MySwag.org The Off-road Camper Trailer Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: grafy82 on August 08, 2012, 02:54:05 PM
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G'day all.
I've just been to the local chain specialist and picked up some 13mm chain and a couple of shackles for my draw bar. Question is, do I weld them straight to the draw bar (pic2) or should I weld some thicker plate there first before welding on the chain (pic3), just for extra strength.Or is that nor really necessary?Any info or expierence will be great.
Cheers
Wes
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How thick is the drawbar RHS? I don't think I can recall ever seeing a plate welded on to strengthen the area, but it couldn't hurt. I would make that plate larger still in that case.
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Is it high tensile chain? New Australia wide regs stipulate high tensile. Dunno if Qld has adopted the regs tho.
Anyway I would just weld them to the drawbar.
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The draw bar steel is 3mm. The chains are lashing grade, I'm not sure if its high tensile or not. I hadn't really ever seen plate welded there either but I wonder if it would be worth doing seeing as though the chains are 13mm thick and the draw bar is only 3mm thick.
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With all due respect mate, if you're asking these questions you're not qualified to do the job. Spend $100-00 and get an experienced welder to do it. Not much to spend when you consider the value of your car, trailer and possibly somebodyelse's car/life, it's a SAFETY CHAIN for goodness sake ???
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grafy,
I'd go straight to the draw bar. Never seen the brace/backing plate on any trailer. By the looks of it you have a plate welded to the 'open' end of you RHS so i don't think it would peel back the RHS wall under load. Have you got 2 chains? One chain for each side? (cant remember the pic) If so you are halving the load as well. But...like Jules said...can't hurt to weld on the other plate either.
1HDT
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With all due respect mate, if you're asking these questions you're not qualified to do the job. Spend $100-00 and get an experienced welder to do it. Not much to spend when you consider the value of your car, trailer and possibly somebodyelse's car/life, it's a SAFETY CHAIN for goodness sake ???
Sheez, that's a bit harsh. A simple question and some educated answers and he will be qualified or at least informed about the job. Folks build trailers all the time, at least this one will have been well considered.
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Sheez, that's a bit harsh. A simple question and some educated answers and he will be qualified or at least informed about the job. Folks build trailers all the time, at least this one will have been well considered.
Not meaning to be harsh, just seems strange to me when people try to do things like this that ultimately can cause a lot of grief and cost a lot more than was initially saved if it goes pear shaped :)
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Grafy82 not sure if anyone has mentioned it or not but if the chain is zinc coated you will have to grind it away before you weld.
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Thanks for all the reply's. Xcvator, no harsh feelings, I have no issues with laying down a good weld, I was more interested in the loads that may be applied to it under duress and if it was a spot worth beefing up or not. Yes, I did buy enough to do 2 chains and the ends of the 100x50 are capped off.
I may think about it too much sometimes I guess.
Cheers
Wes
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I drilled through draw bar and used D shackles.Draw bar is 5mm thick.
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Just make sure you connect them to the car ;D Brother in law copped a $ 350 fine yesterday " because he had lost the pin out of the D"
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The chain has to have an Australian Standard stamped into it as well. When I had mine rego'd they guy said that was the most common reason for failing rego inspection.
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After building trailers for a couple of years i have never seen a chain not welded straight to the draw bar 3mm rhs is a lot stronger than you think and will be unlikley to tear out from a welded chain just check the relevant regs for chain specs. :cheers:
Jim
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I drilled through draw bar and used D shackles.Draw bar is 5mm thick.
I'm pretty sure regs say chains must be welded.
Majority of trailers I've seen have the chains welded to the draw bar. I did and mines 3mm RHS too.
Word of caution, careful where you attach them. This is how I did mine and they foul on the hitch if you do real tight turns.
Should have hung them downwards.
(http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv260/kylarama/PC020018.jpg)
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Just as an alternative if you were to weld a plate on you could shackle both ends of the chain. I have 2 trailers set up like this and carry an extra longer chain in the toolbox, the chains I normally use are the perfect length for my car but dads car requires longer chains.
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Have a look at Jayco camper chains and you'll see they weld them horizontally to the bottom of the closed drawbar, bearing in mind they'll easily handle a 1.2T and up loaded camper range. Why would you weld them to the bottom? Because in the event it jumps off the hitch you want those chains lifting from the lowest point and crossing them may also keep the loose drawbar as high as possible if the hitch catches the cross. WRT different tugs I've recognised my Jayco has larger links than yours which allows a too long chain to easily be doubled back to the towbar shackles to keep the extra links from hanging down. Who wants to carry extra chain and shackles?They can't snag when turning either you'll also note from a previous comment. Jayco have worked it all out over the years for anyone who wants to copy them.
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Just as an alternative if you were to weld a plate on you could shackle both ends of the chain. I have 2 trailers set up like this and carry an extra longer chain in the toolbox, the chains I normally use are the perfect length for my car but dads car requires longer chains.
The Vehicle Bulletin for the building of trailers states that it is illegal to shackle or bolt chains to the draw bar, they must be welded along 2/3rds of the chain link.
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Ok didn't realise that.
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The Vehicle Bulletin for the building of trailers states that it is illegal to shackle or bolt chains to the draw bar, they must be welded along 2/3rds of the chain link.
Then that also explains why my Jayco chain is 10mm thick with 72 X 37mm (outside dims) links. Use smaller thicker chain when you have to weld 2/3 of a link and you're left with a tight eye there as well as struggling to double the excess back together on towbar shackles.
Before you start something always look at what the commercial boys do and then think carefully about why they do it that way and what rules and regs they have to comply with. The latter may not be immediately obvious but it's always there in their mix.
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The Vehicle Bulletin for the building of trailers states that it is illegal to shackle or bolt chains to the draw bar, they must be welded along 2/3rds of the chain link.
Does the bulletin state how long the chain must be.
I was considering cutting the second link leaving the first welded link and using a shackle to attach a short length when towing. My reasoning behind this was to provide another deterent, albiet small, for thieves so they couldn't tow it by the chain unless of course they had some themselves.
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The regs state how much of a link has to be welded. The chain does have to be stamped. It is all in the regs which are an Australian Stnadard but does not seem to be enforced in every state. It is enforced big time here in Tasmania and a lot of campers/ boat trailers from the mainland get knocked back when trying to get registered here.
Friends bought a brand new galvenised boat trailer from QLD from a known builder and when they tried to register it here it didn't pass because the safety chain was not stamped. Had to cut the chain off and reweld the correct one on. The builder was questioned and there statement was "not an issue up here, must be a Tasmanian thing". When it was pointed out to them it was an Australia wide standard they were told they wsholud have checked it when they bought it.
Just my 2 cents worth.
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In WA they can be shackled onto the drawbar. And there only needs to be one chain these days but it must be load rated and have its rating stamped on the links
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Done. Thanks for the reply's ;D ;D Decided to fill weld the inside and front edges to stop any moisture/salt/mud etc. getting in and rusting
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Dont know if this is in another thread but PDF of Bulding Small Trailers National Code of Practice on this website http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/vsb1/index.aspx (http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/vsb1/index.aspx)
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Done. Thanks for the reply's ;D ;D Decided to fill weld the inside and front edges to stop any moisture/salt/mud etc. getting in and rusting
I think anyone questioning your welding skills can go :cheers:
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I think anyone questioning your welding skills can go :cheers:
I agree the welds are sound :) However I do not think that chain meets the national standard! I am confident it is safe and strong enough for its intended purpose but it doesnt appear to have the stamping it requires?? Not that it is any of my business mind you, I just thought Id mention it ;D
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Hey DannyG.
Mate, do you know what grade of chain meets the AS 4177.4-2004 as outlined in the building code? The chain I used is stamped with 4344-9.0 which is HiLite lashing grade 70 rated to 9.0 tonne. I was searching for a couple of hours last night trying to find out if it meets AS 4177.4-2004 but I couldn't find anywhere as to which stamped/grade of chain relates to that standard. If you or anybody else knows for sure please let me know because as far as I know, the chain I used is the strongest you can go before getting into the T80 grade alloy chains which are not suitable for welding. Any info appreciated.
Cheers
Wes
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some excerpts from AS 4177:
STANDARDS AUSTRALIA
Australian Standard
Caravan and light trailer towing components
Part 4 Safety chains up to 3500 kg capacity
This Standard specifies requirements for safety chains for use with trailers and caravans of
up to 3.5 t aggregate trailer mass. The safety chains are designated according to their
loading capacities based on the aggregate trailer mass.
A method for determining the strength of safety chain is given in Appendix A.
Safety chains shall be provided in four designations, according to the aggregate trailer
mass. The designations and the corresponding aggregate trailer masses shall be as shown in
Table 1.
TABLE 1
DESIGNATIONS
Chain size designation kg Aggregate trailer mass kg
1 000 0 to 1 000
1 600 Up to 1 600
2 500 Up to 2 500
3 500 Up to 3 500
The chain shall be permanently and legibly marked with the manufacturer’s or importer’s
identification and the digits 4177 (i.e. the number of this Australian Standard), followed by
a hyphen and the first two digits of the chain designation (i.e. 4177-25 represents 2500 kg
due to manufacturing limitation). The marking shall be repeated at intervals not exceeding
4 links and the characters on the links shall be not less than 1.5 mm high for chains less
than 8 mm, and not less than 2 mm high for chains 8 mm and above.
Your Chain would seem to exceed the relevant AS specifications by quite a bit as its rated (and stamped) to 9 Ton, against the Trailer Safety Chain requirement of Rated (and stamped) to 3.5 Ton max. Its actually manafactured to the Higher Specification Standard AS4344 -
Cargo Restraint Systems - Transport Chain & Components.
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some excerpts from AS 4177:
STANDARDS AUSTRALIA
Australian Standard
Caravan and light trailer towing components
Part 4 Safety chains up to 3500 kg capacity
This Standard specifies requirements for safety chains for use with trailers and caravans of
up to 3.5 t aggregate trailer mass. The safety chains are designated according to their
loading capacities based on the aggregate trailer mass.
A method for determining the strength of safety chain is given in Appendix A.
Safety chains shall be provided in four designations, according to the aggregate trailer
mass. The designations and the corresponding aggregate trailer masses shall be as shown in
Table 1.
TABLE 1
DESIGNATIONS
Chain size designation kg Aggregate trailer mass kg
1 000 0 to 1 000
1 600 Up to 1 600
2 500 Up to 2 500
3 500 Up to 3 500
The chain shall be permanently and legibly marked with the manufacturer’s or importer’s
identification and the digits 4177 (i.e. the number of this Australian Standard), followed by
a hyphen and the first two digits of the chain designation (i.e. 4177-25 represents 2500 kg
due to manufacturing limitation). The marking shall be repeated at intervals not exceeding
4 links and the characters on the links shall be not less than 1.5 mm high for chains less
than 8 mm, and not less than 2 mm high for chains 8 mm and above.
Your Chain would seem to exceed the relevant AS specifications by quite a bit as its rated (and stamped) to 9 Ton, against the Trailer Safety Chain requirement of Rated (and stamped) to 3.5 Ton max. Its actually manafactured to the Higher Specification Standard AS4344 -
Cargo Restraint Systems - Transport Chain & Components.
There is the relevant info you require, your chain will be strong enough to pull your tug and trailer in half ;D All legal as far as I can read. Now I might go and check my chains!
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Once again the swaggers deliver. Thanks again for the help guys
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As a kid. about 14, i was at a mates place and him and i watched his dad weld a new safety chain to the box trailer.
The trailer was mostly rust and flaking paint and he put on an old hunk of rusty chain before hooking the whole lot up to the old AP5 Valiant wagon.
Halfway to the dump, the trailer pops off the hitch, cause the dummy didn't tighten up the old wind down nut on the hitch.
The racket a loaded box trailer can make at 60kph is deafening. When it wasn't trying to roar off into the scrub, it was punching the f#*k out of the rusty tailgate on the ol Val.
I still remember the tailgate window spraying glass over the back of the Val as the now; trailer from hell; continued its onslaught onto the now helpless Val.
As the mates old man was almost stopped, the trailer made one last attempt to kill the Val before it popped back out of the tailgate, broke the weld on the previously welded "safety chain" and then realised "I'm free", so the box trailer mounted the footpath and ran into a bus stop seat.
The mate's ol man, gets the three of us to help him put the trailer back on the Val, this time tightening the hitch before getting the hell outta there.
This time, no safety chain and no lights, due to the wiring being ripped from the plug.
For the next few klm to the dump, the ol boy is muttering, bloody faulty welding rods, that's what it was, faulty welding rods.
Oh, the tailgate on the Val was way beyond repair too, as it had its share of rust in it before being beaten and flogged like a red headed step child.
Hey Grafy82, nice welding.
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Usually takes an hour with a grinder to make my welds look that good :cheers:
Great job!
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Usually takes an hour with a grinder to make my welds look that good :cheers:
Great job!
Body filler is quicker...
Wonder what it's structural properties are like?
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Looks aren't everything. Its all about penetration >:D
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Looks aren't everything. Its all about penetration >:D
Totally agree there. I'm no boily by any means (taught myself so far) but I've seen some welds that look OK but have snapped off with little force due to poor penetration. I did a 3 run on that chain to fill the gap and get a nice big bead. The amps were up high enough to get good peno but without any undercutting. I'm confident it will hold.
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My drawbar is made of ali so welding chains on is not an option so there must be rules for ali drawbars. The chains are fixed by a 12mm round rod which is welded across under the front of the drawbar with the chain slipped on b4 welding.
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In WA they can be shackled onto the drawbar. And there only needs to be one chain these days but it must be load rated and have its rating stamped on the links
I got knocked back on the rego inspection in Midland because the chain was shackled to the draw bar - they must have changed the laws in the last 10 years
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And the one chain thing in WA is only up to a 2ton gross weight. Over that you must still have 2 chains, aswell as other things.
Shane
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As a kid. about 14, i was at a mates place and him and i watched his dad weld a new safety chain to the box trailer.
The trailer was mostly rust and flaking paint and he put on an old hunk of rusty chain before hooking the whole lot up to the old AP5 Valiant wagon....
Sighhhh.......those were the days....
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Just as an aside to throw a spanner in the works so to speak, I noticed this on another thread and thought about reading this thread last month.
Notice the trailer safety chains are bolted on by the manufacturer............ All to confusing if you ask me.
Weld is the law......... no bolting......... no shackles????????????????????????????????????????????????
Link is Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSBGS1BETlc#ws)
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Reviving an old thread.
My CT was manufactured in 2009. Does it have to have the newer 4177-25 rated safety chains fitted?
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Reviving an old thread.
My CT was manufactured in 2009. Does it have to have the newer 4177-25 rated safety chains fitted?
That's something I'd like to know as well.
Mines a 2009 Tvan, as from the factory.
I've checked the chains, no marks, clean as and galvanized as well.
Plus, if you weld hi tensile stuff, it changes the properties of the link that's welded.
Just sayin, I'd like the understandable answer. Not the abuse, ok.
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My understanding that if your trailer is already registered it is okay with the chain/s on it. Also the chains can be attached to a plate welded to the draw bar by a hammer lock but not a shackle or bolts.
Cheers
GregP