MySwag.org The Off-road Camper Trailer Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: deldridg on April 06, 2013, 11:55:47 AM
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Hi all,
an Easter experience has prompted me to write this message which may or may not be appropriate for this forum. If not - my humble apology.
On Easter Friday morning, our family headed west from Sydney in the fourby with CT for a few days of camping away from the crowds. Just out of Lithgow on the Bathurst side, we were flagged over by the police and joined a long queue of fourbys with/without campers. Turns out they were checking for firearms.
I asked the copper if they were finding anything and his response was alarming - he told me they were finding a surprisingly high number of unregistered guns (and other weapons) in vehicles amongst a lot of registered ones. Hmmm - I thought. Clearly there are a lot of people wanting to shoot things, apparently many of whom were prepared to break the law to do so.
Getting to the point - we have young kids and spend a lot of time in National Parks and State Forests and no doubt many of you do too. I will do anything to keep my family out of danger and so will be fighting this dangerous momentum which doubtless will lead to a likely increase in risks for all concerned. Simple equation - where there are guns and other weapons (registered or not), there will be accidents (or worse).
My wife handed me a brochure this morning about a rally outside Parliament House in Sydney on Thu 18th April, from 12:30 to 1:30pm. Despite not being politically motivated activist types, my wife and I will be there to oppose recreational hunting in our parks and hope some of you may feel the same way and come along. I believe their website is: www.nohunting.com.au (http://www.nohunting.com.au).
For the record - I grew up in the country and can handle a firearm and have done a fair amount of shooting on private farms over the years, so I'm (hopefully) not being a complete wowser here. Guns and bows & arrows have their place but they are not compatible with the safe outdoor camping activities of my family and yours.
Finally - it is well established that the "pest eradication" justification for these policies is fundamentally flawed and simply does not stack up against the risks. The effectiveness of amateur 'pest hunting' is extremely low - there is plenty of supporting doco to this effect.
So - hope to be amongst some of you folk on the 18th.
Cheers and happy, safe camping,
Dave E (Sydney)
PS. Just had to add this link. Excellent form and gives my rant some cred. http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/senior-hunting-official-charged-20130406-2hd2e.html# (http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/senior-hunting-official-charged-20130406-2hd2e.html#)
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We were pulled up at the same check point. There was plenty of guns being inspected.
The Police asked me if I had any weapons in the car, I said no, blew into the breath tester and drove off. Thanks goodness he didn't want us to unpack the car, not that we had any weapons, it was so tightly packed I don't think we would have got it all back in.
Bunyip
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I will do anything to keep my family out of danger and so will be fighting this
save your breath, I believe the shooters party has the controlling vote in NSW now?? Havnet they added shooting as a lesson?
http://www.smh.com.au/national/education/push-for-guns-in-schools-20110716-1hj5q.html (http://www.smh.com.au/national/education/push-for-guns-in-schools-20110716-1hj5q.html)
Shooting for schools
Many sporting organisations offer enjoyable and appropriate programs for children that can be delivered at the school venue and tailored to the school's needs.
Sport and Recreation has developed the Sports Directory for Schools to assist NSW schools in their delivery of sport and physical activity and encourage better links between school and sporting communities.
This information is designed to help teachers find out about the types of programs sporting organisations can offer schools.
http://www.dsr.nsw.gov.au/gatewaytosport/directory_sport.asp?activityid=54 (http://www.dsr.nsw.gov.au/gatewaytosport/directory_sport.asp?activityid=54)
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Heard the other day that the NP staff want to be fitted out with Flack Jackets.What does that tell you.
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Heard the other day that the NP staff want to be fitted out with Flack Jackets.What does that tell you.
Lots of scare mongering from the unions.
Since there were a lot of illegal/unregistered firearms it tells me that illegal activity was quite widespread. Which to me means that new hunting laws or not it's going to happen.
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Our house borders a national park, so must admit I'm not that keen on the idea of people shooting close to our house. There was a fairly lengthy discussion on that on here about 12 months ago, but cant seem to find the thread at the moment!
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When on the way to Tassie we stopped at Glenrowan CP in a cabin,late that arvo sitting around the cabin outside having a beer shots starting ringing out on the property next to the CP we sh...t ourselves as it was really close.Anyway it seems it was a common practice .Then i walked around the side of the cabin and low and behold there was a hole in the aluminium wall that looked like a bullet hole showed the wife she couldnt beleive it.It was from another day.All i could think of was that truck driver in Sydney a few years ago who was just sitting on the side of the road and a stray bullet killed him ,it was fired from a k away .
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Petty naive view in my opinion. I am not really an avid hunter however I do work in a compliance role that over laps into NP's and State Forrests. I also have NPWS compliance powers.
I have seen legal shooting in state Forrests have some positive impacts.
Firstly you are kidding yourself if you think hunting and shooting in NP's in not occurring now. It has been forever and the people who do it are taking risks and are uncontrolled. They also have a lot at stake and are willing to do whatever it takes to evade detection and capture in many instances.
Legal shooting is controlled, numbers are limited and the activity is confined to certain areas. The guys that undertake this have to be above board at all levels and hold specific licences and certifications. If they stuff up they loose their gear and access.
What has occurred locally, Bathurst and Lithgow, is that the incidence of illegal hunting has decreased with the introduction of the enthusiasts. This is because there are now more eyes in the Forrest and these enthusiasts report the illegal hunters to authorities to protect their sport. Previously there were no enthusiasts and no eyes in the Forrest.
I don't agree with the policy, but all of the scare mongering is miss guided, Because the illegal hunters are going to be there and probably in greater numbers with or without the introduction of legal hunting.
A well controlled system of legal hunters keeping and eye on things may not be all doom and gloom, and to be honest you are unlikely to notice they are about, much the same as you don't see the illegal ones that have been doing it for a millennium now.
Jas
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Petty naive view in my opinion. I am not really an avid hunter however I do work in a compliance role that over laps into NP's and State Forrests. I also have NPWS compliance powers.
I have seen legal shooting in state Forrests have some positive impacts.
Firstly you are kidding yourself if you think hunting and shooting in NP's in not occurring now. It has been forever and the people who do it are taking risks and are uncontrolled. They also have a lot at stake and are willing to do whatever it takes to evade detection and capture in many instances.
Legal shooting is controlled, numbers are limited and the activity is confined to certain areas. The guys that undertake this have to be above board at all levels and hold specific licences and certifications. If they stuff up they loose their gear and access.
What has occurred locally, Bathurst and Lithgow, is that the incidence of illegal hunting has decreased with the introduction of the enthusiasts. This is because there are now more eyes in the Forrest and these enthusiasts report the illegal hunters to authorities to protect their sport. Previously there were no enthusiasts and no eyes in the Forrest.
I don't agree with the policy, but all of the scare mongering is miss guided, Because the illegal hunters are going to be there and probably in greater numbers with or without the introduction of legal hunting.
A well controlled system of legal hunters keeping and eye on things may not be all doom and gloom, and to be honest you are unlikely to notice they are about, much the same as you don't see the illegal ones that have been doing it for a millennium now.
Jas
So your going to get the illegal ones, who will be there now and forever, your not going to stop them, and then add in the now legal ones.. So there will be an increase - yes?
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So your going to get the illegal ones, who will be there now and forever, your not going to stop them, and then add in the now legal ones.. So there will be an increase - yes?
Read my post again Mr.
There has been a decrease in illegal hunting in the Forrests around here since they have been opened to legal hunting. I guess the illegal guys (some at least) have either got their act together and become legal or gone to greener pastures, private properties or other areas.
The coppers and game council rangers have had a number of successful prosecutions of illegal hunters that were apprehended only because of information provided by legal hunters.
The authorities now have better powers due to licensing to take action on those they find with fire arms but not authorised to be in a particular area.
Not saying its a perfect system, but as it stands illegal hunting is rife. There may be some positives, however like most emotive issues these get quickly over looked when people jump to conclusions.
I don't support it. But have an understanding of both sides of the argument.
Jas
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Petty naive view in my opinion. I am not really an avid hunter however I do work in a compliance role that over laps into NP's and State Forrests. I also have NPWS compliance powers.
I have seen legal shooting in state Forrests have some positive impacts.
Firstly you are kidding yourself if you think hunting and shooting in NP's in not occurring now. It has been forever and the people who do it are taking risks and are uncontrolled. They also have a lot at stake and are willing to do whatever it takes to evade detection and capture in many instances.
Legal shooting is controlled, numbers are limited and the activity is confined to certain areas. The guys that undertake this have to be above board at all levels and hold specific licences and certifications. If they stuff up they loose their gear and access.
What has occurred locally, Bathurst and Lithgow, is that the incidence of illegal hunting has decreased with the introduction of the enthusiasts. This is because there are now more eyes in the Forrest and these enthusiasts report the illegal hunters to authorities to protect their sport. Previously there were no enthusiasts and no eyes in the Forrest.
I don't agree with the policy, but all of the scare mongering is miss guided, Because the illegal hunters are going to be there and probably in greater numbers with or without the introduction of legal hunting.
A well controlled system of legal hunters keeping and eye on things may not be all doom and gloom, and to be honest you are unlikely to notice they are about, much the same as you don't see the illegal ones that have been doing it for a millennium now.
Jas
I agree with you Jason, the legal hunters are under tight restrictions and any self respecting legal hunter will do what they can to protect their pastime. NP's and rec parks are closed to hunters during peak holiday times including public holidays so no legal hunter will be anywhere near a campsite. I personally have a young family and shudder about what illegal hunters are doing to what is actually one of the safest past times.
Somehow sent from my iPhone using that Tapatalk thingy
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Just spotted this thread - it seems that NSW folks are all highly worked up about legalised hunting in the States National Parks.
Emotions running amok and whipped on by anti hunting/firearm organisations no doubt.
All I can tell NSW'ers is that legal Sambar Deer Stalking for 10 months of the year has been occurring for decades in Victoria and has caused no real problems.
The ethical and legal stalkers in the Vic. N.P.'s are probably the best source of information re any illegal activity and have strong views on anyone bringing hunting into disrepute.
Flak jackets etc.....what!!!.....get over it. 8) ;D
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There is a lot of scaremongering by a lot of latte sippers, licensed shooters have been shooting in Vic national parks for decades and NSW state forests for about the last 5 years. If you feel the need to support the very people who actively seek to lock up our great outdoors so that your kids will never be able to camp anywhere but a caravan park that is completely up to you enjoy the day,
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Just spotted this thread - it seems that NSW folks are all highly worked up about legalised hunting in the States National Parks.
Emotions running amok and whipped on by anti hunting/firearm organisations no doubt.
All I can tell NSW'ers is that legal Sambar Deer Stalking for 10 months of the year has been occurring for decades in Victoria and has caused no real problems.
The ethical and legal stalkers in the Vic. N.P.'s are probably the best source of information re any illegal activity and have strong views on anyone bringing hunting into disrepute.
Flak jackets etc.....what!!!.....get over it. 8) ;D
Was just going to post up the same thing. Without politicizing this thread , the All powerful NSW public sector unions need something to attack the current NSW government with and this is what they are organizing, with support from the Bambi brigade they have got a voice. NP shooting has been happening in VIC for years. Something is required to reduce the ferel animal population and the states don't want to spend monies on pro hunters so this is it. Read up on hunting, you have more chance of being run over in the NP than you have being shot, but the Bambi brigade won't let you think that, they will have you thinking poor bunny wabbit, or Bambi or billy goat! They are all ferels that need eradicating to keep Australian wildlife safe!!!
Personally my view is I would perfer pro hunters
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There is a lot of scaremongering by a lot of latte sippers, licensed shooters have been shooting in Vic national parks for decades and NSW state forests for about the last 5 years. If you feel the need to support the very people who actively seek to lock up our great outdoors so that your kids will never be able to camp anywhere but a caravan park that is completely up to you enjoy the day,
Agree, do gooders have a lot to answer for. Some of the most rediculous regulations we have are because of meddling by noisy minorities unfortunately. Not suggesting the OP is in his category, but you seriously have to be careful what you wish for.
Jas
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For the record I don't like the idea of hunting in National Parks, however understand it happens and is required to a certain extent.
On a tag along tour a couple of years back we came across some pig hunters late in the afternoon that had 4 large bores on the back of the truck, and the look they gave us (as if we stumbled on to something dodgy) was quite unnerving. They had their weapons in full view in a commando type stance, as we drove our convoy past their truck on a tight track. I recall the guide saying 'stay off the CB for a couple of mins' as we cleared the track and got on to a main road. Again, the vacant look on their faces did freak me out, and made me nervous with the wife and my 1 year old in back.
I hope if this bill passes, we become pragmatic about it. I'd like hunting to be restricted to certain days and communicated on entry into Parks (perhaps similar to the fire alert boards). That was I can make an informed decision NOT to take my kid into the park.
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This is a copy of a speech given to a council in response to them wanting to write a letter to express their disapproval in regards to hunting in NPWS.
Anyway, here's the blurb.
As a ratepayer, I’d like to object to council time being used to pursue an ill-informed, overtly political agenda which this letter clearly is.
As a law abiding responsible hunter with 40 years experience, I could talk at length about the issues at the heart of the motion, but as I only have 3 minutes I will need to restrict myself to the specific themes raise in the motion.
Firstly, the use of the terms “amateur” and “professional. The harsh reality is that there is no real difference other than money changing hands. We have the same licensing regime, the same safety test and we operate to the same safety protocols.
I refer you to the Dept Environment, Climate Change and Water firearms management manual which, incidentally, is 90% about policy, regulation, compliance and OHS issues for staff. Never the less, it does state unequivocally that (and I quote) “The use of firearms is one of the most humane and effective techniques for destroying animals”.
Page 4 of the manual talks about Professionalism; you will see that the term is used in the context of competency, not employment status. The manual freely talks about the use of both volunteers and contractors as well as paid staff, and the rules apply to all.
On the subject of competency, you may not realise that Departmental staff only have to qualify with firearms every 5 years. Try getting a hole in one, first go, having not picked up a golf club in 5 years!
My personal observations during the ACT roo culler’s competency tests was that the “amateurs” passed with flying colours, whilst the park rangers struggled. So much for only using professionals.
The undeniable fact is, National Parks staff already shoot in parks, most often (other than in euthanasia situations) from helicopters using semi-automatic centrefire rifles equipped with silencers. Their own document (pg120) rates this as “low risk” as long as the gates are locked and signposted, and staff, neighbours and other contractors are advised that shooting is taking place.
They don’t seem to place much emphasis on park users other than a cursory check of any camp grounds. Why? Because park users and ferals tend to occupy different areas of the parks. Don’t believe the orchestrated fear mongering that would have you believe that hunters and other park users will be tripping over each other. It just does not happen.
Licenced hunters have operated in NSW state forests for several years and in Victorian National Parks for decades with an admirable safety record, and there is nothing magical about NSW NP’s that makes them materially different. Bush walkers are more at risk driving to the NP than they are from bullets, professional or amateur.
On the subject of animal welfare, the manual refers readers to the DAFF codes of practice, and in turn the Sharp and Saunders model for assessing the relative humaneness of available pest animal control methods.
It should be noted that the scientific rigour of the Sharp and Saunders model has been called into question (ironically, by amateur hunters - the redneck ones I hunt with hold PhD’s in environmental sciences by the way) and it is currently unavailable online as it is “under review”, never the less it is the closest we have to the “scientific rigour” you are seeking.
It consistently rates ground based shooting as the most humane method available and only discounts it on the basis of cost. The use of volunteers changes that cost paradigm significantly, to the point that it becomes a no brainer. We don’t need more money, we need more progressive thinking on how to deal with the problem. I note the draft letter does not suggest any alternative solutions by the way.
Certainly from an animal welfare perspective, ground based shooting is far preferable to aerial shooting and 1080 poisoning, which are the only viable real world alternatives.
I don’t need to point out the challenges of hitting a target from a moving helicopter, and the ability to monitor the results when flying above the trees. I have access to footage of a NPWS aerial pig cull which would make you sick. I also have access to footage of animals dying slow, painful deaths from 1080 if anyone cares to see that.
Shooting might be confronting, it might be unpalatable, but there can be no credible argument that it is THE most humane method, when done competently. It is target specific, does not pollute the environment with poison residues, or keep on killing up the food chain as the victims are consumed by predators, as poison can.
Lastly, on the subject of tourism. The Victorian Agriculture and Food Security Minister Peter Walsh was recently quoted as saying that "Duck hunting provides a significant economic benefit to Victoria, generating about $100 million annually”.
The NSW Game Council of NSW Public Benefit Assessment 2011-12 identifies a total net benefit to NSW from public land hunting of just under $3m, with Gross Regional Product of $50.8 million.
If council is concerned about the tourism dollar, the simple message is - be nice to hunters. I could go on but my time is up.
I have debunked your concerns about safety, animal welfare, scientific rigour and loss of tourism. What else is there other than pure, unadulterated ideology?
In closing, I have to ask, why is Council even worried about this subject? Local council is not a pre-school for green leaning councillors with their eye on a seat in the NSW legislative assembly.
Stick to your knitting please. If you have spare cycles, I wouldn’t mind seeing a plan to get my road sealed, or for one of my emails to council to get a response.
If you do decide to write a letter, then at least research the topic and ask informed questions. As it stands, this letter is an embarrassment to all who vote in favour of it.
Anyway hope this helps,
Cheers
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What power do the NSW police have to check your vehicle for a firearm?
Just wondering.
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This hunting will not be happening in -every- national park. As I understand it, it will be in less than 10% of existing parks. My further understanding is these parks will be in remote and rural areas, not in high traffic parks or those on the fringes of metropolitan areas. The loony Greens in NSW are feeling irrelevant since not gaining the balance of power at the last election, so are making noises, along with the unions that support them. Legal hunting has been happening in State Forests for years, and you'd hardly have known it was happening if not for a vocal group that is against any outdoor activities that don't fit their agenda of hand wringing authoritarianism.
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What power do the NSW police have to check your vehicle for a firearm?
Just wondering.
All the powers in the world my friend.!
BHG
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I am glad they are checking, a bit more proactive effort by the police and we might see some of the thousands of illegal firearms hauled in.
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I'm just wondering how well the gun amnesty worked all those years ago???
Seems to me the only people who did the right thing were the honest ones. (probably my swaggers ;D) Surprise surprise.
Back door government deals, illegal trading, unlicensed fools, and politics..........
Can anyone remind me why I go bush???
Bring in massively harsh penalties for offenders and let those honest people get on with living life.
Stop punishing the innocent. ( Off topic, this may also currently apply to super ;D ;D ;D )
Cheers
Brian
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I'm just wondering how well the gun amnesty worked all those years ago???
Seems to me the only people who did the right thing were the honest ones. (probably my swaggers ;D) Surprise surprise.
Back door government deals, illegal trading, unlicensed fools, and politics..........
Can anyone remind me why I go bush???
Bring in massively harsh penalties for offenders and let those honest people get on with living life.
Stop punishing the innocent. ( Off topic, this may also currently apply to super ;D ;D ;D )
Cheers
Brian
There is another amnesty on in NSW now. I don't think anyone has anything to fear from serious hunting enthusiasts. I agree totally those found doing the wrong thing should be smashed, vehicles seized etc.
Jas
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All the powers in the world my friend.!
BHG
Seriously. What power?
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Seriously. What power?
Depends on the circumstances I believe mate. If they have a reason to believe? They can stop, search and detain vehicles. Also they can obviously check licences and firearms registration and make seizures when appropriate.
We actually have better search powers for fish and fishing gear. Which is odd, the police I work with stop and search a lot of vehicles under our legislation, looking for fish of course :angel: and then deal with what they find.
Jas
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I have camped and 4x4 in state forest around Lithgow area and have seen the odd hunter or two. It has not worried me one bit. Just remove the reindeer antlers off the car and don't wear Camo gear.
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Im all for legal hunting pretty much anywhere. What all the anti hunting people forget to tell you is its been legal in State forrests for years with very few if any innocent parties injured.
I think these are the rules I read somewhere.
Before a legal gun owner can hunt in a forest they have to get permits and then they can only hunt in designated or sign posted areas. Hunters must have a bright orange piece of clothing on and must follow all the heavily regulated rules. Legal hunters can only shoot certain animals from a list of pest species, No they cant shoot roos and koala,s like some might have you believe.
Illegal hunters can shoot anywhere they like at anything they like dressed in anything they like as drunk or drugged as they like and nobody does anything.
Responsible Legal hunters despise illegal hunters so will be very quick to report any illegal or suspect activity they see. Your family will actually be safer with more legal hunters around you.
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A Highly emotive issue and guaranteed to polarise people, the PSA in NSW is doing an excellent job at feeding the hysteria with talk of flack jackets etc. I will make one post on this subject as it is somewhat off topic, and I will also declare my stake in this as recent former President/current Vice Pres of a hunting club in Victoria.
In Victoria there has been open access to public land hunting "forever", and deer hunting in the alpine nation park since before it was national park. The safety record is very good. There are 22000 game permits issued annually in Vic for deer hunting, and there has been 3 fatalities in the last 55 years, 2 of those three were related party's hunting in proximity. Nobody has been shot on a road/in a car or campsite by a legal hunter ever.
Compared to recreational fishing, where last time I looked at the stats there multiple people dying yearly, due to being swept off the rocks, boating accidents and other misadventures. I do not belittle any death, and do not offer that to trivialize, merely to illustrate that this issue is getting far more media attention than it deserves in terms of the risk attached.
Legal hunting does reduce illegal activity, rogues do what they do under the cover of anonymity and out of sight. Those who do the right thing object to being tarred with the same brush as the poachers and rogues, and secondly, we jump through the hoops and compliance and resent being undercut by poachers etc, so issues are reported and people and dobbed in for doing the wrong thing.
Much of the time hunters are in the bush is the time when nobody else wants to be, the peak deer hunting season runs May through to November, most weekends the only other campers I see are deer hunters in the mountains as it too cold for mum and dad and kids.
Hunting is done away from roads and tracks, as generally game animals are most likely found where people are not, hunters go bush, they do not shoot from roads etc (which is already illegal)
the NSW proposal is 10% of NP being open, not all so represents a drop in the ocean.
Lastly its public land, we all own it, not the NPWS, not the politicians, not the bushwalkers/birdwatchers, not the NPA - all of us, so why should a legal healthy and proven safe passtime not be allowed, its no different to locking campers and 4wd out of areas.
The media love to portray the redneck yobbo hunters, and the "large calibre semi automatic assault sniper rifles" the reality is we are all just normal people who like to source our own meat, spend time getting close to nature, and enjoy the outdoors, we value the animals and the access, and actively control ferals like foxes/dogs/feral cats etc. There is always the odd F%$^ wit in the crowd as with any activity, but they are thankfully rare.
If you are up my way, drop in and I will make you some Venison and Guiness casserole :)
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G'day deldridg. You don't think the copper might have been justifying the operation? "Yeah mate, we've caught heaps. It's been TOTALLY worth it....". You also claim to not be a total wowser, but i dunno whether you noticed the website says NO hunting, not safe hunting, or more careful hunting, or less unneccessary hunting.
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The OP hasn't responded or commented again since raising he issue ???
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Yeah, I noticed that, but it was only posted around 10 a.m. yesterday. We better give him a chance, eh?
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Why would the OP raise their head again when the sentiment has been totally agin them?
I'm not entirely happy with the proposal, nor the way the political agreement was reached.
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Maybe the OP was looking for support...
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I don't think there is an issue with the contrary views posted. I am surprised that no one else has voiced an objection, but then maybe no one else has any.
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I wonder if every time he gets breath tested and asks the copper how many DUI's they've caught, he feels politically motivated to go to a anti-drink driving rally?...
'Cause as we ALL know, heaps and heaps more people die every year from drink driving than firearm accidents.......
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The OP is entiltled to his opinion, and as I posted even as a person who has licensed firearms I would perfer it be handled by pro's. The thing I object to is that the "against" argument will get bought into by the Vegans, anti gun coalition, Bambi brigade etc who don't want to see any hunting cause it kills furry things, they call themselves animal conservationist, they don't want the camels culled, foxes killed etc but it is not ecologically substainable in Australia.
To own firearms today, you are ostracized and made to feel like your a pshyopathic red neck!
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I know I said one post but it got the better of me :laugh:
achjimmy I get the sentiment behind your post but what defines a professional hunter?
Over a year i would spend something in the vicinity of 10 - 20 hours a week carrying a firearm for recreational reasons, and I would discharge in excess of 500 - 1000 rounds a year, more than most soldiers, and definitely more than most police officers. I would wager I am a better shot and far more familiar with the tools than most coppers I know.
Many of the guys I hunt with are similar, hunting and shooting is part of our lives at an intimate level...how do you draw the line between pro and recreation. The professionals concept is another construct of the anti's, designed to make it seem like most hunters are unsafe when the reality is quite the opposite.
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Totally agree with JasonB and GanG,
I would think that most licensed shooters would fully understand what they have to lose these days by not being legal at all times, I know I do.
And as far as the road block goes its a win/win isn't it, both sides of the argument gain by it, don't they and if your that passionate about it it either way then the delay is worth it ?
macca
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I actually think the discussion on here has been quite sensible and balanced. I agree most have a different opinion to the OP however these views have been expressed respectfully. I have stated that I am not a great fan of the proposal but, I have seen and herd some benefits talking to local police and games council rangers.
The NPWS are dead against it but then again they get paid to shoot in parks.
Hopefully which ever way it goes it gets there for real reasons not just politics.
Jas
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Totally agree with JasonB and GanG,
I would think that most licensed shooters would fully understand what they have to lose these days by not being legal at all times, I know I do.
And as far as the road block goes its a win/win isn't it, both sides of the argument gain by it, don't they and if your that passionate about it it either way then the delay is worth it ?
macca
Macca the OPP at Lithgow is a win win I believe also, because no self respecting legal hunter would be transporting weapons inappropriately . Also with these things if you are doing the right thing and following the rules you have nothing to fear.
Jas
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The thing I object to is that the "against" argument will get bought into by the Vegans, anti gun coalition, Bambi brigade etc
I agree with this completely. These groups will get the air time as they sensationalise the augment and that is the sort of thing the media likes. I know lots of people that are licensed to carry firearms and they are all sensible people. One of them has been even been involved in culling deer in residential areas around southern Sydney and it is all very carefully controlled. Still doesn't make me feel comfortable with it though.
My objection to the shooting in national parks is based purely on the fact that my backyard literally borders a national park and the idea of a stray bullet hitting my house or worse is something I don't want to even entertain. If there are people in there shooting illegally and I am made aware of it I will be the first to ring the police.
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Agree with the comments re respectful debate, it is an important issue and it does merit serious discussion.
My objection to the shooting in national parks is based purely on the fact that my backyard literally borders a national park and the idea of a stray bullet hitting my house or worse is something I don't want to even entertain. If there are people in there shooting illegally and I am made aware of it I will be the first to ring the police.
Calling the cops is exactly what any hunter would ask of you.....poachers are rogues and are breaking the law, they ought be prosecuted.
Again I hark back to the Vic experience, but houses being shot etc just doesn't happen........and under the NSW model, the set up is very prescriptive, hunters have to book in to a forest, they are given maps stating where they can hunt, and issues like proximity to housing etc is factored in to the exclusion zones.
I can understand the anxiety, but the safety checks and balances are very stringent..............this arguement is 90% political with a few using it as a platform to grandstand, at grass roots the impact of hunting in NP is going to be miniscule for Joe Citizen and NPWS alike, most wont even know it is happening.
Looks like I suck at shutting up :laugh: its just such a significant topic for me at a personal level, and the half truths and emotive reporting of the issues really irks me. I do get the anxiety, but the checks and balances are pretty robust, if folks get time to investigate them properly.
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I would suggest the OP has concerns over the "illegal" hunters..........
One cannot blame him for having concerns over people who blatantly ignore the laws, running around with guns near campers.
You only have to have a look at the number of generator threads and noisy neighbour threads to realise how ignorant some people are.
Take one of these numpties who has no care for others, give them a firearm with no regard for safety law or license and its a recipe for disaster.
I see both sides of the argument, but no one can justify or accept the "illegal" use of firearms.
I certainly don't get the feeling the OP has copped out.
It appears his valid concern for what might happen when these things get out of hand. That's why he mentioned the police inspections.
I am a proficient firearm user. I grew up with them as a necessity. I now have no need for one, so I don't have one.
BUT I certainly wouldn't want someone using one in the vicinity of my family.
Hunter or not, anti or pro gun, I can't believe anyone would validly accept these morons running around our parks with a firearm.
I guess the political agendas outweigh the concerns. At least until one of the pollies family members get shot..................... :police:
I also refuse to believe the lobbyists who wanted guns in the parks had any bad intentions.
Its a sport that they want to enjoy. I accept there are bound to be some nutcases who wont follow the rules, but you get that in everything.
Check out the drink driving threads, the hoon threads, the speeding threads, etc etc.
There is always some idiot ruining it for everyone else.
Perhaps a national "beat an idiot" day would help...............(just joking - don't shoot me)
Rant rant rant etc etc.
Brian
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You only have to have a look at the number of generator threads and noisy neighbour threads to realise how ignorant some people are.
Or how intolerant people are >:D
Hunter or not, anti or pro gun, I can't believe anyone would validly accept these morons running around our parks with a firearm.
They are now, illegal hunting is rife in NP's. The legal hunters should be as you have claimed to be proficient and responsible...........
Brian
Jas
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Jas
Agreed, and I think that's what most people are concerned about......
And in regards to the "intolerance"............................. tolerance only stretches so far, as most threads as this site clearly show.
That is off topic though so I'll apologise, but the statement was made in context originally.
Cheers
Brian
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Hey briann, i thought it was fairly obvious the OP had concerns....enough to start a thread on it, even.... The whole point is that there are already people shooting in nat. parks. But by allowing licenced hunters in, these illegal hunters should gradually be discouraged from doing so, as the licenced hunters will be reporting any illegal activity so as not to jeopardise there pasttime.
The thing I object to is that the "against" argument will get bought into by the Vegans, anti gun coalition, Bambi brigade etc who don't want to see any hunting.
And a lot of these "anti-everything" types of people are the sort that support the legalising of drugs..... ??? ???
I don't get it....
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Im all for legal hunting pretty much anywhere. What all the anti hunting people forget to tell you is its been legal in State forrests for years with very few if any innocent parties injured.
I think these are the rules I read somewhere.
Before a legal gun owner can hunt in a forest they have to get permits and then they can only hunt in designated or sign posted areas. Hunters must have a bright orange piece of clothing on and must follow all the heavily regulated rules. Legal hunters can only shoot certain animals from a list of pest species, No they cant shoot roos and koala,s like some might have you believe.
Illegal hunters can shoot anywhere they like at anything they like dressed in anything they like as drunk or drugged as they like and nobody does anything.
Responsible Legal hunters despise illegal hunters so will be very quick to report any illegal or suspect activity they see. Your family will actually be safer with more legal hunters around you.
I get your logic but somehow I'm reminded of Charlton Heston's famous line after Columbine where he said that the massacre wouldn't have happened if every child was carrying a gun. My general concern is not just about illegal/legal hunting, it's more about the general proliferation and acceptance of guns into our culture (which is off-topic of course). Never any easy answers to these issues sadly.
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I get your logic but somehow I'm reminded of Charlton Heston's famous line after Columbine where he said that the massacre wouldn't have happened if every child was carrying a gun. My general concern is not just about illegal/legal hunting, it's more about the general proliferation and acceptance of guns into our culture (which is off-topic of course). Never any easy answers to these issues sadly.
And hence your true colours are shown, so put up an argument about gun control and march with the Anti gun coalition but don't go hiding behind another agenda, and making incorrect assumptions about hunting in NP. Again I have no issues with people who have an argument against firearms, it's there right do so.
Chartlon Heston was a nutter but he was also rigth another armed defender could have prevented the massacre, ( not child thats ridulous) same as an armed person could have prevented Port Arthur, what also could have prevented Port Arthur was if the police had acted on the advise of a gun store owner who reported Martin Bryrant for trying to obtain an firearm and who was reported to be in an "agitated" state! After port Arthur beside the squilions spent acquiring guns we were promised reform on mental health but didn't get that, hence the phsyopathic loons are still out there !
Remember the biggest massacre by a pshyopath in the US was not committed by a gun but by a guy with a tip truck, fertilizer & fuel !!
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I think shooting is very similar to religion.
If you dont believe or understand it you probably never will so the discussion is instantly coloured by your belief and therefore your response. :cheers:
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I think shooting is very similar to religion.
If you dont believe or understand it you probably never will so the discussion is instantly coloured by your belief and therefore your response. :cheers:
Yup
Dont like gay marriage - dont have one
Dont like religion - dont go to church
Dont like hunting - dont go
Dont like guns - dont own one
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Did anyone see the article in yesterdays Sunday Telegraph in Sydney about a state gun lobby or shooting association president and his deputy (can't remember which state) going through the courts at the moment for offences related to shooting, something like trespassing and other offences. They have had their firearms licenses suspended. I don't have the paper in front of me to quote word for word.
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They claim the offences were by someone else
Find it a bit tough to believe these guys would risk this sort of publicity for a goat?
Most against this hunting in Nat Parks think its going to happen in popular east coat beach tourist areas or the Ski fields.
If anyone has a link to State map with national parks on it the will see massive areas where almost no one goes (including NPWS staff) and are rife with feral animals and weeds. NPWS have far too much land to manage properly and without this type of assisted management they would be in safer hands being left as grazing country.
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Did anyone see the article in yesterdays Sunday Telegraph in Sydney about a state gun lobby or shooting association president and his deputy (can't remember which state) going through the courts at the moment for offences related to shooting, something like trespassing and other offences. They have had their firearms licenses suspended. I don't have the paper in front of me to quote word for word.
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/senior-hunting-official-charged-20130406-2hd2e.html# (http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/senior-hunting-official-charged-20130406-2hd2e.html#)
And if guilty they should be penalized. But as for disbanding the whole program well. Do we remove the police force or Aust Customs because some officers have been found guilty of criminal acts?
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Did anyone see the article in yesterdays Sunday Telegraph in Sydney about a state gun lobby or shooting association president and his deputy (can't remember which state) going through the courts at the moment for offences related to shooting, something like trespassing and other offences. They have had their firearms licenses suspended. I don't have the paper in front of me to quote word for word.
Sorry for the record I am not against access to NP's for licensed shooters involved in pest eradication and I am not a shooter either.
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OK, so I've copped a bit of a nailing for typing and running, or at least appearing to - fair cop. Apologies, but I have had my 1 and 3 yr olds today (Mon) and we were out yesterday, no time for sitting at the computer. Most of us have kids so hopefully someone will appreciate the extent to which they, especially at this age can occupy *all* your time! :)
As mentioned in another comment of mine, there are no easy answers to these questions and we live in an imperfect world - that is true. Not everyone is going to do the right thing regardless of law etc. In addition, I confess to having little deep understanding of the legislation and perhaps even less of the group at nohunting.com.au. Perhaps had I not jumped in so quickly and actually read everything on their site, I might have had a different approach. My bad. So there ;D
However - it is a legitimate debate which may to some extent affect members of this group more than the average Joe. As for me being the OP - frankly, who gives a #$@ what I think? As the OP, my views have no more/less legitimacy than those of anyone else other than I threw something up for discussion. Sadly it does look like I ran in, slapped someone on the arse and ran away... Apologies. It's great to have other views and I hope to get a more balanced perspective (when I have time to go through all the posts!). I try to be open to all sides, for what it's worth.
There was a memorable event which has probably helped shape my views - especially now as a dad - that involved some exposure to a potentially threatening gun/alcohol situation camping at Abercrombie Nat Pk some years ago (near Oberon). Some of you may have been there - you'd certainly remember this event.
Anyway, a bunch of blokes turned up at our campsite after midnight in utes with pigdogs, guns and stacks of grog (most of these blokes were pissed). All the kids in our group were asleep at this time and the boys were having a few and telling silly stories around the campfire as they arrived. These blokes (about 7 or so) imposed themselves on us and tensions rose fairly quickly, especially when one of them decided to wander through our campsite and wake up all the wives/kids shouting abuse. About 2-3 hrs later, they finally drove away firing their guns as they did.
At face value, probably not a terribly dangerous/exciting event but there were some fairly shaken dads and the general view that had things escalated - who knows? I'm assuming they were shooting illegally, so this debate is probably less about them in honesty, but one can't help forming the view that had there been no guns there at all, perhaps a broken nose and a few black eyes were the worst that could have happened (unless some pissed off idiot drove through our tents...).
How would you apprehend such blokes anyway? You'd have to assume there was a possibility they'd defend themselves with whatever means they had available (including a booze-diminished intellect). For interest's sake, how would law abiding hunters deal with them, given that they would be unimpressed by such delinquency?
So where does this leave me? At this point I'm still trying to form a more balanced view - and yes, I have enjoyed shooting on many occasions, including a few rounds of an AK47, a 44, shotties etc. It's a good feeling to hold such power...
Hope I've somehow restored some OP dignity and fairness! For me at this point - maybe I'll say the jury is out on this one... It is good to hear other sides to it I must say.
Cheers and thanks,
Dave (...perhaps a little more confused than convinced now...)
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Hi Dave,
Did you report the incident to police and take note of any rego numbers,this is how I would of handled it as I have done in the past. As a licensed hunter I take a dim view of anyone doing the wrong thing when my hobby is put at risk. Myself and a couple of mates fronted a group of young blokes out spotlighting of the roads around Bacchus Marsh a few years ago ended up in court with the one bloke who had a licence losing it and copping a decent fine as well as the others.
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Anyway, a bunch of blokes turned up at our campsite after midnight in utes with pigdogs, guns and stacks of grog (most of these blokes were pissed). All the kids in our group were asleep at this time and the boys were having a few and telling silly stories around the campfire as they arrived. These blokes (about 7 or so) imposed themselves on us and tensions rose fairly quickly, especially when one of them decided to wander through our campsite and wake up all the wives/kids shouting abuse. About 2-3 hrs later, they finally drove away firing their guns as they did.
A terrible story mate but that's not hunting, and not anyone that I have ever encountered in a lifetime of hunting on public and private land.
The world has more than its fair share of assholes, some drive cars and 4x4 too............what those blokes did is pig ignorant and illegal, but they are not typical by any means. Idiots like that deserve to be prosecuted and clearly should not have access to firearms, but if I was a betting man its unlikely they were licensed in the first place, and they are not the type of folks that will jump the hoops required for a NP permit.
re the game council officer that has been charged, that does not always equate with guilty in every instance, and if he is actually found guilty then he deserves the full wrath of the law, but it does not mean the rest of us are criminals, nor that the concept is inherently bad, just that one bloke has let his position go to his head and like many other public officials has been doing the wrong thing to feather his own nest.
This is the great problem with the lack of accountability these days..........the assumption that if 1 bloke does the wrong thing it must be bad and banned, rather than saying what he did was a crime and he deserved to be punnished.
*climbing off soap box in search of another beer* care to join me? :)
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Petty naive view in my opinion. I am not really an avid hunter however I do work in a compliance role that over laps into NP's and State Forrests. I also have NPWS compliance powers.
I have seen legal shooting in state Forrests have some positive impacts.
Firstly you are kidding yourself if you think hunting and shooting in NP's in not occurring now. It has been forever and the people who do it are taking risks and are uncontrolled. They also have a lot at stake and are willing to do whatever it takes to evade detection and capture in many instances.
Legal shooting is controlled, numbers are limited and the activity is confined to certain areas. The guys that undertake this have to be above board at all levels and hold specific licences and certifications. If they stuff up they loose their gear and access.
What has occurred locally, Bathurst and Lithgow, is that the incidence of illegal hunting has decreased with the introduction of the enthusiasts. This is because there are now more eyes in the Forrest and these enthusiasts report the illegal hunters to authorities to protect their sport. Previously there were no enthusiasts and no eyes in the Forrest.
I don't agree with the policy, but all of the scare mongering is miss guided, Because the illegal hunters are going to be there and probably in greater numbers with or without the introduction of legal hunting.
A well controlled system of legal hunters keeping and eye on things may not be all doom and gloom, and to be honest you are unlikely to notice they are about, much the same as you don't see the illegal ones that have been doing it for a millennium now.
Jas
Quote, scaremongering ect, ect ? Really ? As an ex military type, I know how far a 7.62 mm round travels before it's kinetic energy is spent. How many alleged 'hunters' know how far their rounds will travel before they are no longer a threat ? How can any such 'hunter' be sure there are no humans in the direct path of their expended round ?
In the U.S. they have designated hunting seasons, wherein highly visible clothing is worn by hunters, despite this fact, there are reports every year of hundreds of people,( including the hunters themselves of being SHOT). so CLEARLY, FOR ANYONE TO CLAIM NO ONE WILL BE HURT IS LUDICROUS and a fallicy.
I have seen no operational suggestions of how this sytem is supposed to work, it's as if the public is simply to accept what they are told.
How come every firearm firing range in Australia has rules of operation and flags to warn the public of such activities, where here again, we see nothing.
How are campers or bushwalkers to know they will not be shot by a round from one of these alleged safe 'hunters' ?
I myself AND family, have been on one occasion in the path of such rounds whilst encamped and have no desire to ever be in such a position ever again.
Rifles and indiscriminate rounds flying thru bushland and campers/walkers ect DO NOT MIX, never have and never will.
In closing, if this suggestion ever gets the green light, I'd be writting a declaration to the members of parliament who passed it, that I'd be holding them personaly accountable if ever any of my family were the recipients of such a round.
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In closing, if this suggestion ever gets the green light [snip]
To the best of my knowledge, it already has the green light. It's just in a holding pattern.
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yup scaremongering...........Victoria has had public land hunting for years and the safety record is excellent, better than AFL, NRL, fishing and many other sports for injuries and fatalities per man hour participated...............come and spend Saturday arvo in my emergency department and tell me that football is good for you :)
3 accidental shootings in 55 years in Vic forests..........I have personally cared for that many young men dying from injuried sustained falling off their bikes!
The risk is low and the proposed plan is well designed if you care to look at it in detail with an open mind. As for ex-military types I know a bloke who was a pay clerk in the army and he was lucky to know what end was the dangerous one, just being ex military does not make you a firearms expert.
Good luck making a politician accountable :laugh:
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And this is why i hunt with a bow .........
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pay homage (licence) and all is well, other wise you are a ???? . :police:
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? As an ex military type, I know how far a 7.62 mm round travels before it's kinetic energy is spent. How many alleged 'hunters' know how far their rounds will travel before they are no longer a threat ? How can any such 'hunter' be sure there are no humans in the direct path of their expended round ?
Any round (bar a 50cal) would be lucky to travel 100 meters before its stopped by a tree. A bullet from a true hunter won't be the one that accidentally hurts/kills someone, it will be the one from a drunken redneck shooting signs and cans. Many years of hound hunting and stalking deer in VIC I was lucky to see anyone on the bush tracks ( not including other hunters) let alone in the the scrub. Who else in their right mind would be bush pre dawn in near freezing weather
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Who else in their right mind would be bush pre dawn in near freezing weather
You got it, qlddsl
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Gees - a day with the kids and I'm stuffed. Finally I've got a moment to read and respond...
No wonder my ears were burning the last few days. ;D
G'day deldridg. You don't think the copper might have been justifying the operation? "Yeah mate, we've caught heaps. It's been TOTALLY worth it....". You also claim to not be a total wowser, but i dunno whether you noticed the website says NO hunting, not safe hunting, or more careful hunting, or less unneccessary hunting.
Naah - the copper seemed a bit more level headed than that. As for the website - I confessed earlier to not having read it closely - agree this is shocking form, even by my dodgy standards... (I'll claim baby brains on this one!) ;D
I wonder if every time he gets breath tested and asks the copper how many DUI's they've caught, he feels politically motivated to go to a anti-drink driving rally?...
'Cause as we ALL know, heaps and heaps more people die every year from drink driving than firearm accidents.......
Yep - that's me Boxhead. Nice one. Both poignant and witty but I'm smiling... :)
I would suggest the OP has concerns over the "illegal" hunters..........
One cannot blame him for having concerns over people who blatantly ignore the laws, running around with guns near campers.
You only have to have a look at the number of generator threads and noisy neighbour threads to realise how ignorant some people are.
Take one of these numpties who has no care for others, give them a firearm with no regard for safety law or license and its a recipe for disaster.
etc.
Thanks Brian - see an earlier post which perhaps explains an influencing situation that I've been through (not to mention being the target of an armed hold-up as a 19yr old in Sydney; losing a family friend to a rifle cleaning accident in his house and a few other scrapes here and there).
My views are being further shaped by the contributions to this thread and it's great to have good honest and mostly, positive conversation as with anything, it's very easy to be guided by your own limited experience and then form one-sided views - as I've probably done here.
Yes, the thought of illegal hunting, especially mixed with booze in proximity of my family scares the carp out of me. Perhaps we'll never eradicate this and maybe - just maybe, with the right legislation and resources to make sure legal hunting can be integrated safely with NP use, then illegal hunters will decline. There are a lot of maybes there and sitting above all of this is the general idea that more firearms = more issues, regardless. Is that a fair position??
And hence your true colours are shown, so put up an argument about gun control and march with the Anti gun coalition but don't go hiding behind another agenda, and making incorrect assumptions about hunting in NP. Again I have no issues with people who have an argument against firearms, it's there right do so.
Chartlon Heston was a nutter but he was also rigth another armed defender could have prevented the massacre, ( not child thats ridulous) same as an armed person could have prevented Port Arthur, what also could have prevented Port Arthur was if the police had acted on the advise of a gun store owner who reported Martin Bryrant for trying to obtain an firearm and who was reported to be in an "agitated" state! After port Arthur beside the squilions spent acquiring guns we were promised reform on mental health but didn't get that, hence the phsyopathic loons are still out there !
Remember the biggest massacre by a pshyopath in the US was not committed by a gun but by a guy with a tip truck, fertilizer & fuel !!
OK achjimmy - your assertion is not 100% correct about me and the anti gun mob mate but maybe I can't blame you for saying it. I too enjoy a bit of shooting and am not too bad a shot (most of my uncles are hunters but all shoot vermin on properties, and very successfully too).
Hopefully I've been a bit clearer on my position (which is of little relevance to anyone) in other rubbish I've spouted on this thread of mine. ;D
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So in my mind the debate seems to boil down to a few points as follows (off the top of my head):
- a lot of normal people enjoy shooting as a legitimate form of recreation (this I perfectly understand),
- a lot of people are prepared to do this illegally in places they shouldn't be (I've witnessed this myself),
- there are limited resources to police/enforce the law as it applies to them so we can assume it will continue,
- however, properly regulated and managed legal hunting in concert with harsh penalties for abuse could effectively reduce such illegal activities,
- there is confusion (I have it) as to the actual proposals at hand to open NPs to hunting, (so I for one will now get up to speed),
- there is the presiding concern about numbers of guns in a society and the relationship to the number of serious issues (I've spent enough time in the USA),
- however, the extent to which these proposals will feed a negative trend is perhaps unknown (at least to me) and may even have a net positive,
- perhaps the main issue is in the effective governing and well resourced policing of hunting such that my family and I can venture out into the bush with the confidence that we know what's going on and aren't going to be endangered by a well intentioned legal bullet (or arrow etc.). Clearly we can't do much about the illegal ones...
The sticking point really has to be the resourcing of this all. I have had a number of related conversations with a lot of NPWS field ops who have grave doubts about the legislation, given the already harsh cuts to their resources and what it will mean to them.
So there it is - my views are evolving and hopefully this thread has added some value! Thanks for reading this far... would have loved to respond to everyone but am v. time poor.
Finally...
...*climbing off soap box in search of another beer* care to join me? :)
Damned straight mate - I'd be there in a flash. Amazing how 2 kids (= total 24kg) can trash a bloke in a single day! :cheers:
Cheers,
Dave
PS. As far as I can remember, the blokes who turned up to hooliganise our camp those years ago were 'introduced' to the police. Not sure what happened to them.
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This is me on private property. 8)
I would never do this in a NP unless I was engaged by NPWS to do so, which is something I would never do anyway. Besides by the time they had taken you through their WHS briefs and other briefs the sun would be going down. ;D
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I would never do this in a NP unless I was engaged by NPWS to do so, which is something I would never do anyway.
Entirely your call to exercise the right or not..........but don't forget the other guy that might want to :)
Maybe my perspective is entirely screwy on this subject having lived, 4 wheeled, hunted, camped, bushwalked, and enjoyed life in the outdoors with the wife and 4 kids, all in a state where it is standard operating procedure to hunt public land, and do so without the embuggerance of bureaucrats and meddlers to a great extent.
<edit to correct myself>
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Entirely your call to exercise the right or not..........but don't forget the other guy that might want to :)
I suppose i am spoiled with private property to roam on so for the shooter who doesn't and has the opportunity to help NPWS out I am for that. I would expect NPWS would close a park before a shoot in any case....i would hope.
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G'day again deldridg. Nice response mate. If, after all your research and investigation, you still come to the same conclusion, well, I don't think anyone on here will knock you for having an informed opinion mate.
As for 24 kg's of kids; i've got around 100 kg's of 'em. 17 yr old and 15 yr old. It gets worse. Maybe not physically, but psychologically! ;D
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I suppose i am spoiled with private property to roam on so for the shooter who doesn't and has the opportunity to help NPWS out I am for that. I would expect NPWS would close a park before a shoot in any case....i would hope.
Its all in the frame of reference I guess.........I would still make the observation it is public land, and you are not helping out the NPWS, you are exercising your chosen lifestyle as you should rightly entitled to do as a law abiding citizen of this country. :)
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And this is why i hunt with a bow .........
Me too.
But not on any State Land or National Park in Qld because it is still illegal...
Bill
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But there's been grumblings about controlling them. And with incidents like the following its hard to argue against it, again the dickhead element or people not taught to respect them.
Last year I was at a kids AFL match up in the mountains, field surround by bush with homes behind that. A few Arrows started appearing or being found around, it was bizarre because no body saw any turn up and I still wasnt convinced they wernt there from the day before. One was found n the playing field and a couple of kids swore it wasn't there in first quarter!
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G'day again deldridg. Nice response mate. If, after all your research and investigation, you still come to the same conclusion, well, I don't think anyone on here will knock you for having an informed opinion mate.
As for 24 kg's of kids; i've got around 100 kg's of 'em. 17 yr old and 15 yr old. It gets worse. Maybe not physically, but psychologically! ;D
Hi mate - cheers and thanks. As it turned out, I ended up not attending the rally and decided to catch up with a mate for lunch instead! :D
Did anyone from here go? Was it the usual dreadlock mob or perhaps more representative of the community? (PC caveat... nothing wrong with dreadlocks - hopefully my comment will be self-evident).
While my views have certainly moved somewhat on the complete banning of hunting in NPs as such, I'm almost 100% certain that there will be insufficient attention and resources allocated to ensuring a good overall outcome. One thing that has been highlighted is the scale of illegal hunting activity and hopefully something will change on that front, whatever policies are adopted.
It was great to get different views and next time I'll be a bit more read up and balanced before launching into a "thou shalt not" thread! ;D
As for 100kg's of youthful force - best of luck mate. At least now you won't have to Google anything - they've already thought through all the answers... It's all ahead of me, and mine are both redheads with wills to match...
Cheers and off to dream about our next camping holiday!
Dave