MySwag.org The Off-road Camper Trailer Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Matto on April 22, 2012, 10:04:07 PM
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OK - let's get the following points out of the way first:
- I should have bought a Warn
- You get what you pay for
- It may be cheap now but it'll break when you need it most and you'll be stuck costing you more money
- SCA only sell cheap Chinese junk
- I should have bought a Warn 8)
Right. Down to business. So I now have this:
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/s720x720/535347_376877072350619_100000849879297_1001847_758096730_n.jpg)
...sitting on my dining room table. $490 from the local SCA. It's the 12,000lb version, strung with synthetic rope. From the other thread ("tigerz11 on sale"), there seems good reason to believe that this is the same winch that BCF sell under their XTM brand. Following on from that, there's a good probability that this is the same winch that Tigerz11 sell under their brand. No way to tell for sure, and it's completely possible that the tigerz11 winches are made from better steel, have better gears, etc, while this one is made from jelly. If so, let me tell you it's at least VERY HEAVY jelly.
So far, my research on these things has indicated the following points:
- They're slow, based on the gearing needed to get the 12,000lb rating.
- They have a low duty cycle, especially with a lot of rope left on the drum.
- They need new quality marine grease as a priority.
- The solenoid pack isn't flash, and needs proper waterproofing to stay alive. Long term plan is to replace with solid-state pack.
- You need to really watch the heat build up, and only winch for short bursts.
All that, I can live with. There seem to be a few people out there (4WDA forums, AULRO, couple of other vehicle-specific forums) that have been running what looks to be the same winch for a few years now, generally with good results. These people seem to have been dishing out much more abuse than I'm likely to.
There is a lot of bad blood out there for SCA winches, but most of that seems to relate to the 9,500lb winch. There's some people who seem to have had these 12k ones fail, but they seem in the vast minority compared to the 9.5's. Heck - there's some people out there that bought the 12k version, were very happy with themselves, took it home, ready a forum thread about someone else not liking them, so took it straight back in it's box for a refund. To each their own, I guess.
I don't intend this to be a "should I take back my new winch" thread. I hope it doesn't degrade into a "should've bought a Warn, everything else is crap" / "Warn are overpriced" fight either. As noted above, I've already covered this for you. 8)
What I do want to do with this is use it as a place to catalogue my adventures with this winch, starting with the purchase and the fitting. From there, we'll give it a few trial runs to see how it goes, and then load it up and test it properly somewhere. I'm hoping that so long as I stay within the parameters outlined, I will get a good run out of it. Time will tell.
Hopefully I'll get time this week to strip it down and re-grease, clock the gearbox housing, mount it to the car and get it all wired in. It'll probably be a very basic setup at first, but with time we'll relocate the control box and wire in some in-cab controls. For now though, I'll be happy to get it on the bar and turning.
I'll let you know how I get on!
Cheers!
Matto :)
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Make sure you take all the rope off and power-in under tension otherwise you will have to cut it off and buy a new rope.
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- The solenoid pack isn't flash, and needs proper waterproofing to stay alive. Long term plan is to replace with solid-state pack.
Cheers!
Matto :)
Not sure but may already have one of these, a solid state one that is. :cheers:
Will be keen to follow your thread on these, as its what Im going to fit ( at the price if it gets me out of the poo once a year its :cup: )
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That seems afair bit to part with for a cloths line >:D
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Matto,
Looks very similar to my tigerz 11. Although different solinoid by the sounds of it.
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Make sure you take all the rope off and power-in under tension otherwise you will have to cut it off and buy a new rope.
Will do. That was going to be the first test for it - try and tension the rope by pulling the car up the backyard. 8) Will probably have to pull the rope all the way off to get the gearbox off anyway. Am contemplating clocking the motor as well to get the terminals protected a bit more on top of the motor, and also to give an excuse to pull the motor off and have a look-see. Thoughts?
Not sure but may already have one of these, a solid state one that is. :cheers:
It very well may. I've not even had a chance to open the control box yet. Will hopefully do so tonight, and let you know what I find. It's heavier than I expected.
That seems afair bit to part with for a cloths line >:D
It may be, but it's pretty and orange. My plan is to spool it out across our camp, then offer it's use free of charge to the bevy of Swedish Backpackers that seem to follow me around, for the drying out of their small bikinis. I'm sure Mrs Matto won't see a problem with that at all.
Looks very similar to my tigerz 11. Although different solinoid by the sounds of it.
We'll see - once I get it open I'll take some photos of the insides.
Quote from Ropes in the other thread, talking about the BCF version of the SCA winch that he has just acquired:
I went with my gut and took the plunge and bought the BCF one.
I pulled it apart to check grease etc before installing it and compared it to my mates TigerzII Grande and the internals are identical ;D (he was a little disgruntled after shelling out $845 for his)
As you say though, the warranty is also a difference.
Time will tell. If the solenoid is indeed different, I'll probably upgrade it relatively shortly. Seems the OEM solenoid pack is one of the major complaints about these winches.
Cheers guys - this has been a much more positive discussion than I thought I was about to get into! ;D ;D :cheers:
Txt from the wife today at lunch time "That winch is huge!!!!" - yes, yes it is.
Cheers!
Matto :)
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...good reason to believe that this is the same winch that BCF sell under their XTM brand.
Given that Super Cheap....BCF and Rays outdoors are all owned by the Super Cheap group i would say this is highly probable :cheers:
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I'll keep an eye on this thread closely.
I went into supercheap on the weekend for a look-see. Seemed to be only about 25kgs which is good compared to the 9500lb wire cable version at 37kgs. Still a bit reluctant to put it on the front of the cruiser though (standard suspension, heavy bullbar, heavy dual-batteries... add a winch??).
Hard to go past at $500 though. $500 is still $500 wasted if I never use it - although perhaps it will give me peace of mind when tackling tough tracks.
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although perhaps it will give me peace of mind when tackling tough tracks.
That's why we took the plunge on ours. The Pathy isn't a heavy car, but once you add 1.5t of camper on the back, what was easy suddenly takes on a different persona. To me, a winch recovery is a bit more controllable than a snatch, especially with the additional weight of the camper involved.
I'll be sure to take lots of photos of the winch, as well as the install.
Cheers!
Matto :)
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From memory you can only rotate the gearbox end on these winches, and maybe the motor 180' there is a small dowel cast into the end plate that the motor bolts up to. Happy to be proven wrong, it's been awhile.
Good to see people doing a bit of research and then making an informed purchase, hope it's a good thing for ya.
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Your exactly right Matto the BCF, Rays and Super Cheap winches are all identical except the stickers.
Same as the Ridge Ryder gear all the same except the stickers.
As someone already said Super Cheap Group own BCF, Rays, Gold Cross Cycle and now Amart All Sport and Rebel Sport.
The main complaint we have had with the winches is indeed the selinoid.
But to be 100% honest the selinoids can go bad on any winch.
I do hope you like the winch and if you need a hand mounting it just give me a holler...
Bill and Morag
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From memory you can only rotate the gearbox end on these winches, and maybe the motor 180' there is a small dowel cast into the end plate that the motor bolts up to.
bugger. Will pull it apart and see, but that's OK if it can't be rotated. I would like the terminals on top to give them a bit more protection, but on the rear they're less likely to have mud and crap build up on them I guess, so it's 6 of one, half a dozen of another...
I do hope you like the winch and if you need a hand mounting it just give me a holler...
Cheers Bill - much appreciated. We'll see how we go - I might need to call on your expertise closer to the day. I'm sure it'll be a good investment for us.
Here's a photo of the solenoid inside the control box. Not the greatest, but should be enough for those In The Know to spot what it is. I intend to pull the control box apart again and seal it all up with silicone to make it a bit more weatherproof, hopefully give the solenoid a bit longer life.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-khabFlWMS58/T5U8a9vufEI/AAAAAAAATcI/KDCbpRC9E14/s640/IMG_7533.jpg)
Cheers!
Matto :)
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Matto ,,,, back packers mmm,,,, DREAMING :laugh:
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Yeh Speewah just dream on :-*
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One of the Tigerz type solenoids, check the smaller screws for tightness.
I have a brand one new in the shed and can't tight'n one screw enough to be happy it's water resistant.
Think I'll end up buying a Albright and mount it in the engine bay.
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It looks like the same winch as my tigerz11 if you need to turn. The grearbox like I did here is an instruction video
Tigerz11 12000lb Gear Box Turning 2009 Winch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt-VpTs4AUY#)
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The one at my local has grey rope, is it just older stock. They let me open it up and it has the same solenoid in the control box. The engage lever and stickers look the same.
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Looks like it is fitted with a contactor not a set of solenoids
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Looks like it is fitted with a contactor not a set of solenoids
That's what I thought too, looking at it. Def not seperate solenoids.
It's different to the Titan contactor that Tigerz11 use, but is probably a similar beast.
Either way, I'm pretty happy that it's not a pack of 4 old solenoids stuck in there.
The one at my local has grey rope, is it just older stock. They let me open it up and it has the same solenoid in the control box. The engage lever and stickers look the same.
I would guess that you're assuming right - it's just older stock with grey rope instead of orange. This particular winch unit has been sold for a while under various names. About the only thing I'd be concerned abotu with older stock is whether it had an older solenoid pack, but it looks like you're in luck there.
It looks like the same winch as my tigerz11 if you need to turn. The grearbox like I did here is an instruction video
Cheers Oldblade - that'll come in very handy.
One of the Tigerz type solenoids, check the smaller screws for tightness.
Thanks for the tip - will do!
Cheers!
Matto :)
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:D Well I can't say anything, cause if it was on special a week earlier one would be sitting on my patrol instead on the ironman one. They said it was $925 off special against the $899 of the monster.... Was looking for counter weight so wire vs rope not so much an issue, however, am still waiting for S/cheep to have sale so can pick up some grey dyneema as an extension rope.
Ironman have competition grade solenoids for around $110 as a ball park figure if you ever need them...... funny the winch would seem to be similar to the monster..... especially in the 'old' wiring diagram... the new one the black & yellow are swapped hence why mine was going reverse. Do the instructions look similar, beats me about the tow ball bit ???
Paul
hope it can be read, had to shrink it to fit....
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That's what I thought too, looking at it. Def not seperate solenoids.
It's different to the Titan contactor that Tigerz11 use, but is probably a similar beast.
Cheers!
Matto :)
Tigerz sell 2 types of solenoids, I have one of each and have pulled mine right down
and like i said ("I'll be fitting an Albright at a later date")
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My $2 (inflation) worth:
Never had a winch as I have never needed one. Personal opinion too much work required to keep them going especially when traversing water and mud. I make sure I travel with mates who have them. ;D
I understand some people travel the tracks that do require them and they get used all the time but I bet alot have winches that have never been used. But I suppose that can be said on many things we buy.
Ps Matto you should have got a warn ;D
Mark
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Good onya Matto
I see/here people bag out everything form this to that, but when asked did they own one they say no just heard this and that.
You doing this will be interesting as its form the owner.
Harry :D
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Never had a winch as I have never needed one.
That's OK - I've got no problems admitting I'm a bad driver! ;D
I've never needed one either, and don't envisage that I'll start dropping my car into big bog holes any time soon. That said, I do tend to avoid anything that looks marginally interesting when we're out by ourselves, simply because I don't like getting stuck. I'm looking forward to a bit better security by having the big lump of lead bolted into the front bar. Am happy with the maintainence requirements - I do similar with the brand new generator that I've not had a chance to use in anger yet.
As for the Warn - you win a prize! I'm amazed that D4D in particular left it go through to the keeper :D.
I see/here people bag out everything form this to that, but when asked did they own one they say no just heard this and that.
Cheers Harry - that's part of the reason I'm doing this. Put your money where your mouth is. It might burn me badly, but I figure I can get it installed and running with only minimal investment in things like grease and waterproofing. If it stuffs up, I'll take it back and won't be too far out of pocket.
I'm quietly confident though. :)
Cheers for the encouragement!
Matto :)
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But now you have a winch Matto..... I love you long time :-*
If we camp together I know you will winch me out ......I hope ;D
Mark
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As for the Warn - you win a prize! I'm amazed that D4D in particular left it go through to the keeper :D.
That's why I didn't need to post anything, you already knew what I would say :)
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:D If you need a hand I'm back next Wednesday.... angle grinders.. alloys bullbars >:D ... I can help. Not long ago got practice on mine... mind you I cheated a bit buying a drop in cradle.
:cheers: Paul
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I would guess that you're assuming right - it's just older stock with grey rope instead of orange. This particular winch unit has been sold for a while under various names. About the only thing I'd be concerned abotu with older stock is whether it had an older solenoid pack, but it looks like you're in luck there.
Cheers!
Matto :)
Yep in luck, the one I was looking at had a cracked mounting lug on the solenoid housing, it wasn't through the housing and it still will mount up with the brackets, though I'm going to mount it off the winch anyhow, but as it was classed as damaged and already marked down, I got the same discount off the mark down, so ended up at $389 and they wrote on the receipt that the warranty still applies ;D ;D
So thanks Matto your absolutely right about putting your money where your mouth is, and when they start selling Gigglepins, for a price that is less than I paid for my 4x4, I might justify one :cheers:
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mind you I cheated a bit buying a drop in cradle.
:cheers: Paul
Has anyone come across a flat mounting plate with the four feet holes and the rope slot cut in it. Preferably with the off set hawse plate holes, but I own a drill if not.
Want to use it as a sandwich plate on my steel bar as it is only 3mm on the front (it appears to be a TJM) and needs straightening where the previous owner "bumped" into something.
Cheer Dave
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..., but as it was classed as damaged and already marked down, I got the same discount off the mark down, so ended up at $389
that's an absolute bargain. You must be pretty happy.
As for the sandwich plate, just drop round to your local engineering/fab shop, and they'll be able to sort you out. DNC Metal Works here in Cairns made my front recovery points - Duncan took some measurements, sketched out a rough design, and had them water-jet-cut out of 10mm steel. Wasn't expensive, was quick, and worked a treat. That's what I'd do - drilling/cutting 10mm steel is guaranteed to give you a Bad Day if you're not set up to do that sort of work.
:D If you need a hand I'm back next Wednesday.... angle grinders.. alloys bullbars >:D ... I can help. Not long ago got practice on mine... mind you I cheated a bit buying a drop in cradle.
Cheater! If you call that cheating, I'm wondering what that makes me, since I have a steel winch bar already fitted, so I can just slot said winch straight in ;D ;D. Lifting the sucker under there will be the hardest thing. I'm not keen to pull the bar just to fit the winch, but may end up doing that. Thanks for the offer of a hand - maybe I can call both yourself and Bill, then I can just supervise? ;D >:(
If we camp together I know you will winch me out ......I hope ;D
Why do you think we try and go to the same places as Teabag? >:D
That's why I didn't need to post anything, you already knew what I would say :)
And that scares me a little.
Photos coming...
Cheers!
Matto :)
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Winch Re-Grease
My plan for today was to pull the SCA winch apart, replace the factory grease, and clock the gearbox. I've had mixed success.
Grease:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-lnAlG6wZ1Qc/T5frnrd7J6I/AAAAAAAATcU/vNgg61TwxjU/s640/IMG_7535.jpg)
I had two options for grease. Most of my research said that people use the blue Marine grease - the sort people use on outboard motors, or boat trailers. So I bought a tub of that (also from Supercheap!).
Whilst talking to the father-in-law, he mentioned that they used to use Moly grease when packing the wheel-bearings of 4WDs that would see a lot of water work. The Moly grease was meant to be better for keeping the water away, and wouldn't break down if it came into contact with the water. So I bought a tub of that too.
After looking at them both for 20 mins, the Marine grease won out. I like the idea of the Moly grease, and may use it next time. But for now, I went with the marine grease.
The winch came apart very easily.
Gearbox off:
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-TePXW7csJKc/T5frpv-qfAI/AAAAAAAATcc/oAqo1GR8I-M/s640/IMG_7536.jpg)
Motor, gearbox and drum:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-yXdSw5hkxp4/T5frrvmY52I/AAAAAAAATck/TMXCfRxQOto/s640/IMG_7537.jpg)
Disassembled:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/--Ahs4CBCgEA/T5frti8h0aI/AAAAAAAATcs/-mebWjJgDE8/s640/IMG_7539.JPG)
Cleaned down:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fr3ZB58EMnk/T5frxiK5psI/AAAAAAAATc8/Ws6vBT9QGDs/s640/IMG_7541.JPG)
Couple of observations from the tear-down:
- There are 10 small hex-head bolts that hold the gearbox onto the "end bracket". These were probably installed at the factory with some sort of power tool. To a fault, each one had the head rounded off inside. I had to carefully align, then gently tap an allen key into the socket on the head with a big hammer. Once done, you could crack the bolts and back them out. Also, once done they were much better next time. But to get any real torque on them, you needed to tap the key into them before tightening, lest you simply round the heads out more.
- The clutch ring gear is a very precise fit in the gearbox housing. Be very careful as you slide it out - you need to keep it very square or it will jam and you'll have a Bad Time. Take your time, lots of patience, and you'll be fine. NB - the top-most Final Gear isn't as tight a fit - it drops in/out easily. Likewise the plastic spacer.
- Both gearbox and motor ends appear to have good seals. There's an outer double-lipped seal which was in fantastic condition at each end. Then there's a second internal seal before the actual shaft entry.
- The motor can only be rotated 180-degrees, not 90-degrees. There's 2 bolts, and two dowels (as mentioned above). Hence, I didn't bother taking the motor off the end bracket. I simply pulled the seals, cleaned it up and greased, and re-fitted the seals.
I removed as much of the factory red grease as I could be bothered with. I understand about different greases not mixing well, but couldn't be bothered with soaking bits in degreaser for three days. So I pretty much did a "best effort" job. That said, there really wasn't much of the red grease left. Worst offenders were the planetary gear assemblies - an old toothbrush helps (or a new one, but make sure it's someone else's), and just lots of paper towels.
I reassembled everything in reverse order, using a lot of the marine grease. No photos of this because my hands were covered in the aforementioned marine grease.
As above, the clutch ring gear needs patience to reassemble. Otherwise, it's just time-consuming aligning the gears as you drop them in. You get better at it pretty quick.
First time, I reassembled with what was probably too much grease. It wasn't packed solid, but there was definitely more in there than factory-supplied. However, upon re-assembling, the gearbox was locked solid. So I disassembled it again (getting more grease everywhere), removed a bit of the new grease, and re-assembled. Same result. After about 3 more disassembly/reassembly cycles, I now have (I believe) a solid understanding of how planetary gear sets work ;D.
I found that the clutch ring gear wasn't seated correctly - it was probably around half a mm out of square, and had jammed. Careful "persuasion" with a hammer and a timber drift finally worked it square, and it would rotate relatively easily. I removed it, cleared out a bit of the new grease, and carefully re-installed. Spun even easier this time. Happy days. Reassembled the entire gearbox. Tested it to ensure it freespooled properly (it did), then torqued down the end bracket hex-head bolts.
It's easy to clock the gearbox, but because of the bolt pattern used you can't rotate it exactly 90-degrees. It's either ~70 degrees, or ~100 degrees. Not the end of the world either way.
Got the winch all re-assembled, and then discovered that alas, it won't freespool. So I'm not sure if torquing down the end bracket has knocked the drive shaft out of alignment, or if it's knocked the clutch ring gear out of square, or a million and one other possibilities. I think it's in the gearbox, and I think it's that clutch ring gear.
My plan is to pull the gearbox from the winch again, and try to get it freespooling by hand - that should tell me if it's a shaft alignment issue, or if the clutch ring gear is out of wack again. I may even hook it up to power, and run the winch on freespool for a little while to see if the motor can move the gears, and possibly free it up a tad. With brand-new marine grease in there, I'm expecting it to be a bit tighter than it was. Maybe with a bit of power/heat/movement, the grease will work it's way out of any super tight spots, and things will free up. NB - the freespool lever still shifts in and out perfectly fine.
That's the plan anyway. For now, I'm still cleaning blue grease off a LOT of things/tools/surfaces/body parts.
Cheers!
Matto :)
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Matto
You are know the winch service tech in cairns !!
Mark
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You are know the winch service tech in cairns !!
I take a long time, but at least I do a bad job!
Given that it was working before I pulled it apart, and now isn't, I don't think I'll be getting many customers...
Cheers!
Matto :)
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Matto thank you I was going to do the same with my tigerz11 winch
I think I might not now as mine works lol
Kidding I am sure you will get it back together
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Matto thank you I was going to do the same with my tigerz11 winch
I think I might not now as mine works lol
Kidding I am sure you will get it back together
At least you know what NOT to do!
It's a messy job, to be sure, but there's nothing difficult about it. I was expecting to run into problems with the free-spool - I expected the locking pin to be spring-loaded and fly out as soon as I'd removed the clutch ring gear. It's all captive though, so basically idiot-proof (yet I still managed to stuff it up - what's that tell you??).
I'm sure I can get it working - I suspect it may just need to be powered up and run for a little while to sort out the grease. I might pull it back apart tonight and work it by hand again - it was working, so there can't be much wrong with it.
Another whole roll of paper towels down the drain, I reckon...
Cheers!
Matto :)
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Matto, great write up. I've got a Tigerz11 12000lb myself, and it's due to be opened and greased up.
I was in China last week, at the Canton Fair. I saw most of the winches we get here on display from their original manufacturers. I too was thinking I should have bought a Warn, but for what I use it for, and for the weight saving I am happy. I happened to meet the bloke who supplied all the winches to a major three letter brand. He has been sourcing from China for a long time and insists they're not as crappy as some might have us believe.
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I was in China last week, at the Canton Fair. I saw most of the winches we get here on display from their original manufacturers. I too was thinking I should have bought a Warn, but for what I use it for, and for the weight saving I am happy. I happened to meet the bloke who supplied all the winches to a major three letter brand. He has been sourcing from China for a long time and insists they're not as crappy as some might have us believe.
Happy birthday BigJules by the way, so reading between the gaps in the latter part of the last sentence, we the buyers of "inferior thought of winches" are probably not that under gunned in the "I may have to reel it out in anger" a couple of times a year, group.
I know exactly what I got mine for,,,, I go out a lot on my own, and have managed, very luckily sometimes, to only Just, get myself out of the noooah. And not in any way where maxtax could help ( I don't have them yet). So my inferior bargain winch is great piece of mind to me,,,,, once I get it mounted .
Great Thread Topic Matto, ill be stripping mine down now before I mount it, to grease it up and clock both the gearbox and motor, so as to hopefully never use it 8)
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Update:
The winch is now bolted into the bar. Fits perfectly. I need to get some longer bolts to mount the fairlead, so will sort that tomorrow.
Have wired it in temporarily, and it works perfectly. Once I've got the fairlead on I'll spool the rope back on. I will need to rewire the control box though - the cables from the control box to the winch are just far too short. So will need to sort that quickly. Atm, everything's just cable-tied in place (inc the control box itself).
Will need to source some sort of huge fuse or CB, as I'm not too keen to have that huge cable unprotected. Not sure what people do in this instance.
Th old battery terminals are starting to get VERY busy. :)
Photos tomorrow. Well pleased with the progress so far.
Cheers!
Matto :)
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Will need to source some sort of huge fuse or CB, as I'm not too keen to have that huge cable unprotected. Not sure what people do in this instance.
I didn't bother, under load winches can pull up to 600A, good luck finding something suitable.
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I didn't bother, under load winches can pull up to 600 Amp, good luck finding something suitable.
what size cable is it from battery ? ? ?
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what size cable is it from battery ? ? ?
Dunno the exact size, I had Mal Leslie fit mine, the copper conductor is about the size of my thumb, I think he used welding cable 00 B&S
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Dunno the exact size, I had Mal Leslie fit mine, the copper conductor is about the size of my thumb, I think he used welding cable.
sounds correct :cup:
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watching, waiting and reserving judgement :cheers:
troy
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For a Fuse don't worry about it as mentioned 600amps thats one big fuse
What my winch came with was a cable the you twists and it disconnects the winch from the battery
If I was to run something I'd use a big anderson plug and only plug it in when I needed to use the winch
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what about this? (http://tigerz11.com.au/products/POWER-CUT-OFF-CABLE.html)
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Nice one, that solenoid is identical to mine, I just fitted my wireless remote control box inside, made sure everything was tight and clean then sealed it it with automotive silicon (I had some left over from when I fitted my snorkel).
It'll work until it doesn't I guess and I'll just check it every 6 months or so. If it dies, I'll just replace it with one of these.
TIGERZ11 THOMPSON CONTROL BOX HAND AND WIRELESS REMOTE INCLUDES ALL WIRING (http://bit.ly/Iw9IBC)
I didn't have to rotate anything because the winch just bolted straight down onto the TJM mount.
Cheers
Craig
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what about this? (http://tigerz11.com.au/products/POWER-CUT-OFF-CABLE.html)
These are a very good idea for anyone with a wireless controller, I don't know how true it is, but I have heard tell of someone unlucky enough to have their winch inadvertently activate and cave in the front bar.
Cheers
Craig
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I was advised by Mal not to fit anything in-line with the winch as if it fails in the bush you have a problem. I also have the Warn wireless controller fitted and have gone back to a wired controller.
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If you want to isolate your winch. The easiest and most reliable way is to fit a longer bolt to the clamp on the + battery terminal tighten off with a nut and then fit the winch cable on the end with a wingnut. Takes about 20 seconds to connect or disconnect the winch. Worked well for me as I had the control box fitted on top of the inner guard, so I hade to pop the bonnet to connect the controller anyway.
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If you want to isolate your winch. The easiest and most reliable way is to fit a longer bolt to the clamp on the + battery terminal tighten off with a nut and then fit the winch cable on the end with a wingnut.
Takes about 20 seconds to connect or disconnect the winch.
I presently have no winch, but.. I would think power to the winch would only be required when the winch is being used to extract a vehicle from a precarious position :laugh:
Therefore the best way to connect power up to the winch is by a similar method as suggested here
Only connect the winch cable to the battery, when you go out bush and are prepared to put your vehicle into a position where you may need the winch for recovery :cheers:
I see no point in having a live 12v feed being exposed to the public where it connects to the winch :-[
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I see no point in having a live 12v feed being exposed to the public where it connects to the winch :-[
You fit an isolator switch on the low current side.
How is it 'exposed to public'
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How is it 'exposed to public'
In this photo (off the Tigerz11 website) it shows 2 x bolts where (+) & (-) cables would attach :-*
or do I interpret it wrong ???
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Only connect the winch cable to the battery, when you go out bush and are prepared to put your vehicle into a position where you may need the winch for recovery :cheers:
Well said Mainey, no fun climbing out the window and trying to connect your winch to the battery and plug in the controller when your in the middle of the river.
:cheers:
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In this photo (off the Tigerz11 website) it shows 2 x bolts where (+) & (-) cables would attach :-*
or do I interpret it wrong ???
No you are not interpreting it wrong, but they are normally mounted inside a bar and not visible to the public.
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No you are not interpreting it wrong, but they are normally mounted inside a bar and not visible to the public.
but the only reason I knew they were there was because I've seen them on some vehicles and thought to myself 'wonder what would I happen if some dump pr!k (in a car park) shorted out the 2 x exposed wires for the winch' >:D >:D
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hence isolating the main power feed with a switch or removing the cable from the terminal is probably wise. there are HD switches available that will carry 600amps continuous for under $100. you cold link 2 batteries if you wanted. I was thinking or doing this although i reckon I'll just get another tigerz11 cable and use that if i think I need to link my 2 batteries for a nasty recovery.
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OK - Seems we have two discussions going on here.
1) Fuse. I want to fit something, so as to protect the batteries from a dead short in either the winch motor itself, or in the wiring. It runs through the engine bay and out under the bar - wouldn't take much for the insulation to rub through at a contact point, or for a stick to spike up and jag the cables. The big cable will be able to dump a lot of power very quickly, and you'd be into exploding battery territory. Which is something I don't want to happen. I recognise it'll be hard to find a fuse in the order of 600-800A, but I haven't even started looking yet. Surely there's something out there for a marine application, or something from the high-end car stereo world.
That said, it sounds like people don't run fuses inline with their winch power. That makes me nervous, but if everyone's doing it and no-one's having a problem, maybe I'm overthinking things.
2) The power isolation. I like the Tigerz cable, and almost ordered one last week. Unfortunately they're out of stock, and won't arrive till early June. I may yet just order one, but I would prefer to get this all sorted before then. I was intending to drop into a local welding shop, see if they've got any welding lead extension plugs for cheap, as I believe that's what the tigerz cable uses.
I thought about a big marine start switch, but they're expensive when you get into the size needed, especially considering the price of the tigerz alternative. Roo - is that the sort of switch you're referring to? Do you perchance have a link for the switch you mentioned? Might be an option for me - I like switches :).
In the short term - I really like kylarama's suggestion of fitting a longer bolt to the post and using a wingnut. It's low-tech, but it works and lets you put it on or off with ease.
As for :but the only reason I knew they were there was because I've seen them on some vehicles and thought to myself 'wonder what would I happen if some dump pr!k (in a car park) shorted out the 2 x exposed wires for the winch' >:D >:D
Has anyone actually had this happen to them? I know it's a popular story on forums - "someone's mate's cousin's dog's wife's friend found his car ripped in two after youths spooled out the winch, attached it to his towbar, and then shorted the winch terminal". But I've never spoken to anyone who's even had their winch even tampered with whilst it's sitting in a carpark. I don't doubt it could happen, but it just doesn't ever seem to actually HAVE happened. Out of sight, out of mind, I guess.
Does anyone actually have any first-hand experience of having had their winch tampered with?
Back to the actual topic at hand.
Winch is in the bar and mounted up properly. I needed to get some longer bolts to mount the fairlead on the outside - the M10x30 bolts supplied were not long enough. Of course, you can't buy M10x40 bolts, so I ended up with 45mm long ones that I needed to shorten with a hacksaw. Worked well, fits perfectly.
The rope has been spooled on now, and the winch worked well. Running it in short 10 sec bursts resulted in no heat build up, which is what you'd expect in a no-load situation. Gearbox turned well, although the freespool is still VERY tight. I'll re-assess after a few more cycles of rope off/on.You couldn't fit any more rope onto the drum if you tried, so it's going to be interesting in a proper recovery situation, where the rope might not end up so neatly spooled on.
At one point, the winch refused to power in. WE had ~half the rope on, and J hit the button to add on another couple of metres. The solenoid was dropping home, but the winch wasn't working. After a couple of tries, I grabbed the multimeter to test out the connections, see where it was failing. Unfortunately, the next time J hit the button it started working, and didn't miss a beat for the rest of the day. So not wure what was going on there, but it looks like I need to go over the electricals. That's OK - as previously mentioned I'm going to rewire the winch to control box cables, so I'll fix it all up then.
ATM, the control box is simply cable-tied to the grill. I'll need to make up a bracket to hold the box - the supplied brackets are designed to hold the box on the winch itself, which is no good for us Aussies that hide them inside our bars. It won't be too difficult.
Currently I have the cable hooked onto one of the recovery points under the front. I had bought an eyelet to mount to the bar, so I could attach the cable up high. Unfortunately the largest eyelet available on Saturday was still too small for the winch hook. So I'll have a look through the Whitworths catalogue, I'm sure there's something that will suit.
Cheers!
Matto :)
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@ Whitworths (https://www.whitworths.com.au/main_itemdetail.asp?cat=123&item=84431&intAbsolutePage=1) this one is 600amps continuous for $100.
or maybe this one would do (https://www.whitworths.com.au/main_itemdetail.asp?cat=123&item=84429&intAbsolutePage=1&LinkedItem=84430&search123=) for $70.
Cranking Rating: 10 sec: 2,000 Amps
Intermittent Rating 5 min: 600 Amps
Continuous Rating: 350 Amps
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I looked at the Whitworths switch last night, the 9.5xp pulls up to 480A so should do nicely. I think I'll fit one when I replace the Warn solenoid box with an Albright.
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Thanks Roo. I might go this one:
https://www.whitworths.com.au/main_itemdetail.asp?cat=123&item=84438&intAbsolutePage=1 (https://www.whitworths.com.au/main_itemdetail.asp?cat=123&item=84438&intAbsolutePage=1)
It's smaller, and smaller-rated, but should be fine. 700A for 10 seconds should be a good reminder to me to winch in short bursts. Space under the bonnet is getting reasonably hard to come by, so the smaller switch will be a big help :).
Fuse-wise, I might go a pair of these in parallel:
https://www.whitworths.com.au/main_itemdetail.asp?cat=123&item=33535&intAbsolutePage=1&LinkedItem=33534&search123=700a%20fuse (https://www.whitworths.com.au/main_itemdetail.asp?cat=123&item=33535&intAbsolutePage=1&LinkedItem=33534&search123=700a%20fuse)
400A each will give me a combined protection of 800A. That's above what the winch will draw in a normal situation (ie, motor not stalled), but will still protect me from a dead-short situation. I don't think the cable I've currently got would support 800A though, then again, not much will support hat sort of current short of copper buss-bars. Hmmm. May need to think some more on this one. It may be that having just the switch is protection enough.
Cheers for the link!
Matto :)
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Found the following test results from 4WD Action magazine when they tested winches in issue 126.
1st $1495 - Premier 9000lb
2nd $2028 - Warn 9.5XP
3rd $999 - TJM/OX 9500lb
4th $799 - Ironman 9500lb
5th $950 - Opposite Lock 9500lb
6th $699 - TMAX 9000lb
7th $799 - TMAX 10,000lb
8th $2432 - Warn 12,000lb
9th $1539 - Mile Marker 9000lb
10th $934 - Warn Magnum 9000lb
Then there is the 12000Lb Ironman winch @ $899 delivered ;D
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Guys I have no trouble not buying "big brand" equipment so long as you do abit of reseach on it before hand,alot of people turn there nose upto it I know,but change their attitude when that "cheap sh#%t" pulls them out........
,Ive got an ALDI winch(built in the tiger factory as well) on my hilux cost me $249 run out special (normally $399 as well),its 9500lb came with a 2 year unlimited warranty,remote control and wireless control,with a handy torch,and some recovery gear and has help me out a couple times with extracting cars etc.........
For the money if it worked once your still infront compared to paying someone to recover your car.
Quite a few people around the traps swear by them now(due to there price),just need to replace the grease as the OP has with his winch,initailly then every so often pull it down and service it..took me about an hour to install it,and I added a separate SCA Isolator next to the battery so power is off until I need to use it(or anyone else trying to use it for me),Ive hidden the control box out of harms way behind the bar so I can reach the power switch but hard to find for others,As for a circut breaker, have you seen the AMPs these babies pull,I dont run one,but wouldnt mind fitting one for cable protection,however the cable is rated accordingly. I know of 2 other guys at work also with the same winch as well,who are in 4wd clubs also with alot of them in the clubs too.
No way i was paying $2000 for a WARN to use seldom.....
just try not to put your self in a predicament in the first place.
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/dllw4/IMAG0213.jpg)
(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e381/dllw4/IMAG0214.jpg)
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On the topic of power isolation, I've bit the bullet and ordered one of the Tigerz11 disconnect cables from an ebay seller here:
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300438061775&ssPageName=ADME:L:OC:AU:3160 (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300438061775&ssPageName=ADME:L:OC:AU:3160)
Yes, it's overpriced, but they have stock now and I'm impatient :). Should be a good solution for me, since I doubt I could squeeze a marine switch under the bonnet.
Also, given that no-one else seems to run a fuse on a winch, I'm considering abandoning that idea.
Probably won't be much movement in this thread for a couple of weeks while I'm away for work. Will have to wait for the disconnect cable to arrive before I rewire the control box. In the meantime, play nice everyone.
Cheers!
Matto :)
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I recently bought a 13,000lb Chinese winch same as the one below but without the rope...
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-12V-13000LB-ELECTRIC-WINCH-REMOTE-ATV-TRUCK-BOAT-/251048184848?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a73a34c10#ht_8075wt_1396 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-12V-13000LB-ELECTRIC-WINCH-REMOTE-ATV-TRUCK-BOAT-/251048184848?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a73a34c10#ht_8075wt_1396)
I also removed the gearbox to both check the grease and to rotate it so that it would sit correctly in the Bullbar... I was surprised to see that this winch was packed solid with grease, not a smearing - Packed properly. I was prepared to replace it but decided that it could be a job later down the track as it looked perfectly fine by me....
Another thing I did was I moved the control box and solenoid pack up to just behind the main battery. replaced all cables with decent cables probably twice the size as the ones supplied and when you put the two together I am happy I did the upgrade... cost a extra $100.00 but a proper job...
The reason I got one was POM as I have survived for years without a winch but I couldn't bear getting bogged with the family and camper trailer....
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Have a play with a paperclip and where your controller plugs in, you might be suprised that your winch will start, so I've heard ;D
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The reason I got one was POM as I have survived for years without a winch but I couldn't bear getting bogged with the family and camper trailer....
My reason exactly Pete.
Sounds like you had a good win with your winch. How does yours freespool, with that much grease inside it? Easily?
Have a play with a paperclip and where your controller plugs in, you might be suprised that your winch will start, so I've heard ;D
Hi Britts,
Is that in response to my "Does anyone actually have any first-hand experience of having had their winch tampered with?" question above? I've no doubt you're correct - all the hand controller is is a couple of switches, so shorting out the right terminals would indeed make it work. My question was more about "has this actually happened to anyone in the wild?". Same as the stories about people waking up in a bath full of ice minus a kidney - no-one's doubting that it's physically possible, but I've never actually met anyone that it's happened to (either the winch, or the kidneys ;D).
Cheers!
Matto :)
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Have a play with a paperclip and where your controller plugs in, you might be suprised that your winch will start, so I've heard ;D
Doesn't work on the new 5 pin controller versions
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I recently bought a 13,000lb Chinese winch same as the one below but without the rope...
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-12V-13000LB-ELECTRIC-WINCH-REMOTE-ATV-TRUCK-BOAT-/251048184848?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a73a34c10#ht_8075wt_1396 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/NEW-12V-13000LB-ELECTRIC-WINCH-REMOTE-ATV-TRUCK-BOAT-/251048184848?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item3a73a34c10#ht_8075wt_1396)
The Hammerhead winch shown has a 6.7 HP motor, which is pretty high in comparison to others of similar class
all the numbers look like they add up to something reasonable and it may be worth the $355 ???
Rated Line Pull: 13000LB
Motor: 6.7HP Series Wound
Line: 26mt Dyneema 10mm
Gear Train: 3 Stage Planetary
Gear Train Ratio: 187.2:1
Clutch: Flexible Operation, Water Resistant
Braking: Automatic Drum Brake
Drum Size: 64mm x 223mm
Fairlead: Heavy Duty Alloy
LINE SPEED AND AMPS
Line Pull: 13000LB (5900kg)
Line Speed 1st layer: 4.8ft/min
Motor: 430Amps
Rated Line Pull Per Layer:
Layer 1: 13000lb (5900kg)
Layer 2: 9210lb (4541kg)
Layer 3: 9210lb (4010kg)
Layer 4: 8030lb (3361kg)
So what is the likely problem with this as a winch that would not get used too often :cheers:
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The Hammerhead winch shown has a 6.7 HP motor, which is pretty high in comparison to others of similar class
all the numbers look like they add up to something reasonable and it may be worth the $355 ???
Rated Line Pull: 13000LB
Motor: 6.7HP Series Wound
Line: 26mt Dyneema 10mm
Gear Train: 3 Stage Planetary
Gear Train Ratio: 187.2:1
Clutch: Flexible Operation, Water Resistant
Braking: Automatic Drum Brake
Drum Size: 64mm x 223mm
Fairlead: Heavy Duty Alloy
LINE SPEED AND AMPS
Line Pull: 13000LB (5900kg)
Line Speed 1st layer: 4.8ft/min
Motor: 430Amps
Rated Line Pull Per Layer:
Layer 1: 13000lb (5900kg)
Layer 2: 9210lb (4541kg)
Layer 3: 9210lb (4010kg)
Layer 4: 8030lb (3361kg)
So what is the likely problem with this as a winch that would not get used too often :cheers:
Thats exactly what I was just thinking, and at 36kg with only 26m of 10mm rope its got something HD inside somewhere :cheers:
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Matto
I would take it back and start again :-*
Mark
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The Hammerhead winch shown has a 6.7 HP motor, which is pretty high in comparison to others of similar class
all the numbers look like they add up to something reasonable and it may be worth the $355 ???
Rated Line Pull: 13000LB
Motor: 6.7HP Series Wound
Line: 26mt Dyneema 10mm
Gear Train: 3 Stage Planetary
Gear Train Ratio: 187.2:1
Clutch: Flexible Operation, Water Resistant
Braking: Automatic Drum Brake
Drum Size: 64mm x 223mm
Fairlead: Heavy Duty Alloy
LINE SPEED AND AMPS
Line Pull: 13000LB (5900kg)
Line Speed 1st layer: 4.8ft/min
Motor: 430Amps
Rated Line Pull Per Layer:
Layer 1: 13000lb (5900kg)
Layer 2: 9210lb (4541kg)
Layer 3: 9210lb (4010kg)
Layer 4: 8030lb (3361kg)
So what is the likely problem with this as a winch that would not get used too often :cheers:
Thats the same one i've been looking at, espicially after I burnt out the motor on the warn
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........snip
Fuse-wise, I might go a pair of these in parallel:
https://www.whitworths.com.au/main_itemdetail.asp?cat=123&item=33535&intAbsolutePage=1&LinkedItem=33534&search123=700a%20fuse (https://www.whitworths.com.au/main_itemdetail.asp?cat=123&item=33535&intAbsolutePage=1&LinkedItem=33534&search123=700a%20fuse)
400A each will give me a combined protection of 800A. That's above what the winch will draw in a normal situation (ie, motor not stalled), but will still protect me from a dead-short situation. I don't think the cable I've currently got would support 800A though, then again, not much will support hat sort of current short of copper buss-bars. Hmmm. May need to think some more on this one. It may be that having just the switch is protection enough.
Cheers for the link!
Matto :)
those fuses are rated to 400amps @ 32volts. how does that current rating change with only 12volts?
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those fuses are rated to 400amps @ 32volts. how does that current rating change with only 12volts?
It doesn't. They're two seperate specifications. The fuse itself is built to handle a maximm of 32v (ie, the insulation, etc), whilst the fuse will blow when more than 400A is drawn through it (at any voltage).
I'm using 240v household circuit breakers in my camper, and they work fine @ 12v. They'll trip at 10A, regardless of the voltage present.
Cheers!
Matto :)
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I would take it back and start again :-*
Not a chance Mr McGirr. I'm not covering myself with grease again anytime soon! I'm still finding blue gunk in places...
Cheers!
Matto :)
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Not a chance Mr McGirr. I'm not covering myself with grease again anytime soon! I'm still finding blue gunk in places...
Cheers!
Matto :)
Now that makes for an interesting speculation.. >:D
I drove straight past your campsite over Easter didn't know it was you or I would have popped in... (did that little Nissan kick up heaps of dust for you as well?? He didn't want to slow down when he went past me)
Blue
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(did that little Nissan kick up heaps of dust for you as well?? He didn't want to slow down when he went past me)
Hehehe. That might have been us. Duggie referred to us over the UHF as "a little Nissan" ;D. I can't recall blating past anyone, but if it was us, my apologies. :-*
Shame we didn't get a chance to catch up - I would have welcomed a chat and a look around that custom work of art you call a camper. I was really impressed with Boonmoo - we'll be going back for sure. Scouted out some of the good campsites, although I'd be happy to go back to the same one we had. Might leave it till summer though - the water was cold enough as it was.
Cheers!
Matto :)
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Hehehe. That might have been us. Duggie referred to us over the UHF as "a little Nissan" ;D. I can't recall blating past anyone, but if it was us, my apologies. :-*
Nooo, not you, some other dickhead in a silver nissan X-Trail, thought you might have caught his dust like Teabag and crew..
Shame we didn't get a chance to catch up - I would have welcomed a chat and a look around that custom work of art you call a camper. I was really impressed with Boonmoo - we'll be going back for sure. Scouted out some of the good campsites, although I'd be happy to go back to the same one we had. Might leave it till summer though - the water was cold enough as it was.
We were over the hill on the other creek, the only ones there. Bloody brilliant. Pity it dries up quickly...
Look forward to catching up somewhere.. :cheers:
Blue
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??? Sorry, only got back today, I have a spare isolater for my winch given to me, I was supposed to swap the one in the kit for this new improved one. The long/short story I have 2 and only need one.... has red removable key, bolt your cables on back.
:cheers: Paul
Edit: Went and got the new improved switch out of shed, seems that it is only a 12v 100Amp one.... will see what troubles the boys from Ironman have had.... maybe it was a bad grab from the shelf.
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I have a spare isolater for my winch given to me, I was supposed to swap the one in the kit for this new improved one.
The long/short story I have 2 and only need one.... has red removable key, bolt your cables on back.
:worthles: :worthles: