winding will eventually get on your tit as it's geared. There is different extention pieces for the wheel option v the stand and although you can use the wheel extention with the stand you can't the other way around.
The plating in the base plate is average and there's no drain holes even though it's bent up so if it's constantly outside you will get corrosion I'd be sure.
The manufacturers are good peeople and if your in Sydney you can pop around and try it out to get it right. Bronwyn is great as mentioned and her husband who is the designer and manufacturer is a nice guy to. They do make a heap of it there at St Marys and in AU so it's worth supporting. In over 12mths of use I certainly wouldn't use another jockey wheel.
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Well they won't sell many if they don't return messages or answer emails ..I'm still waiting
Jet
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Well they won't sell many if they don't return messages or answer emails ..I'm still waiting
Jet
Geez ... wot hav ya done to 'em mate? ;D ;D
(Happily, this is what Bronwyn's doing for BaseCamp - I've seemed to have had better luck, ..so far)..
Basically last week whilst she was in the midst of sales at the Rose Hill show - she promised to get onto LCT "first thing next week" - and coordinate everything needed (with/through) LCT; to get me a good result with the correct supply and installation of a BOS370 onto my LCT AT-11...
Next minute (first thing on TUE) - this cced email drops into my in box... Nice one Bronny! ;D :cup:
Well okay - she was "a day late" - but still a champion effort imho.. (Whenever I used to come home / back to work - from a trade show sellathon - I was wasted for over a week.. There was no tail wagging for me; that's for sure!.. LOL ;D 8) ;D
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From: Bronwyn Van Den Bos [mailto:Bronwyn@bos370.com.au]
Sent: Tuesday, 19 April 2016 9:18 AM
To: natalie@lifestylecampertrailers.com.au
Cc: XXX@XXXX.com.au
Subject: Supply & Installation BOS370
Morning Natalie,
I am hoping you can assist me, Mr XXXX XXXX has asked me to email you asking for the measurements so I can send to him the correct jockey unit and parts.
I need to know what the height is from the clamp to the ground please.
Mr XXX has asked to send the items ASAP to you at Slacks Creek.
Look forward in receiving an email back from you.
Kindest regards
Bronwyn Harris
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Thats good service for you basecamp and certainly not to take that away from them but maybe a thread of its own should be started to give them some exposure and for others to find it rather than it being buried within this thread.. not an issue for me just thinking it might help them out and give you chance to report on the process and performance so we have a good jockey wheel resource guide on the form by name of units.
Jet :D :D :D
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Very true mate; and a great idea....
I will be starting up a BOS370 thread once I have mine up and running. ..
This new thread will cover the pros AND any cons per my experience with the system - so that buyers may be well informed. ... no sugarcoating :)
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