MySwag.org The Off-road Camper Trailer Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: McGirr on April 20, 2012, 01:39:30 PM
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Interesting reading on another thread that on a brand new Patrol that people recommend up grading the suspension straight away.
I have driven 4 wds to the Cape with standard suspension and also with monroe suspension and have never had a problem. I have never had any cruiser lifted. On last years Cape trip we had 11 cars and yes some had fully upgraded suspension but others had factory suspension and no problems at all. In 2009 we had 18 cars on the trip.
Yes it depends how you drive, what weight is being carried and what you are towing but all I have ever done was add air bags in the rear to keep the back level.
If you want to lift the height of the vehicle yes you have no choice but to install other suspension for this.
This year I will be taking my cruiser up with the original suspension and just airbags.
The standard suspension on toyotas, patrols, mitsubishis etc can handle the otl taking it slowly.
I understand some people tackle tougher tracks but on the norm most dont.
Mark
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I understand some people tackle tougher tracks but on the norm most dont.
Mark
That is why.
I'm in a 4WD Club and the "norm" is at least a 50mm lift, lets most members get to places they couldn't otherwise.
I have a GU IV Patrol with a lift because I tackle some pretty rugged country, and even with my 70mm lift I still occasionally "drag" my bottom! The upside is we can go places safely that most "standard" Patrols would struggle or incur some damage getting to.
All horses for courses I think. If you don't want to tackle those tracks that demand above average clearance then standard suspension may well be all that is needed. For me I'm glad I have my setup.
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Yes it depends how you drive, what weight is being carried and what you are towing but all I have ever done was add air bags in the rear to keep the back level.
Its personal preference. Its like comparing - why do some people spend $8000 on a pr of Recaros in a new 4wd with 100klms on it...
Some like more comfortable rides, and invest in that straight away... as Tim said, some people double that up with a 50mm or a lift of some size. IMWO, its a good idea with so much plastic tupperware hanging down so low on modern 4wds that is ridiculously expensive to replace when it gets ripped off on normal tracks.. Look at Patrol plastic bumper corners, hit them, the tail lights pop out and dont stay in again. Your up for a zillion $ on a plastic corner to fix it. or 2 cable ties and look like a wreck from new.
If your towing or going remote where its corrigated again personal preference, I wouldnt do it on standard drinking straw sized shocks. Maybe changing them before a problem occurs.
example of Koni 90's V stock GU.
(http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb165/trackie389/4wding/rshock.jpg)(http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb165/trackie389/4wding/fshock.jpg)
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All horses for courses I think.
True.
With the +50mm suspension under the Pathy, I have about the same underbody clearance as my father-in-law's Courier dual cab on standard springs. So there's that to consider as well.
Also, the new shocks are at least double the diameter of the old standard ones, so will stand up to corrugations, etc, much better. Standard Patrol/Cruiser shocks may very well be this size (or bigger) to start with, but not everyone is that lucky.
Cheers!
Matto :)
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In my D22 I replaced the OEM with a full dobinsons Kit. I mostly did this for the lift. However the ride difference day to day was significant, more comfortable, handled better and cornered better.
I think once you start adding steel bars and winches and perhaps a second battery in the front you are asking a lot for the OEM springs.
In answer to the original question, not sure its 'that bad' just not sure its designed to do what many of us ask it to.
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I lifted the Cruiser 50mm 2 years ago, only because it was the same price as standard ride height. The springs and shocks needed replacing as it was sitting 25mm lower than original height due to sag over its 12 years of life. Would I change on a brand new one? Depends on the car really, the hilux I drive as a work car needs greater clearance than standard due to it's long wheelbase, however approach and departure angles are fine.
Again, I think it's horses for courses really.
:cheers: Cracka
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Similar reason with us. Like to be able to go anywhere, within reason. 50 mm lift made a huge difference with ground clearance. If we see a track that looks interesting, we go along it. Even made a big difference on sand when driving in deep wheel ruts.
So if you never want to go real off road, then stick with the standard suspension.
Kevin
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My 2006 Navara lasted me approx 40,000k's before the rear springs and all 4 shocks were toast.
It had never done any 4wd tracks in that time ( few gravel roads was it) and there was no overloading or heavy weight in the back for any length of time.
I then installed Tough Dog springs (50mm lift), heavy duty torsion bars and shocks, they lasted me just about as long before they needed replacing as well.
I now have EFS Springs (again a 50mm lift) with greasable shackles and RAW Nitro shocks so hopefully they last a little bit longer.
On a side note the original tyres were junk and needed replacing about 30,000k's...
Bill and Morag
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I'm in the 'standard-is-ok' group. I have a 100 with standard suspension (+airbags) that has been to the cape and a few other places (fraser, moreton etc) without hassle.
I wouldn't mind a lift but not having it doesn't restrict you from getting to many 'normal' places (definition of 'normal' could vary for each person obviously!!).
I had an R50 pathfinder that I had lifted - but despite me getting 'comfort' springs it was far too firm around town. So that's also making me a bit nervous about changing the cruiser.
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That question depends a lot on where you live and drive all the time. I changed my shockies and steering damper to Old Man Emu just after getting the car, and changed the raer springs to Rockcrawler 400kg, and it has stood the test of time. I am doing the same to my new vehicle.
Of course I drive for over 300km just to get to the bitumen, so my suspension has to be able to handle a lot of constant punishment.
Regards
Tjupurula
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The benefits of a lift depends on the car I think. A cruiser/patrol with live axles doesn't benefit as much from a suspension lift as something like a Pajero or Prado because it doesn't matter how high you lift the cruiser the diffs stay the same. You improve rampover and approach/departure angles but not clearance. Only way you can do that is with bigger tyres.
A Pajero or Prado though gain all the lift in ground clearance due to the independent suspension, plus the improvement in rampover and approach/departure angles.
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I reckon if you do a lot of sand work a lift is a must.
I took my Hilux to Fraser Is in 09 with standard sus & it was like driving a Bulldozer ahh the joys of IFS with a standard setup
The extra 2" makes a difference but as you can see in the pic I could have done with a bit more at Cape Flattery last year ???
Cheers :cheers:
Frank
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With a front bar, winch and dual batteries, under braking the Prado nose dived like a pig hence I replaced the suspension form new.
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I think its worth splitting it in two.
If you need a lift then obviously you need new springs and dampers. Whether you 'really' need a lift is another question. Some do, most dont.
If you dont have bullbars etc on it then the std new suspension is normally great and has been tuned by engineers with far more experience than the majority of the aftermarket suspension people (most not all). Toyota are normall very good, nissan not so for some strange reason, particularly the commercial range. Its always worth a chuckle when you hear things like 'shes real hard mate - bloody beauty' and then they wonder why it rattles itself to death on corrugations and has less traction than std as its lost all semblance of suppleness.
The main thing that is hard on suspensions is corrugations that fatigue the dampers. This is where the remote canister dampers come into their own.
Something like your 100series would be great with a change to bilstein dampers once the originals get old. Combined with the rear bags it would be great.
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I think you are referring to my comment in another thread and yes the standard suspension can handle most situations my comment and recommendation was on the assumption that people on this site would be towing and carrying a bit of weight in the back. i know our new patrol will be getting an upgrade of its suspension. only for the reason that it sags with the weight of the trailer on a bit more than i like. i am sure it would last a good cape or outback trip with no issues but in saying that i would think at some point the back end would bottom out and could do damage to other parts of the car. so may as well get in before hand. also as someone else has already pointed out with the extra weight of bar work and winches etc. you can have issues with an unlevel car or nose diving under braking. i reckon the patrol suspension would be stuffed in under 20k with bar work and good corrugations.
in saying all this the solution could be as simple as just adding airbags to the factory set up as others have but you don't get any extra clearance.
anyway that's my 2cents :cheers:
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I think it probably depends on the manufacturer and the quality of the original suspension components.
I was lucky enough to pick up one of the last Patrol 4.2 Coil Cabs. Drove around in it for the first 5000k and thought all was good. It was a tray truck for heavens sake, built to carry loads. We then decided to go across the Plenty to check it out, have another look around Alice, and then home across the Oodnadatta Track. Being rather thick, it was a day before we going to leave that I lobbed the Kimberley onto the back for the first time. Jeeeezzus, was the reaction. The tray of the Patrol sank most of the way to the diffs.
A very frantic call to the local mechanic had the truck on the 4 poster getting Old Man Emu installed the same day. When I saw the difference between the original gear and the OME stuff it was amazing. The Nissan shockers looked like they belonged on a small car, and the springs were a lot thinner than the new ones.
As on my GQ, the OME suspension is going along really well I am sure the Plenty would have killed the original setup.
As to the height increase, I think it is just a personal issue.
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We have upgraded all our 4x4 vehicles because we do a lot of bush driving and tow heavy loads.
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I have a 2003 ST Patrol which we brought as an ex demo for a dealer in Victoria on taking delivery and driving it around I thought that the suspension felt like I was riding on air it was so comfy, but just last Christmas which makes the vehicle 8 years on the original suspension I decided to invest a bit of money in the car and give it new suspension, I ended up going for the medium duty Dobinson kit with a two inch lift and a tough dog return to center steering dampener. Well on picking up the car from O/L the tech told me that the old suspension had sagged 25mm over the years and that with the new suspension it had gained 3 inches in height from what it was. As I drove it out of the garage I immediately noticed how light the steering was and how much feel I had through the steering wheel, by the time I got the car home I was extatic at the ride handling and breaking of the car. I was the same as others thinking wy bother? But after having aftermarket suspension fitted to the patrol, there is no way that I would ever own a Fourbie without aftermarket suspension. It's that good! Nissan/ Toyota make a pretty good product but aftermarket suspension makes it sooooooooo much better.
My 2cents worth.
Leon.... :cheers:
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I am currently going through a GVM upgrade of our fleet work vehicle, while suspension maybe OK, we don't see standard suspension as that great for our work .
I look at what I load on my 4x4 when I'm working and what I carry when camping, the weight isn't too much of a difference yet the GVM upgrade is required for our worksites.
Each to there own, but my preference is if your doing serious 4x4 driving or touring then doing an upgrade is a wise choice.
Just my 5 cents worth
Campfire
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With a front bar, winch and dual batteries, under braking the Prado nose dived like a pig hence I replaced the suspension form new.
Bingo. this is what many people dont think about.. theres many 100kgs right there..
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The benefits of a lift depends on the car I think. A cruiser/patrol with live axles doesn't benefit as much from a suspension lift as something like a Pajero or Prado because it doesn't matter how high you lift the cruiser the diffs stay the same. You improve rampover and approach/departure angles but not clearance. Only way you can do that is with bigger tyres.
A Pajero or Prado though gain all the lift in ground clearance due to the independent suspension, plus the improvement in rampover and approach/departure angles.
Catch 22 with the live axles though. Need to lift them to get clearance for bigger tyres.
:cheers: Cracka
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Catch 22 with the live axles though. Need to lift them to get clearance for bigger tyres.
:cheers: Cracka
But then doesn't that effect your gearing and speedo/odometer ? Bigger tyres=more hp required=less performance so everything needs to be recalibrated ? (just a thought, I don't have many, hurts too much)
keith
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...................because it doesn't matter how high you lift the cruiser the diffs stay the same.
You improve rampover and approach/departure angles but not clearance.
Only way you can do that is with bigger tyres.
Yes, when traveling in sand (and probably mud too) it's the diffs that will stop you >:D
The body may be an extra foot off the dirt, where you need side steps just to get into the cab, but you will have the diffs about the same height off the ground, on any deeply worn bush track the diffs will still define where you can and can't go in a straight line :'(
I'm not referring to getting in & out of creeks but in a straight line, where you place your tires depends on having a tire freewheeling itself in mid air as the diff sits on the dirt :-[
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I'm onto my fourth 4WD. The 40 Series just handled and rode so much better on aftermarket suspension, even though it didn't need more articulation or ground clearance. The 80 Series (owned for 14 years from new) had sagged halfway through its life and a 50mm kit actually raised it by over 100mm, again, with improved handling. By the time I had the GU Patrol I was no longer battling goat tracks and the standard suspension was just fine for reaching the favourite camping spots.
My Easter trip to Little Dessert in the Touareg has made me realise that ground clearance is everything!!! Its limited wheel travel is made up for by electronic diff locks and traction control and it can easily make progress on three wheels, but not when its resting on its belly in deep sand!
I've had Suparide with Konigs and OME from ARB. These are great but are not nearly as good as the kits I've seen on some 4WD's. I remember seeing quite a few of these vehicles flying along the rough tracks of central Australia a few years ago. There were able to travel at twice the speed I could and they didn't even need to slow down for the creek wash-outs. They might have still been in the development stage because they seemed to throw up more rocks than other vehicles and I haven't seen them in any of the Off Road retailers. In fact the only way I could tell that these vehicles had been modified was that they had a sticker on the back window. Does anybody know where I can get a Hertz fitted and do they make a kit for the VW?
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I remember seeing quite a few of these vehicles flying along the rough tracks of central Australia a few years ago.
There were able to travel at twice the speed I could and they didn't even need to slow down for the creek wash-outs.
They might have still been in the development stage because they seemed to throw up more rocks than other vehicles and I haven't seen them in any of the Off Road retailers.
In fact the only way I could tell that these vehicles had been modified was that they had a sticker on the back window.
Does anybody know where I can get a Hertz and do they make a kit for the VW?
is no large 4WD VeDubs available at this point in time in your area :'(
check this link for the common white Hertz you see in the bush on 2 wheels going sideways up hill
:-> http://www.hertz.com.au/rentacar/vehicleguide/index.jsp?targetPage=vehicleGuideHomeView.jsp&countryCode=AU&category=SUV/Minivan/4x4 (http://www.hertz.com.au/rentacar/vehicleguide/index.jsp?targetPage=vehicleGuideHomeView.jsp&countryCode=AU&category=SUV/Minivan/4x4)
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Hey Mcgirr..great question and one I've been wondering about myself.
Interesting to read everyone's answers and I reckon that all have answered in a perfect way that shows just how individual we all are!
I've got some great ideas now for what to do with my own car. I think that I'm going to stick with the standard suspension, until its time to change out due to normal wear and tear, then go for it on what set up I'd really like. I guess the test of the standard set up will be our trip to the Cape this year! Nice to know, Mcgirr that you've not only taken up stock cars but others have as well!
Its the one thing that has been bugging me that most people are quick to change out suspension on a brand new car. But as D4D has pointed out, with additions like bars, lights, batteries and the like, a car suddenly gains a lot more weight than it had as stock. I am yet to add all that!
On the airbag side of things...what kind of expense do they come to and are they tough enough to handle lots of dirt roads? (I'm thinking that this is a good way to stop the slight sag with the trailer on and not have to suffer changing the current suspension straight up...would that be correct?)
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I was quoted around the $350 mark for a set of airbags for the rear but if you wanted to control them from in the car you can add approx. another $700
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Hey Mark,
I drive a 2002 turbo diesel IFS 100 series. We have owned this car for a couple of months short of 6 years. When we bought it, it was stock standard with the addition of the bullbar and towbar. Last year we decided to upgrade the suspension as it felt like we were driving in a boat on the PDR. Rocking and rolling, not cool when you get car sick and have a bit of a drive in front of you!! :-[
I did a lot of research in to the different ones and went for the Bilstein Platinum Pack from Darren McRae in Geelong. We did a lot of k's in it standard but now with the upgrade...... WOW it feels so stable and nice to drive on the PDR, OTL or anywhere really.
We also have a '96 Toyota trayback which is stock standard and have taken it up the OTL as well. She went up Gunshot. So it really is horses for courses as they say.
:cheers: Bec
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Duchess
Airbags are approx $500 installed. I have had them on 2 cruisers both taken to the Cape and no problems. I have the air intake at the rear. Always make sure you have at least 10psi in them. Airbags can range from basic to top of the range but I use the red ones.
Mark
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Bilstein Platinum Pack from Darren McRae in Geelong.
He gets quite the wrap on pradopoint. :cup:
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He gets quite the wrap on pradopoint. :cup:
McRayfish is a legend...
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McRayfish is a legend...
an old photo of him
(http://www.silverbox.com/krusty/images/krusty.gif)
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an old photo of him
He's lost a few kilos in that photo :)