Author Topic: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything  (Read 687587 times)

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Offline Mandrake

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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1600 on: February 27, 2015, 09:00:21 AM »
As far as the Alien is concerned -- I QUIT !!! ...

Busted another set of props today after it left the ground and rotated CCW and I couldn't land it quick enough and switch off the motors ....

SO ....

Its now in a not to be opened until July 2015 box ....

I'll go fly the Phantom and take some movies with it from now on ....

Cheers

Steve
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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1601 on: February 27, 2015, 10:47:00 AM »
Crispy's offer is looking pretty good Steve

Offline Mandrake

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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1602 on: February 27, 2015, 11:10:05 AM »
If I head off that way one day I might take him up on it ... But at the moment I need to get out and take some aerial videos... So it can wait for a better time now ...
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Offline Mandrake

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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1603 on: February 27, 2015, 02:58:35 PM »
Had nothing to do so I took the Alien apart to strip it to the bare essentials of flight - and guess what I found ... Some DH had connected the Aileron to the Elevator and Elevator to the Aileron sockets ....
The Devo receiver has this order EATR everything else has AETR .... So not hard to do ( my excuse anyway. )

So maybe tomorrow I'll try a liftoff again ... LOL .

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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1604 on: February 27, 2015, 03:20:47 PM »
How far did you strip it down before you found that, not too far I hope?

Mind you, removing the gazillion screws from the top plate is painful just by itself.

Offline CBRK

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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1605 on: February 27, 2015, 10:06:12 PM »
Had nothing to do so I took the Alien apart to strip it to the bare essentials of flight - and guess what I found ... Some DH had connected the Aileron to the Elevator and Elevator to the Aileron sockets ....
The Devo receiver has this order EATR everything else has AETR .... So not hard to do ( my excuse anyway. )

So maybe tomorrow I'll try a liftoff again ... LOL .

It's all good we all have those moments.....  Like when I tried the new CF tricopter, I thought I'd checked everything but I had 3 things still not right....  So the alien might take flight then!!!

Chris
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Offline CBRK

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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1606 on: February 27, 2015, 10:27:57 PM »
Not been well this cold / flu is doing my head in, one moment plenty of energy next minute, none....

Well it looks like I've fixed my issue, still haven't taken it for a flight outside yet....  I did an inside tethered test - the tether prevents it from actually taking off as I have limited room downstairs (I doubt my wife would let me do it upstairs while she is home and if I extend it I might hit a glass coffee table). 

It was skipping along the floor at 8A with everything bar the gimbal mount (but did have the Watt meter attached), at 12A (just under 4A per motor) it was really pulling at the tether, so I reckon I'm back to where I was on the wooden frame (if not better).  I've confirmed that I'm 1.25kg with the battery but no gimbal mount, so that will go up another 200-250g, so I think I'll be spot on 1.5kg.

Still makes me 200g heavier than planned but I can live with it.

Thank you Mark for getting me to rethink the wiring.  It appears it was indeed voltage drop.

Now battling the gimbal mount, I was about to do the 3rd axis when I discovered I didn't have any 90 degree header pins, grrrrr....  So now I have to wait until tomorrow morning to visit Jaycar for the header row's (I have plenty of straight ones - hate paying the jaycar tax).  Then there will be some soldering and drilling the holes to hold the yaw motor.  Then some configuring and I might be able to do a flight tomorrow if I feel better otherwise it will be Monday.

Chris
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 12:30:20 AM by CBRK »
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Offline Spartan

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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1607 on: February 28, 2015, 12:01:40 AM »
Good quality motors are getting cheaper too, same with ESC's. However, I have a growing aversion to Hobbyking motors. The bearings in particular, no matter about Hobbykings assurances of quality bearings and balanced motors, their motors leave a lot to be desired.

Tell me about it!

I now have 2 out of 5 NTM motors with bad bearings - bad enough to cause the tri to wobble all over the place. The first bad motor made it pretty much unflyable. The second I could put up with but I have a growing suspicion that it was the cause of a decent crash the other week - broken carbon fibre boom, tilt mechanism, camera/battery tray mounts, props etc plus also a battery short which cause one of the other booms to catch fire!

It was flying fine and I was trying to fly back towards myself about 50m high when I noticed that it would barley stay level even at full forward stick and was slowly drifting away from me. I pulled back on the stick and it stood on it's tail so I definitely had control but by this time it was getting about 400m away and over a tree line so I cut the throttle and went searching for it.

In hind site I should have either just lowered the throttle for a few seconds before cutting it so that had a shorter fall to the ground or I could have yawed 180 degrees so that it just drifted back towards me. But of course I didn't think of those things when I only had a few seconds before it was completely out of sight!

I thought maybe the battery had moved and changed the CoG but even after the crash it was still exactly where I put it so I'm pretty sure that the tail motor started to fail and just couldn't supply enough lift for forward flight.

I got all the replacement parts this week so I've taken the opportunity to completely strip it down and rewire it to make it much neater and also safer. I really was pretty close to starting a bush fire so I'm doing whatever I can to sort it out while I have the chance!
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Offline CBRK

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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1608 on: February 28, 2015, 12:38:11 AM »
Now battling the gimbal mount, I was about to do the 3rd axis when I discovered I didn't have any 90 degree header pins, grrrrr....  So now I have to wait until tomorrow morning to visit Jaycar for the header row's (I have plenty of straight ones - hate paying the jaycar tax).  Then there will be some soldering and drilling the holes to hold the yaw motor.  Then some configuring and I might be able to do a flight tomorrow if I feel better otherwise it will be Monday.

After some reading it seems I dont need the 90 degree header pins, I can wire it up tomorrow!!

Looks like i will have manual control of only two axis, i think I'll be choosing yaw and pitch.  I'll let it work out the roll.  I'll have to work out if that will work how I expect it to.

So only need to drill some mounting holes.  Will need to be precise, I have 4 x 2mm holes.  Should be interesting.

Oh well of to sleep now to try to get rid of this cold / flu.

Chris
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Marschy

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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1609 on: February 28, 2015, 03:34:47 AM »
Thank you Mark for getting me to rethink the wiring.  It appears it was indeed voltage drop.
It was good timing I think insomuch that it had only happened to me a couple of days before you reported a similar problem. I must admit to being surprised at the relatively short cable length having such an effect on voltage drop. It happened to me with only one metre of 14 AWG wire. Lesson learned for both of us.

Marschy

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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1610 on: February 28, 2015, 03:42:26 AM »
I now have 2 out of 5 NTM motors with bad bearings - bad enough to cause the tri to wobble all over the place. The first bad motor made it pretty much unflyable. The second I could put up with but I have a growing suspicion that it was the cause of a decent crash the other week - broken carbon fibre boom, tilt mechanism, camera/battery tray mounts, props etc plus also a battery short which cause one of the other booms to catch fire!
I'm not bothering with the NTM motors anymore. There are better options for only a few dollars more.

All you fellas with the tri-copters aught to try low kv pancake motors. You'll get better endurance and as aerial photography is your aim, they are better for this task.

Offline Hogbert_1999

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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1611 on: February 28, 2015, 06:25:29 AM »
Some footage from a recent FPV flight I did when away :-)

http://youtu.be/vP_pK0lspvQ




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Offline Mandrake

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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1612 on: February 28, 2015, 07:07:53 AM »
Very nice and smooth...nice place too... Did you slow it down ?
The outlet flow from the dam looks slow ...
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Offline Spartan

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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1613 on: February 28, 2015, 08:59:05 AM »
I'm not bothering with the NTM motors anymore. There are better options for only a few dollars more.

All you fellas with the tri-copters aught to try low kv pancake motors. You'll get better endurance and as aerial photography is your aim, they are better for this task.

I won't use them again either.

The only problem for me with pancake motors is clearance with the tail servo.

I'm hoping that the 5th motor I just received will be ok and then I will have a nice smooth tri. I also bought some bearings from Avidrc so I'll see if I can resurrect the bad motors. They are only cheap bearings so not sure if I will gain anything anyway.
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Offline Hogbert_1999

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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1614 on: February 28, 2015, 09:32:09 AM »

Very nice and smooth...nice place too... Did you slow it down ?
The outlet flow from the dam looks slow ...

Yeah messed with the speed a little in the gopro software was only filmed at 30fps (better lighting) however would have been better at 60fps to do slow mo.

Very peaceful spot
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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1615 on: February 28, 2015, 09:53:58 AM »
Yeah messed with the speed a little in the gopro software was only filmed at 30fps (better lighting) however would have been better at 60fps to do slow mo.

Very peaceful spot
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Offline CBRK

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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1616 on: February 28, 2015, 10:21:57 AM »
I'm not bothering with the NTM motors anymore. There are better options for only a few dollars more.

All you fellas with the tri-copters aught to try low kv pancake motors. You'll get better endurance and as aerial photography is your aim, they are better for this task.

Funny you should mention that I've been eyeing off the Emax MT3110 motors (4s-6s).  I was thinking I would only need to replace the ESC's with them and I could use two of my 3s batts to bring it up to 6s.

If I still have troubles after the rewiring I'll reconsider it.

Chris
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 11:03:27 AM by CBRK »
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Offline Hogbert_1999

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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1617 on: February 28, 2015, 11:07:52 AM »

Remind me what you fly please

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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1618 on: February 28, 2015, 11:42:05 AM »
Tbs disco pro with go pro 3 +


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and the FC? Radio gear? Gimbal?

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Offline CBRK

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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1619 on: February 28, 2015, 12:56:02 PM »
and the FC? Radio gear? Gimbal?

I thought the TBS Disco Pro came with the Naza FC, has it's own brushless gimbal (I think it's two axis) but hogbert can confirm.
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Offline CBRK

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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1620 on: February 28, 2015, 01:18:56 PM »
It was good timing I think insomuch that it had only happened to me a couple of days before you reported a similar problem. I must admit to being surprised at the relatively short cable length having such an effect on voltage drop. It happened to me with only one metre of 14 AWG wire. Lesson learned for both of us.

Definitely a lesson for us both, lucky timing.  My 16 AWG was only 35cm in length, I think it had 18 AWG for another 10cm's and I think that is what was killing it.  I used 14 AWG just to rule out the voltage drop (and 16 AWG on the AC side - it was 18 AWG before).  I hate how the components are coming out with lead free solder.....  Makes it hard to remove those pesky under rated cables.

Very impressed with the 14 AWG, still not ready to do a flight today (I'm still feeling very average), so since I've got daughter duties tomorrow (wife is doing a weekend session for her masters) I'll have to wait until Monday morning to do some flying.

Oh I also picked up a 4s battery to test it out on my rig (will need to use a voltage reg for the gimbal and FPV gear but everything else should be good).

Chris
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Offline CBRK

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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1621 on: February 28, 2015, 11:33:46 PM »
Finally got the gimbal all sorted tonight.  Man that took some mucking around with, all my previous settings were no good once you add the 3rd axis.

Something I've noticed is that if I put it at extreme angles it's possible to confuse the yaw axis, so it doesn't return to it's home position (it doesn't know where it is - doesnt have the same issue with the pitch or roll, hmmmm)), this is a big issue, sure I can reset it by using the RC input but I don't always have a good visual on the camera. 

I've noticed that in the newer 32 bit version (very expensive) they have added an additional IMU (Frame IMU) for the yaw axis to prevent this.  The other way it seems to resolve it with the older 8 bit version is to use a 2nd 8 bit gimbal controller, which I'm considering.  Hmmm, $140 for the new 32bit version or $35 for a 2nd controller, hmmmmm.  If I was designing this stuff I would have made the expansion board have a sensor set on it and then have it mounted on the frame but this might be due to the limits of the 8 bit processor.

I'll wait and see how much drift I get while it's flying and if I need a short term fix I'll consider buying a 2nd 8 bit mini controller (unable to update firmware on them though) or find space for a 2nd full sized board (so I can update firmware).....  Don't want to outlay $140 until I'm back to work but it would be a better fix for the long term.  It may not be an issue at all.

Chris
« Last Edit: February 28, 2015, 11:41:10 PM by CBRK »
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Offline Mandrake

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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1622 on: March 01, 2015, 03:54:59 PM »
I was looking at all my spare bits the other day and decided all I needed was a frame and a GPS module to make another quad -- So I bought a F450 frame , 4 ESCs and a GPS module
from Banggood ...
I'll build it using 4 ESCs and a Naza M and see if I can get it to work - If successful then I might have to put the 4 ESCs in the Alien and see if that works better ...

So now I wait and use the Phantom as soon as the gale force 9 wind abates ...

Yeah I know - Glutten for punishment that's me
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Offline CBRK

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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1623 on: March 02, 2015, 01:34:29 PM »
I was looking at all my spare bits the other day and decided all I needed was a frame and a GPS module to make another quad -- So I bought a F450 frame , 4 ESCs and a GPS module

Ummmm, I'm sure you said you only needed two items there, but picked an additional 4 ESC's?  I do that to.....  They were on sale right, two good to refuse  ;D
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Offline CBRK

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Re: Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything
« Reply #1624 on: March 02, 2015, 02:11:59 PM »
Ok, so I took the tri fo a spin today.

I ran it through 1.5 batts.  It is still hungry for power at 22A for a hover, I've had to tune the pixhawk so that 70% throttle is the mid point.  This is a bit of an issue as it means I've not got much reserve power.  I think I need to redo the ESC calibration, I forgot to do that before I went up to fly, only remembered as I landed on the last go.  Reason for this is that I'm still only using 28A at max throttle, if my bench tests are right I should get up to 39A at full throttle.....  At 28A I'm only generating 600gx3=1.8kg, so lots of spare capacity - I want to access that as I had a fast descent and only just had the power to arrest it (got to only 20cms off the ground before climbing again).  Flight time was around 10mins on the first battery, the 2nd one was around 6 mins but I only used 50% of the battery, the park was getting busier so I left.

Good news is the thicker wire means no floating to the ground at 50% battery capacity, I didn't reach that point but it was getting sluggish at about 80%.

I also think it would sing without the weight of the gimbal and camera, it's nearly 300g.  My AUW with the gimbal is a shy under 1.5kg.  I'm looking for weight savings at present.

Still to replace the FR4 radio mast with CF.  I will try out the 4s 3000mah battery when it arrives, it could be tomorrow but more likely Wednesday.  I do hope I don't have to change over to 4s batteries.....  I have so many 3s batteries.....  I dont think I could sling a 5000mah 3s under the mini quad.....

3 axis gimbal works ok, I think that's it's own level of tuning as I noticed in video that I've got some jello I didnt before, I think it was the gimbal motors introducing small oscillations.  It's weird the settings I had for 2 axis were good but once you add the third in they are no good.  I think I'll be playing with those settings for a while.

Main issues with the 3 axis gimbal was:
- Now have some jello due to incorrectly tuned controller
- As suspected you can confuse the yaw controller with fast yawing on the model
- If the yaw is not 100% straight with the model it is easily seen in the playback

I was able to correct the yaw issue by manually correcting in flight with a knob assigned to the yaw control.  However you could get yourself into a position where you cannot fix it until you reach the ground.  From reading I can resolve it by either upgrading to the 32bit version, using a 2nd 8 bit board or using a bigger yaw motor.  Not sure what I'll do yet on that front.  On a plus it did remove my tail wag that is common in tri's, particularly in gusty wind.  I think some tuning will soften that out.

It was nice to fly forwards and have the camera pointed to the side, although this is easy to do in a multicopter without the yaw gimbal, just easier to do with the gimbal from a brain concept point of view.

Chris
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