MySwag.org The Off-road Camper Trailer Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Pipeliner on January 19, 2011, 04:08:17 PM
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I passed my driving test (in the UK) in 1963, and as far as I can tell it was an almost identical test to the ones they have these days - stop and start both on the flat and on hills, 3-point turn, reverse park, emergency stop, obey road signs, give clear signals (I had to use hand signals - you get fined for doing that these days!).
The point I want to make is that the road conditions are very different these days to what they were in 1963, coupled with the fact that very few 17 year olds could afford a car that went more than 80-90kph flat out, and I think that the way we are assessed as to our ability to drive on the road without being a menace to ourselves and everyone else should change (become more restrictive) to match the changes in traffic. Too many people seem to think that obtaining a driving licence is a right rather than a privilege.
I've been driving all around the world for 47 years and I am still capable of scaring myself sh*tl*ss on occasions by a momentary lapse of concentration, so when I see young (and not so young) drivers weaving in and out of traffic, accelerating and braking hard, sqealing their tyres and generally behaving as though their car was a toy rather than a ton and a half of lethal metal, I am astonished at the relatively low fatality statistics. Let's make a driving licence harder to get and easier to lose - then maybe the accident rate will come down.
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Short answer - YES. Minimum requirement should be a 20 question test when you renew your licence also to keep up to date with the road rules.
Cheers
Geoff
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And a compulsory defensive driver course, and a seperate licence to tow a trailer!
Cheers Chippy :D
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Nothing like the older generation thinking that younger generation have it easy.....lol
Give me a break, people of all generations do stupid things on the road, why not make it compulsory for people over 40 to be retested they might be getting a bit dottery after all.
Licenses are harder to get today then they previously were and they are also much easier to loose as well.
If you have the propensity examine the road stats and then work whether proportionally, taking into account population increases etc are they any worse now then they say 20 years ago? I would be interested to know.
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Short answer - YES. Minimum requirement should be a 20 question test when you renew your licence also to keep up to date with the road rules.
Cheers
Geoff
Now that makes sense and recognizes it's not all about young people.
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Wish there was a simple answer.... in this ever changing world, i doubt there will ever be a simple solution to it.
Cars change, people change the road conditions change...
I remember being a passenger in a car as a kid, doing about 30 mile an hour in the country lanes back home,, and there so tight and blind,,,, i Shit myself,,,,
now i sit on the mtrways here and as a passenger fall asleep while the cars doing 120 klm hour...????
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I don't know what it is like over East but it is not so easy over here in WA. My daughter had to do a written test to get her L plates. She then has to learn to drive (part Dad, part Instructor) and pass the practical driving test. She then has to drive for 6 months, for a minimum of 75 hours, accompanied by someone who has had a full licence for at least four years, and keep a log book. She then has to drive on red P plates for six months (can't drive after midnight) and green P plates for 18 months. No alcohol at all while on either P plate.
This has toughened up fairly recently, her friend who started the process a bit before her only has to do 25 hrs on log book, with no time requirement (we got one of my older daughters through that in just over a week as we were going awway and she needed transport).
Seems fairly tough to me. I hear that in NZ they can reduce their time to full qualification by doing an advanced driving course - that seems like a good idea, they would learn more in a couple of days than in a few weeks pottering around.
Greydemon
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greydemon, similar in NSW but no practical test for L's. They have to do 100hrs in a log book, one hour with. Driving instructor is equivalent to 3hrs without but that concession is capped to 30hrs and given that 10hrs with a driving instructor would cost you min $600 its prohibitive for families.
There is talk about parents fudging the logbook.
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Nothing like the older generation thinking that younger generation have it easy.....lol
Give me a break, people of all generations do stupid things on the road, why not make it compulsory for people over 40 to be retested they might be getting a bit dottery after all.
Licenses are harder to get today then they previously were and they are also much easier to loose as well.
If you have the propensity examine the road stats and then work whether proportionally, taking into account population increases etc are they any worse now then they say 20 years ago? I would be interested to know.
x2
Refer http://myswag.org/forum/index.php?topic=10442.0 (http://myswag.org/forum/index.php?topic=10442.0) for our recent experience with young drivers.
I would like to see compulsory defensive driving courses introduced but disagree totally that licences are easier to get now. In NSW you have to do 120 hours of practical driving (at least 20 at night) before you can sit your driving test, followed by 3 years of provisional licencing. P platers are also subject to automatic loss of licence for any speeding offence or use of mobile phones. I would have been lucky to do 20 hours of prac before I got my licence.
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I don't know what it is like over East but it is not so easy over here in WA. My daughter had to do a written test to get her L plates. She then has to learn to drive (part Dad, part Instructor) and pass the practical driving test. She then has to drive for 6 months, for a minimum of 75 hours, accompanied by someone who has had a full licence for at least four years, and keep a log book. She then has to drive on red P plates for six months (can't drive after midnight) and green P plates for 18 months. No alcohol at all while on either P plate.
This has toughened up fairly recently, her friend who started the process a bit before her only has to do 25 hrs on log book, with no time requirement (we got one of my older daughters through that in just over a week as we were going awway and she needed transport).
Seems fairly tough to me. I hear that in NZ they can reduce their time to full qualification by doing an advanced driving course - that seems like a good idea, they would learn more in a couple of days than in a few weeks pottering around.
Greydemon
The problem with that system is that the L and P plater pick up all the bad habits of the person they are driving with - I know I picked up bad habits from my dad - which i still do now - 12 or so years later.
The fault with the 20 questions is that most people know all of the rules - its the fact they choose to not follow them
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i also think there needs to be a licence to drive anything over 2 tonne, they do not stop like a sedan does
even when empty my bt-50 and works 100 series landcruiser dont stop anywhwere as quick as the commorode wagons we have
and with th epower they now have the drive excellerate like cars
learners have to do a lot of hours on their log books now something you didnt have to do in 1933 or whenever it was
even 18 years ago i drove a car three times and passed my licence on my 4th time ever behind a steering wheel
my view is a defensive driving course and 100 hours behind the wheel first 10 and last 10 done with a driving school
that way you get some base guidlines then mum dad helps then the last 20 to iron out the bad habits mum and dad taught you
and another point for you the government will gladly over govern if you ask them too so be carefull what you ask for, it justifys there existance as the green groups so rightly use to their advantage
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It is definitely NOT easier now than in the past. I have been through 120 hrs learners practice for 2 sons in the past year. Youngest son has his test booked for 10 days after over a year of learning!! He has done significantly more driving than I did, and in a variety of cars (my Prado, wife's Astra plus a couple of different instructors, plus country driving, freeway driving & backstreet driving). I had my L's for 3 mths, drove dad's Falcon to school each morning, got my licence on my 17th birthday. The test involved driving round the block in Parramatta and a reverse park.
I think professional instruction should be mandatory (perhaps subsidised by govt as its not cheap) as there is a danger that son picks up dad's bad habits. I also intend putting son through advanced driver training once he has got his licence, something I never did, but probably should have.
Mal
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Getting a licence is a lot tougher these days. Anyone who says otherwise obviously hasn't tried to get one recently, and like someone said before, it is also a lot easier to lose your licence than it was in the past.
If we want to make it tougher to get one, sure, but also make it tougher to keep it. I also vote for people over 40 to do an annual refresher on road rules as many still don't know how to use a roundabout. People over 60 are to do it 6 monthly, as many don't seem to remember any of the rules.
There should also be a separate classification (and exam) before you can tow a caravan, included in the testing is you need to prove that you can handle a vehicle towing a 3T caravan around at 100km/hr. What's that? You don't feel safe towing at 100km/hr? No licence for you then!
Also make it mandatory that caravans in convoy must have a minimum of 100m between them, to allow other vehicles to pass safely. Any closer and sensors are to provide the driver with a 500V shock between the arse cheeks.
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There should also be a separate classification (and exam) before you can tow a caravan, included in the testing is you need to prove that you can handle a vehicle towing a 3T caravan around at 100km/hr. What's that? You don't feel safe towing at 100km/hr? No licence for you then!
Also make it mandatory that caravans in convoy must have a minimum of 100m between them, to allow other vehicles to pass safely. Any closer and sensors are to provide the driver with a 500V shock between the arse cheeks.
Symon... you made me giggle over this! But it should be true... if you can't do 95-100km/hr while towing a caravan and leaving enough gap between you and next person, then you and your van shouldn't be on the road, as you are a danger to other road users.
Your sensors delivering that shocking 500v, should also kick in if your speed drops below 95km/hr or failure to provide adequate travelling distances or even a random shock just because the sensor system can!
Maybe we could enlist the assistance of Mandrake with his solar panels to provide the power! You can wire them up to the car and the sensors in the appropriate position, and I will be there to patch up their nasty butt wounds with the ever soothing deepheat!
the Nurse
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Now that I am 45 I have recently purchased a nice "hounds tooth" hat, I travel with my "caravan" (not that I am older I have decided that Jayco is in fact a caravan) and we will not do over 80kms per hour. Symon, it offends me that you would suggest I should... and for the record I have forgot more about driving then you currently know....bloody younger generation...... :laugh: :laugh:
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And a compulsory defensive driver course, and a seperate licence to tow a trailer!
Cheers Chippy :D
I totally agree with you Chippy :cheers:
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Maybe, maybe not. I think it depends on who you ask the Q too.
Back when I got mine, I did the getting my actual licence test for my learners (the nice policeman stuffed up) which I passed and didn't need to do any Q's to do the actual licence. Got it first try. I clocked up a couple of thousand k's on my L plates (which we didn't actually have back then) driving from the Sunny Coast to Port Douglas and back ... and it wasn't with my parents!!!!! I learned to drive when I was young on the farm in a flatbed truck making sure hay bails got to the elevator and up it without a hitch (dad would get pissed if he had to get down and adjust one) so had a heads up on what thing did what and how to point the bloody thing in the right direction and I know exactly where my wheels are ...
I still drive okay. I scare myself every so often, but other drivers scare me more often than not.
I say make them all drive up a highway to the farthest extent and back, through all weather conditions, light and dark, without their actual parents (stand in parent required by law) ... and then test them. ;D At least they would have a more varied experience than up to the local industrial estate on a Saturday for an hours lesson. Each kid will be different.
Kit_e
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My daughter has just got her p plates. Interesting comments so far.
She was allowed to learn in our x8 landcruiser but naturally cannot drive that on her p plates. It took us 1 year to get the 100 hours up and most of the time learnt in my lancer. She had 5 lessons and past first go.
Experience cannot be gained over night and as a parent will always be nervous when she drives by herself.
I can tell you now any one who has driven for a long time will break the rules every day. Not coming to a dead stop, not stopping on the white line at traffic lights etc.
So is getting a licence easy today NO. You can have them learn to tow a trailer, caravan what ever and they do it once then 30 years later they do it but then there is years of experience driving or they may never tow a van ever.
The only thing I would want is a defensive training course added as mentioned earlier. Its the other drivers I worry about.
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Getting a licence is a lot tougher these days. Anyone who says otherwise obviously hasn't tried to get one recently, and like someone said before, it is also a lot easier to lose your licence than it was in the past.
If we want to make it tougher to get one, sure, but also make it tougher to keep it. I also vote for people over 40 to do an annual refresher on road rules as many still don't know how to use a roundabout. People over 60 are to do it 6 monthly, as many don't seem to remember any of the rules.
There should also be a separate classification (and exam) before you can tow a caravan, included in the testing is you need to prove that you can handle a vehicle towing a 3T caravan around at 100km/hr. What's that? You don't feel safe towing at 100km/hr? No licence for you then!
Also make it mandatory that caravans in convoy must have a minimum of 100m between them, to allow other vehicles to pass safely. Any closer and sensors are to provide the driver with a 500V shock between the arse cheeks.
Also make it mandatory that caravans in convoy must have a minimum of 100m between them, to allow other vehicles to pass safely. Any closer and sensors are to provide the driver with a 500V shock between the arse cheeks.
Could this really happen.. We can only live in hope. :D
I had my licence at 15 In NZ. Went along, had a drive and answered some questions.. All good. Went to live in Aus and they laughed at me as I was 16.
Motorbike licence, Turned up on the 1000, copper gave me a bit of a *what happened to the 250* ...Went up the road, turned around with out putting my feet down and drove back - all good.
I don;t think the driving is so much the issue but the lack of common sense seems to have gone.. We only went mad on the stocks banks of the gorges around Christchurch, would only kill our selves.. ;D
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The simplest solution is that here in Vic your licence is valid for a maximum of 10 years, so you have to resit the test every 10 years (5 years after the age of 60).
How many of us could walk into vic roads and pass first go??
How many people do you see not able to reverse park, most are not the young.
As was mentioned in the original post, your licence is not a right.
I heard a wonderful response a few years ago to a question from a motor sport journalist to a world rally champion.
The question was: Do you drive at home (own country) and do you tend to speed a little considering you have no problems taking a rally car at over 200kph through the dirt tracks here??
Response: Yes I drive at home, but I don't speed. If we get caught speeding, the fine is a percentage of your income! (he was on 5+ million per year!)
If fines for offenses were ten times (15+kph over the limit), who would then speed?
Car crushing mandatory at 50kph over the limit, or the cost of the car when new, if it's not your's. Plus a fine.
If you want to get rid of the hoons, make sure they can't get cars or licences again.
Fines for driving without a licence/disqualified should be off the scale.
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I remember seeing a report some time ago, about defensive driving courses, in the study being reported, the group who had done the course had more accidents than the group who had not done the course, they thought this was because the group who had done the course had become over confident in there ability.
If this was true then maybe driving courses is not the panacea every one thinks they could be.
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Interesting comments.
OK, so maybe in my original post I displayed my ignorance about the current driving test - the last time I had anything to do with one was when my daughters took their test around 15 years ago. Regardless of that I still believe (and apparently, so do many others) that the skills tested for a licence are only a small part of the skills needed to be able to drive safely today.
Way back when, we learned by experience - my first lesson occurred not long after passing the test, when my father lent me his car (Morris 1100) to take some friends to the coast. On a long straight bit of road I was trying out top speed (well, wouldn't you at 17) when I picked up a nail in a front tyre and blew it. The next few secondswere very exciting, to say the least, but I managed to bring the car to a stop after swerving all over the road. The road, fortunately, was empty as there was much less traffic in 1963 than there is today - if it had happened on the same road in 2011 someone would have been seriously hurt.
One problem is that cars today are a lot safer than they were 45 years ago - which means you have to be going a lot faster before they go out of control so the consequence of an accident can be far more severe. Maybe when all non-airbag cars have been consigned to the scrap heap the death toll will come down again, but until then we are still going to see bunches of flowers tied to trees and power poles and wonder "How on earth did he/she manage to hit that?" The answer can only be "driving too fast for the conditions" - something which can only be corrected by experience.
And certainly bad driving is not limited to the young!
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I think one of the biggest problems is that kids today are taught to pass a test, not drive a car.
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I think one of the biggest problems is that kids today are taught to pass a test, not drive a car.
And how is that different from the 'old days'? From talking to many of the older generation many of them didn't even do a test, they just rocked up to the cop shop and got a licence.
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I would advocate that car drivers also complete a motor cycle licence test.
At the very least it teaches you defensive strategy, head checks (yes, actually turning your head to see what is about to overtake you), and awareness of what is actually happening around you and far ahead of you.
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As far as licensing goes, i think defensive driving courses should be mandatory.
I also am not sure doing 100 hours or so in a log book makes you a capable driver. I have seen people in their 30's, 40's and 50's not having a clue what they are doing in sticky situations. They have probably clocked up thousands of hours.......I also agree quite a few parents only teach their kids the bad habits that they were taught when first getting their licence. Maybe a 'licence' (use the term loosely) from a driving instructor for the parents to be able to teach the child? Eg. Instructor sits in the back for a few lessons observing what the parent is teaching......
I really don't think you can go past education in difficult, real life scenarios. Skid pans, dirt roads, simulators. Pilots spend lots of hours in simulators before they are allowed near aircraft.
Considering the violence in movies and video games these days i am not sure the 'shock tactics' work either.
In short, i still think it is too easy!!
Years ago there used to be a drag strip on the Gold Coast where as long as your car was roadworthy, you could race.
It was sponsored by the police, heck the police had their own drag car. I know insurance is costly these days but the cost of closing the motorway after a fatality is not cheap either.........
My point is that sure, it is illegal to race but if you want it to stop on public roads, why not do it in a relatively safe environment so they can get it out of their system??
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They have to do 100hrs in a log book, one hour with. Driving instructor is equivalent to 3hrs without but that concession is capped to 30hrs and given that 10hrs with a driving instructor would cost you min $600 its prohibitive for families.There is talk about parents fudging the logbook.
Did i read right a couple a weeks ago in the one of the Sunday papers that the RTA is considering reducing the number of hours a L'r has to do because, What for this, Ya going to love it.
Most kids these don't have two parents, so that don't have someone to take them driving or they have two parents that work full time and can't find the time to give their kids practical experience & the cost involved to lower income families is prohibitive for them to pay for lessons.
I noticed in the NRMA's Open Road that if you use one of their driver trainers, it cuts down the hours needed in all conditions to obtain your license. What makes a NRMA driver trainer any better at teaching then any other driver training school?
Hmm, wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that so many are loosing their license(We all have an extra point now in NSW) that the State has became so reliant on motor traffic infringements as income that they need to have more kids getting the licenses to fill the gap.
The point I want to make is that the road conditions are very different these days to what they were in 1963, coupled with the fact that very few 17 year olds could afford a car that went more than 80-90kph flat out, and I think that the way we are assessed as to our ability to drive on the road without being a menace to ourselves and everyone else should change (become more restrictive) to match the changes in traffic. Too many people seem to think that obtaining a driving licence is a right rather than a privilege
Pipeliner, I agree with you comments, Also, when I first got my license, if I didn't use my blinker at an intersection, when I go home my father was waiting for me, he had already heard what I had been up to.
Cars these day are so sterile compared to the old HQ's and XY's(still remember the first time I drove a Combi at 50mph flat out) that had at lest an inch play in the steering wheel, you knew when you were doing 50 mph.
I think one of the biggest problems is that kids today are taught to pass a test, not drive a car.
A very good point Dave, your spot on.
Dave, as you travel it(Pacific H/Way) as do other here as professional drives and the hours that you spent behind the wheel, some of the things that your seen are truly mind numbing beyond belief that some even have the brain power to wake up of a morning.
I've traveled the Pathetic H/way, sorry I mean the Pacific H/way, regularly(not as a professional, although I drove Taxis for four odd years, as well as hold a MR/R license), for over 25 years between Maclean and Tweed Heads, and I can say the standard of driving is dangerously well below par.
I reckon, get rid of fixed speed cameras and replace them with unmarked H/way patrols like they use to have 25 years ago.
You never knew if the Commodore coming towards you was a copper of not.
Having signs up saying that there is a speed camera ahead must be one of the stupidest things going, apart from someone too stupid to read it(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing013.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php) and then whinge when they are fined for speeding. (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-shocked003.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)
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Getting a licence is a lot tougher these days. Anyone who says otherwise obviously hasn't tried to get one recently, and like someone said before, it is also a lot easier to lose your licence than it was in the past.
If we want to make it tougher to get one, sure, but also make it tougher to keep it. I also vote for people over 40 to do an annual refresher on road rules as many still don't know how to use a roundabout. People over 60 are to do it 6 monthly, as many don't seem to remember any of the rules.
There should also be a separate classification (and exam) before you can tow a caravan, included in the testing is you need to prove that you can handle a vehicle towing a 3T caravan around at 100km/hr. What's that? You don't feel safe towing at 100km/hr? No licence for you then!
Also make it mandatory that caravans in convoy must have a minimum of 100m between them, to allow other vehicles to pass safely. Any closer and sensors are to provide the driver with a 500V shock between the arse cheeks.
If people leave the minimum 100m between them and the vehicle in front, for safe passing, then why cant they do under the speed limit?
And if they are doing the speed limit then they need not leave the 100m in between them and the vehicle in front, as someone that was passing them would obviously be speeding and that is illegal ;D
Bill and Morag
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Only a year or so ago I finished putting my son through his 120hrs before he got his licence and I have just started teaching my daughter. I don't agree with the need to do 120hrs and I don't think it makes people better drivers. Apart from all the basic (control the car skills) I have tried to teach them to thing about 'unexpected' situations. Often I will say as they approach a crest of a hill "what if there is traffic backed up where you can't see?" or "What if there's a broken down car/truck around this bend where you can't see?" Trying to build into their driving to prepare for the unexpected.
Three things stand out to me when it comes to good driving and the first is 'experience'. 120hrs is not going to give you the adequate experience to cope with unexpected situations. Only years of driving can do that.
'Skill' is the next one and possibly defensive driving courses would help to fill that gap. The issue currently is that most courses are horribly expensive and a simply not affordable. Maybe the government should put some of the revenue from fine collection (speed cameras and the like) into free and compulsory driving courses. Years ago my company put me through a single day and it was a valuable experience but again it takes time to learn those skills properly so that they become second nature. A compulsory (paid) course running on weekends over 6-8 weeks would give more time to really learn skills.
The final and most important thing is maturity. No amount of learner driving hours, tests or advanced driving courses can help with this one.
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Got my licence 41 years ago, in Canberra. It required me to drive around the block! 5 mins max, no traffic, no parking (reverse or otherwise) no hill stops or starts, no 3 point turn and no test of the road rules. The tester was in a hurry to get to the pub for lunch ;D Now that was getting your licence easy :-[
Glad things have changed.
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I think the current system is pretty good. There are very few drivers out there that are unable to control a vehicle appropriately.
Of course there are a lot that choose to drive inappropriately and how you prevent that is the difficult issue.
Defensive driving courses sound like a good idea, however through design they tend to be targeted, or at least appealing, to those who already have an interest in being a better driver. And there is none that I am aware of that spend the time on the road teaching what matters - observation and anticipation.
Teaching how to counteract oversteer or understeer is pointless when you havent covered these two.
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The final and most important thing is maturity. No amount of learner driving hours, tests or advanced driving courses can help with this one.
Totally agree 100% with you on that.
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I think the current system is pretty good. There are very few drivers out there that are unable to control a vehicle appropriately
Sorry, but I think you are wrong.....there are very few out there that CAN control their vehicle properly..
If you don't know the basic principles of under and oversteer, and how to correct it ( nobodys implying you need to be rally driver standard ) then you are lacking in some major survival skills..
Sure, if some young ones are taught these skills they will use them to show off, but I'd rather see a young driver CONTROL a car rather than put it in a ditch with someone elses kids inside it ??
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Hi Gronk
Being able to understand and control oversteer and understeer is a great skill, but nowhere near as important as observation and anticipation skills.
You need to control oversteer and understeer when you have exceeded the adhesion of the tyres. This rarely happens (with the exception of striking a patch of oil on bend in the wet maybe) unless you are;
a) Driving like a tool or;
b) Not observing or anticipating what is going on.
If you can see the bend and anticipate what it will be like then you can reduce your speed accordingly and your knowledge of understeer is not needed. You also wont get half way through it, panic and lift your foot causing back off oversteer.
Most defensive/advanced driving courses dont teach reading tree lines, peripheral vision or anticipation. They teach party tricks that look cool and are fun to perform.
The classic is the swerve around a series of cones to replicate a parked car. Yep, you can show your oversteer ability but in real life where do these cars that suddenly appear in front of you come from? If your taught to open your eyes, anticipate what is going on then the imaginary car wont fall from the sky....I guarantee it ;D
cheers
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Most defensive/advanced driving courses dont teach reading tree lines, peripheral vision or anticipation. They teach party tricks that look cool and are fun to perform.
Spot on, This a skill I learnt some 25 years ago while competing in Cross Country, Hare & Hounds and Enduros on an 81 IT465. Read the tree line, not so much the ground in front of you. You would get a sense of where the track was going.
anticipation, It is amazing how many times, you get a feeling that another motorist will, pull out in front of you, turn without indicating or change lane suddenly and you prepare yourself for it.
Another pet hate of mine is,
People don't use their mirrors, you see it all the time. How many times have come up behind someone, indicate to overtake, just get to their drivers door and they crap themselves or at worse move over without looking drifting into your lane.
I get this all the time on the country roads I travel on. You can follow them for miles, can't overtake, as soon as you do, they start drifting across blocking you from passing.
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hmmmm...interesting replys,
the party tricks that look cool and are fun to perform are the exact same party tricks that will save your ass when the person coming the other way isnt anticipating or observing......
Reading tree lines wont save you when when you have been forced off the road, or find yourself sideways, its controlling the vehicle using your party tricks that you have learned in an attempt to regain some control.
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Hi Gronk
Being able to understand and control oversteer and understeer is a great skill, but nowhere near as important as observation and anticipation skills.
You need to control oversteer and understeer when you have exceeded the adhesion of the tyres. This rarely happens (with the exception of striking a patch of oil on bend in the wet maybe) unless you are;
a) Driving like a tool or;
b) Not observing or anticipating what is going on.
If you can see the bend and anticipate what it will be like then you can reduce your speed accordingly and your knowledge of understeer is not needed. You also wont get half way through it, panic and lift your foot causing back off oversteer.
Most defensive/advanced driving courses dont teach reading tree lines, peripheral vision or anticipation. They teach party tricks that look cool and are fun to perform.
The classic is the swerve around a series of cones to replicate a parked car. Yep, you can show your oversteer ability but in real life where do these cars that suddenly appear in front of you come from? If your taught to open your eyes, anticipate what is going on then the imaginary car wont fall from the sky....I guarantee it ;D
cheers
I totally disagree with you Dazzler ??? ??? ??? ???
The situation you describe with a patch of oil on the road only applies to sealed roads!! howerver unsealed roads are a totally different in terms of available grip from the road surface and also very inconsistant with available grip from the road surface!!s
Someone does not need to drive like a "tool" to exceed the adhesion of the tyres on an unsealed road it can and does happen to anyone, its when this does happen that having an understanding of understeer and oversteer can mean the difference between disater and getting youself out of trouble.
I think most of us on here are aware that cars and obsticles do not just drop out of the sky but they are a reality e.g car infront of you slams on their brakes, you drive over a crest and a car has stopped over the other side, you get cut off, irresponsible and underskilled actions of other road users and the list goes on.
I do agree that observation and anticipation are very important but they go hand in hand with other defensive driving skills, im not sure which defensive/advanced driving courses that you have undertaken or watched, but none that I have heard about in any way teach or promote party tricks that look cool and are fun to perform, they teach driving skills that could save your or someone elses life.
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Lots of good points amongst the previous replies. I was lucky enough to spend a week at the advanced driver training centre in Shepparton as part of year 10 schooling. I still remember some of the things learnt there and have no doubt forgotten plenty in the past 30 odd years since then. Learning how a car handles on a skid pan is great and has certainly saved me in the past. Separate licences for trailers and larger vehicles I think would be good. Some testing at licence renewal would be good also. I would also be tempted to say that people who predominantly live and spend time in the city should do a "country driving" course before heading off on long country trips away from the highways and maybe us that live in the country and only head to the city a couple of times per year should not be allowed to drive in the city during peak hour without doing a special "city driving" course.
I remember some time back there was an add on TV that said lots of country accidents happen on bends. The amount of people that drive around left hand bends with the front wheel on the centre white line is incredible. No wonder accidents happen on bends. If they have to react they need to steer sharply inward and that can be dangerous and hard to control. If they had their passenger front wheel on the side white line they have more room to manouver and can actually straighten the line of the car without crossing into the opposing traffic. There are also lots of other common issues such as roundabout usage and other things described in earlier threads. No wonder the government can't work it out, there are so many ideas and so many problems!
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I can see everyone will have their own opinion on this one.
Accidents happen no matter how good a driver you are. I have been in 3 myself over the years and it was the fauilt of the other drivers. They were all over 35 the drivers.
There is never the perfect answer. I tell my daughter to look around , look 100mtres ahead and be ready for anything. We will never stop every accident which is a shame and try every concept out there to prevent them but at the end of the day we all hope it will never happen to our family.
Mark
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Yep, accidents will always happen....but with some decent education, maybe not as many..
Come holiday time...why do we have so many fatalities ??.........impatience and inexperience....lots of city people heading up the coast...inexperienced at overtaking...bit of bad judgement.....head on with a car going the other way..all sounds familiar !!!!
Going round a bend, either too fast or not paying attention...off into the dirt...no idea how to control under/over steer....either a head on or into a tree !!!
You can be a very careful driver, but without some decent driving skills, you are at the mercy of the other road users, but sometimes no matter how good a driver you are, you can't prevent all of the other idiots trying to hit you ..
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but sometimes no matter how good a driver you are, you can't prevent all of the other idiots trying to hit you ..
Sir, Take a prize from the top shelf.
:cheers:
Safe Travels.
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I dont think a few of you are actually taking the time to consider what I have actually said before "totally disagreeing".
Advanced/defensive driving courses are good to have, but they are the cart, not the horse.
Put another way. A defensive driving course where you are taught anticipation and observation would be perfect. It would teach you how to avoid the situation in the first place.
EG A car slams its brakes on in front of you. Were you maintaining a 2sec gap? Were you looking past the car in front and using your peripheral vision to monitor it? If you are not doing this then what are your options? You have 2 options.
Swerve around the braking car or brake yourself. Which makes more sense? Where are you swerving to? Into oncoming traffic? Into a power pole on the verge? Or into a vacant lane on either side. Well if there was a vacant lane then you should have been in it or at least dropped back off the vehicle in front.
Braking is the other option. And its the better option. The only damage you will cause will be rear to rear rather than head on into a stationary object or a vehicle travelling the other way. And because you have been taught observation you can brake the moment the vehicle in front does. Sure you could try and threshold brake as taught at the defensive driving course but you may as well just engage the ABS (most cars today have ABS) which on virtually all vehicles cycles faster and is more efficient than threshold braking (which under stress is very hard to accomplish).
The car stopped on the top of a hill scenario - Were you anticipating that there may be an obstacle over the hill? If not why not? Were you covering your brake pedal as you transitioned from a zone of visibility to a zone of invisibility? Have you slowed as you came into the zone?
Once again what is your option if you havent seen the obstacle till too late? Swerve or brake. Swerve into oncoming traffic? Swerve off onto the verge? Or brake? Braking is probably the safest option as above. Given that you have suddenly arrived at the obstacle you have virtually no time to determine the safest option so will react instinctively. Which for most is to slam on the brakes because they just want it to stop.
Maybe the best way to explain what I am talking about is this. Have you noticed when you see highway patrol cars going real fast that they are not oversteering, understeering or swerving all over the place but generally have a smooth but fast transition through traffic or bends or whatever. Its because observation and anticipation are primary in the training. Those drivers can power slide around eastern creek till the cows come home, but will fail if they dont have obs and anticipation.
Defensive driving courses are fine, but they are not the answer unless they incorporate the other two and I havent seen one that does.
cheers
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Hi guys. This is an interesting thread. I have two points to add to the discussion.
1) Education doesn't always overcome foolish decisions and immaturity. I have a friend who is an excellent father and took his oldest son to traffic court to show him from the coal face some of the things that occur on the road. This was before the oldest some got his license. 3 xmas ago the son who had passed the test took two of his brothers to xmas shopping for the family. On the way home, he lost control of the vehicle and smashed into a tree killing himself and one of his brothers. Though prevantitive courses have their place it is not the be all and end all.
2) my second concern with more licensing is the opportunity for further revenue raising from the government. The focus could shift from driver education to it being a money making exercise. Let's face it we all pay more than enought money to the government
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I'm with you Dazzler. The whole anticipation thing is paramount to better driving. Even sitting at a set of lights on a hill and the car in front starts to roll back. Why was the person so close in the first place, I don't think people pay enough attention to their surroundings like you say.
I'm not saying this is dangerous but why do people also drive at 80 in a 100zone. I see that frustrating people and IMO can be just as dangerous as going to fast..Especially those that feel the need to speed up when they come to an overtaking lane
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x2
No body will ever be as good a driver as the person behind the wheel, we all think that everybody else is a bad driver especialy when we have to follow them, ;D, truth be known we all do things that endanger ourselves & other when we drive but just cant see it, the only way our Learners will get any better is to do the same as we all did, learn from our mistakes & just maybe before anyone gets hurt they might realise that mum or dad may have been right when they said being behind the wheel was dangerous.
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There's an easy way to help educate your children about the risks on the road. Find the nearest road accident rescue unit and ask if you can bring your kids down on a training day / night. See if they can be inside the car when the hydraulic tools are used to tear the car open. The noise will be enough to get most people to slow down. The stories of some of the jobs should fix the rest
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Interesting comments, we all have our own opinion and some comments I can agree with others I disagree with, but you get that.
Just want to add something else to the mix, thats going around this discusion. The vehicle itself. More so the technology in the vehicle itself. I notice 'most' posters here are......older then younger.... and the vehicles we learnt to drive in and lets admit it, pushed to the boundaries of our driving ability to learn and hone our driving skills handle a lot different to todays vehicles.
The last accident I had and other near accidents have all been due to modern technology and offering such things as driver assisted technology, such as ABS, stability and traction control. What we learnt to do and how to handle a vehicle now is all thrown out becasue a vehicle with the likes of stability control, will act the complete opposite of how we learnt to drive. Vehicles are being developed in such a way that the same driver skills and knowledge we learnt are not required.
But at the end of the day regardless of all other factors and weather, it all comes down to the driver, driving beyond there means and ability, including driving knowledge, skill, vehicle and road condition etc.
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Many a valid point here.
I don’t know what group I fall into but being in my late forties I suspect the middle ground ( I peak ages ago).
I believe a license is a lot harder to get than in my day. I think many are right to say observation and anticipation are essential but also so are the skills to handle the particular vehicle you are driving, be it a bike, car, 4wd or truck, I definitely believe that there should be license groups for vehicle size and towing and that everyone should be retested on a regular basis say 5 years.
Risk assessment is the tool that I believe improves with age, added to the fact that most of us become more risk adverse as we age. We see danger in more places through our life experiences but at some point as we get slower and slower we become a risk in ourselves even if we don’t see it.
Perhaps driving is a little like hump day, the young have the reflexes and vigour, the oldies have experience, in the middle somewhere each person peaks, some’s peaks may be higher than others.
I believe that the safety of vehicles these days is vastly superior to the past and in most cases ( I am very suspect of ABS brakes on gravel or wet black soil) the smarts that they are using are very good. Through my work I had to do a driver training school. We drove cars with all the electronic enhancements but they had fitted switches to bypass each feature. The ability of the stability control to aid in slide correction on the skid pan was amazing to say the least and on road ABS without a doubt will out brake most mere mortals.
I have some difficulty coming to grips with the speed thing, the adds still say speed is the biggest killer yet we can buy vehicles capable of over 200 kmph why? My work ute is a 3.0 litre Common rail Nissan, it wouldn’t pull the skin off a custard down low but has speed capability that no 3 tonne 4wd needs. Give me gears to get off the mark and low down grunt not a top speed of 150 plus.
Kids now can buy a 4 cylinder rice burner that would make my old 308 ute look silly, and lets face it at some stage they will test it out, we can only hope they survive life’s lessons and be able to look at the next generation and shake their heads when the time comes.
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I agree with Chippy, a compulsory defensive driver course, and it should be mandatory. There are many P platers who do respect their licence, but there are also just as many drivers who have had their licence for years who still disobey road rules and the law. You can be taught right from wrong but it is only the individual who can decide which path to take. At 17 or 18 i beleive you are old enough to take responsibility for your actions. I mean how many of us have said to our own children, you are old enough to know better and could be talking to an 13 year old.
So i don't beleive in raising the age, not all of us live in a town with access to public transport. It makes it hard when both parents work and you have two kids of working age wanting to work but can't because they don't have a licence. And going to work at an early age would help to install respect, ethics and commitments (i would hope) for the time when they do become of age.
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But when do the drivers do a compulsory defensive driver course. As learners and P plater's do they the neccessary driving requirements to undertake such a course. As you say we all learn at different rates, some still don't have it after many years of driving.
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, but there are also just as many drivers who have had their licence for years who still disobey road rules and the law
Don't confuse being a good driver with obeying all the rules and legislation - the two often have nothing to do with each other. Particularly legislation, which is usually written to protect the stupid. Most road rules, I admit, make sense.
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But when do the drivers do a compulsory defensive driver course. As learners and P plater's do they the neccessary driving requirements to undertake such a course. As you say we all learn at different rates, some still don't have it after many years of driving.
And thats exactly where the problem lies, not having "it" after many many years of driving is not good enough !!! thats why alot of these accidents and deaths happen. Public roads should not be a traiing ground for inexperienced drivers, it places them and everyone else in danger.
The defensive drivers course should be done and passed before people even get to go for their licence.
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The defensive drivers course should be done and passed before people even get to go for their licence.
So before a driver even has any knowledge of the basics you want them doing a defensive driving course. Sorry mate, have to disagree with that call.
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Question....So how many of us drivers could drive in the bathurst car race and we have years of driving experiance.
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Question....So how many of us drivers could drive in the bathurst car race and we have years of driving experiance.
ME ME ME PLEASE......... ;D
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Question....So how many of us drivers could drive in the bathurst car race and we have years of driving experiance.
Bathurst is completly differant as all cars are going the same way while cutting corners and using the whole width of the road, Years of driving means nothing as well, I know people who have had a licence for more than 40 years but would be lucky to drive more than an hour a day.
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So before a driver even has any knowledge of the basics you want them doing a defensive driving course. Sorry mate, have to disagree with that call.
At least with a course of some description, they will learn the basics a hell of a lot quicker than ol' mum and dad can teach them..
And another pet gripe....what are people thinking when they let the learner drivers out onto the local freeway ?? they learn how to keep the car in a lane....and watch everyone else whizz past them at 110K's ???...what a dumb place to get their hrs up....teachs them nothing..
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Yeah look i am sorry Davepatrol but i am not sure how many laps you would last in Bathurst or any other car race for that matter, professional or not, without high degrees of observation and anticipation.
I would have thought professional racing car drivers would be very safe drivers on public roads, partly due to their reputations.
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Well now , talking to my niece the other day about the licence system, she was rather affronted that she would be required to go through the Ls then ps rigarmarole when she finally becomes old enough to " go " for her licence , she being all of 15 ,,, she made the point that she has been driving since she was 8yrs old [ 6'2" tall at 14yrs old ] and can drive and reverse the semi with trailer , drive the tipper and dog trailer [including reversing] drive a tractor , drive a header , quad bike , motorcycle , v8 landcruiser ute and the 200series gxl ,
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Yeah look i am sorry Davepatrol but i am not sure how many laps you would last in Bathurst or any other car race for that matter, professional or not, without high degrees of observation and anticipation.
I would have thought professional racing car drivers would be very safe drivers on public roads, partly due to their reputations
All I'm saying is you can't compere racing car drivers in races to every day car drivers on the public roads. And I agree with needing high degrees of observation and anticipation.
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Yeah look i am sorry Davepatrol but i am not sure how many laps you would last in Bathurst or any other car race for that matter, professional or not, without high degrees of observation and anticipation.
I would have thought professional racing car drivers would be very safe drivers on public roads, partly due to their reputations
All I'm saying is you can't compere racing car drivers in races to every day car drivers on the public roads. And I agree with needing high degrees of observation and anticipation.
Ok, i do agree with that ;D
I am thinking instead of defensive driving courses, you should take prospective young drivers to a dam (somerset, boondooma, moogerah etc for us) during peak season (Easter etc).
Let them drive a boat or similar for awhile. May very teach a bit of observation and anticipation ;D
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Well now , talking to my niece the other day about the licence system, she was rather affronted that she would be required to go through the Ls then ps rigarmarole when she finally becomes old enough to " go " for her licence , she being all of 15 ,,, she made the point that she has been driving since she was 8yrs old [ 6'2" tall at 14yrs old ] and can drive and reverse the semi with trailer , drive the tipper and dog trailer [including reversing] drive a tractor , drive a header , quad bike , motorcycle , v8 landcruiser ute and the 200series gxl ,
well done to your niece for being able to wheel all of those things, and Im sure she will be a good driver once she does get her licence, however, the goose with no brains who has never been taught to drive properly is the one that will always bring you un stuck, whether it be through speeding, towing horse floats at 30kmh, impatience, or whatever.
We might think we are reasonably good drivers, but remember Mr.Magoo is out there among us and we can anticipate this, but when it all turns pear shaped, I will be glad I did my defensive driving course..
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At least with a course of some description, they will learn the basics a hell of a lot quicker than ol' mum and dad can teach them..
And another pet gripe....what are people thinking when they let the learner drivers out onto the local freeway ?? they learn how to keep the car in a lane....and watch everyone else whizz past them at 110K's ???...what a dumb place to get their hrs up....teachs them nothing..
When you think about it it teaches them a lot actually, maybe too much
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So before a driver even has any knowledge of the basics you want them doing a defensive driving course. Sorry mate, have to disagree with that call.
Your missing the point ???, how could anyone do a defensive driving course before knowing basic driving skills ??? ??? ??? ??? think about what your saying!!!!
The basics and defensive driving should be learnt before you are able to sit for your licence. Like I said before the public roads should not be a training ground where inexperienced drivers learn the basics. (for their good and everone else's)
Obtaining a licence has nothing to do with driving skill, its all about testing if you know the road rules.
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This is getting as good as the electrical section ;D
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This is getting as good as the electrical section ;D
Might be time for the thread to be closed ........
Cheers Chippy :D
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Based on my observations last night I now believe driving to be so easy that a licence is not necessary.
Heading towards Melb on the Geelong Road between Werribee and Laverton.
Passed a little blue Metro with once-funky 'shades' stickers.
The 20-something Miss driving it had here white I Pod ear phones in and was tapping away to the music on the steering wheel.
I know it was before dusk as she didn't have her cabin light on, but was obviously still able to READ the ADVERTISING BROCHURE she had open and SPREAD ACROSS THE 'SPOKES' OF HER STEERING WHEEL !!!!!??????
WWhat the FCUK? >:D Unfortunately no :police:handy to 'compliment' her on her 'skill'. >:(
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food for thought.
Some coal mines use simulator training for there operators before sitting them behind the wheel of a real truck or other bits of gear. Crash and burn without the damage or injury. Gets you used to all the controls and you can throw all sorts of scenarios at you. Rain, ice, fire, breakdowns, emergency stops and so on. I'm not saying it's feasible for these to be used for getting a licence but we are in the computer age?
Just wish the simulator could teach me that a DC-DC charger is better for charging a battery then your car alternator...or is that the other way around? ;D
Cheers
Geoff
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Your missing the point ???, how could anyone do a defensive driving course before knowing basic driving skills ??? ??? ??? ??? think about what your saying!!!!
The basics and defensive driving should be learnt before you are able to sit for your licence. Like I said before the public roads should not be a training ground where inexperienced drivers learn the basics. (for their good and everone else's)
Obtaining a licence has nothing to do with driving skill, its all about testing if you know the road rules.
Interesting concept, where and when do they learn and do all this
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Interesting concept, where and when do they learn and do all this
Wherever they hold the defensive driving course I guess and once they are 16 or earlier it doesnt matter when as long as its before they sit for their licence.
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Wherever they hold the defensive driving course I guess and once they are 16 or earlier it doesnt matter when as long as its before they sit for their licence.
You are for real, aren't you. your not just taking the ....
It's a bit like saying while you are still crawling and before you can walk, we are going to teach you how to run a marathon
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You are for real, aren't you. your not just taking the ....
It's a bit like saying while you are still crawling and before you can walk, we are going to teach you how to run a marathon
Actually yes I am what could be so wrong with having driving experience before you get your licence ??? ??? ???
I new how to drive car and truck at least five years before I got my licence then when I hit the roads all I had to worry about was the road rules and looking out for inexperienced drivers.
I dont really think its a massively wild concept!!!!!
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No, not a massively wild concept, I am all for driver's learning and gain experience. Just in todays world for a lot of families they are experiencing difficulties in try to get the learner drivers to come up with 120hrs driving time as it is.
While the concept may sound good in theory, the logistics involved make it very difficult to implement.
While you and many other older drivers may have had the advantage of being allowed to drive on private property prior to gaining your driver's license, the vast majority of todays drivers, just don't have that luxury.
So out of curiosity, when did you do your Defensive Driving Course?
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No, not a massively wild concept, I am all for driver's learning and gain experience. Just in todays world for a lot of families they are experiencing difficulties in try to get the learner drivers to come up with 120hrs driving time as it is.
While the concept may sound good in theory, the logistics involved make it very difficult to implement.
While you and many other older drivers may have had the advantage of being allowed to drive on private property prior to gaining your driver's license, the vast majority of todays drivers, just don't have that luxury.
So out of curiosity, when did you do your Defensive Driving Course?
Hey Alnjan
Maybe it is only a good idea in theory but I think it would be worth a crack because it cant be a worse idea than what they have now, Im sure if the Government directed the sufficient funds into it that the logistics involved to implement a scheme could be greatly improved.
Yes I was lucky to be able to learn to drive on private property way before I obtained my licence, but why couldn't the Government assist with funding to create places where people can learn to drive out of harms way.
I have not done a defensive driving course but where we grew up was only unsealed roads and we learnt to handle a vehicle in most situations, our Dad would even take us out to different surfaces on our property and teach us how to hold a drift at speed and other manouvers that may have seemed like hooning at the time but also gave us the skills required to be better drivers when we did eventually get our licence and get out onto public roads.
Unfortunately we do not have acces to a large property anymore so my children will not have the same opportunity that we had but I will get them as much experience as possible before they get their licence, they already have motorbike experience at the age of 5 and 6 when we camp on private property they have turns at sitting on my lap steering at low speed (10-20kph) and I will give them more opportunities as they grow older.
I will also be putting them through defensive driving courses to add to their skills as soon as possible.
This way I will not be sending them out onto public roads with little or no experience and having skills of how to react when operating vehicles in different situations.
I think this is the very least I can do for my children because I do not want them to become another statistic.
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I believe something needs to be done, I know time restrictions are a problem but realistically I would like my kids to take every precaution before entering the traffic with other people who think they don't break the rules (they do), that don't speed (they do) and people who are invincible on the roads...I am not just talking about P Platers.
I got my license 18 years ago and shouldn't have gotten my license. I knew all the road rules ( I love reading), I could park a car on a hill and take off in manual, I could follow my left or rights but I couldn't parrallel park (still can't...only go in forward) and couldn't park my little car in between 2 cars (I can say quite proudly I can do that now). Knowing I had failed them in my test, I should have really been made to resit it but my instructor let me through. Having said all that I have never been in an accident or scraped my car.
Only 2 weeks ago did I witness a young lady (not on P Plates) driving past me (yep rather quickly) with her left leg on the seat so her knee was under her chin and her right arm resting out of the window. I would hate to see if a car pulled out quickly in front of her as her reaction time wouldn't have been there.
Little things like the above frustrates me as my husband being a paramedic gets to scrape them out of the car and try to fix them up.
Just my little say.
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I am all for parents helping their kids out as much as possible, there should be more off it. I kids aren't allowed to skin their knees and get dirt under their finger nails they will never learn.
I think back to when I got my driver's license and when my kids got their driver's license and I can say quiet comfortably, I had it very easy and very cheap, might I add. But either way, kids learning to drive a vehicle on private property, to learning to drive for the first time on the road, they both have to learn to drive with other traffic and really that is a skill that unfortunately some people just have trouble learning or getting used to. Some get it, some don't.
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I am all for parents helping their kids out as much as possible, there should be more off it. I kids aren't allowed to skin their knees and get dirt under their finger nails they will never learn.
I think back to when I got my driver's license and when my kids got their driver's license and I can say quiet comfortably, I had it very easy and very cheap, might I add. But either way, kids learning to drive a vehicle on private property, to learning to drive for the first time on the road, they both have to learn to drive with other traffic and really that is a skill that unfortunately some people just have trouble learning or getting used to. Some get it, some don't.
I agree :cheers:
The ones that dont get it shouldnt really be driving on our roads putting themselves and everyone else in danger.
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... 2sec gap?
is that even a rule anymore?? Nobody does it
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Grave dig! :cup:
are you bored today??
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Grave dig! :cup:
are you bored today??
Cammo is due to get his L's at xmas just gone, but I cant get the **** off the computer long enough.. I know he has to do 120 or 160 hours... but he hasn't even looked into that yet.. :(
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yeah! I'm hearing you. some seem not to keen to get it. I couldn't wait, learners asap, test asap, 1st = failed, 2nd = got it.
My youngest is doing lessons now, She has done the hrs driving without any decent input from her mum ( but that's another issue :( )
She's somewhat struggling with the manual but she will get there soon I hope!
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It's getting harder, and is probably about right now imho. 12 months with a log book across different driving types.
When I got mine it was 3 months on learners, when my brother got his, it was 6 weeks. When my mum got hers it was, about time you got a license you've been driving long enough from the local cop. He didn't even cross of any categories, so mum was licensed to o drive anything.
14 months and my eldest can get his learhers time will tell
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I couldn't wait, learners asap, test asap, 1st = failed, 2nd = got it.
Same.. I was waiting at RTA 35mins before they opened to get in first off the block! Got L's first off, bike test was a joke, and if you had your full car license, you automatically got your bike full license on passing your P plate test! Got all truck licenses first go too ;D **** Im good.
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Got my L's first go then P's 6 weeks later first go. Bike test was riding around the block on the motor bike with a copper watching just standing in the street.
Mr Plod took my licence away from me (P's) a few months later but I got my opens in NSW after telling a few porky pies. No computers back then Thank god. ;D
My oldest boy is on his opens. 3 goes for L's, 2 goes for P's, now on his opens
My youngest boy just got his P's. 2 goes for L's, 3 goes for P's.
Both had in excess of 120 hours logged in a book before they went for their P's.