MySwag.org The Off-road Camper Trailer Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: D4D on September 13, 2011, 06:13:10 PM
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http://www.4wdaction.com.au/articles/custom-4wds/46551-4wding-australia-under-threat-once-again
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Well Anna wont be far behind in the nanny state. Happy to sign a petition / send letter or email if you can get the details up.
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Don't shoot me, but I'm in two minds regarding this legislation. I have been 4wding for many years and have only ever had a maximum 32" tyres on a Patrol. Over time I found that I was becoming very limited in where i could go off road, due to larger tyre tracks making it difficult for me to traverse. Since selling my latest Patrol, I simply don't take the Prado on some of the tracks I used to use as I'm sure I would cause too much damage to the car. My point is where does it end? 33"tyres these days seem too small and 35"are fast being fitted to most large 4wds. This can only mean that when the tracks start getting chopped up and rutted, most 4wds on say 31"won't get through without assistance.
I believe that a 2" lift and 31"tyres should be legislated so normalish vehicles can still enjoy some of the more popular tracks as well.
Anyway, my thoughts only as I have stopped using some of my more favourite tracks simply because I now need a bigger lift etc.
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As far as I understand it, WA (and QLD too from what I've read on the various forums) already go by a similar version of whats being proposed in NSW - feel free to correct me if Im wrong. From what I can see 4wding hasnt ended here - its this sort of scare mongering marketing that stopped me buying 4wd action the last time they pulled of this sort of thing
Just my 2c ???
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Don't shoot me, but I'm in two minds regarding this legislation. I have been 4wding for many years and have only ever had a maximum 32" tyres on a Patrol. Over time I found that I was becoming very limited in where i could go off road, due to larger tyre tracks making it difficult for me to traverse. Since selling my latest Patrol, I simply don't take the Prado on some of the tracks I used to use as I'm sure I would cause too much damage to the car. My point is where does it end? 33"tyres these days seem too small and 35"are fast being fitted to most large 4wds. This can only mean that when the tracks start getting chopped up and rutted, most 4wds on say 31"won't get through without assistance.
I believe that a 2" lift and 31"tyres should be legislated so normalish vehicles can still enjoy some of the more popular tracks as well.
Anyway, my thoughts only as I have stopped using some of my more favourite tracks simply because I now need a bigger lift etc.
x2. I agree with this and having lived in the outback and volunteered with the emergency services, there was oo many times we were called to vehicle roll-overs which were large 4wds with big tyres and rediculous lifts.
a 2" lift and 31's should get you to so much of this country, if you drive carefully and pick your lines. It is unfortunate these days that too much media importance, by magazines, is placed on big lifts and your rights. Perhaps some attention should be paid to the rights of ALL Aussies to travel this great country, without unsafe modifications to vehicles.
My 2c worth.
:cheers: Cracka
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I agree , when you see a Subaru on the way back from the Cape in corro's overtaking you its time to go home. There is a limit and it is time for it to happen there are too many people getting killed by being a HOON and others, 5 on the Cape in 20 days and 13 over the season at the end of last month. Time to have a big wake up and tow your pride and joy to Tuff Truck. Barnray
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I'm in two minds about it, part of me agrees with the "no need for big wheels" as I am quite happy with my penis length and moderate sized family wagon. With cross axle diff locks and an eye for lines and a vehicle that has steel bars all around there's not much that will stop this kind of setup. However, the other side of me is open minded enough to appreciate that people can do whatever they like, if they want big tyres and lifts - enjoy!
You can't please everyone, but I don't think we should restrict everyone.
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There has to be a logical limit, We have too many problems on the road now. I have had hoons overtake me on the crest of a hill 2 at a time when I was at 100k/h over doubles, it is time we had a good think about it not cry because someone has already decided to do it. R
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x2. I agree with this and having lived in the outback and volunteered with the emergency services, there was oo many times we were called to vehicle roll-overs which were large 4wds with big tyres and rediculous lifts.
a 2" lift and 31's should get you to so much of this country, if you drive carefully and pick your lines. It is unfortunate these days that too much media importance, by magazines, is placed on big lifts and your rights. Perhaps some attention should be paid to the rights of ALL Aussies to travel this great country, without unsafe modifications to vehicles.
My 2c worth.
:cheers: Cracka
Just because a vehicle is lifted does not make it unsafe. When i purchased my Landcruiser it had a tough dog 6 inch lift and 35 inch tyres. It was not unsafe or difficult to drive, you just had to bear in ind that you were driving a vehicle with a high center of gravity. Having said that I then lowered it to 2 inches of lift and fitted 33 inch tyres to basically comply with the law without engineering.
My opinion is that this will probably get stopped again with some politician proclaiming how they have listened to the people and acted to help us.
I'm in no way against people having big lifts and tyres, But these mods need to be a safe package. Having worked on the gate of tuff truck for the last 5 years I've seen some trucks drive in that would have to be unsafe and should not be on the road.
At the end of the day it's not big tyres that destroy tracks, It's idiot drivers who need to spin big tyres to get to where they want to go.
Just my 2c.
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Lets not speculate on the causes of these vehicle accidents, or infer that vehicles with larger tyres, and above average lifts, are always driven by the hoon element of the public.
Lets stick to the facts. It was mentioned in an earlier post about scare mongering by the media, perhaps this is scare mongering from the opposite perspective.
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Well said GD.
I think you would find that vehicle accidents are caused by many different factors and I doubt that some lift, bigger tyres or a modified diesel engine would rate higher than say driver error.
If these new laws are about saving lives why not spend the time and money on changing the major causing factors in vehicle fatalities.
Idiots are idiots and would do dumb things in whatever vehicle they have available to them.
It's totally cool for a 50 year old guy who has spent his life driving a Toyota Camry to buy a run of the mill SS Commodore or Falcon putting out a factory standard 270kw. Is that not more concerning than 35" tires on a Patrol or Cruiser?
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It was mentioned in an earlier post about scare mongering by the media
If they keep throwing Shit, it will eventually stick.
Where will the limiting of modifications end...? If someone does it all correctly, and engineers it, why shouldnt they be allowed to run 33/35/37's?? Why do we have to screw up someoene elses fun all the time? Aussie, land of the fun police.
On the flipside of the "stick with 31's" arguement, you can go further and with less damage on a track with more clearance, then your tyres barely gripping - larger foot print blah blah.. Theres + and - for it all.
Lets ban 4wds all together. People used to travel every track in Australia in 2wd cars decades ago. If they did it back then, why cant you do it now? Its a stupid arguement like "all stick with small tyres'... adding to that Patrols come with 33's standard in cheese cutters.
Anyway, arent they supposed to all be working on NATIONAL RULES.. NCOP = National Code of Practice - the large white knight they have been promising for ...ever ... or is that back where it was 20 years ago?
You'd all cry on Sig's old 80 series, engineered and legal on 44's.
http://www.4x4offroads.com/toyota-land-cruiser-australia.html complete with engineers certificate
(http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g308/Bentzook/ziggylandcruiser.jpg)
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It's totally cool for a 50 year old guy who has spent his life driving a Toyota Camry to buy a run of the mill SS Commodore or Falcon putting out a factory standard 270kw. Is that not more concerning than 35" tires on a Patrol or Cruiser?
In a similar vein, I think the bigger concern is kids buying 300kw Skylines as their first car... a whopping 2-3yrs experience and they are Aust Rally, Aust Roadrace, V8 Supertaxi champs instantly.. all of them..
But its all being seen to be doing *something* in the politicians eyes..
Mr Public hears from them every once in a while, Mr Public will think they are doing wonders and not ask questions
edit: its not only raising cars thats under threat, but people who lower them are also gettin bashed, hotrods, sports cars, show cars everything... its all piss and wind laws.
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There has to be a logical limit, We have too many problems on the road now. I have had hoons overtake me on the crest of a hill 2 at a time when I was at 100k/h over doubles, it is time we had a good think about it not cry because someone has already decided to do it. R
And what. Did all the hoons have 35's and 6 inch lifts... It did matter what they had on our Cape trip. Standard Pajeros or Patrols with lifts, they would go past you no matter as they felt they could. What difference do you think this law will make top that...ZIP
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Rather than jump on 4WD Action's bandwagon (which is all about selling magazines), write to your local MP with a cohesive and rational argument for why you have a lift kit and larger tyres. Explain why they are beneficial, and point out how your tourist dollars help the towns you visit. That's the sort of thing that will quell the misinformation that exists about 4wding. If a MP gets up in Parliament and explains the reality rather than the sensationalisation, we are home and hosed (wow, does that old saying - originally for horses - apply to us or what?).
Personally I don't see the need for more than 2" lift and 33" tyres unless you are building a play truck for the offroading in your local area, but like Gunna Do I'm perfectly ok about people choosing to go bigger, and that choice should be available.
The other worthy effort you could make is to join a 4WD club, most are fairly active politically and as always with pollies it's weight of numbers (translated: votes) that gets their interest.
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all you lot that say u agree, u say there should be a limit, but you want the limit to be 33's or 31' because thats what you have. So you want rules but you want them to suit you. Well all larger 4wds have a higher c of g so in certain situations they must be more unstable than a suby. So what if they say we will only be allowed to drive subaru's? Will you all be so richous.
And on the damage. Go somwhere like the cape. The damage isnt caused by well equiped cars. Its caused by once in a lifetime f*wits in their Shitbox overloaded std cars with their chainsaws clearing new tracks, cutting down trees because they saw it on a Malcom Douglass episode, and their towbars dragging on dropoffs scalloping out the trail.
Every one wants to bag modified cars., even people here. No wonder they use it to sell newspapers and magazines
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X2 what Darren said
But if we are going to put in limits I think that all 4x4s should be banned they kill people we should all drive hybrid mini micras
I can't believe what I am reading wake up to yourselfs if rules like this come in where does it stop
Next will be no 4x4s in the city
Grrrrrrrrrrr
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i bet all those hoons that gave u all grief were wearing hoodies too. We have become quite the angry mob, havent we...
I wonder if we can find some Jews...
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I am not sure about this one. I clicked on the link to the VSI 50 buletin posted on 4WD action and it does not come from the RTA website and it just looks like a scanned document.
http://enews.emgroup.com.au/4wd/2011/vsi50/VSI-50.pdf
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Oh I also did a search on the RTA website and all it said was it is getting reviewed.
http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/registration/regonewsandinfo/raise_lower_vehicles.html
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As far as I can tell, the new rules are, you can go 3" max in raising your 4WD, 2" max in suspension lift and 1" over size on tyres, to a max of 33" in tyre size.
There's not many 4WDs out there with 32s as standard, the Defender is one, 78series Cruiser? G-Wagon, most come with 31s Cruiser/Patrol, might be a problem for Hilux and Disco 1 and 2 owners though, having 29s as standard.
Personnally I don't see a problem with this, especially if your setting up a tourer, but that's just my opinion.
Baz.
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I'm in two minds about it, part of me agrees with the "no need for big wheels" as I am quite happy with my penis length and moderate sized family wagon. With cross axle diff locks and an eye for lines and a vehicle that has steel bars all around there's not much that will stop this kind of setup. However, the other side of me is open minded enough to appreciate that people can do whatever they like, if they want big tyres and lifts - enjoy!
You can't please everyone, but I don't think we should restrict everyone.
+1.
My take on it is:
Let's have a proper, nation-wide legislation for what you can do to your own car, as an umbrella/catch-all rule. IE, 50mm suspension lift, and +50mm tyre size increase. You can do that, and not need to get certified.
HOWEVER, this needs to be coupled with a proper engineering scheme for people who fall outside of these rules. IE, if you want to run 35" tyres, that's fine, but you'll need to get engineered, inspected and certified. There's no reason why a car with 35" tyres can't be perfectly safe if it's been built right, brake upgrades, gearing, etc. By having a certification scheme you allow people the freedom of choice, but you allow them to do it safely within a framework that ensures they're not endangering the general public.
At the moment in QLD we have the first (just the lift bit, +15mm on tyre size increase), but not the second. There is NO provision for making a car with bigger tyres legal. So has it stopped people fitting big tyres? Of course not! All it's done is make those people into criminals, and void their insurance.
Rather than restrict people and tell them what they should or shouldn't do, we should be going back to the intention behind all of this - which is to ensure that vehicles on the road behave in a safe and predictable manner so that everyone can share the road. HOW we achieve that, well, there's a lot of ways to get there...
Thanks!
Matto :)
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I don't see it as a problem.
Modified cars?
Agree, but within reason.
Only problem is where is is the limit of this reason.
That is different for everyone as Darren said. It has to be within your reason.
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So what if they say we will only be allowed to drive subaru's? Will you all be so richous.
I'd be OK with that - I've already got one. Supply and demand and all that - I might be able to sell it and retire.
Thanks!
Matto :)
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Wow , someone opened a can of worms huh??
Who realisitically thinks that fitting a HOMEGROWN 6" lift and whacking a set of 37's on your 80 Series ISNT a recipe for disaster?? IF these things are done properly, AND they are certified as SAFE then sure. Unfortunatley, we probably all know at least one person who thinks " well Stuff it. I'm not paying to have this engineered. I'll worry about it if I get a Canary from the Cops".
Would I do it?? No. I personally am happy with my ManHood and dont need to overtly display my compensation for all to see. At least not for my daily drive.
HOWEVER, if you are building a Comp Truck, to use in an appropriate controlled environment of competition, then I say Go For It!! I have a few friends who build Comp trucks with Mad Lifts and tyres that look like they belong on one of those Dump Trucks you see in a mine!! But guess what? They dont drive it to work every day. They dont run it down the freeway on the 37"s wallowing around all over the place, with the freeway handleing of an aircraft carrier and sounding like a swarm of attacking Hornets! Some of them have them engineered, and the others Tow them to comps. Thats called being responsible. It is unfortunetly the irresponsible that cause this kind of knee jerk, poorly thought out legislation to even grow legs in the first place. there must be a mechanism by which people who feel they need this type of Penis-extention (for what ever reason) can get is certified as safe. Have they worked the brakes? Gearing? Speedo calibrated? etc etc etc? does it indeed handle like a boat? rather than just ban it and increase revenue from fines, they must put appropriate measures in place to inspect and certify.
There is a time and a place for big lifts and big tyres (Perhaps a diffrent topic all together........). If WE (the 4x4ing public) were sensible about it, this wouldnt be a problem, and politicians wouldn't be trying to play "Fun Police". Ya dont need 37" to drive to work or pick the kids up from school. The Anti-4x4 lobby of killjoys, greenines and ludites are already powerful enough. I must agree that the propensity for people to whack on 35's and go "tear up some tracks" is making it increasingly difficult for those of us who cant afford to run road tyres and off road tyres, to access some of the closer "recreational" tracks to keep our skills up nad ensure that when we go away once or twice a year on the bigger trips that we are a little more practiced and SAFER for all. The wheel ruts are getting so deep some places in Toolangi at the moments even 35's and 4" lift wont be enough soon. It seems this area in used as a psudo Competiton track on a Sunday arvo to "Test" one's Manhood out by seeing who can go furthest and deepest. And then when you roll it over, I or my collegues come save your ass. More than once, drivers are more worried about their trucks than themselves or their passengers wellbeing? Go figure.
There is talk recently that scrub rails are gonna get the flick under a new interpretation by VicRoads of the current Roadworthy guidelines. Lets hope not.
There are all sorts of things that are scary on the road: 18 year olds in skylines and Supras' , Old (I mean REALLY old) people driving any car, so close to the steering wheel because it lets them see further, at 30-40 kph under the speed limit. MLC's (Mid-Life Crisis) with their SS comodores and FPV Falcons who think their 20 years driving experience makes them Mark Webber or Craig Lowndes. And to some people its 10 foot high Landcruisers and Patrols. unfortunely , its seen as ok to bash 4x4 owners, but not old people, young people (unless they are wearing a hoodie, then its ok ;) ) and middle aged people who drive fast road cars like idiots. I've been to all of these popele in my professional capacity. And I've been to 4x4 drivers. some in stock trucks, some modified.
If we (4x4 owners in general, and most of us ARE already) are a little sensible we might just take the target off our own backs. The problem is, the truely irresponsible ones dont care about other people. Darren is right in that you dont need to be a hard core lift-o-maniac to be irresponsbile either. People who chop up tracks with massive tyre or make a new track "just because" are equally to blame. they are stuffing it up for those of us who are responsible users
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I'm not paying to have this engineered.
If it was easier and cheaper to get done (like it was 5yrs ago when I got the 6+inch and 35s done on the GQ -$500 not $2000), I reckon 90% of more people would go through it.
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Ya dont need 37" to drive to work or pick the kids up from school.
Maybe not, but then who am I to tell you that you shouldn't have 37" tyres if it's done right? Just because I wouldn't have them on mine doesn't mean you shouldn't have them on yours. This person might be one of those "can't afford two sets of tyres" people. My daily driver has a set of KM2's on it - no need for them onroad either - maybe we should be banning muddies as well?
There are all sorts of things that are scary on the road: 18 year olds in skylines and Supras' , Old (I mean REALLY old) people driving any car, so close to the steering wheel because it lets them see further, at 30-40 kph under the speed limit. MLC's (Mid-Life Crisis) with their SS comodores and FPV Falcons who think their 20 years driving experience makes them Mark Webber or Craig Lowndes.
You forgot motorcycles. While we're bashing people who choose different things to ourselves, you CAN'T leave out morotcyclists. They're all crazy, they all have a death wish, and they all WILL die from it (and probably kill your kids in the process).
You can't legislate against stupidity, nor should you try.
My $0.02
Matto :)
Who's first car was a 4L Valiant Charger when I was 17.
Who had an import Nissan Silvia when he wasn't much older.
Who's first motorcycle was a 998cc V-twin.
Who's current motorcycle is over a litre in capacity.
Who drives a lifted 4wd with muddies to work every morning.
Who has, on occasion, exceeded the speed limit.
Who, by all accounts, should be well and truly dead, but seems to still be waking up each morning.
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If it was easier and cheaper to get done (like it was 5yrs ago when I got the 6+inch and 35s done on the GQ -$500 not $2000), I reckon 90% of more people would go through it.
You know, I don't even have a problem with the price, so long as it's not ridiculous, and it's there as an option. What gets me is that under these proposed laws, and in QLD WRT tyre sizes, there's NO option. Any tyre over 15mm larger than standard is dangerous, and is illegal, and that's that.
If there's an option to get modifications made safe and legal (and not every modification will be able to), then it becomes a choice between paying the money and doing it properly, or winging it as a backyard job. In that space, I'm all for the cops nailing people who have chosen to DIY something up and not get it certified. It becomes less about someone telling you what you shoudl or shouldn't do, and more about whether you've chosen the correct path or not.
I'm out!
Matto :)
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I think the majority of people would agree that regulations are ok just not restrictions.
DeLuxHilux, why do you need to slander people with a different interest to you. So when you see someone with big tires and lift (may be engineered, you don't know) you feel the need to imply that your penis must be bigger than theirs.? I bet they think nothing of you when they see you in your idea of a cool rig.
You say that it's "being responsible" if the rig is engineered so it would sound like your problem is in fact with un engineered mods rather than just the mods. This is more of a policing issue rather than legislation issue.
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Well all i can say in this matter is i really don't have a problem with rules, we live by rules every day in our lives and yes some rules are silly but that's how it is. I see that there are many comments re 17-18 year olds in this forum but they have been banned from driving high performance vehicles, so why do we need 4WD that are heavily modified with high lifts on the road?
We don't they don't handle the way they did when they were built. The modern vehicle is so much more advanced these days to travel place that the older 4WD struggle to reach.
I've been to many a fatal traffic crash with cars and 4WD and to be honest the modern car is a lot more safer than 4WD's. There have been many a fool that i have charged with there manner of driving in modified 4WD, as well as cars. I find it amazing that people are against the proposed legislation, I admit I haven't seen it or read about it, however, when or if they bring it in or publish it for comment then we will all have a proper understanding of the governments decisions process.
To modify your 4WD I don't have a problem with, but to have heavily modified 4WD with high lifts on the road is absolutely ridiculous and as far as I'm concern, they shouldn't be on our roads. I'm also of the same opinion for the passengers cars that are modified also.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Darren :police:
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God theres some uneducated rubbish and a hell of a lot of assumptions in this thread, but that happens everytime this subject shows its head!!
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God theres some uneducated rubbish and a hell of a lot of assumptions in this thread, but that happens everytime this subject shows its head!!
I have found that I have not agree'd with you often lately Lost but let me say we are on the same page with this one.
Does everyone know that a graded dirt road isn't really a 4wd track?
Give it time and we will be told what colored clothes to wear.
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I have found that I have not agree'd with you often lately Lost but let me say we are on the same page with this one.
Does everyone know that a graded dirt road isn't really a 4wd track?
Give it time and we will be told what colored clothes to wear.
But we are, remember Hi-Vis ;D
Baz.
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Haha. True mate.
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From what I have read it seems that you will be able to drive a more modified 4WD if you are a member of a club. Now there is one 4WD club to the west of me that has members who have 6inch lifts 35s etc and only go driving when the tracks are wet and muddy. These are the idiots we need to be rid of but under the latest proposals they will still be there.....
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I work in the 4x4 industry ( 4x4 Suspension for those of you who don't know ) I see first hand what type of people who are buying the big lift kits, It is the younger P-platers who come in and ask whats the bigest lift i can put in my 4x4 now the first thing i tell them is are you a p-plater 99% of the time yes thay are, the next thing is whats the cheapest price. When you start to list things that thay will need to do to the bigger lifts you get meet with, " Na my mate told me you don't need that stuff, I just want springs and shocks". So that's what you have to deal with.
If thay made the engineering side of things cheaper I do think more pepole would get it done my self for one.
Now don't get me wrong, I have 7" springs in my GQ patrol but it would be lucky to be a 5" lift, and the height it is at I would not call it HUGE it is no bigger than a GU with a 3" lift, but I have spent a great deal of money on getting the vehicle to drive like it should, and for the record i have two sets of tyres.
Ryan
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Always feels like we're in America when the wheel/lift conversations start. Why we tolerate this seppo rubbish I'll never know!
My 50mm lift and 265/70/406.4 tyres suit me fine, but each to his own IMO.
Just my 2p 8)
Cranky Cam
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Always feels like we're in America when the wheel/lift conversations start. Why we tolerate this seppo rubbish I'll never know!
My 50mm lift and 265/70/406.4 tyres suit me fine, but each to his own IMO.
Just my 2p 8)
Cranky Cam
For everyone that shares your opinion there is 10 people that think "why do you need to lift your already high 4wd and change the tires". From their point of view what you are doing is making your vehicle handle different to what it was intended too. Your ripping up the dirt roads and the suberu's are finding it harder to get around. ;D
I don't have a wildy modified 4wd. Quite mild by any standards but this issue is all about choice. Stop taking my ability to make my own decisions away from me.
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+1.
My take on it is:
Let's have a proper, nation-wide legislation for what you can do to your own car, as an umbrella/catch-all rule. IE, 50mm suspension lift, and +50mm tyre size increase. You can do that, and not need to get certified.
HOWEVER, this needs to be coupled with a proper engineering scheme for people who fall outside of these rules. IE, if you want to run 35" tyres, that's fine, but you'll need to get engineered, inspected and certified. There's no reason why a car with 35" tyres can't be perfectly safe if it's been built right, brake upgrades, gearing, etc. By having a certification scheme you allow people the freedom of choice, but you allow them to do it safely within a framework that ensures they're not endangering the general public.
At the moment in QLD we have the first (just the lift bit, +15mm on tyre size increase), but not the second. There is NO provision for making a car with bigger tyres legal. So has it stopped people fitting big tyres? Of course not! All it's done is make those people into criminals, and void their insurance.
Rather than restrict people and tell them what they should or shouldn't do, we should be going back to the intention behind all of this - which is to ensure that vehicles on the road behave in a safe and predictable manner so that everyone can share the road. HOW we achieve that, well, there's a lot of ways to get there...
Thanks!
Matto :)
Well there is my rational argument!! :)
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My issue with with the this is not the person who does the right thing and does this sort of stuff properly. The ones who think it is cool to run massive lifts and tyres and what ever other mods "because it looks cool' and cut up our tracks, and besmirch the image and good reputations of the rest of us, the 4x4 driving public, because they are the most obvious target for the 4x4 haters out there. I dint have an issue with big lifts and tyres...........just as long as it's done properly.
Similarly, if you want to run a 500hp Twin turbo Mazda RX-3 or a 350hp Suzuki- Go find a track and race it there, get the f*ck of the streets, where me and my family drive -Sure you're less likely to see a 4x4 doing burnouts at Macca's on a Saturday night, but is the Patrol on Steroids less safe after these modifications which significantly vary from the Manufacturers intent and design? We wont know unless someone looks at it and makes sure what's been done doesn't compromise the vehicles safety and design! If you want to heavily modify your vehicle, then go and drive it on a closed Road, or make sure it is safe (ie Laws to ensure it is!)
Yes, this is a Policing issue. If you can get a set of rules that allow people to do these mods, ensure that they comply with a set of standards then ensure that at least the vehicle (if not the operator) are safe, then the only matter left is the manner in which the operator drives said vehicle (whatever type it is!!) In Vic where a Roadworthy certificate is only required when a vehicle is bought/sold, there is nothing stopping you buying a $3000 Patrol and elevating it to lofty heights but not having to get any sort of safety check done on it unless you bring yourself to the attention of Mr Fuzz.
i think some legislation is appropriate: this legislation seems to be over the top though . it needs to be National, and it needs to be at a point that allows people to make some sensible mods without expensive engineers certificates, and more extensive mods should require certification to ensure that the rest of the road using public are safe from at least the vehicle, if not always the operator.
And Lost, I drive a mildly (40mm) lifted 4x4 with muddies to work, it just isn't 6 inches and 37" respectively. My issue is with the back yard, half baked, poorly thought out job. . There are implications to rocking down to the local tyre joint saying " whack a set of 37's on that for me" and driving away too without a thought for the strees placed on the vehicle and considerabel changes to the handeling charcteristics and braking forces required.
Oh, and while we're bagging people, you forgot Volvo drivers as well...... No list would be complete without Volvo Drivers......
Matto - Hear Hear - Exactly
ryan - this is the type of person i'm talking about. "just make it as big as you can - i dont give a rat's a$$ that it wont turn or stop, i just want it BIGGER"
You're right, we cant legislate against Stupid. imagine the jail cells we'd need!!!
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Similarly, if you want to run a 500hp Twin turbo Mazda RX-3 or a 350hp Suzuki- Go find a track and race it there, get the f*ck of the streets, where me and my family drive
So lets ban hotrods and streetmachines too. I think I'd rather 100% of the them on the streets, to the P Plate girls in their Micra's eating bowls of cereal, and putting on their makeup while on the phone sitting on 80 in a 100 zone on the freeway.
While at it, I want to ban prams.. they are a nightmare around shopping centers....Cause I dont like them.
I also want to ban utes cause I dont like them. Specially ones that are not used by Tradesmen which they are designed for, not some teen status symbol...
Lets ban P Platers... Cause I dont like them.
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2" lift and 33's on my GU and I have a small willy :)
Ok I contribute nothing to this thread............
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2" lift and 33's on my GU and I have a small willy :)
Ok I contribute nothing to this thread............
Don't sell yourself short, I think you did, you lightened the mood ;D
45mm lift and 32s, even smaller willy, well 31.8" to be excact :cup:
Baz.
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Guys,
I run two cars - one midley lifted Gu and a pretty heavily modified GQ.
The Gu would still be illegal under these laws as it runs a 70mm lift and 33" tyres.
So my suspension would not pass as it is more than 2 " - wasnt the old law a % based measurement?
That is ofcourse unless i join a 4wd club - isnt that unionism?
Now i am a member of a 4wd club so its not a massive issue - the issue i have is forcing me to pay an anual membership fee for something i may not want. By all means make me get a different licence or attemd training - always someone else out there that knows more than you do.
Now for the other car. Its a 6" lifted (4" springs, 2" body) and runs 37" tyres. This car has been built for a purpose and is heavily maintained ( prob too much if you ask the other half) and has has a butt load of money spent on it to get it right. And yes this includes some engineering approval where i could get it (body lift, fuel tank mods etc).
And yes i can here some of you saying - "thats a comp car, take it off the road and dont drive it on the road"
That is also a fair comment and is why i have a car trailer and tow the ute 99% of places. - I'm not going to pretend i'm a saint and wont nip around the corner, litterally, to fill it up with fuel.
What you may not realise is that comp cars need to be road registered, in 99% of cases, to race.
This appearently has something to do with your CTP insurance that you must have.
so i agree with the previous comment that you can have a rule to a point where you do not need engineering. But dont take away the option to go further if you specifically design a vehical for a certian task.
I also agree that if the cost of doing so wasnt so high more people would go down the track of getting it checked out. In my experience, dont shoot me here, modified cars are better looked after than the beat up commodore that your neighbour does just enough to, to keep it on the road.
And my last point, i know it has been a long haul up to this point ;D , you cant legislate for the D*CkHead factor. Otherwise we will soon become the ultimate "nanny state" that everyone fears.
We need to clamp down on drivers, not the cars they drive.
Which is exactly why they banned "P" plate drivers from having high powered cars - they didnt ban high powered cars did they?
I would like to hold on to the slim amount of choice i have left.
LET THE WAR OF REPLIES BEGIN!!!! ;D ;D ;D
Welchy
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Don't sell yourself short, I think you did, you lightened the mood ;D
45mm lift and 32s, even smaller willy, well 31.8" to be excact :cup:
Baz.
You hoons and your big tyres. (Mine aren't even 31"...)
Also Baz, I wouldn't class a 31.8" willy as exactly "small", either. I'm not standing next to you in the showers. :o :-[
OK - Now I'm REALLY out!
Matto :)
PS - Welchy - you make good points. Exactly how I feel on the matter.
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Now come on. Three pages and not a single 'our fathers fought for our right....' blah blah blah
Very disappointing!
8) :-* :D
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Make that four pages......
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'our fathers fought for our right....' blah blah blah
;D
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How about they just enforce the laws they already have. Like someone else mentioned on here QLD probably have some of the tighest laws regarding mods but have a look at the 4wd forums and see many of the trucks those guys are running. It wont make a difference unless they actually enforce the laws.
If I can build a car properly and demonstrate through engineering etc that my car is safe then why shouldn't I be able to run whatever tyre size or lift or power output that I want. If I have built a car on the cheap, dropped it on its guts or jacked it sky high and couldn't be bothered to get certification then I should be pulled over, fined and the car taken off the road.
BTW I drive a 90 Hilux 4x4 with 2 inch lift and 31inch tyres. Even on my car without certification I believe 30.5inch tyres are the biggest you can run.
Cheers
James
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'our fathers fought for our right....' blah blah blah
;D
Thanks. Ol' Gil's gunna be sleepin tonight!
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I quite like the proposal for self certified 2" suspension and overall 3" combined lift to be legislated....but i don't think they should deny anyone getting an engineer to certify larger....so long as it is enforced. The qualified engineer should have the final say, not a bureaucrat.
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Besides the newsletter from 4WD Action, does anyone have any up to date info on what stage this proposed legislation is up to. I've done a quick search and can only find bits and pieces from a few years back.
Anyone got a link to information which outlines the new laws, as well as what stage it's up to and what's going on.
Seems all the 4x4 forums have been stirred up by the one newsletter, which contained very little info really, but got a whole lot of people talking.
What are the facts. Real facts!
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VSB14.
http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/vsb_ncop.aspx
VSI50
http://enews.emgroup.com.au/4wd/2011/vsi50/VSI-50.pdf
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Thanks Laith for the links.
After a quick read, and correct me if I've got this wrong, it would seem that the National Code of Practice (VSB14) is the more lenient of the two documents, and leaves avenues for people with higher lifts to still use their vehicle providing they have undergone the certification process. On quickly reading through this document, it left me quietly confident that we could live with these regulation, albeit with a little extra expense for certification.
Now the VSI50 document by the state government seems to take the VSB14 regulations one step further and eliminates any chances of vehicles with higher lifts ever being allowed to be registered or used on the roads. It lists numerous avenues and documentation that people must obtain even for very mild lifts, and to me will create a mine field of red tape for owners of these vehicles also.
The exemption clause for higher lifts (ride height increased by up to 100mm total suspension and tyres) and the need to join a 4x4 club or attain some sort of accreditation would be a bonus for these clubs and accreditors financially, but as has been spoken about on this forum a few times previously, the cridibility of these clubs etc., are not always the best for driving practices.
After a quick read, the National approach looks to be much better than the state level approach to this issue.
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There's more http://enews.emgroup.com.au/4wd/2011/VSI50_back/index.html
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Unfortunately codes of Practise sit lower in the Legal framework than Acts and Regulations.
The COP can be seen as a National "guidance" document, outlining minimum requirements State & Territory legislators are able to adopt, or in this case, further develop to their individual "needs".
As usual, not everyone agrees with the further development of restrictions being put forward by the RTA.
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Here in WA the NCOP has been adopted and IMO is good.
VSB 14 section LS makes a lot of sense to me as it takes care of all the issues, actual and perceived raised in this thread and other forums. To me the rules are not about restricting individuals rights to modify their vehicles, its to make sure they are done right and are safe to other road users. There are obviously some limits to what you can and can't do, and for good reason IMO.
I spend a bit of time on a few forums and most of what I read in this regard as a bit of a worry. Some of the things people do to their vehicles and the "advice" often handed out by backyard experts makes me glad we have some regulation framework.
Having said that, there are also a lot of people who do vehicle mods properly.
Added to that is if your vehicle is not roadworthy (illegal mods) insurance is a waste of money.