MySwag.org The Off-road Camper Trailer Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: D4D on January 05, 2011, 01:59:46 PM
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http://www.surveygizmo.com/s3/317270/Bull-Bars-Under-Threat
The Federal Government is presently considering adopting European regulations that relate to the design and safety performance of motor vehicles. It is the belief of the Australian Automotive Aftermarket Industry that it will not be possible to develop bull bars that will meet this European standard. Therefore full adoption of the standard is likely to lead to the banning of bull bars, and possibly other bumper mounted accessories such as winches and driving lights. Given the unique nature of Australian roads and conditions, it is the industry's belief that the European regulations are inappropriate for this country.
The Australian 4WD Industry is preparing submissions on this subject, and is collecting data on vehicle usage. By completing this short survey, you will be providing us with invaluable information on your experience as an Australian motorist.
For every completed survey, the 4WD Industry will be donating $1 to the Royal Flying Doctor Service, to a maximum total of $20,000.
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Hmmmmmmm, interesting survey
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Filled it out and posted it on a couple of forums as well :cheers:
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Survey done.
To everyone on this forum, please take time to fill out the survey; it takes less than 5 minutes.
Bull bars banned today, 4WD's next; Stand up for your rights!! People power puts pollies in their place
dic
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I've done it too!
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D4D,
Whoever set up the survey should realize that 08xx is a valid Australian postcode and probably has one of the highest per capita 4WD ownerships in the country. If they want to get the NT input they need to sort this out asap. Do you know who did the original survey setup?
Ross
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I have filled out the survey however, can anyone provide a link to evidence of what is proposed / what has initiated this survey?
There are too many 'red budgie smuggler' furphies getting currency as fact these days.
In any event, a change to design rules would not be able to alter what we are already running. For example, cars registered pre-seat belts do not need to fit them to be registered.
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I see this as a funny thing.
If pedestrians stopped jumping in front of Road Users and cars stopped pulling out in front of Road Users there wouldn't be a problem.
Just remember they still walk/pull out in front of Day-glow Orange 2 KM long Trains.... Will they ban Trains next?
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Done, I encourage everyone to do this survey.
I hope that the politicians take note.
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Survey done ;D
(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6339/11689821.jpg)
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I found it on the front page of the ARB web site
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There is no way they are going to outlaw bullbars and the accessories in Australia....
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Completed 100%
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Done mine........
Also logged on to RFDS and sent them $20.
Please consider doing them same.
They save lives and one day it may be yours or your family.
They are worth more than a million times their weight in gold.
Back to the issue.........
What knobs think up ways to annoy the law abiding citizens?
When is a dose of reality going to hit these peckers in the face.
VOTE the fools out. PLEASE>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ;D
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Filled in!
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Done the survey.
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Done
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Done
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Done & busted . You can take my bullbar from my cold dead hands >:D
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Done.
Speewa, just imaging the Government Buy-Back - that hopper deflector screen would be worth $1500 at least, plus the cost of the b/bar. ;D
Tim - Stratford.
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Tim you have under estimated me I am not that cheap . The insult $1500 more like $15000+& a Gov grant for somethingorother . I will think of something 8) :cheers:
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Completed.....
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Now a sticky.
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Done.....Even gave them a cracker of an example how the bullbar saved the day !!!!! well a person any way !!!!
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That government buy would be interesting. Theres the bar, winch, radio mounting to be redone, lights to be remounted then the orginal bumpers to put back on.
With all the extra costs interest rates will go up by 10%, to about 17%, hey isn't that what happened under the last labour government that was in power....
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I will tell the Government to go get stuffed.....I will ring one of the big talk back radio shows and put my point of view forward. And my main point will be, will the Gov be game to tell all the manufactures of all these products we are closing you up!!!! I do not think so, imagine the Gov saying to Toyota that you will not be able to fit Bull Bars to any of your 4WDs, the biggest car manufacture in the world has a lot more clout then Julia Gillard ;D
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I found it on the front page of the ARB web site
D4D, I can't see anything there apart from the survey - so far I have not been able to find any evidence about WHAT is proposed or what the PROCESS to institute change is.
Where is ARB's EVIDENCE / basis for claiming that this is occurring? ???
So far, on the evidence, this could be another of those "THEY have banned celebrating Easter / Christmas in schools / kindergartens" things.
Would be good if ARB would at least post an article which indicates their basis for this claim. (A bit like "without pics it never happened", but with words, not pics, providing the specifics.)
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I see this as a funny thing.
If pedestrians stopped jumping in front of Road Users and cars stopped pulling out in front of Road Users there wouldn't be a problem.
Just remember they still walk/pull out in front of Day-glow Orange 2 KM long Trains.... Will they ban Trains next?
Will they ban Trains next?
Hopefully... They are noisy, long and don't look very good.. Ban them to I say.... ;D ;D ;D.
Sorry... just had to.. Been a long day
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Done
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Done.
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everybody can drive lumps of iron...oh sorry, meant to say Hummers ;D
Done.
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Done
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I have just sent the 4wd council an email requesting that they fix the survey to accept NT postcodes and suggested that whoever set it up should think beyond the eastern states
NT is a part of Oz and 0870 is a valid postcode! 8)
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Done. And if a buy back eventuated (can't see it happening) it would probably be like the gun buy back - they tell you what you'll get and it won't be much.
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:D On the newer European trucks they've had to do a lot with the FUPS (front underrun protection Sys), a lot of the local bar manufacturer's are now not registered to make bars for these models.... however some have passed the hurdles for some trucks like Volvos but I don't know about the Scanias.... but I have know doubt they will be available, animal strikes make a mess of fibreglass.
So, I reckon if they can do it for trucks, and they have this extra garbage, (how many cars get under a decent bullbar :o ::) ) IMHO it will achieved in spite of the govt....
About to do survey, RFDS can use the funds
Paul
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Survey done
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done
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Done.
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Another one done.
Just more distraction from the "Gummints" real problems (they have caused) - I wish they would just get on and do something useful for ONCE !
Cheers all
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Survey done.
Draggin, you could be right about the pollies using it as a welcome distraction but I suspect it was instigated by anti-4WD lobby groups. The Pedestrian Council of Australia, for instance, has been trying for years to restrict or ban 4x4's >:(
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What is actually being done? (Enquiry / draft legislation prepared?)
Who is doing it? (Which government department?)
What evidence is there for any of this? (On what facts is the banner on the ARB web site based?)
I have completed the survey, as I think it will provide valuable data however, there has been no evidence produced to either substantiate that anything is proposed or to enable us to argue against the detail.
I have been around far too long to believe any of the 'teasers' on magazine covers, as they are usually written to suck the gullible in to buy the mag. Probably more so in the case of 4x4 pages - as they need to get you to go to the newsagents first!
On some forums threads are declared 'dead' as soon as Hitler / Nazis are mentioned. I recon the 4X4 equivalent is blaming the Pedestrian Council of Australia - was wondering how long that would take...
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Have done the survey, few questions that seem a little one sided if they are trying to collect a good cross section of data. Don't want to see their input disregarded because of poor data. Have also put a link to the survey onto our 4wd club site and a few people have done it already. Hopefully the RFDS get some good from it no matter the outcome of any gov't decisions regarding bullbars on new vehicles.
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thanks for the heads up.
Survey now done.
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Have a look at your local SES / RFS / CFA / CFS / VRA etc vehicles. Imagine having to mount the warning equipment (lights sirens etc) without a bullbar - almost impossible I should know that how I made a living for a number of years...
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Another one done >:D
:cheers:
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Survey done
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Survey done
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Interesting series of questions.
A pedestrian orientated one would be interesting.
How often do you use the footpath?
How often do you jaywalk?
Do bullbars scare you?
What sort of damage do you think one would do to you if you were hit by one?
Do you think you would jaywalk again after answering the previous question?
Duh!
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Interesting series of questions.
A pedestrian orientated one would be interesting.
How often do you use the footpath?
How often do you jaywalk?
Do bullbars scare you?
What sort of damage do you think one would do to you if you were hit by one?
Do you think you would jaywalk again after answering the previous question?
Duh!
Thats gold Snow ;D (but fitting as well I guess).
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What is actually being done? (Enquiry / draft legislation prepared?)
Who is doing it? (Which government department?)
What evidence is there for any of this? (On what facts is the banner on the ARB web site based?)
I have completed the survey, as I think it will provide valuable data however, there has been no evidence produced to either substantiate that anything is proposed or to enable us to argue against the detail.
I have been around far too long to believe any of the 'teasers' on magazine covers, as they are usually written to suck the gullible in to buy the mag. Probably more so in the case of 4x4 pages - as they need to get you to go to the newsagents first!
On some forums threads are declared 'dead' as soon as Hitler / Nazis are mentioned. I recon the 4X4 equivalent is blaming the Pedestrian Council of Australia - was wondering how long that would take...
Now barry come on. Independent thought is not allowed. Just fill in the survey ticking the boxes that will conform with the masses. ;D
And yes darren that is a handgrenade - perhaps others will think past what they are spoon fed
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oops! Thanks Dazzler for reminding me to renew my prescription of 'ThinkRight' pills, its a long time since 1984 and I have finally run out! ;D
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Survey done
What moron proposed banning Bullbars. This would cost lives. What about heavy vehicles, a roo/beast would do significant damage and could possibly force the vehicle into on coming traffic.
What about repair costs and delays ?
regards
Slip
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Survey done
What moron proposed banning Bullbars. This would cost lives. What about heavy vehicles, a roo/beast would do significant damage and could possibly force the vehicle into on coming traffic.
What about repair costs and delays ?
regards
Slip
Yet to actually see any evidence that this has been proposed. Happy to be shown some if it exists.
Remember: "Without evidence it is just a beat up!" ;D
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Yet to actually see any evidence that this has been proposed. Happy to be shown some if it exists.
Remember: "Without evidence it is just a beat up!" ;D
Or an eleborate conspiracy theory put out there by paraniod anti authoritarian.....or worse,.... a sly Scruby-arian. ;D ;D
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Or an eleborate conspiracy theory put out there by paraniod anti authoritarian.....or worse,.... a sly Scruby-arian. ;D ;D
Snow, someone has already run the 'its the pedestrians' line a few days ago!
Still waiting for the pics!
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Snow, someone has already run the 'its the pedestrians' line a few days ago!
Still waiting for the pics!
Yeah mate, it was me. Always good for a bit more milage. ;D ;D
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just did it !
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done
:cheers: Cracka
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Yet to actually see any evidence that this has been proposed. Happy to be shown some if it exists.
Remember: "Without evidence it is just a beat up!" ;D
just found this link on the fed gov infrastructure website.
http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/motor/design/adr_comment.aspx
go to the pdf titled regulation impact statement
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Thanks Oz,
Will have a look at it. Always good to know what is actually being proposed. Might even be able to make a submission - which would likely carry a lot more weight than signing an e-petition. Similarly, something to write to MPs about.
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next they try to stop trucks from having bull bars this l reckon has all come about since yuppies started buying 4x4'sjavascript:void(0);
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I have just read the documentation from the goovernment and it does seem to recognise the need for VFPS (bull bars) on 4wd vehicles and the ban of steel bars seems to only apply to 2wd vehicles (to be replaced with polymer bars). So all may not quite be as bad as it seems. Having said this, I still stand by the old addage that :
A BULLBAR IN THE BUSH IS WORTH TWO PEDESTRIANS IN THE CITY
:cheers: Cracka
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No Aus manufacturer / retailer will agree to comply with this:
"... 5. Frontal protection systems, as separate technical units, shall
not be distributed, offered for sale or sold unless accompanied by
a list of vehicle types for which the frontal protection system is
type-approved, as well as by clear assembly instructions."
Just imagine all the 'experts' that would be needed to translate the 'chinglish' "destructions" that come with the stuff from Superche@p / Flea-bay! ;D
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done
Thank You!
Thank you for taking our survey. Your response is very important to us. For further information on this matter please visit: http://www.aaaa.com.au/4wd
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I have seen/heard somewhere that the whole thing is sponsored by SmartBar.......
Makes you thinking.
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Ok , could someone please explain where they get their statistics from , 25 to 30 thousand animal strikes per year they claim in the article, is this Australia wide or just 1 state ? Ive had upto 6 hits in just the 1 trip from home to the supermarket in Longreach ,126klm 1 way.
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Ok , could someone please explain where they get their statistics from , 25 to 30 thousand animal strikes per year they claim in the article, is this Australia wide or just 1 state ? Ive had upto 6 hits in just the 1 trip from home to the supermarket in Longreach ,126klm 1 way.
what they are saying is that is an estimated figure..
hell i estimate 400,000,000,000 beers are had each year, let's run a survey to find out.
even if you don't have a bullbar or care, taking the time to complete the survey to help hit that $20,000 limit is great.
dan
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Ok , could someone please explain where they get their statistics from , 25 to 30 thousand animal strikes per year they claim in the article, is this Australia wide or just 1 state ? Ive had upto 6 hits in just the 1 trip from home to the supermarket in Longreach ,126klm 1 way.
I think this is meant to come from insurance claim statistics. Check this report out: Australian Automotive Aftermarket Association industry position paper (http://www.aaaa.com.au/files/issues/PositionPaperBullbars.pdf)
Quote from this report: "In 2007 NRMA Insurance recorded over recorded over 9000 animal-related collisions in NSW alone, with the total cost to the NSW Community estimated at $70 million"
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Received this from ARB today
ARB, in conjunction with the Australian 4WD Industry Council has launched a national on-line public survey to collect information from the public about their use of bull bars and nudge bars.
The safety of Australian motorists that drive vehicles fitted with bull bars and nudge bars is threatened by proposed new Federal Government regulations, which are based on rules developed for the European environment and road conditions by the United Nations Economic Cooperation for Europe (UNECE).
The 4WD Industry Council wants up-to-date information about bull and nudge bars - also known as "vehicle front protection systems" (VFPS) - for its consultations with the Department of Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Development in Canberra about the proposed regulation. This regulation focuses on pedestrian safety - not vehicle and occupant safety.
The Department has now released a Regulation Impact Statement for Pedestrian Safety Standards for public consultation, which closes on 15 April 2011. This document includes extensive discussion on "VFPS" and contains options for the regulation of bull bars.
By completing the 4WD Industry Council's survey, participants will help meet the need for current accurate data on the use of bull and nudge bars. The Council hopes to learn more about vehicle types, driving patterns and critical safety issues, such as animal strikes and other impacts.
Adoption of this overseas rule would make it impossible in Australia to fit bull and nudge bars, which are designed to protect drivers and passengers in front end animal strikes and other impacts. It may also ban winches and driving lights.
The Federal Department has released the proposed regulation for a three month consultation period. We want to collect road users' views and report them as part of the industry response.
The survey takes only moments to complete and is totally confidential. We will add this new data to a report recently commissioned by the Council to study animal strikes on Australian roads.
These Council initiatives respond to the lack of uniform data about the estimated 25,000 to 30,000 vehicle-to-animal strikes occurring each year across Australia. We do not believe that good regulatory decisions can be made without proper research and without canvassing all key issues.
ARB encourages road users to complete the on-line survey as soon as possible. The Survey closes on 31 March 2011. For every person completing the questionnaire, the Council will donate $1 to the Royal Flying Doctor Service, to a maximum of $20,000.
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Here's the survey link
http://www.surveygizmo.com/s3/317270/Bull-Bars-Under-Threat (http://www.surveygizmo.com/s3/317270/Bull-Bars-Under-Threat)
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Why is it some 4wd drivers think it’s ok to drive around with their bullbar mounted rod holders fitted when they're obviously not going fishing? Given there is enough focus on bullbars, do you need to draw attention to yourself even more?
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Survey done !
The pollies need to realise that bullbars don't kill people. Drivers kill people >:(
The road toll isn't going to decrease just by banning bullbars.
Cheers Keith :cheers:
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Why is it some 4wd drivers think it’s ok to drive around with their bullbar mounted rod holders fitted when they're obviously not going fishing? Given there is enough focus on bullbars, do you need to draw attention to yourself even more?
x2
Its called arrogance, the 'no one can stop me doing whatever I damn well want' syndrome. Beside, its the fault of the kid / their parents if they run onto the road and are impaled on my rod holder ... so don't blame me.
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Those "burger makers" (rod holders) should be banned. Who in their right mind would want their expensive fishing gear on the bull bar getting flies and Christ knows what stuck on it?
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TFB, ... "who?" ... what the Kiwis would call "wenkers". ... "Look at me, I own fishing rods, but left 'em at home!"
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TFB, ... "who?" ... what the Kiwis would call "wenkers". ... "Look at me, I own fishing rods, but left 'em at home!"
:cup: Love it Barry!!
:cheers: Cracka
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TFB, ... "who?" ... what the Kiwis would call "wenkers". ... "Look at me, I own fishing rods, but left 'em at home!"
:cup:
"fushing ruds" surely? ;D
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dukhids!!!
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The most important modification you can make to your 4WD is a bullbar. Not only does it allow you to run a winch, lights and gives you a mounting place for your UHF aerial, most importantly it protects your vehicle and the people inside it against animal strikes.
Hidden under the disguise of pedestrian safety, a minority group wants bullbars banned, and what’s worse is that the government agrees with them.
They want European regulations brought into Australia, and if these regulations (GTR9) are brought in, the aftermarket industry will not be able to make bullbars or even nudge bars comply. Bullbars will be banned. Commonsense (lacking in many government decisions lately) tells us that European regulations don’t have any place in Australia and won’t work. Our road conditions are very different. Animal strikes are a very common occurrence in Australia.
Their spin is that this will only affect new vehicles. However, we know this will eventually mean the ban of all bullbars.
4WD touring in Australia will end.
You are probably thinking adopting these regulations is so crazy and absurd that banning bullbars could never happen. Believe me, this is very real and is happening now. This will affect every 4WD owner.
Here’s how you can stop this:
Please visit takeaction.4wdaction.com.au now to submit your protest. It will take under a minute and could potentially save 4WD touring in this country.
The government only listens to one thing – how many votes they stand to lose. With the 4WD community standing together on this, they stand to lose many votes. We need to make a difference, take action and let commonsense prevail.
We NEED your response and we need you to take action today.
Together we can stop this unAustralian nonsense.
Shaun Whale
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Have a look at this link and send the email if you want to keep your bullbar
http://takeaction.4wdaction.com.au/?q=node/2
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Done
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http://myswag.org/forum/index.php?topic=10423
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This isnt a survey D4 its a letter to the minister
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4WD touring in Australia will end.
Got to love the way 4wd action hypes this sort of thing up :laugh:. Sure banning bull bars will inconvenience the majority of 4wders, but it's not going to stop people traveling. I'm going to have a read of the proposal when I'm on nightshift and make up my own mind of what's happening from there, but from this summary ( http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/motor/design/files/Pedestrian_Safety_Requirement_Summary.pdf ) it would seem to only affect new vehicles, not all of thm on the road as the likes of 4wd action would have us believe
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Why can't we ban the idiots that walk in front of the car ??? From my perspective it's not realistic to have us all up here with out a bar. There will be more lives lost on country roads from animal kills than the number of pedestrians killed each year by Bars. They really have no idea in Canberra. There just moving the problem from the city to the country ???
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Assume that bull bars were banned in, say capital cities, but allowed everywhere else. I'm betting that what would happen is that the aftermarket industry would design a system whereby the 'bar' could be removed and replaced with a skirt in about 5 minutes - e.g. using a couple of 40mm square hitch attachment points.
So, pop off the skirt, slot on the bar, put in a couple of hitch pin, plug in the winch & fog / driving / spot light wires, and you'd be off!
No doubt the devil would be in the detail, but there would also be up-side ... just imagine the savings on fuel, with mum's taxi not lugging a bull/kiddie/nanna catcher, winch and driving lights to drop the little darlings at school or get the groceries at the supermarket!
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Assume that bull bars were banned in, say capital cities, but allowed everywhere else. I'm betting that what would happen is that the aftermarket industry would design a system whereby the 'bar' could be removed and replaced with a skirt in about 5 minutes - e.g. using a couple of 40mm square hitch attachment points.
So, pop off the skirt, slot on the bar, put in a couple of hitch pin, plug in the winch & fog / driving / spot light wires, and you'd be off!
No doubt the devil would be in the detail, but there would also be up-side ... just imagine the savings on fuel, with mum's taxi not lugging a bull/kiddie/nanna catcher, winch and driving lights to drop the little darlings at school or get the groceries at the supermarket!
Barry, Barry, Barry
Now we had this chat before.
Just damn well comply with what the industry is telling you. Its all over. Unsafe to leave your driveway anymore. Dont think for godsake.
This is a warning. If you dont stop damn well 'thinking' the 'boys' from 4wdbogan will come and get you 'Old Skool'!
>:(
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The most important modification you can make to your 4WD is a bullbar. Not only does it allow you to run a winch, lights and gives you a mounting place for your UHF aerial, most importantly it protects your vehicle and the people inside it against animal strikes.
Hidden under the disguise of pedestrian safety, a minority group wants bullbars banned, and what’s worse is that the government agrees with them.
They want European regulations brought into Australia, and if these regulations (GTR9) are brought in, the aftermarket industry will not be able to make bullbars or even nudge bars comply. Bullbars will be banned. Commonsense (lacking in many government decisions lately) tells us that European regulations don’t have any place in Australia and won’t work. Our road conditions are very different. Animal strikes are a very common occurrence in Australia.
Their spin is that this will only affect new vehicles. However, we know this will eventually mean the ban of all bullbars.
4WD touring in Australia will end.
You are probably thinking adopting these regulations is so crazy and absurd that banning bullbars could never happen. Believe me, this is very real and is happening now. This will affect every 4WD owner.
Here’s how you can stop this:
Please visit takeaction.4wdaction.com.au now to submit your protest. It will take under a minute and could potentially save 4WD touring in this country.
The government only listens to one thing – how many votes they stand to lose. With the 4WD community standing together on this, they stand to lose many votes. We need to make a difference, take action and let commonsense prevail.
We NEED your response and we need you to take action today.
Together we can stop this unAustralian nonsense.
Shaun Whale
Hi shaun
The standards are not about banning bullbars as much as you may wish to spin it. They are about increasing the survivability of frontal impact. I would have thought that a pretty "australian" thing to want to do, wouldn't you? Looking after our mates, caring for each other. Even if we dont know who it is we are caring about - the queensland floods kind of showed that.
Lets try and be a little balanced here shall we?
The end of 4wd touring? What rubbish. I have travelled all over oz, in daylight and at night, in vehicles with a bullbar and those without. Was I shaking with fear when it didn't have a bullbar - of course not. Did I modify my driving without the bar - no. I still drove to the conditions, slowed at dawn and dusk and was more careful at night.
"The most important modification you can make to your 4WD is a bullbar. Not only does it allow you to run a winch, lights and gives you a mounting place for your UHF aerial, most importantly it protects your vehicle and the people inside it against animal strikes."
Really? Lets look at these individually;
1. Allows you to run a winch. You dont need a bullbar to run a winch. You need a cradle to mount it to the chassis. The cradle does not need to protrude outside of the vehicle and can be covered with a protective deformable case to meet the impact standard.
2. Mount lights. You dont need a bullbar to mount lights. I ran 4 super oscars on my rally car and didnt need a bullbar to do it. What could we do instead? We could upgrade to HID headlights, have the driving lights mounted within the bumper inside the crush zone. We could even lobby to allow the lights above the roofline. All achievable.
3. A mounting place for your uhf aerial. Where could we mount that? On the roof maybe. Off the spare wheel carrier.
4. Protects the vehicle and occupants from animal strike. They certainly do this. But this can be done within the standard. It does not take a rocket scientist to work out that to meet the standard the bar would need to be encased in a 'shell' that will meet the standard. A smart manufacturer would throw in a spare shell with the purchase and a smart insurance company would throw in a free shell replacement with the insurance policy.
"Commonsense (lacking in many government decisions lately) tells us that European regulations don’t have any place in Australia and won’t work."
Why? They have roads, they have children, old people, drunk people, they have motorways with high speeds, they have remote areas - just like us!. Or do we think of Paris when we think of europe.
We have kangaroos of course so that must make a bullbar particularly "Australian". What large animals do the Europeans have?
They have wild boar, 10 species of deer from small ones to reindeers, Elk (Moose) and bears. Bears caught my eye - at least our roos dont want to eat us after we hit them.
"We need to make a difference, take action and let commonsense prevail."
What would commonsense dictate?
Would it be to make outlandish and silly statements that create an uprising of concern and fear amongst one particular group that is not based on reality. Would it be to blame another group ( I will take a stab in the dark and guess you mean the pedestrian council) for the problem.
Or would it be to embrace the concept of minimising harm to ALL Australians, whether they are driving a 4wd or not, and work with the Govt to achieve a good outcome for all. We can have a system that protects the vehicle from animal strikes AND those unfortunate to be struck by a vehicle (whether the fault of the driver or the pedestrian). Sure its not going to be as 'tough' looking as the bars we have today but surely thats not the driving factor is it?
I visited the link to your letter to the minister. I think I will pass thanks. More than happy to have another look once you have taken the garbage out of it.
Regards
Darren
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Dazzler bugger off with your logic, this is an emotional debate only on both sides! ;D ;D ;D
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Dazzler bugger off with your logic, this is an emotional debate only on both sides! ;D ;D ;D
Sorry :D
I do get the concerns, but lets just be honest about what they are.
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done it,
where's the survey / polls to keep our parks open and ditch permits to visit land we all own
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done it,
where's the survey / polls to keep our parks open and ditch permits to visit land we all own
So true,,,,
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The problem is not really about banning bullbars , its more to do about banning as our NZ friends call them "wenkers" , those city 4x4 owners who's vehicles spend 99.9% of its life nowhere close to an animal unless you count soccer mums with their kids as animals. That once a year 2-3 week trip out west with 99% of the journey on asphalt highways does not justify the city living 4x4 needing a bullbar - 4" lift -umpteen extra lights -34" muddies etc , ,, ever stop to think how come the people who actually live in the bush- west get by without all the so called "needed extras" , could it just be that in real life they are not needed ?
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The problem is not really about banning bullbars , its more to do about banning as our NZ friends call them "wenkers" , those city 4x4 owners who's vehicles spend 99.9% of its life nowhere close to an animal unless you count soccer mums with their kids as animals. That once a year 2-3 week trip out west with 99% of the journey on asphalt highways does not justify the city living 4x4 needing a bullbar - 4" lift -umpteen extra lights -34" muddies etc , ,, ever stop to think how come the people who actually live in the bush- west get by without all the so called "needed extras" , could it just be that in real life they are not needed ?
So true, while I intend fitting a replacement alloy bumper to my car, with combined 'nudge' bar, it is more for better approach angle on mountain tracks (and somewhere to hang a water bag) than anything else. Those with a 'need' to do long distances at night, or who are taking their rig off road in the high country / gulf might also need all this kit - spotties / fogs bar & winch, etc. In reality this is about a magazine looking after its life blood (advertising) of selling ad space to toy manufacturers, who want to convince us big kids to buy their toys.
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Take bullbars off vehicles and then the next most dangerous thing is vehicles themselves. Then we can ban them. Then people will get hurt running to work. Maybe then we can ban running or even better, going to work.
Im glad you guys are a minority.
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... the next most dangerous thing is vehicles themselves. Then we can ban them. ...
Im glad you guys are a minority.
Vehicles are built to comply to an impact standard, so nobody is talking about banning them. This is exactly the sort of BS and drivel that some of us have been pointing out.
All this is about is applying similar standards to bars on vehicles that spend 99.5% of their time running around suburban streets.
As to who is in a minority, I think that the jury might be in on that. ... After all 50% of the population don't need 'big bits' for purposes of impressing whoever.
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Take bullbars off vehicles and then the next most dangerous thing is vehicles themselves. Then we can ban them. Then people will get hurt running to work. Maybe then we can ban running or even better, going to work.
Im glad you guys are a minority.
HI Laith
Barry, myself and others have been trying to point out that the proposed standards are not about bullbars. The changes will apply to every single vehicle that is registered AFTER the changes. Its not, and cannot be, retrospective because if I buy a car today and modify it to meet the current standard then I am fine. The bullbar debate has been ignited by the aftermarket industry (and affiliated business) because its going to cost them $$ to comply.
No-one will have to take their bullbar off.
What will change is that future bullbars will need to meet the standard, thats all. And the industry is not happy because the new bars will look softer from the outside and probably wont sell as well, because it will be difficult for some to get their heads around the fact that just because they cant SEE steel everywhere that the bar is still there.
The other thing that the industry is probably concerned about is the fact that the vehicle manufacturer will simply modify the substructure of the new compliant front bumper to include a winch cradle and Supplementary Frontal Impact structure (a bullbar with an external shell) and sell it as a factory accessory.
How is this anything but a win-win for everyone?. Everyone who CURRENTLY has a bullbar can keep it. All NEW vehicles will be safer for pedestrians (our kids/family/friends/people we dont know) and if you want the ADDED benefits of a bullbar then you can have that too.
cheers
darren
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dazzler - of course this new bullbar will cost around the 3-4 k mark. dont forget that.
im in two minds about this - i like the idea of a removable bullbar so when you are driving around the city - you dont have it in place - but when you are country driving you can easily attach it. i dont agree that city soccer mums require full time bullbars.
however there are plenty of roo strikes where i live - and as for the dawn and dusk argument - well i drive to work at 5.05 am and drive home at 6 to get home at 6.40pm or reverse the am and pm for night shift- same as 80 odd percent of the people out here in kal who work on the mines. every day we are on the road at the worst possible time - especially in winter.
at the old place i worked - the shift bus was written off by a roo strike - the first thing we tell the kiwis when they are new here is dont swerve - hit them front on - there are still guys who swerve and roll their vehicles - with a bullbar you feel more confident and are less likely to do this.
so yeah - mixed feelings about this issue
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how about his then
if you are a city dweller - you get two options - removable bar or some new fancy super pedestrian bar
country dweller - normal bar or removable or super pedestrian - if you go for the normal bar you are not permitted to have the vehicle reside in the city
however : if the government forces me to buy a 3-4 k bar due to actions not my own - ie pedestrians not looking where they are going - then they can subsidise it down to the cost of a regular bullbar. i wouldnt mind if 4wds were regularly jumping the kerb and hunting down poor pedestrians - but the fact of the matter is its the inattention of pedestrians crossing the road that is the issue - so why should we pay for someone elses mistake.
this is half the problem in society these days - they are getting cause and effect arse around backwards
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i wouldn't mind if 4wds were regularly jumping the kerb and hunting down poor pedestrians - but the fact of the matter is its the inattention of pedestrians crossing the road that is the issue - so why should we pay for someone elses mistake.
this is half the problem in society these days - they are getting cause and effect arse around backwards
Don't you know it's always somebody Else's fault! ........ Generation Whine
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HI Al
I agree with what much of what you are saying. Except for the pedestrian argument. For some reason the 4wd movement have created a single 'pedestrian' who is always at fault. A sort of harold scroooooobie, wearing a bowler hat, with a cane and a cup of tea walking onto roads looking for a hummer.
The reality is pedestrians are hit for lots of reasons. One of the more common is the crossing with two lanes and one car stops but the car in the free lane doesnt and collects the pedestrian. The other is the red light runner combined with the eager pedestrian. Kids are the other pedestrian conveniently left out of the '4wd pedestrian'. And of course the '4wd pedestrian' wanders onto the road as well. Lots of different ones with degrees of fault.
Where you live it makes sense to have a bullbar that can take multiple strikes and there should be an exemption for rural areas where the probability of hitting a person is way lower than a roo. Maybe there should be zones where you simply cant have one, areas you can have a smart style bar and areas where you can have a steel one. Sure drivers will try and circumvent it by registering the car in one area however that is easily found out by the cops if needed.
cheers!
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HI Al
I agree with what much of what you are saying. Except for the pedestrian argument. For some reason the 4wd movement have created a single 'pedestrian' who is always at fault. A sort of harold scroooooobie, wearing a bowler hat, with a cane and a cup of tea walking onto roads looking for a hummer.
The reality is pedestrians are hit for lots of reasons. One of the more common is the crossing with two lanes and one car stops but the car in the free lane doesnt and collects the pedestrian. The other is the red light runner combined with the eager pedestrian. Kids are the other pedestrian conveniently left out of the '4wd pedestrian'. And of course the '4wd pedestrian' wanders onto the road as well. Lots of different ones with degrees of fault.
Where you live it makes sense to have a bullbar that can take multiple strikes and there should be an exemption for rural areas where the probability of hitting a person is way lower than a roo. Maybe there should be zones where you simply cant have one, areas you can have a smart style bar and areas where you can have a steel one. Sure drivers will try and circumvent it by registering the car in one area however that is easily found out by the cops if needed.
cheers!
x2 Not hard to work out those who need it. Really hard to see why city based tourists wouldn't be adequately served by something integral. For example, built in front hitch for the demountable winch.
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So how many pedestrians have been killed because a vehicle has a bull bar?
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Speed kills from what we are told but we can all go and buy a 260kw V8 commodore or falcon. You could ask why people need 260kw on Australian roads. Why not pick on them lol. (By the way, Id love one. Has to be a Holden though).
At the end of the day we, as Australians are one by one having choices made for us. We are being told what is and isn't safe/right for us to do. If we don't just have the decision made for us we get a tax to persuade us.
NK. I too would be curious to see the numbers in relation to bullbars being used. We should also not forget that sometimes if a car hits you, bullbar or not your done. (This is my assumption).
Anyway one thing we can all agree on is that we wont all agree on this. :cheers:
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The bullbar debate has been ignited by the aftermarket industry (and affiliated business) because its going to cost them $$ to comply.
Actually if the Euro model is adopted it will cost them their businesses. There is no way to have a steel/alloy bar that complies with the Euro specification. I have colleagues who have moved from AU to the UK who I have talked to about this.
This is what we'll be left with, Mr Smartbar will be rubbing his hands together.
(http://www.vangadgets.co.uk/images/4x4-frontal-protection-system.jpg)
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.... We should also not forget that sometimes if a car hits you, bullbar or not your done. (This is my assumption). ...
If you are hit by a car built to the current standards below the 'design speed' then you "should" be safe. That is the purpose of proposed bull bar standard, to minimise the degrading of the safety standard of a modern car that has been modified by the fitting of a front bar.
However, above a certain speed, no bar or otherwise, the design parameters would be exceeded and injury / death would be an increasingly likely outcome. No-one is arguing against the logic of that.
Anyway one thing we can all agree on is that we wont all agree on this. :cheers:
Agreed mate!
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Barry, I wondered why you were so pro this, then I noticed you drive an Outback. I wonder no more.
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Taken from 4WD Action. From someone that knows how to do research and not promote knee jerk reactions
http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/motor/design/files/Pedestrian_Safety_Requirement_Summary.pdf
Quote:
Where VFPS (bull bars) are fitted, the following would apply (see Table 2):
? *For vehicles not specifically designed for off-road use, such as passenger cars (eg Holden Commodore, Toyota Camry) and 2WD light commercial vehicles (eg Ford Falcon utility, Ford Transit van), a standard similar to the main bull bar standard as adopted in Europe (2005/66/EC as incorporated in EC 78/2009) and similar to GTR 9.
? *For vehicles specifically designed for off-road use, such as 4WD passenger cars (eg Subaru Forester), 4WD light commercial vehicles (eg Toyota Hilux) and 4WD Sports Utility Vehicles or “SUVs” (eg Toyota Landcruiser, Landrover, Nissan Patrol), a standard already established in Australia (Australian Standard 4876.1 2002). This standard would be more design flexible and has already been partly adopted by NSW and Victorian transport authorities.
• The implementation timing would match that of the base vehicle. Therefore, the requirements would begin applying to those new vehicles subject to the ADR on pedestrian safety in 2013 and would be phased in completely by 2019. Vehicles on the road now would not be affected, as the ADRs are not applied retrospectively.
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Barry, I wondered why you were so pro this, then I noticed you drive an Outback. I wonder no more.
Ah, of course the 'conspiracy theory' again... (dealt with the "blame the Nazi syndrome a fair way back in this thread)
Hate to burst the bubble however:
1/. I was one of the first to sign the petition - all in favour of the RFDS getting some dollars;
2/. I am about to fit a front bar which is compliant with the current regs (and I believe will also be compliant with those proposed, based on the post from alanjan, immediately above - Iwonder what alanjan drive? ...;
3/. How do you account for Dazzler, who drives a Land Rover ? ...
All that Dazzler, alanjan and I are saying is that the hype spread by the self-interested magazine does not stand a reality check, in that no-one is proposing banning bull bars, merely ensuring that they don't reduce the safety standard built into cars of a given model year, from 2013 onwards. But that doesn't assist inselling magazines, based on a knee jerk reaction, in an ever tighter publishing market.
Now, ... where did I leave my bowler hat? ;D
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All that Dazzler, alanjan and I are saying is that the hype spread by the self-interested magazine does not stand a reality check, in that no-one is proposing banning bull bars, merely ensuring that they don't reduce the safety standard built into cars of a given model year, from 2013 onwards.
Well actually it does, if you read my post re what is available in the UK we'll end up the same way. In reality after 2013 there will be no more steel/alloy bars. The bar for your outback probably won't be compliant either. Smartbar anyone...
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At present it is only a proposal on what to do in the future.
Obviously we do not want to see the end of bull bars, but I think the days are limited of the backyard jobs and other either poorly or non engineered bars and other bars that are def pedestrian unfriendly particularly some of the tube bars.
As for what I drive, mine is a 89 DC Hilux, complete with bull bar (complete with winch, lights, recovery points and aerial) and brush bars, Jan has a 03 Suzuki Grand Vitara which we will be getting a bull bar for, the two kids each have a Subaru Outback, which will probably stay standard for a while to come.
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We may be OK, i found this on our 4wd club website.
Hi Delegates,
I had an interesting conversation today with Steven Hoy, (Dept of infrastructure & Transport, NSW)
He tells me that there was no intention of banning the Bullbar, and that they have put a bulletin onto their website to that effect. To save you the trouble of looking I have attached a copy of that bulletin, but for those that want to check the website here it is.
http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/motor/design/adr_comment.aspx
However vehicles from 2013 will be subjected to this ADR Australian Standard 4876.1 2002, which is supposedly going to be more flexible? And to be fully implemented by 2019. Whatever evolves for 2013 onwards with the ADR Standard, will not have any affect on vehicles produced prior to 2013 as it will not be retrospective.
From attachment I have cut & pasted an extract from it.
“For vehicles specifically designed for off-road use, such as 4WD passenger cars (eg
Subaru Forester), 4WD light commercial vehicles (eg Toyota Hilux) and 4WD Sports
Utility Vehicles or “SUVs” (eg Toyota Landcruiser, Landrover, Nissan Patrol), a
standard already established in Australia (Australian Standard 4876.1 2002). This
standard would be more design flexible and has already been partly adopted by NSW and
Victorian transport authoritie”.
Steven did go on to say that the EU standard is for passenger, 2wdrive and light commercial vehicles.
4Wdrives will only be subject to the ADR standards.
There was talk of urban and rural vehicles, that is if you lived in the city you were regarded as urban and if you lived in the bush you are rural. 2wd vehicles classed as urban, no vehicle frontal protection, but if you are rural, then you will have some sort of vehicle frontal protection.
Read the attachment including the tables on page 2 and make up your own minds. For my mind, the words of Don Chip keep coming back. “Don’t Trust The Bastards”.
We still need to be vigilant on this and keep referring clubs/members/public to complete the surveys and build up our ammunition and keep our powder dry.
Regards,
Eric Morey
President 4WDAustralia
president@4wdaustralia.asn.au
0427 772601
;D
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This subject seems to come up at least once a year for some reason. Must help sell magazines or something or perhaps bullbars...!!??? (What's the real conspiracy...??...mmmm)
In any case, if you think this through to its logical conclusion, you will soon realise a bad on bullbars wil NEVER happen for one reason only......The rural vote. No government in its right mind would ever ban bullbars for fear of a massive backlash from the cockies.
Rest easy guys and gals...!
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I just did a very quick google of pedestrian fatalities.
http://www.tacsafety.com.au/jsp/content/NavigationController.do?areaID=12&tierID=1&navID=57348A10&navLink=null&pageID=149
The site I found seems to be Victorian stats.
50 killed in 2009, 17% of road fatalities.
80% were in Melbourne metro area
66% were in 50kph or 60kph areas
No info on how many of these had or did not have a bullbar, but I would think a good guess would be that more vehicles DID NOT have a bar.
Seems to me that as per usual, Govts. are good at finding solutions for problems that don't exist.
By the way I live in Canberra and can tell you that during the drought I saw 'thousands' of roos IN Canberra. On my nightly return home (11.00pm or later) I would pass at least 30 roos 'grazing the long paddock' nearly every night.
Would Canberra be classified 'city' or 'rural', and please no Canberra bashing. Real people live here too!
A few other facts;
Death tolls that are higher than the road toll each year include;
breast cancer
prostate cancer
bowel cancer
workplace accidents
Lots of these could be preventable deaths, but they don't make as much money as 'road safety'.
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By the way I live in Canberra and can tell you that during the drought I saw 'thousands' of roos IN Canberra. On my nightly return home (11.00pm or later) I would pass at least 30 roos 'grazing the long paddock' nearly every night.
Would Canberra be classified 'city' or 'rural', and please no Canberra bashing. Real people live here too!
Hi ytt
Love Canberra. Wish the media would stop referring to Canberra and Politicians in the same sentence. There not Canberrans >:(
Anyways. Canberra has lots of roos. And lots get hit by cars. But no-one has been killed by a kangaroo strike in Canberra for as long as I can remember. Maybe it happened when i was away for holidays at some stage but cant recall it ever happening. The closest was two drunk chicks hitting one on the Monaro late one night and it ended up in with them going off its nut. A few scratches but that was all. I also rode a bike or drove a car for seven hours a day/night, most days and never hit one. Probability was high but I suppose I was lucky.
Canberra is rural. But the stats will not support bullbars as a safety issue, I guarantee you. An insurance issue of course, but thats only money, not lives.
The proposal is not anti bullbar. Its not vehicles with bullbars vs those without. Its about reducing the degree of injury to pedestrians from ALL cars. Bullbars have been dragged into it because they will be the most difficult for manufacturers to modify to comply. But the manufacturers lie, and get 4wders all worked up for their own benefit because europe already has euro compliant bars. Sure they may not be tough looking, but I am sure we can deal with that.
So your figures re Victoria are correct but to then bring bullbars into it does not automatically follow. The question is of those deaths how many would have survived if ALL vehicles met the euro specs. It also doesn't take into account how many were seriously injured (head injuries/spinal etc) which would be a far larger sample.
So the proposal has to be kept in context. Its about reducing road trauma to pedestrians from ALL new vehicles, not bullbar equipped ones.
cheers
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We won!! Well I thnk we did?? ;D
http://www.4wdaction.com.au/news/44599-mammoth-victory-saves-bullbars
GG
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Thats good to hear, glad i filled out the letters and survey now
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;D got a link to the official press release
http://www.minister.infrastructure.gov.au/ck/releases/2011/February/CK006_2011.htm :cheers:
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Stick that up your Khyber Pass, Harold Scruby....!!
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And you a Subi driver and all Darcy. >:D
I wonder if those driving around with their burger cutters 'armed' will now be 'victimised' for ... um ... breaking the law? :police:
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Geez, a politician with the backbone of a jelly fish......who'd a thunk it ;D
Bloody democracy :cheers:
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And you a Subi driver and all Darcy. >:D
HA HA Fact is I probably represent everything that guy hates. Big 4WD with bullbar, fast car with loud exhaust and a full head of hair at 42..!
Actually maybe I can go all out and create something like this...
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If they made the smart bar less offensive to the eye, I feel there would be more who could sway.
Personally, if the smart bar wasn't so ugly, I'd have one. I don't care if others think it looks great, I can't stand the look and I'd have to never walk past the front of my car again. But functionality is great. I had one on a mining ute, you could bump into things, push other cars etc, really handy. It was just so ugly.
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If they made the smart bar less offensive to the eye, I feel there would be more who could sway.
Personally, if the smart bar wasn't so ugly, I'd have one. I don't care if others think it looks great, I can't stand the look and I'd have to never walk past the front of my car again. But functionality is great. I had one on a mining ute, you could bump into things, push other cars etc, really handy. It was just so ugly.
I think that is the real point Danbri, the anti-campaign has been responded to primarily by the 4X4 version of 'ricer boys' who are more interested in looks than functionality.
There is absolutely no doubt that with several years lead time, our wonderful free enterprise system could've refined the smart bar so it was more of a 'fashion statement' - although Roothy would probably never be satisfied with anything less than rusty angle iron.
Magazine and accessory industry are primarily about consuming fashion - not function, but it is not in their interests to say so, and the hairy chested 'followers of fashion' would certainly never admit to anything so 'girlie'!
Of course it breaks the rules of 4X4 political correctness to say any of this, but surprising how many agree with it over a beer 1:1.
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If you've never hit anything, you might think bull bars are all about cosmetics, and that plastic is OK.
A few years ago, on a dark moonless night, we hit a cow at 110km/h on the Hume freeway, near Wandong.
I'm staying with steel..........
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Hand a little whoopsie into the arse of a car the other day and brushed the paint of my bar, $7000 damage to the other other car.. May have been a lot more if i copped damage aslo...
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If you've never hit anything, you might think bull bars are all about cosmetics, and that plastic is OK.
A few years ago, on a dark moonless night, we hit a cow at 110km/h on the Hume freeway, near Wandong.
I'm staying with steel..........
Depending on the size of the cow do you really think a steel bar will make any difference. With some of the cattle on the roads up here it makes no difference what you have on the front. We where traveling home one night a few years ago and came across a coaster that hit a cow, driver was trapped in the bus with his legs pinned and that had a nice solid steel bar on the front
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If they made the smart bar less offensive to the eye, I feel there would be more who could sway.
Personally, if the smart bar wasn't so ugly, I'd have one. I don't care if others think it looks great, I can't stand the look and I'd have to never walk past the front of my car again. But functionality is great. I had one on a mining ute, you could bump into things, push other cars etc, really handy. It was just so ugly.
The reason I don't like the Smart Bars is not there looks but their lack of practicality when a winch is attached, and this also applies to some other big name bull bars. Anyone that has actually used a winch one thing you need to be able to do is to see the winch drum to check how the wire/rope is winding on the drum. We had an incident at work were the winch was used and unless you are lying under the vehicle (good spot to be when winching) you can not see the drum, at all.
Bull bars, across the board do need to be refined and improved, not only in looks, but in practical use, apart from vehicle protection and further research and development to be pedestrian friendly.
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I think that is the real point Danbri, the anti-campaign has been responded to primarily by the 4X4 version of 'ricer boys' who are more interested in looks than functionality.
Based on what research?
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Based on what research?
Danbris earlier post clearly indicated direct experience of using smart bars. My point is that, by contrast, none of those railing against anything but steel had indicated any use of the alternatives - and heaps of the posts referenced the LOOKS of the smart bars as a major concern.
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If you've never hit anything, you might think bull bars are all about cosmetics, and that plastic is OK.
A few years ago, on a dark moonless night, we hit a cow at 110km/h on the Hume freeway, near Wandong.
I'm staying with steel..........
Have a bro who has lived in those parts for years, 1 x Cruiser and 1 x Tarago, no bar on either. I also visit and travel late. At night I try to drive within stopping distance of my lights, but Black Angus could easily be indistinguishable from the road.
If there is a need for bars on the Hume then maybe driving is just too damn dangerous. The number of trucks on that road you were unlucky to not just come across 'diced beef'!
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Danbris earlier post clearly indicated direct experience of using smart bars. My point is that, by contrast, none of those railing against anything but steel had indicated any use of the alternatives - and heaps of the posts referenced the LOOKS of the smart bars as a major concern.
They don't make a 120 version so there is no alternative for me
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I read about this in the Camper Trailer Australia mag.... I wonder how many people will die from hitting large animals like kangaroos, cow, horses, camels..... once they're no longer allowed to have a bull bar. 4wding will become too dangerous not to mention farming!
CAT mag says that animals esp roos were responsible for over 20,000 collisions in 2009.
Another survey if anyone is interested. www.4wdcouncil.com.au.
Bureaucrats wake up.
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Alnjan, Smartbar actually make a winch bar, uses a steel cradle and mounting points to the chassis ,
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Yeah I know, but they do not make it so that you can see the rope spooling onto the drum. When you are winching it is a very handy feature to see how the rope is spooling to be able to prevent any potential fouling of the rope