ATM and towing limits

[Daz7]

We've been looking around at the various camper options and how they relate to the pretty poor legal towing limits that swb Jeep has.

Came across an interesting 12 month old CT a few days ago, and the owner suggested that I call the manufacturer to get the warranty history of his CT and the local agent to get his service history (the trailer had a recent service after a long outback trip).

His local agent won't return any calls (even though I'd be happy to pay them to look the CT over as I'm interstate)

The manufacturer, came up with the info asked of them, however when I was talking on the phone (this guy ended up being the national sales manager) about our tow vehicles limits, he tells me that as the ATM is 1500kg it would be illegal for us to tow the thing.

Now I've gone looking for this ruling and can't find anything. Am I being fed bullShit?

[D4D]

What is the towing limit on your Jeep?

What camper are you looking at?

[Daz7]

900kg tow rating.

[D4D]

Well if you can only tow 900kg and the ATM is 1500kg then yes illegal to tow. Am I missing something?

[Daz7]

Isn't ATM the weight of the trailer along with the heaviest load that its capable of carrying?

I always thought that towing limits were just that, you can tow something that weights up to that number. Just because ATM states 1.5 or 2 tonne if you just keep weight to the tow vehicles towing limits alls good.

[D4D]

What's the Tare?

BTW there's no chance you won't be overweight, sorry for being harsh but buy a suitable car of different camper.

[Daz7]

What's the Tare?

BTW there's no chance you won't be overweight, sorry for being harsh but buy a suitable car of different camper.

Tare appears to be around 700kg on that one.

Agree with your comments on suitable cars and campers, just trying to sort through the minefield.

[Brij]

So the Jeep has a  maximum towing capacity of 900kg. So the maximum weight that it can tow (including ball weight) is 900kg (regardless of the trailer's ATM)

The trailer has an ATM rating of 1500kg so the maximum the trailer can weigh (including ball weight) is 1500kg.
The trailer tares at 700kg.

So therefore the Jeep can tow the trailer so long as it doesn't weigh more than 900kg (or the trailer plus 200kg of gear loaded in it).

So it can legally tow it on paper, however in the real world you will probably end up loading more than 200kg in it assuming of course the tare is only 700kg, wouldn't be surprised if it is more. Have heard chinese whispers of the "lighter" campers being "tared off" for rego before the tent is fitted, which means you could possibly be 900kg you start loading it up.

Whilst in real life you are probably never going to be legally "stung" by being a few 100kg over your towing limit, I wouldn't condone it and you really need to do your homework to know for sure whether you are at or over the limit.

Peter

[Steffo1]

So the Jeep has a  maximum towing capacity of 900kg. So the maximum weight that it can tow (including ball weight) is 900kg (regardless of the trailer's ATM)

So it can legally tow it on paper, however in the real world you will probably end up loading more than 200kg in it assuming of course the tare is only 700kg, wouldn't be surprised if it is more. Have heard chinese whispers of the "lighter" campers being "tared off" for rego before the tent is fitted, which means you could possibly be 900kg you start loading it up.

Whilst in real life you are probably never going to be legally "stung" by being a few 100kg over your towing limit, I wouldn't condone it and you really need to do your homework to know for sure whether you are at or over the limit.Peter

Insurance, insurance, insurance!!!

[oldmate]

Maybe this trailer is better suited ?
http://www.campertrailerstore.com.au/camper-trailers/motorcycle-camper-trailers-motorbike-camper-trailer

[#jonesy]

Whilst in real life you are probably never going to be legally "stung" by being a few 100kg over your towing limit, I wouldn't condone it and you really need to do your homework to know for sure whether you are at or over the limit.

Peter

(For vic at least) Right on being legally able to tow but fines can be HUGE. In vic it is based on % over (pretty sue most states are the same). Biggest fine is 15-20% over (135-180kg in this case). Is $1,444.
After that you are off to court.   Made a booboo on this one.  See post form Brij a bit later on.  I usually deal with heavy vehicles so the adjustments etc don't make much difference.

Max you can tow is the LESSER of the vehicle max tow rating, towbar rating, hitch rating, trailer ATM
  Also brakes for trailers over 750, which makes the 900 kg a bit of an odd amount.

Would be worth looking at upgrading your towbar if Jeep offer a better one   

[Daz7]

So the Jeep has a  maximum towing capacity of 900kg. So the maximum weight that it can tow (including ball weight) is 900kg (regardless of the trailer's ATM)

This is what I also thought and what prevoked me to ask the question of the forum. Have been over the NSW RMS website too and can't find any ruling mentioning ATM weights other than explaining what the ATM weight is.

Went out to the NSW 4wd show yesterday and took a lot of notice of the various tare and ATM weights stamped on the drawbars of the campers on display.

Heres two....

UEV 345 - 490kg tare
Cub Daintree LE: 711kg tare

Whats interesting with these two is that I can't for the life of me see how the cub would be over 200kg heavier and makes me wonder if the UEV is weighted without rooftop tent, fridge etc...

Its getting to the stage that I'm feeling I'm going to have to carry around a set of corner weighting scales when we go CT shopping to do my own weight tests before buying.

[#jonesy]

Search NSW RTA for "towing"
FOLLOW THIS LINK
You are after page 8

NOTE :   On page 10 load hanging out the back with red flag is illegal in Vic as it exceeds the rear overhang.
Search of RTA for "overhang" also confirms that the pic on page 10 is wrong.

[Daz7]

Search NSW RTA for "towing"
FOLLOW THIS LINK
You are after page 8

Thanks, went through all of that before . Just says that you can't tow more than the maximum tow rating of the tow vehicle/tow bar/tyres (if stated by the manufacturer). Nothing about the plated ATM of the trailer having to be less than the towing capacity of the vehicle.

TOWING RATIO REQUIREMENT
The loaded mass of the trailer must not exceed the lesser of:
Rated capacity of the towbar and tow coupling.
Maximum towing capacity of the vehicle.
Maximum carrying capacity of the trailer.
Maximum rated carrying capacity of the tyres.

If the vehicle manufacturer has not specified the maximum towing mass, the maximum towing mass is:
One and a half times the unladen mass of the towing vehicle, provided that the trailer is fitted with brakes which are connected and in working order, or
The unladen mass of the towing vehicle if the trailer
does not require brakes. Vehicles with a manufacturer’s gross combination mass (GCM) more than 4.5 tonne may tow in accordance with the above requirements.The GCM is the gross combination mass of the car and loaded trailer.

[Brij]

TOWING RATIO REQUIREMENT
The loaded mass of the trailer must not exceed the lesser of:
Rated capacity of the towbar and tow coupling. (900kg in your case)
Maximum towing capacity of the vehicle. (I'll assume for the sake of the exercise this is also 900kg)
Maximum carrying capacity of the trailer. (Basically the trailer's ATM)
Maximum rated carrying capacity of the tyres. (A bit of a no brainer, the trailer tyres "should" be at least be rated to carry the trailer's full ATM, other wise the tyres would be outside the requirements of the trailer's tyre placard  )

So therefore in your case you can tow a trailer with an ATM over 900kg, but at the time you are towing it it can't weigh more than 900kg because 900kg is the "lesser of" of the relevant numbers.

Peter

[Brij]

(For vic at least) Right on being legally able to tow but fines can be HUGE. In vic it is based on % over (pretty sue most states are the same). Biggest fine is 15-20% over (135-180kg in this case). Is $1,444.
After that you are off to court.

Pretty much right but......

If you were to weighed by the authorities a "little" amount is taken of the measured weight (just like a few km/h is taken off your speed when you get a speeding ticket). This "measurement adjustment" (as dictated by the National Transport Commission, NTC) for a single axle with 2 tyres/axle is 300kg. (A tandem 4 tyres/axle group is 500kg). So therefore if the single axle trailer was weighed at 1500kg, 300kg is taken off the number before a ticket is written out.

Sounds ludicrous but these measurement adjustments were designed for heavy vehicles, however with no alternatives for light vehicles they still have to be used.

In relation to the penalties - yes they are categorised into percentage based overloads, 5% increments. However a "minor" offence is an overload of 0-5% or up to 0.5t, which ever is the greater.

In the case of a 900kg towing capacity, with a trailer that weighs 1500kg,  1500kg - 300kg measurement adjustment = 1200kg. A 300kg (less than 0.5t) overload so therefore a "minor" mass infringement (about $250).

If the trailer weighed 1800kg (with the same 900kg towing limit), 1800kg - 300kg measurement adjustment = 1500kg, or a 600kg overload which is greater than the 0.5t "minor" offence. In fact we suddenly jump to a 66% overload which thoeretically should end up in court (since it is over 20%).

Don't like the system? Join the club. Just another case of legislation designed for a particular issue (in this case all the mass regs and work instructions etc are designed for heavy vehicles), but due to no other regs to apply to light vehicles that is what we are stuck with.

Hence my comment earlier

Whilst in real life you are probably never going to be legally "stung" by being a few 100kg over your towing limit

.

Peter

[kylarama]

That's how I've always understood it Brij.  I used to borrow a mates tandem that had an ATM of 2800kg, but the tow cars max was 2500kg.  No issue so long as I stayed under 2500kg.

I'd say this national sales manager either

A:  Interprets the rules differently.

B:  Legal ar$e covering for the company.  ie "but your honor, the manufacturer said it was fine"

[oldmate]

Serious is that hard to work out?  The max your car can tow is 900kg as per your car/towbar. It is that the max.

If your trailer has a tare of 850kg and an ATM of 1500, than the max you can load is 50kg. If your trailers tare is 100kg, than load it up with 800kg. The only thing you have to watch is your max down all weight also, but load appropriately. If the trailer has a tare of 950kg, than it is illegal for you to tow
It's not rocket science!