MySwag.org The Off-road Camper Trailer Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: chookduck on January 19, 2014, 05:25:20 PM
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I write this long piece as an awareness thread for those MySwaggers who are unaware of the pitfalls of overloading, particularly through inadvertent overloading through a long and detailed accessory addition to their vehicle and Camper Trailer, and exceeding their Gross Vehicle Mass. The catalyst for this thread came from another thread http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=21129.msg552246#msg552246 (http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=21129.msg552246#msg552246) which resulted in some colourful discussion. i also have no affiliation with any new or after market companies - just an worker for Defence.
I realise there are many threads that contain snippets to GVM, but none easily found that explains this area. I welcome constructive comment and feedback to provide awareness to fellow MySwaggers.
Bad case scenario – your tow vehicle unknowingly to you is over its legal GVM, towing a Camper Trailer and involved in an at fault accident with personal injuries. If the accident is properly investigated by the appropriate authorities and your vehicle or Camper Trailer is deemed to be over its legal GVM, you will most likely not be covered by your Car and/or Camper insurance for both you and your property and well as any others involved in your ‘at fault’ accident. A very emotional and super expensive exercise.
The usable payload of many new 4WD vehicles today has gradually decreased over time compared with their predecessors. 20 years ago the 80 Series Landcruiser GXL Turbo Diesel had a usable payload of 730 kg. Today looking at the Toyota website for the Landcruiser 200 Series Turbo Diesel we see a usable payload of 620 kg. Furthermore the Kerb Weight of the 200 Series has increased by some 500 kg compared to the 80 Series. Similarly, Gross Vehicle Mass has increased from 2960 kg for the 80 series to 3350 kg for the 200 series. However, along with this weight increase comes a range of improved comfort, safety, traction aids and arguably reliability. Other mainstream 4WDs have likewise increased in overall weight with a decrease in usable payload. Additional basic camping gear and some common optional extras, a full fuel load and four adult occupants will bring the vehicle close to, or in some cases exceed, its legal maximum Gross Vehicle Mass. Now add common vehicle accessories and options such as bull bars and winches, dual batteries, side steps, roof racks, stronger under body protection, mud terrain tyres, cargo barriers, recovery gear, long range fuel tanks, radios, water, extra lights, drawer systems, portable refrigerators, towball weights from Camper Trailers and caravans, and camping equipment and the vehicle will very quickly exceed its allowable Gross Vehicle Mass. So, what does this all mean?
Most vehicle manufactures detail their Kerb or Tare Weight and GVM in their respective brochures and websites. While the Tare or Kerb weights are usually defined as the ‘unladen’ weight of the vehicle or trailer, some manufacturers include fuel while others do not. E.g., on Ford’s website the Ford Ranger kerb weight includes a full tank of fuel whereas Kerb weights for Toyota’s vehicles do not include any fuel. You need to be aware of what comprises your kerb weight. Of more importance however is Gross Vehicle Mass or GVM.
GVM is the maximum a vehicle can weigh when fully loaded including fuel, weight on the towball from a Camper Trailer or caravan etc, other added accessories/modifications, your passengers and all cargo. All vehicles have a legal GVM as part of the vehicle manufacturer's overall Australian Design Rules (ADR) approval. If your vehicle exceeds these limits you could be fined, void your insurance conditions and make your vehicle unsafe.
So where do you find your vehicle's GVM? The GVM of your vehicle should be stamped on a Compliance Plate located in the engine bay.
Exceeding your GVM will deem your vehicle and/or Camper Trailer as being not roadworthy. The NSW Government Roads and Maritime Services (RMS) states that the responsibility for ensuring that a vehicle is roadworthy rests with its owner. It is the owner’s responsibility to ensure that the vehicle in its modified form continues to comply with the Road Transport (Vehicle Registration) Regulation 2007 and Australian Design Rules; and that the modifications do not reduce the strength, controllability or level of safety of the vehicle. See http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/registration/downloads/vib29.pdf (http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/registration/downloads/vib29.pdf) and http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/registration/downloads/vsi/vsi_06_-_guidelines_for_light_vehicle_modifications_nov_2007.pdf (http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/registration/downloads/vsi/vsi_06_-_guidelines_for_light_vehicle_modifications_nov_2007.pdf) for more information.
RMS further advises that owners should also check with their insurance companies before making any alterations to their vehicle as some modifications can affect the insurance cover. In one mainstream insurance company’s Caravan/Camper Trailer PDS, in the section “Are you Covered?” you find the following statements answered as NO:
If the car towing or attached to your caravan was carrying more passengers or loaded above the legal limit or loaded in an illegal way.
If your caravan [camper trailer] was loaded above the legal limit or loaded in an illegal way.
The above not only applies to the vehicle’s GVM, but also other areas like roof rack limits. Just because a roof rack is designed to carry 100 kg, this does not necessarily mean the roof of your vehicle is rated for 100 kg. Check with your vehicle manufacturer or in your vehicle handbook. Remember, the total roof weight limit includes the roof rack and its cargo. Full length steel roof racks can weigh up to 50 kg+ empty.
So roughly how much can you add to your vehicle? Usable payload is normally calculated by subtracting the kerb weight from the GVM. E.g., let’s assume a kerb weight (not including fuel) of a large 4WD wagon of 2750kg and a GVM of 3350 kg. We calculate the usable payload as 3350 kg – 2750 kg = 600 kg. Now all your cargo, fuel, passengers and added accessories and modifications combined weight needs to come in under 600 kgs, otherwise you will exceed your GVM and be considered not roadworthy. In this case, four 70 kg adults and 130 litres of fuel (104 kg) already accounts for 384 kg leaving you only 216 kg for accessories and modifications.
If you have doubts as to whether you have exceeded your GVM, you should probably weigh your vehicle at a registered weighbridge in the configuration that you would be using. What do you do if you are over the GVM or are considering modifications that will take you over the GVM? There are several companies that are properly certified to undertake GVM upgrades. Just Google ‘gvm upgrade’ to see some options.
A number of MySwaggers have undertaken this approach and I would invite them to share their experiences about how to be properly certified for a GVM increase.
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Great article, good read, timely reminder on an important topic.
In my case, I replaced 2 of the 4 adults with a long range fuel tank. (Kids have grown up, drive their own 4wd/car with their own camping gear. (Other benefit here is I haven't had to listen to 'are we there yet?' For a few years.
I also didn't take the second water tank option on the CT as this would sit in front of the CT axle and add more weight onto the towball.
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People know my thoughts on this!
Far too many persons have either no idea of, or no regard for vehicle GVM and towing capacities and worry me on the road when they pass going the other way.
http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=26576.msg411579#msg411579 (http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=26576.msg411579#msg411579)
First pic from my previous thread, second from a recent accident on the monash. Both tugs were rodeos. Either may or may not be just legal, but when you are close to or over GVM margin for error is minimal.
Good topic which deserves it's own thread.
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It's pretty simple really.
People just take to much sh!t.
Do you really need all those tools? I know blokes that pack their entire tool chest.
Do you really need all those spares? Do you really need 2 spare wheels, axle, CV and shocks?
I have seen too many set ups where they pack everything, including the TV.
Have a look what the Leyland brothers, Alby Mangles packed, sweet fk all.
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The simple solution is.......don't crash......
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The simple solution is.......don't crash......
Mightnt be that simple, there are reports of Road Traffic Authority (NSW) randomly pulling over vehicles that are towing and running them over the scales.
A good report and I think there are a number of vehicles and trailers out there that are over GVM unknown to the drivers.
Trevor
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It's pretty simple really.
People just take to much sh!t.
Do you really need all those tools? I know blokes that pack their entire tool chest.
Do you really need all those spares? Do you really need 2 spare wheels, axle, CV and shocks?
I have seen too many set ups where they pack everything, including the TV.
Have a look what the Leyland brothers, Alby Mangles packed, sweet fk all.
(http://www.hairfysh.com/images/Icons/Smileys/thumbs%20up.gif)
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It's pretty simple really.
People just take to much sh!t.
Do you really need all those tools? I know blokes that pack their entire tool chest.
Do you really need all those spares? Do you really need 2 spare wheels, axle, CV and shocks?
I have seen too many set ups where they pack everything, including the TV.
Have a look what the Leyland brothers, Alby Mangles packed, sweet fk all.
FFS...............
That's fine for tootling along the bitumen up and down the east coast where there is road side service.
Get off the beaten track (and I mean remote) you are nucking futs if you take less than 2 spares................let alone additional water etc,
How many shocks have been chewed up on the Canning????? Be my guest when you do the Canning and don't take a spare shock. Oh, you left ya tools at home with the shock to replace it............ ::)
Grow up people, yes pack wisely, take what you need, but head bush WITHOUT the bare minimum (especially inexperienced people) and there WILL be more deaths.
Safety first. If you want to risk your families lives by heeding some of the stupidity mentioned above, it's fine by me, just dont whinge and moan the next time the news spits out that another family/person has perished in the desert....................
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You can't compare the towing dynamics of a 5th wheeler to a normal caravan, the one pictured in mace's first photo is claimed to weigh 3300kgs, also has 700kg on the gooseneck, so the rodeo is really only towing 2600kg and carrying 700kgs on it's back (dry weight of course) and also has the massive advantage of having weight between the wheels at the back and on the gooseneck, less rear overhang than a normal caravan making it far more superior in handling and cornering.
The second, much more dramatic photo is standard very large caravan, completely different animal to tow, no background on how it came a gutsa, could've been another party at fault, or 100% driver error.
That block of flats will most certainly catch the wind, but would much rather see this set up on the road than a normal caravan'
On the GVM/GCM note, I run at my maximun GVM but am aware of it, my poverty pack 105 series cruiser had approx 830 kg payload, lack of "impress the neighbors" bits gave it a weight advantage over flashier model variants, at the moment on a good day its just a tad under 2900kg, gvm is 3250kg, by the time the family clothes go in and the camper on the back, its overweight with full tanks of fuel, but under when they have come down, the camper is also borderline within weight limits, always walking the fine line when we leave home, how the hell can ANY 200 series owners comply with the GVM placed on there vehicle is beyond me especially with family's.
A good point has been raised here, but EVERYBODY should know what there outfit weighs, but will it change much?
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Have a look what the Leyland brothers, Alby Mangles packed, sweet fk all.
Yep Alby Mangles took bugger all spares and hardly any tools but he always packed a very cute bikini clad hottie for companionship ;D
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Yep Alby Mangles took bugger all spares and hardly any tools but he always packed a very cute bikini clad hottie for companionship ;D
Great way to take your mind off your flogged out shocks and busted CV. ;D
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I am yet to hear of anyone who has been pulled over by the scalies and done for being over gcm. Yep, plenty of stories of ...'mates of a a mates, uncles cousins, gay lovers, sister apparently got done and was sentenced to the electric chair' type of stories.
Most people are over by not much. If there is a bad accident and they decide to weight your combination, then you and your mrs is not going to sitting in the truck. That's about 150kgs in our situation.
Really, FFS there is more to worry about than that.
If the insurance company was really that inclined to 'not pay' then I'm sure they could find something not roadworthy with almost any car on the road.
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I'm within all weights on my setup but I'm sure there are plenty out there that aren't.
I have to say though that I carry a basic tool kit and some essential spares but I have never carried 2 spares for the vehicle or spare shocks. I can repair most punctures and I can bounce my way out of trouble if I break a shock ;)
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A good point has been raised here, but EVERYBODY should know what their outfit weighs, but will it change much?
Spot on mate,
As mentioned, Touring up & down major highways compared to remote travel is completely different, people have gotta get a grip and be prepared for where they are traveling.
When ever towing weight issues come up,
It reminds me of a post in another forum where a chap couldn't understand why his fuel economy in his 200 series was shocking while towing.
Took his vehicle to the Toyota dealership because it was still under warranty, they tested & tested, all was good.
Yet when his towed, his economy was shot to sh1t. ???
He mentioned this to a caravan park owner, who suggested to go through the Van, caue there is a lot of cupboard and storage space hidden from view.
What they found was his wife had been collecting SPOONS at every stop on their travels.
Instead of posting the spoon back home or to relatives, she had been hoarding them in every nook & cranky in the van.
Weight is what is necessary,
Ya don't use it, lose it. ;D
Homer_Jay,
That's a pretty silly way of looking at it.
You go ya hardest and load your camper, vehicle beyond it capacity .
Cause IT WILL bite ya one day.
;D
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Mate, mine is legal. I have had it over a weigh bridge.
I know my weights and load accordingly.
But these discussions come up on all the forums and no one has even had a fist hand experience of it ever coming back to 'bite them'.
Some people like to make out the end of the world is nigh, if you 10kgs over your legal limit.
How many of these medium duty dual cabs are over the limit out there? They have a towing capacity of 3-3.5t BUT the gvm of the car is reduced if full towing capacity is used. No one seems to recognise this fact! But I don't see too many being pulled over and put on the scales?
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FFS...............
That's fine for tootling along the bitumen up and down the east coast where there is road side service.
Get off the beaten track (and I mean remote) you are nucking futs if you take less than 2 spares................let alone additional water etc,
How many shocks have been chewed up on the Canning????? Be my guest when you do the Canning and don't take a spare shock. Oh, you left ya tools at home with the shock to replace it............ ::)
Grow up people, yes pack wisely, take what you need, but head bush WITHOUT the bare minimum (especially inexperienced people) and there WILL be more deaths.
Safety first. If you want to risk your families lives by heeding some of the stupidity mentioned above, it's fine by me, just dont whinge and moan the next time the news spits out that another family/person has perished in the desert....................
The shocks break because there is an entire tool chest in the back sitting on top of shocks, axles and spare wheels.
All our NORFORCE Patrols get around in stock standard troop carriers. Gov issued.
No bling, just an ARB bar and roof rack.
You drive to the terrain, take your time, keep it simple and you will get through.
I have traveled extensively up through the top end, places where the "white fella" can't go, trust me when I say this, you don't need all that crap they say you need.
Christ, if the locals can get around Maningrida in an old XF falcon, then most of us will manage in a set up 4wd.
Keep it light, keep it simple, use common sense, and you make it home in one piece.
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I haven't weighed my camper or Prado, but I would like to. I am sure I have no issues, because I unpack 1/2 of what the wife packs before we leave.
This thread is a good one to raise awareness on the issue of weight, of which, if I loose 20kgs, then I could ack another carton? :cheers:
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Indeed, XF Fords Holden Kingswoods and their predecessors were what 'everyone' drove to do the Birdsvile Track, etc. until removal of tariffs on imported vehicles, deregulation of the Ausie dollar andsalary sacrificing of 'work' vehicles, for those who are eligible, made Jap 4x4s affordable for the masses
And back in the 'olden days' (late '70s / early '80s) there was far less bitumen out there, so people HAD to drive to the conditions. But families. Still got through safely.
As to what you "need" to save your life, there are precious few who have died over the years from breakdown, as distinct from stupidity. For example, the well known case of the pommie family migrating between towns who perished on the Birdsville Track in the 1950s... Not a breakdown, he was a fuel miser who reckoned he could get through without re-filling, having taken a wrong turn they then ran out of fuel, and topped it off by leaving the vehicle. Even back then, with far fewer vehicles on the road than today, the car was soon found, but the family wasn't with it.
On even the remotest track, if you tell the police in the town where you start where you are headed and 'ETA' and report in when you get there then all should be fine. If you are a 'no show' then a search would be commenced, especially if you are doing similar with a family member who doesn't hear from you in time.
Likewise, for REAL emergencies an EPIRB / 'Spot' or sat phone is what you need. They can be life savers, and don't weigh much. Most everything else is just an inconvenience, and will maybe cost you a few days and $ to get the vehicle retrieved.
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a good example of overloading........the Falcon towing this has no chance of making a sudden stop safely........not to mention how that trailer is coping with that weight on it >:(
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a good example of overloading........the Falcon towing this has no chance of making a sudden stop safely........not to mention how that trailer is coping with that weight on it >:(
It's sitting level... What else is there to worry about?
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It's sitting level... What else is there to worry about?
so no brakes on the trailer doesnt worry you?
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so no brakes on the trailer doesnt worry you?
The whole trailer is a bit of a worry...
A Falcon can tow 2300kg, a VT wagon would weigh around 1700kg, a proper car tandem is probably 500 - 700kg, so it would be borderline legal even with a good braked trailer.
Also a closer look in the pic also shows the Falcon is only fitted with a light duty 1600kg towbar.
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The whole trailer is a bit of a worry...
A Falcon can tow 2300kg, a VT wagon would weigh around 1700kg, a proper car tandem is probably 500 - 700kg, so it would be borderline legal even with a good braked trailer.
Also a closer look in the pic also shows the Falcon is only fitted with a light duty 1600kg towbar.
yep, add into that the maximum load limit on that single axle trailer, even look at the draw bar on the trailer.........yeah plenty to worry about coming at you at 100 klm/h :o
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Not that I'm advocating overloading, but do we have any documented cases where insurance has been denied due to a vehicle (towing or otherwise) being over GVM? Can't say I've ever heard about it. Many (most?) 100 series landcruisers that are setup for touring/offroad would be over GVM when loaded up. I've never heard of an issue - but would like to know about it.
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And back in the 'olden days' (late '70s / early '80s) there was far less bitumen out there, so people HAD to drive to the conditions. But families. Still got through safely.
Isn't nostalgia a wonderful thing, everything was so great back then. Politicians were honest, young people respected their elders, etc etc.
Back in the 70's and 80's there were plenty of vehicle rollovers and crashes on remote roads. With the absence of sat phones and the fewer amount of people travelling in such areas help was difficult to obtain quickly. Yes people did get through, but there were plenty of fatalities as well.
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so no brakes on the trailer doesnt worry you?
Of course the whole setup worries me. The driver should be immediately sterilised!
No brakes on the trailer, single axle, over hang, small tow vehicle etc etc...
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Isn't nostalgia a wonderful thing, everything was so great back then. Politicians were honest, young people respected their elders, etc etc.
Back in the 70's and 80's there were plenty of vehicle rollovers and crashes on remote roads. With the absence of sat phones and the fewer amount of people travelling in such areas help was difficult to obtain quickly. Yes people did get through, but there were plenty of fatalities as well.
I don't disagree Symon, but all the tools under the sun wouldn't help in those circumstances.
Most rollovers and crashes can be avoided by driving to conditions, similarly with mechanical failure.
Travelling at a leisurely ace and in daylight was a well proven strategy back then.
However, can't agree with you about the pollies back then, and Imwas one of those young people, so I KNOW you were wrong on that point! ;D
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All our NORFORCE Patrols get around in stock standard troop carriers. Gov issued.
Yes, and you also have someone you can call in to pull you out of the sh1t anytime, and doesn't cost you anything. You aren't comparing apples with apples.
There is nothing wrong with having a decent tool kit, by the time you throw in a socket set, spanners, and basic hand tools you are easily up around 20-30kg. A few basic spare parts (fan belts, etc) will add another 20kg or so, and even more if you take a bit of oil as well.
I agree many people carry too much stuff, but skimping on basic tools and spares doesn't make a lot of sense if you are heading into remote areas. Do you really want to call in for towtruck because you broke a fan belt and didn't carry a spare or the tools to change it?
Most rollovers and crashes can be avoided by driving to conditions, similarly with mechanical failure.
Yes, most but not all. The thing is to be prepared, but don't go stupid about it. Sensible driving does help, but it is no replacement for a bit of preparation.
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Yes, and you also have someone you can call in to pull you out of the sh1t anytime, and doesn't cost you anything. You aren't comparing apples with apples.
There is nothing wrong with having a decent tool kit, by the time you throw in a socket set, spanners, and basic hand tools you are easily up around 20-30kg. A few basic spare parts (fan belts, etc) will add another 20kg or so, and even more if you take a bit of oil as well.
I agree many people carry too much stuff, but skimping on basic tools and spares doesn't make a lot of sense if you are heading into remote areas. Do you really want to call in for towtruck because you broke a fan belt and didn't carry a spare or the tools to change it?
Not quite.
No external support. All on our own.
My original post, I am not saying, not take tools, or spares.
I am saying, take spares, pack a tool box to get you home. You don't need a complete tool box to rebuild your motor on the side of the road.
Be realistic, do you really need that complete imperial set of tools? When your truck is metric.
Do you really need a complete set of spanners and sockets? Pack only the ones that fit your truck.
This what I am saying, not head out with no tools or spares.
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I always carry my socket & spanner set, screwdrivers and a toolbox of mechicaling stuff. Likewise oil. If the coolant was to need replacing I have water.
It is always a matter of balance. I varied a complete set of belts and hoses for the Subaru. Probably would've made more sense to fit them before the trip.
I can rebuild a VW Beetle on the side of the road, and have the tools and skills to do it. However, not sure i could do much on a modern vehicle, but hopefully having the tools will be useful if a fellow travel is handy in that respect.
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HK Kingswood. 1/2 & 9/16 ring open enders and 2 screwdrivers kept in the glovebox.
That pretty much covered you for 95% of things.
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HK Kingswood. 1/2 & 9/16 ring open enders and 2 screwdrivers kept in the glovebox.
That pretty much covered you for 95% of things.
Lol yep. They were also a lot more solid underneath than the modern car. Had a friend with a VL commodore get lost and end up on a dirt track back of mudgee. He got out of there but the stone damage to the underside wrote the car off, this was back when it was a current model.
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Just about most fourbies loaded up and towing would be exceeding their GVM. The Cruisers GVM standard is pathetic for the car, but even the Pajero (which has one of the bests) is still easily exceeded, two adults, two teenagers, engle, luggage, canoe, ball weight.
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No external support. All on our own.
So you are saying if you snapped an axle you couldn't get one air dropped to you?
Be realistic, do you really need that complete imperial set of tools? When your truck is metric.
Don't always assume that your truck is all metric. My landcruiser should be all metric, but I have found imperial sizes on it more than once. The wheel nuts for example are 7/8" - go figure. I got caught on one of the Cape trips once where I carried only metric sizes and I needed to work on the camper, only to find the camper is all imperial.
Do you really need a complete set of spanners and sockets? Pack only the ones that fit your truck.
Unless you have already pulled apart every bit of your truck how do you know what all the sizes are? It would be nice to know that everything was 10, 12, 14 and 17mm but modern vehicles use a lot more than that.
I agree that you need to be sensible about what you carry, but I would carry a bit more than what you are suggesting. For example I carry a drill and an angle grinder when I go away, and yes I have have needed to use them more than once.
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Both my last 2 insurance claims are whilst towing once hit a roo another blown tyre on the Prado and on either claims was I questioned about how loaded the vehicles are...
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Unless you have already pulled apart every bit of your truck how do you know what all the sizes are? It would be nice to know that everything was 10, 12, 14 and 17mm but modern vehicles use a lot more than that.
A bit off topic but wouldn't it be great if you could get a list of the sizes you need for your vehicle. Perhaps a job for the specialist forums.
By the way does anyone know what a GU CRD Patrol needs ???
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Both my last 2 insurance claims are whilst towing once hit a roo another blown tyre on the Prado and on either claims was I questioned about how loaded the vehicles are...
Hey mate in what way did they ask? Curious, as above I have never heard of anyone getting pinged.
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Solely from a policing perspective the investigators are interesting in the causational factors of the accident. You would have to be WAAAY over the GVM for it to come up as an issue.
It would almost be a case of;
"You were towing THAT with THAT.......... You have got to be kidding me."
I cant recall our investigators having a vehicle weighed except for a semi in a fatal.
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A shifter and a hammer ;D
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Hi All,
There is some excellent information contained in this somewhat controversial thread, however I believe there is another aspect that will significantly increase the focus on this - economics. All insurance companies are first and foremost a business, their primary focus is to be profitable.
The inclusion of references to compliance in the terms and conditions of an insurance policy are their to provide a degree of protection for the insurer and to make the policy holder aware of conditions relating to the policy. The payment of insurance claims has always been at the discretion of insurance companies (sometimes court sanctioned following litigation).
With regard to the investigation of fatal or serious injury motor vehicle collisions (first hand experience) great scope exists for number and type of examinations that may be carried out on the vehicle/s etc. The Coroner has the most wide reaching scope and powers and may order certain tests or additional tests be done. Included in their findings the Coroner may identify the cause/s, contributing factor/s and/or the party or parties responsible. They may make recommendations (procedural, legal or otherwise) to any stakeholders. Having a vehicle or vehicle combination weighed is not cost or time prohibitive in the context of this type of investigation. It should also be noted that an insurance company may conduct their own investigation and tests (if applicable, subject to the release of vehicles, exhibits etc by authorities).
I would like to see vehicle manufacturers clearly display important information like load carrying capacity on a vehicle rather than economy figures. This should be in simple terms to assist the consumer in making an informed decision when selecting a vehicle for an application. How many people buy a 4wd with the misconception that they can fit a catalog full of accessories (aftermarket or factory), carry the number of people that there are seats for and their luggage and be anything other than legal?
I believe the focus of compliance in this area is and will only increase.
regards
Drenno
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Not quite.
No external support. All on our own.
My original post, I am not saying, not take tools, or spares.
I am saying, take spares, pack a tool box to get you home. You don't need a complete tool box to rebuild your motor on the side of the road.
Be realistic, do you really need that complete imperial set of tools? When your truck is metric.
Do you really need a complete set of spanners and sockets? Pack only the ones that fit your truck.
This what I am saying, not head out with no tools or spares.
I require all people on our 4wd club trips to carry 2 forms of lifting a vehicle..........
Case....(and it has happened on a trip I was on, names and places are changed to protect the guilty, and no it wasn't me ;D)
You're on a remote trip, say the Anne Beadell, travelling in a convoy of 3 vehicles. You have stretched out to keep dust down. You're tail end charlie.
You call the others that you are stopping for a pit stop and you will catch up to the others. You are now out of UHF range by the time you get back to your vehicle. A photo opportunity arises. This puts you further back. Now, this scenario has been played out many times not only on this trip, but others as well.
Damn, you get a puncture and not realising that it was flat, it's now shredded. You stop and change the tyre. Now you've got the wheel off and due to the terrain, it slips of the jack. You now are stuck, no uhf comms, the truck is on the deck and you now have to wait for your travel buddies to realise some thing is wrong and you haven't caught up and turn around (could be hours) or say you're travelling with your family and the scenario above happens but the rig has fallen trapping you under it. Do you have a second jack that the missus could lift the vehicle off you?
If you are travelling solo (which I mostly do) or with a small group, you need to carry everything.............and then some..........
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I require all people on our 4wd club trips to carry 2 forms of lifting a vehicle..........
Case....(and it has happened on a trip I was on, names and places are changed to protect the guilty, and no it wasn't me ;D)
You're on a remote trip, say the Anne Beadell, travelling in a convoy of 3 vehicles. You have stretched out to keep dust down. You're tail end charlie.
You call the others that you are stopping for a pit stop and you will catch up to the others. You are now out of UHF range by the time you get back to your vehicle. A photo opportunity arises. This puts you further back. Now, this scenario has been played out many times not only on this trip, but others as well.
Damn, you get a puncture and not realising that it was flat, it's now shredded. You stop and change the tyre. Now you've got the wheel off and due to the terrain, it slips of the jack. You now are stuck, no uhf comms, the truck is on the deck and you now have to wait for your travel buddies to realise some thing is wrong and you haven't caught up and turn around (could be hours) or say you're travelling with your family and the scenario above happens but the rig has fallen trapping you under it. Do you have a second jack that the missus could lift the vehicle off you?
If you are travelling solo (which I mostly do) or with a small group, you need to carry everything.............and then some..........
Im still not so sure Id carry two jacks even in this scenario. I have found it is difficult to plan for everything and old Murphy will always throw an obstacle at you that you don't have the spares for but it is rewarding when something goes wrong and you do have the tools/spares/ability to sort it out.
For me it is a matter of weighing up (pardon the pun) the risks and scenarios. Any remote travel I do is going to have a certain amount of risk to it especially in an ageing 4WD but as long as I am covered so no one dies out there then anything else that comes up that leaves me stranded is only going to cost me money and time...and plenty of it!
Only my opinion of course mate not saying your wrong by any means....knowing my luck ill get caught in a situation where I needed a second jack now LOL
Just on a side note, your Patrol looks to have a lot of weight hanging off the back of the chassis??
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not trying to be smart
I require all people on our 4wd club trips to carry 2 forms of lifting a vehicle..........
Case....(and it has happened on a trip I was on, names and places are changed to protect the guilty, and no it wasn't me ;D)
You're on a remote trip, say the Anne Beadell, travelling in a convoy of 3 vehicles. You have stretched out to keep dust down. You're tail end charlie.
You call the others that you are stopping for a pit stop and you will catch up to the others. You are now out of UHF range by the time you get back to your vehicle. A photo opportunity arises. This puts you further back. Now, this scenario has been played out many times not only on this trip, but others as well.
Damn, you get a puncture and not realising that it was flat, it's now shredded. You stop and change the tyre. Now you've got the wheel off and due to the terrain, it slips of the jack. You now are stuck, no uhf comms, the truck is on the deck and you now have to wait for your travel buddies to realise some thing is wrong and you haven't caught up and turn around (could be hours) set the jack up right and al should be apples......plus you have your food, water and sleeping stuff so no real need to stress or say you're travelling with your family and the scenario above happens but the rig has fallen trapping you under it.er.....what are you doing under the car with just a jack Do you have a second jack that the missus could lift the vehicle off you?
If you are travelling solo (which I mostly do) or with a small group, you need to carry everything.............and then some..........
I am guilty of filling any spare space.......I have a weigh bridge at work and have checked tug and CT twice from memory.........camper trailer surprised me at 1300kg, apparently you need brakes once over 750kg
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umm, i'm sure my camper is heavier, maybe it didn't have five mountain bikes ~100kg, 1 x adult and 1 x kid missing ~100kg form the car weight, I now have a RV4 on the roof rack
3700 Defender and camper trailer 1A 2K
2740 Defender by itself 1A 2K
2800 Defender with trailer connected but off bridge 1A 2K
1000 Camper trailer by itself
1240 Front axle weight defender 1A 2K
1480 Rear axle weight defender 1A 2K
940 Camper trailer axle weight when connect to defender
GMV is 3050kg
Towing is either 3000kg or 3500kg
Just don't know max. axle weights
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umm, i'm sure my camper is heavier, maybe it didn't have five mountain bikes ~100kg, 1 x adult and 1 x kid missing ~100kg form the car weight, I now have a RV4 on the roof rack
3700 Defender and camper trailer 1A 2K
2740 Defender by itself 1A 2K
2800 Defender with trailer connected but off bridge 1A 2K
1000 Camper trailer by itself
1240 Front axle weight defender 1A 2K
1480 Rear axle weight defender 1A 2K
940 Camper trailer axle weight when connect to defender
GMV is 3050kg
Towing is either 3000kg or 3500kg
Just don't know max. axle weights
a quick google search tells me I might be over on the front axle weight
front 1200kg....umm bonnet mounted spare and the PTO winch
rear 1750kg
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It is quite simple stop making caravans so big
I laugh that this months caravan world mag has an article reccomending not to go over 80% of the vehicles towing capasisity, and then in the next article a new xxxx 23 foot van with and ATM of 3300kg is the bees knees
Ohh and i will ask the question on shock absorbers what is everyones obsession with them. Unless it is a strut mount you can still drive without a shock absorber. Yeah it will handle like a pig but still get you home
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Hey mate in what way did they ask? Curious, as above I have never heard of anyone getting pinged.
sorry worded wrong both claims i was not questioned about loads even though i mentioned the fact i was towing at the time.
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Over weight, not me.
Lst years Gulf Trip. Fully loaded camper, cruiser had 2 fridges full, 2 x big bags for clothes, 3 bottles of scotch and 15 cases of beer all in the back. Then J.K got in. ;D
Yes we were way overloaded, with the clothes bags. :cheers:
Mark
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I have seen countless lists of things to take with you in remote areas but none have contained the most important thing to take and leave behind. On top of your must take list should be plenty of time. The thing left behind should be a tight holiday schedule that you must stick to. Roads like the Canning and Anne Beadell don't break cars. It is the drivers who break them by over loading and going too fast for the conditions.
A question was asked on Exploroz a couple of years ago about traveling on the Anne Beadell. One reply said their group did it easily in 5 days and then listed the parts that were broken. Another said their group took 12 days and did not break anything.
While working with the RAAF near Perth in the early 1970s, a friend returned one Monday morning after driving back from Adelaide over the then unsealed Nullarbor. He said an idiot in a Monaro went flying past him near Nullarbor Homestead and hit a small washout. The car blew all four tyres and buckled all four wheels instantly. No doubt that driver told his mates about the tough car breaking conditions out there.
doc evil
Maybe your 4wd club should revise their convoy procedures. When someone in my club gets on the radio and says they are stopping, everyone stops.
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On top of your must take list should be plenty of time. The thing left behind should be a tight holiday schedule that you must stick to. Roads like the Canning and Anne Beadell don't break cars. It is the drivers who break them by over loading and going too fast for the conditions.
I agree with this. Any time I am broken things is due to my own fault because of time constraints vs loads vs road conditions.
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I understand weights when you talk about the car or trailer as separate things, but I’m a bit confused by the Kerb or Tare Weight and GVM when you combine car & trailer. For example when we go away for the week camping I know my 105 Cruiser is on it’s limits (before tailer is attached) and the trailer would weight about 700kgs fully loaded (it’s braked and registered for just over 1000kgs)
So by themselves they are legal, but are you saying once I hook the trailer up, I’m now too heavy?
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You're only too heavy if the towball weight, which must be added to the vehicle laden mass, takes you over the vehicle GVM.
The trailer weight must be added to the laden vehicle weight to come up with a GVCM Gross Vehicle combination mass. Your cruiser will have an all up GVCM capacity far in excess of your current vehicle pus camper trailer mass, ie a cruiser GVM is say 3300 kg, plus a 3000 kg van, the GVCM weight for that combo is 6300kg, yours might weigh 3300 kg plus 1200 kg. Total allowable Maximum GVCM for a cruiser and caravan would be in the order of 6500kg.
clear as mud?
http://www.racq.com.au/motoring/driving/towing/trailer__and__tow_vehicle_specifications_explained (http://www.racq.com.au/motoring/driving/towing/trailer__and__tow_vehicle_specifications_explained)
:cheers:
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What I think most find frustrating is that it is becoming increasingly difficult to find a vehicle to purchase to do what we all consider reasonable in a legal manner.
While there are an ever increasing number of us heading out there with our homes in tow, we are, apparently, still regarded as such an insignificant proportion of the market that the vehicles we need are not built and marketed, at least by the 'usual suspects'.
A classic case of 'market failure'. And an opportunity for some of the newcomers - Mahindra, for example?
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Maybe your 4wd club should revise their convoy procedures. When someone in my club gets on the radio and says they are stopping, everyone stops.
You don't really want to be around whilst I'm having a dump......... :angel: :o >:D
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I am yet to hear of anyone who has been pulled over by the scalies and done for being over gcm. Yep, plenty of stories of ...'mates of a a mates, uncles cousins, gay lovers, sister apparently got done and was sentenced to the electric chair' type of stories.
Most people are over by not much. If there is a bad accident and they decide to weight your combination, then you and your mrs is not going to sitting in the truck. That's about 150kgs in our situation.
Really, FFS there is more to worry about than that.
If the insurance company was really that inclined to 'not pay' then I'm sure they could find something not roadworthy with almost any car on the road.
Thankfully it wasn't an insurance company or the scalies.
A mate and I were out on a tour of outback NSW, and his truck started to overheat and do all the usual stuff that misbehaving vehicles do.
As it had roadside assist he call that and they arranged for a flatbead to come and retreive him and take it to a regional repair centre.
At the regional repair centre they promptly weighed the truck and then made a fuss over warranty, they also took a lot of pictures as their evidence.
Keep in mind that he wasn't claiming about suspension, rather the gearbox & transfer case.
Things that should be rated to cope with the GCM, not just the GVM.
In his case the vehicle has a GVM of about 3300KG, and a GVM of 6500KG (somewhere around these numbers).
They are still arguing.
In my case I claimed that the suspension in the new BT-50 is crap and has collapsed with only 50% of the payload being carried, and by the time you get to 100% of the payload you're running on bumpstops.
The dealer weighed the truck under order from Mazda.
I knew this was happening, and I'd already checked the weight / axle loading myself by taking it to a weighbridge.
ATC
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I require all people on our 4wd club trips to carry 2 forms of lifting a vehicle..........
One of the few thing I got from the theory section of the 4wd Club course that I went to was the "Carry a Bottle Jack".
I have 4 different jacks (factory jack, 6000kg bottle jack, Hi-Lift, exhaust jack) haven't had to use them, and don't carry them all, jsut what suite the terrain here I'm going.
Was in an ARB shop one day and saw a Hi-Lift jack with a massive bow in it. They are generally only rated to 1000kg.
That's why I carry the 6000kg bottle jack.
Ironically the reason that I ignore most of what the old bloke at the 4WD club was talking about in the theory section was when he started talking about is GU Patrol is approx +3200KG just for driving around tow.
And that he doesn't see a problem with it, as it was designed based on a light truck chassie / running gear & engine.
Me I now what my truck weights, as when I add something to it I get it weighed, only costs $25 - cheap insurance.
ATC
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Ironically the reason that I ignore most of what the old bloke at the 4WD club was talking about in the theory section was when he started talking about is GU Patrol is approx +3200KG just for driving around tow.
And that he doesn't see a problem with it, as it was designed based on a light truck chassie / running gear & engine.
My landcruiser has a steel tray, steel toolboxes on the back, a PTO winch on the front, and a steel bull bar. With full fuel tanks and my fat arse sitting in it, it tips the scales at 3200kg. It isn't hard to get up to those kind of weights. Hence the reason why I got a vehicle with the GVM upgrade, so I can go up to 3780kg instead of the stock 3300kg.
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I understand weights when you talk about the car or trailer as separate things, but I’m a bit confused by the Kerb or Tare Weight and GVM when you combine car & trailer. For example when we go away for the week camping I know my 105 Cruiser is on it’s limits (before tailer is attached) and the trailer would weight about 700kgs fully loaded (it’s braked and registered for just over 1000kgs)
So by themselves they are legal, but are you saying once I hook the trailer up, I’m now too heavy?
Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread.
As I stated in my opening entry I thought, along with one of the Forum Moderators, it was a good idea to 'get this in the open' as an awareness thread. I do not really care that much what people load into their vehicles; however, they should be aware of the impact on GVM and any consequences resulting from possible overloading.
Hopefully Beachman has gained some info he can use. Hopefully some of those 850 or so 'viewers' who have not posted any comments have also gained some insights.
The bigger challenge will be if accessory outlets and vehicle sales persons actually start thinking/doing/saying "if you want all of those accessories added, you will most likely require a GVM upgrade to remain legal." I live in hope and probably dreamworld!!!
So, with today's modern vehicles, I see the options of dual cab utes and some of the 'plainer' variety - Land Rover Defenders for example (also note here that Land Rover Defender Kerb weights are defined as "Minimum kerb weight = Unladen weight + full tank and 75kg driver") - as providing at least some buyers the option of larger usable payloads around, or greater than, 900kg or so without a GVM upgrade.
Any Swaggers out there want to comment on legal GVM upgrade processes they have undergone?
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I believe austastar purchased his defender for carrying capacity reasons as well as it being a vehicle that he liked. It could carry his slip on camper well within limits.
He may be close to 75 kg too! 8)
Smart thinking.
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Manufacturers will do SFA about this until it becomes policed by legislation. As I said before most fourbies have a pathetic GVM.
When I got my cruiser upgraded, the guy said he used to do 3-5 upgrades a year. Since 2012 he has been doing 3-5 a month including a heap for the NSW government. I strongly believe the governments will click on to this one day and start checking, but they will also have to come up with something to allow older vehicles to be complianced. Currently in NSW you can not upgrade a GVM after initial registration and they do not acknowledge "state" based GVMs from other states.
Aftermarket suppliers like ARB will have to wake up. Currently the highest GVM upgrade ARB will do to a 200 cruiser is 3580kg (extra 280kg) My cruiser with bull bar, winch (dyneema) rear seats removed (-40kg) ply floor, fridge slide, full tanks (140l)and cargo barrier is 3000kg ! How many catalog special (steps, drawers, fridge, rack, rear bar, LR tank as well) 200s running around do you reckon comply with a family of 4 onboard? Little alone towing.
Fortunately Lovells do a 3800kg upgrade (+500kg) but you do get raped for it. Even with this you need to be cautious.
As above driving sensibly to the conditions is the key, and not just offroad.
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So, with today's modern vehicles, I see the options of dual cab utes and some of the 'plainer' variety - Land Rover Defenders for example as providing at least some buyers the option of larger usable payloads around, or greater than, 900kg or so without a GVM upgrade.
Unfortunately there is one trap that many fall into with the carrying capacity of dual cabs and that is the manufacturer expects you to load the 5 seats to the maximum if you intend taking the car up to GVM. I have seen plenty with heavier springs or air bags because the rear end is overloaded but the cabin contains two light weight adults and one or two featherweight kids in the back seat. To get them up to GVM and still look level, you need close to half a ton of people in the front.
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I had the GVM upgrade done on my Patrol after I had owned it for 3 years (from new).
As I had just shifted from Vic to WA, and the GVM upgrade was done whilst unreg'd (being transfered to WA reg). No issues there.
Cost was incorporated into the ute conversion (I think it was around $1700).
Issues that arose........
I had a 3 inch lift, max suspension lift on a GVM was 2 inch, so new suspension was bought (expense).
Tyres, the tyres I had at the time (Procomp extreme all terrains, 285x75x16) were deemed excessively above the load rating the vehicle was being examined for (3700kg). So I had to borrow some standard bridgestone duelers that were OE. (Non expense).
Chassis plating and top spring hat strut. This was also engineered, but was part of the tray inspection. (built in cost of the conversion).
The down side is it's only WA recognised as well however, I have been told (in writing) by my insurance co. that they realise this and my insurance is still covered outside of WA.
The biggest pain will be if I decide to move interstate or sell the vehicle interstate........
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Tyres, the tyres I had at the time (Procomp extreme all terrains, 285x75x16) were deemed excessively above the load rating the vehicle was being examined for (3700kg). So I had to borrow some standard bridgestone duelers that were OE. (Non expense).
Interested as to why over rated tyres were an issue?
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Some interesting FAQs here from one company regarding GVM and GVM upgrades.
http://www.statewide4x4.com.au/faq.aspx (http://www.statewide4x4.com.au/faq.aspx)
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My landcruiser has a steel tray, steel toolboxes on the back, a PTO winch on the front, and a steel bull bar. With full fuel tanks and my fat arse sitting in it, it tips the scales at 3200kg. It isn't hard to get up to those kind of weights. Hence the reason why I got a vehicle with the GVM upgrade, so I can go up to 3780kg instead of the stock 3300kg.
Symon,
My issue with the training course I did was the "Dickhead" trainer telling a bunch of new 4wd'ers that massively, overloading was routine and OK.
This is from an organization that is registered o provide 4wd driver training.
Got to put my truck on a diet, getting a few ideas from this thread.
Perhaps a companion thread on weight saving ideas.
Eg currently I carry a draw full of tools, got too park 1/2 to 2/3 of these in the garage and bring a smaller functional set..
ATC
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Interested as to why over rated tyres were an issue?
If I recall, the procomps were load rated at 1500kg, therefore the tyres are rated at 6000kg combined. Vehicle upgrade was 3700kg so almost half what the tryes are rated at.
The original equipment tyres rating (if I remember) was around 1100kg, so a total of 4400kg which is closer to the 3700kg.
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So, anyony know wro in Brisbane cane do GVM upgrade certification.
I've already done all the suspension upgrades, just need to get it certified ?
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So, anyony know wro in Brisbane cane do GVM upgrade certification.
I've already done all the suspension upgrades, just need to get it certified ?
a mate of mine is a certifier (I assume he can do GVM upgrades) and can fit blue plates.......although he follows all the rules to a tee and is very particular. I can pass on his details but you might want to also have a chat to other certifiers as well
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I understand weights when you talk about the car or trailer as separate things, but I’m a bit confused by the Kerb or Tare Weight and GVM when you combine car & trailer. For example when we go away for the week camping I know my 105 Cruiser is on it’s limits (before tailer is attached) and the trailer would weight about 700kgs fully loaded (it’s braked and registered for just over 1000kgs)
So by themselves they are legal, but are you saying once I hook the trailer up, I’m now too heavy?
So, continuing the 'awareness' theme of this thread and doing some research, I will attempt to answer Beachman's query, that Mace provided an answer and a link, with some definitions and examples and the impact of GVM upgrades. Post edited to not make reference to a particular vehicle
The issue here is what is known as Gross Combined Mass or GCM.
GCM is the most weight that your vehicle is allowed to tow and carry on your vehicle combined. That is, the combination of your vehicles GVM and the gross weight of whatever is towed. For example a vehicle has a GVM of 3350kg and Gross Trailer Weight (braked) of 3500kg and a GCM of 6850kg. In this case the GCM is simply the addition of the GVM and Gross Trailer Weight. Not all vehicles are like this so you should look up your respective vehicle specifications.
I don't think, aside from major and probably cost prohibitive modification, you cannot increase the overall GCM or the maximum towing capacity over the manufacturers specifications; however, this could be State dependent. By increasing the GVM of your vehicle you subsequently decrease the Gross Trailer Weight by the same amount.
Using the same vehicle figures again, if you were towing a 2500kg caravan with a ball weight of approx 250kg and the vehicle was loaded up to its maximum GVM of 3350kg (inc the 250 kg ball weight) then your combined mass would be:
GVM 3350kg + Caravan 2500kg = 5850kg
As you can see, you still have another 1000kg you could tow (assuming same 250 kg ball weight as any increase to this would put you over GVM) before you reach the vehicle's maximum GCM of 6850kg.
So what is the impact of a GVM Upgrade?
Now remember, the GCM for the vehicle above was calculated as 6850kg and cannot be changed. By having a GVM Upgrade fitted and increasing the GVM of the vehicle from say 3350kg to 3800kg, your Gross Trailer Weight (braked) is now decreased by the same amount your GVM is increased. So, looking at the original formula of: GVM + Gross Trailer Weight (braked) = GCM, we can now turn this around to calculate the new Gross Trailer Weight (braked) as: GCM - GVM = Gross Trailer Weight (braked), or 6850 kg - 3800kg (GVM Upgrade) = 3050kg in this case. So our new Gross Trailer Weight (braked) has reduced 450 kg from 3500 kg to 3050 kg, the same amount that the GVM Upgrade was increased (3800 kg - 3350 kg).
However, ensure you look up your vehicle's specifications as determining GVM and GCM vary between manufacturers.
As Mace said above: "clear as mud".
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So, continuing the 'awareness' theme of this thread and doing some research, I will attempt to answer Beachman's query, that Mace provided an answer and a link, with some definitions and real examples (weights taken from Toyota website) and the impact of GVM upgrades.
The issue here is what is known as Gross Combined Mass or GCM.
GCM is the most weight that your vehicle is allowed to tow and carry on your vehicle combined. That is, the combination of your vehicles GVM and the gross weight of whatever is towed. For example the Toyota GXL Turbo Diesel 200 Series has a GVM of 3350kg and Gross Trailer Weight (braked) of 3500kg. We add these together to determine the vehicle's GCM of 6850kg.
I don't thick, aside from major and probably cost prohibitive modification, you cannot increase the overall GCM or the maximum towing capacity over the manufacturers specifications. By increasing the GVM of your vehicle you subsesquently decrease the Gross Trailer Weight by the same amount.
Using the same 200 Series figures again, if you were towing a 2500kg caravan with a ball weight of approx 250kg and the 200 Series Landcruiser was loaded up to its maximum GVM of 3350kg (inc the 250 kg ball weight) then your combined mass would be:
GVM 3350kg + Caravan 2500kg = 5850kg
As you can see, you still have another 1000kg you could tow (assuming same 250 kg ball weight as any increase to this would put you over GVM) before you reach the manufacturers maximum GCM of 6850kg.
So what is the impact of a GVM Upgrade?
Now remember, the GCM for the 200 Series was calculated as 6850kg and cannot be changed. By having a GVM Upgrade fitted and increasing the GVM of the 200 Series Landcruiser from say 3350kg to 3800kg, your Gross Trailer Weight (braked) is now decreased by the same amount your GVM is increased. So, looking at the original formula of: GVM + Gross Trailer Weight (braked) = GCM, we can now turn this around to calculate the new Gross Trailer Weight (braked) as: GCM - GVM = Gross Trailer Weight (braked), or 6850 kg - 3800kg (GVM Upgrade) = 3050kg in this case. So our new Gross Trailer Weight (braked) has reduced 450 kg from 3500 kg to 3050 kg, the same amount that the GVM Upgrade was increased (3800 kg - 3350 kg).
As Mace said above: "clear as mud".
Chookduck Iam not going to go into all here as I couldn't be arsed. But on lcool the GVM/GCM debate has raged and not been concluded. There is not a clearly defined GCM listed for the 200 (or was) but is worked out as above and iirc their was a member who had information to the contrary from Toyota. So the GCM of GVM upgraded 200's is a grey area, bit like the clearance light issue as well.
FYI both the GVM and towing capacity is able to be upgraded, and again on lcool someone posted a compliance plate that listed both increased 3800kg each iirc.
Edit Seems in NSW the towing capacity can't be increased anymore.
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Below is the compressive list of vehicle specs out out by the caravan mob, it's complied for manufacturers and transport I think. This is the Toyota page from 2012.
So on my door I have a compliance plate that states GVM 3800kg and next to it I have the Toyota towing plate stating 3500 towing mass 350kg ball. No GCM pretty straight forward in my eyes :cheers: in saying that I don't tow anything over 2t but wanted the GVM to make the vehicle legal.
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Chookduck Iam not going to go into all here as I couldn't be arsed. But on lcool the GVM/GCM debate has raged and not been concluded. There is not a clearly defined GCM listed for the 200 (or was) but is worked out as above and iirc their was a member who had information to the contrary from Toyota. So the GCM of GVM upgraded 200's is a grey area, bit like the clearance light issue as well.
FYI both the GVM and towing capacity is able to be upgraded, and again on lcool someone posted a compliance plate that listed both increased 3800kg each iirc.
Edit Seems in NSW the towing capacity can't be increased anymore.
Thanks achjimmy. I only used the 200 Series as an example. I could have just said Vehicle XYZ. It was more the math process i was interested in.
I'll change the post.
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Thanks achjimmy. I only used the 200 Series as an example. I could have just said Vehicle XYZ. It was more the math process i was interested in.
I'll change the post.
No worries Chook. It's a bit unusual the 200 not having a GCM.
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No worries Chook. It's a bit unusual the 200 not having a GCM.
And no where near as complicated as some dual cab 4WD utes - take the Navara for instance and have a look at the specs page at http://www.nissan.com.au/~/media/Files/Brochures/Specifications/D40-Navara-Specification.ashx (http://www.nissan.com.au/~/media/Files/Brochures/Specifications/D40-Navara-Specification.ashx)
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Pretty sure light vehicles DONT have a GCM and thats part of the GVM upgrade problem
Only state GVM and max towing capacity
To be certified properly (braking ability being key concern) max towing needs to be reduced as well as GVM increased
GVM can only be upgraded to next major component constraint level, ie max axle weights, many manufacturers dont even quote this.
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Pretty sure light vehicles DONT have a GCM and thats part of the GVM upgrade problem
They will, but it may be the fine print.
For example, here's a Colorado brochure! the GCM is right down the bottom in the capacity calculator section.
http://www.wth.com.au/colorado/files/Colorado%20brochure.pdf (http://www.wth.com.au/colorado/files/Colorado%20brochure.pdf)
Interesting that the brochure includes a payload calculator! Good on em.
:cheers:
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GCM is provided in the Jackaroo handbook.
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Toyota does not stipulate a GCM for the 200 Series and have advised me, knowing that I have an ARB GVM Upgrade, that the maximum towing capacity remains the published 3500 kg.
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Toyota does not stipulate a GCM for the 200 Series and have advised me, knowing that I have an ARB GVM Upgrade, that the maximum towing capacity remains the published 3500 kg.
Correct.
Plenty of discussion here:
http://www.kedronownersgroup.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1231 (http://www.kedronownersgroup.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1231)
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I just saw this on Facebook!
EDIT Only slightly photoshopped LOL
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Pity most manufacturers do not have specs definitions such as Land Rover. Looking at the specs for the Discovery 4 you find that Kerb (Weight from), GVM (Gross vehicle weight), Towing and Roof weight limits all defined.
Weights (kg)
Weight from 2,570 (Including fluids, 90% fuel and 75kg driver)
Gross vehicle weight 3,240
Towing (kg)
Max towing 3,500
Unbraked trailer 750
Maximum trailer nose weight 350
Maximum mass of vehicle and trailer combination (GTW) 6,740
Carrying (kg)
Maximum roof load (including roof rails/bars) 75
Maximum payload (including driver 75kg) 670
Makes it a lot easier to figure out what you can and cannot do wrt weights.
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I require all people on our 4wd club trips to carry 2 forms of lifting a vehicle..........
Case....(and it has happened on a trip I was on, names and places are changed to protect the guilty, and no it wasn't me ;D)
You're on a remote trip, say the Anne Beadell, travelling in a convoy of 3 vehicles. You have stretched out to keep dust down. You're tail end charlie.
You call the others that you are stopping for a pit stop and you will catch up to the others. You are now out of UHF range by the time you get back to your vehicle. A photo opportunity arises. This puts you further back. Now, this scenario has been played out many times not only on this trip, but others as well.
Damn, you get a puncture and not realising that it was flat, it's now shredded. You stop and change the tyre. Now you've got the wheel off and due to the terrain, it slips of the jack. You now are stuck, no uhf comms, the truck is on the deck and you now have to wait for your travel buddies to realise some thing is wrong and you haven't caught up and turn around (could be hours) or say you're travelling with your family and the scenario above happens but the rig has fallen trapping you under it. Do you have a second jack that the missus could lift the vehicle off you?
If you are travelling solo (which I mostly do) or with a small group, you need to carry everything.............and then some..........
For what it is worth i always slip the spare under the chassis while jacking up and quickly replace it with the flat tyre once i have removed it.
If the vehicle falls at least i can get the jack back under the vehicle and relift.
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Pity most manufacturers do not have specs definitions such as Land Rover. Looking at the specs for the Discovery 4 you find that Kerb (Weight from), GVM (Gross vehicle weight), Towing and Roof weight limits all defined.
Weights (kg)
Weight from 2,570 (Including fluids, 90% fuel and 75kg driver)
Gross vehicle weight 3,240
Towing (kg)
Max towing 3,500
Unbraked trailer 750
Maximum trailer nose weight 350
Maximum mass of vehicle and trailer combination (GTW) 6,740
Carrying (kg)
Maximum roof load (including roof rails/bars) 75
Maximum payload (including driver 75kg) 670
Makes it a lot easier to figure out what you can and cannot do wrt weights.
There is also a bit that they don't tell you, possibly because there are far too many variables involved to even try and list them.
The following is an email I received from Land Rover a couple of years ago in answer to a question regarding the off road towing capacity of a Defender.
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The Towing mass is reduced when the vehicle is used off-road to the levels below
Unbraked Trailer 500kg
Overrun Brakes 1000kg
Fully Coupled Brakes 1500kg
Please do not hesitate to contact us with any query.
Regards
David Jensen
Land Rover Australia
Tel: 1800 809 308
Email:contactus@landrover-customers.com.au
www.landrover.com.au (http://www.landrover.com.au)
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I would not be the slightest bit surprised if the carrying capacity would also be reduced in off sealed road road conditions and the same would apply to all other makes.
It really is just common sense. You can't load a car to its maximum or beyond then take it into rough conditions and expect maximum reliability. This is a major reason why so many break in the bush.
In my armed forces days we were taught to reduce towing and carrying capacity by 50%.
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Hooray,
At last some great advice from a manufacturer, unlike Toyota with regard to the capabilities of the 200.
Contact the company with regard to GVCM etc it a legal cop out IMO. People hear and read what they want to know, not what they don't want to be to be told.
Unfortunately far to many load their vehicles up to 90% plus of their towing capacity and expect them to perform and be safe in all conditions, be them on the black top or off main road.
At least LR will put it in writing. Good on them.
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People hear and read what they want to know, not what they don't want to be to be told.
Very true.
I asked a couple of other manufacturers: Mitsubishi said they do not recommend towing the maximum advertised capacity in off road or 4wd track conditions but did not specify a maximum off road capacity.
The Hilux often comes in for a bit of criticism for having a towing capacity well below its competitors. Toyota told me it can tow its maximum capacity off road but do NOT tow at all in soft dry sand! I did not ask them about the 200.
A Nissan dealer told me the Navara will not tow its maximum capacity off road.
Holden said their cars will tow their maximum capacity on all road surfaces but I am still waiting to see a Colorado TV commercial showing one running along a dirt road towing anything that looks like it could weigh anywhere near the maximum.
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For what it is worth i always slip the spare under the chassis while jacking up and quickly replace it with the flat tyre once i have removed it.
If the vehicle falls at least i can get the jack back under the vehicle and relift.
Yep, my father taught me to this, also if you are under the vehicle you wont be completely crushed.
;D
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Yep, my father taught me to this, also if you are under the vehicle you wont be completely crushed.
;D
ditto
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Mightnt be that simple, there are reports of Road Traffic Authority (NSW) randomly pulling over vehicles that are towing and running them over the scales.
A good report and I think there are a number of vehicles and trailers out there that are over GVM unknown to the drivers.
Trevor
My parents have seen this happen in Qld too.
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I don't think this bloke has any idea of legal weights!
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For what it is worth i always slip the spare under the chassis while jacking up and quickly replace it with the flat tyre once i have removed it.
If the vehicle falls at least i can get the jack back under the vehicle and relift.
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Likewise, and it's a good practice, but what if you jack is now wedged under ya vehicle along with ya spare (yes I've got a second spare wheel) but not a jack.........hence 2 forms of lifting a vehicle......
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Too many what ifs... You have too much bad luck, and carry too much sh!t.
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Just on GVM upgrades. Be aware of follow-on issues. A certain Telco whose vehicles do a lot of remote area kms at one point had patrols delivered with GVM upgrades to cope with the amount of gear they carry. All was good until they found that chassis' were cracking due to the extra weight carried on rough roads.
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I read this on another forum, and I would take it as true.
Quote 23rd january 2014
I understand it has been a very interesting two mornings for people heading to Fraser Island.
Queensland Transport set up portable scales just before you leave the bitumen going onto the sand.
It has been reported they are checking for overloaded vehicles, trailers and boats.
If you are heading for Fraser Island this weekend be aware.
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I read this on another forum, and I would take it as true.
Quote 23rd january 2014
I understand it has been a very interesting two mornings for people heading to Fraser Island.
Queensland Transport set up portable scales just before you leave the bitumen going onto the sand.
It has been reported they are checking for overloaded vehicles, trailers and boats.
If you are heading for Fraser Island this weekend be aware.
Must say I'm not surprised. There has been quite a few recoveries due to broken chassis, not to mention all the rollovers that happen on the island.
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Too many what ifs... You have too much bad luck, and carry too much sh!t.
When you do remote travel solo like I do, you cover as many "what ifs" as possible.
I'd rather be a few kg over my gvm than dead!
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Interesting comment to this article.
http://theage.drive.com.au/what-car-should-i-buy/what-offroader-should-i-buy-20140207-3258b.html (http://theage.drive.com.au/what-car-should-i-buy/what-offroader-should-i-buy-20140207-3258b.html)
Quote
I was stopped at an RTA inspection station recently pulling a friend's horse float. I was driving a Toyota Landcruiser tray back with a 3500kg electrically braked tow kit on the back. The weight of the Cruiser was around 3000kg, the weight of the horse float with live stock was around 2800kg. The RTA inspectors told me that if the weight of the trailer exceeds the weight of the vehicle, the towing combination is illegal, no matter what the towing capacity of the vehicle is. As someone who really never tows - I was unaware of this.
Luckily my tralier weighed less than the vehicle so I was on my way. But I wonder how many people buy these vehicles thinking they can tow up to the vehciles maximum towing capacity, when according to the RTA Inspectors who stopped me - you can only tow a load equal or less to the weight of your vehicle.
CommenterAlex G Location Date and time February 10, 2014, 4:24PM
End quote
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I'm not sure how true that is Mace, but as a general rule, I always like to drive something heavier than I am towing.. Its generally safer, especially when sh!t goes wrong.