Author Topic: Cattle in the high country - 'dog whistleing' only fools dogs...  (Read 20486 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Barry G

  • Hard Top Camper User
  • ******
  • Posts: 2613
  • Thanked: 29 times
  • Gender: Male
  • For my 'Pop' l.Cpl Tom Powell, A Comp.21Batt.6Brig
Have been accused on another thread of being GREENWASHED, whatever that is, and called for BS, in relation to comments concerning cattle in the high country.
In particular, I find comments to ... 'tell your bushwalker mates..."  offensive 'dog whistleing' - .i.e. using an unstated implication to disparage the messenger, rather than debating the issue.  
Other posters had however requested details of the scientific evidence in relation to cattle in the high country.

I googled Maisie Fawcett, one of the earliest scientific researchers on the subject, and came up with a list of links including an archived site which includes an extensive list  of research papers, for those who are interested.
http://www.cowpaddock.com/references.html  (Should be enough references there to keep you happy Speewa!)
There is a link on this page ( titled: Independent assessment of the science ) by R.H. Groves, Senior Principal Research Scientist, CSIRO Plant Industry.  This is essentially a basic peer review of the research.

Yes, it is on the VNPA web site - but that doesn't alter the science, even for those who dog whistle "bushwalker" as a synonym for 'pinko'.

If anyone has other peer reviewed science, either supporting or contrary to the views expressed, feel free to post them here.

Happy to discuss - I don't recon it needs to become a variation on the 12 volt thread.
 

« Last Edit: March 03, 2011, 10:45:21 PM by barry1956 »
2000 Jackaroo Monterey 2002 Jackaroo 'Equipe' & Heaslip soft floor rear fold camper.
05 Subaru Outback Weekender GOGO Camper
 i hope for a better world for my kids, and yours, not just a bigger slice of the current one!

Offline darren

  • Hard Top Camper User
  • ******
  • Posts: 3755
  • Thanked: 3 times
  • Gender: Male
  • "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius"
    • CampingAustralia.org
Re: Cattle in the high country - 'dog whistleing' only fools dogs...
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2011, 07:07:35 AM »
This is in reply to both the hut thread and this one
I am quite unusual (apart from the obvious) because I bushwalk, 4wd and ride dirt bikes in the bush. So technically I should hate myself. When I scramble along a narrow off trail ridge and set up my tarp in a secluded saddle alone I think to myself I’m so glad there are no trails up here.  Now take 4wd campers. Most like the ability to get to out of the way places and set up camp at a quiet spot at the end of a trail that most cant traverse, and they think to themselves “I'm glad there is no tar roads up here”.  We have seen on this site the furore when it is suggested that  some of the more iconic roads are opened up to allow cars.
 The more people that go somewhere the more chance it has of getting destroyed. Solo walking in off trail areas you find the land totally untouched.  But as these areas become more popular it starts to show signs of wear.  Lets take an example of a cave on a remote outcrop. If only a few people know about it and there are no trails then tho only people that visit it are the very keen so there is a good chance it will stay pristine. Lets say the NPWS see benefit in this and they make a formed trail to it, maybe put camp pads near it. Now it is accessible to a lot more hikers, so the chance of people leaving rubbish or Shitting close to camp increases. Now lets say there is a hard 4wd track to it. More people come. But as its hard only those that are keen and interested in the cave come and visit , you will start to see a bit more rubbish, and maybe some off track driving.  As the road gets better the masses of 4wders turn up. And as the numbers increase so does the chances of idiots. More empty cans, fires lit in the cave , trees cut down for wood, maybe a few doughnuts. Then the road becomes 2wd, more people more chances of idiots, then eventually its trashed.
 My recent trip to the high country showed me the worst of the 4wd kind.,
 So you all need to understand, you are all the same, just as a bushwalker gets accused of being a greenie for not wanting 4wd’s, a 4wdver may be accused of the same for not wanting tar and car parks. The biggest threat to all of us are idiots and unfortunately they cross all streams…
 Back on  cattle. Any  domesticated animal with hooves will cut up the land. Cows are stupid. I have them. They stand in my dams drinking and Shit, other than humans what other animal would Shit in his own nest. The high country we all love is not the natural high country. Pre the fires there was a canopy of snow gums with no understory then native grasses. Years of grazing removed the understory and allowed light through to the ground for the grass to thrive.  First the cattle was removed, then the fires. They were so hot all the gums were killed but they regrow from their  Lignotuber and soon regrowth occurs. Also opertunistic trees like acacia shoot up quick so you have the low mass of scrub you see now. Over many years the trees will regrow but without cattle there will always  be an understory.
 I live on the slopes of the Barrington’s. There are pigs, horses and cattle up on the plateau they to terrible damage, scotch broom has taken over the scrub and Phytophthora has spread to a large area.
 None of us ‘genuine’ people want the bush destroyed and we want to enjoy it in our own way. So perhaps instead of the greeny/ redneck name calling there could be a more combined approach where each gives a little to gain a lot.
 Sorry for being serious.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 09:07:46 AM by darren »
Living the Dream.

Offline escape

  • Swag User
  • **
  • Posts: 68
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cattle in the high country - 'dog whistleing' only fools dogs...
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2011, 07:23:55 AM »
Darren,don't apologise for being honest.That is one of the best replies to any subject I have ever read and I whole heartedly endorse it.
Trevor

Offline Redback

  • Hard Top Camper User
  • ******
  • Posts: 1931
  • Thanked: 26 times
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cattle in the high country - 'dog whistleing' only fools dogs...
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2011, 07:34:19 AM »
Re-introducing cattle into the high country is a stupid idea, their main reasoning is even stupider(is that a word) it is a scientific fact that grazing does not reduce the risk of fire, one reason, cattle don't eat leaf litter

Imagine camping at your favourite camping spot 12 to 24mths after they re-introduce cattle, maybe you can use the the cow pats as a subtitute for bollards >:D >:D

As an excample;

We camped at Buemba Flat Xmas 06 12mths after cattle where removed, there were cow pats everywhere, bare ground where the cattle would rip up the grass, and basically stomp the ground bare, hoof marks and uneven ground in and near the creek that runs through the camp site, just a lot of damage, even the Vic parks campsite was like this, which is on the other side of the creek from the State Forest campsite, 4yrs later we stopped there in 2010/11, both campsites and the surrounding area was lush and green, ground was flat, minimal hoof damage, it just looked fabulous, it has gone from a pretty ordinary campsite to a very good campsite.

Now if we could only stop the hoons ripping up the track in, it would be perfect >:D

This is just one of many campsites that have benifitted from the removal of grazing in the high country, there is enough damage with all the horses, pigs, dogs and cats without cattle adding to it!!!

Baz.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 07:37:55 AM by Redback »
Cheers Baz.

2011 Discovery 4 TDV6
1990 Perentie FFR  
Lightweight Camper.
1973 Kawasaki H2a 750 
1979 BMW R80/7
1983 BMW R100RT ex Police
2006 BMW R1200GS
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fool

Offline dno

  • Hard Top Camper User
  • ******
  • Posts: 1865
  • Thanked: 3 times
  • Welcome to gods country
Re: Cattle in the high country - 'dog whistleing' only fools dogs...
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2011, 07:39:59 AM »
What a great reply Darren. Verry true.
"The first half of our lives are ruined by our parents  and the second half by our children."

                      Clarence Day

     http://www.youtube.com/user/67dno/videos

Offline D4D

  • Hard Top Camper User
  • ******
  • Posts: 16015
  • Thanked: 390 times
  • Are we there yet?
Re: Cattle in the high country - 'dog whistleing' only fools dogs...
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2011, 08:00:49 AM »
Darren, how dare you post such a logical response  :cup:
I owe, I owe, it’s off to work I go…

Work - Outback
Play - Prado

Offline darren

  • Hard Top Camper User
  • ******
  • Posts: 3755
  • Thanked: 3 times
  • Gender: Male
  • "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius"
    • CampingAustralia.org
Re: Cattle in the high country - 'dog whistleing' only fools dogs...
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2011, 08:02:06 AM »
Darren, how dare you post such a logical response  :cup:

I promise to try harder next time
Living the Dream.

Offline DANBRI

  • "Canvas Undies Never Die"
  • Hard Top Camper User
  • ******
  • Posts: 2773
  • Thanked: 1 times
  • Gender: Male
  • www.campingaustralia.org
Re: Cattle in the high country - 'dog whistleing' only fools dogs...
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2011, 08:03:33 AM »
I reckon, I didn't sign up as a mate with that logical tool.

Whoever you are, get out of darren's myswag account!

Offline toad

  • Soft Floor Camper User
  • ****
  • Posts: 612
  • Thanked: 1 times
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cattle in the high country - 'dog whistleing' only fools dogs...
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2011, 08:08:41 AM »
 Maybe I had a little too much red wine last night but after reading Barry1956's topic several times, I am still not sure what he is trying to say. Maybe I need to drink from Speewa's water bottle.
 Baz, are you for or against cattle in the high country or just opening up the debate?

Incisive response Darren.

cheers
Gary
2009 Cruiser 200 TTD
2007 Navara D40 2.5TD - wife's shopping trolley
2014 AOR Quantum

Offline D4D

  • Hard Top Camper User
  • ******
  • Posts: 16015
  • Thanked: 390 times
  • Are we there yet?
Re: Cattle in the high country - 'dog whistleing' only fools dogs...
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2011, 09:30:33 AM »
Maybe I had a little too much red wine last night but after reading Barry1956's topic several times, I am still not sure what he is trying to say.

Is Barry, Harold Scruby's brother? First bullbars now cattle grazing  ;D
I owe, I owe, it’s off to work I go…

Work - Outback
Play - Prado

Offline DANBRI

  • "Canvas Undies Never Die"
  • Hard Top Camper User
  • ******
  • Posts: 2773
  • Thanked: 1 times
  • Gender: Male
  • www.campingaustralia.org
Re: Cattle in the high country - 'dog whistleing' only fools dogs...
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2011, 09:35:18 AM »
Barry will be the first to tour Australia by Hovercraft. You know, minimising impact and all that.


Offline GU Rich

  • "RED DUST BOUND"
  • 2017 National Meet Volunteer
  • Hard Top Camper User
  • *****
  • Posts: 4368
  • Thanked: 10 times
  • Gender: Male
  • SMOKE IN YOUR EYES, NOW THAT'S CAMPING.
Re: Cattle in the high country - 'dog whistleing' only fools dogs...
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2011, 10:03:58 AM »
Barry will be the first to tour Australia by Hovercraft. You know, minimising impact and all that.


I have been up the Snowy River in a hovercraft from Orbost is was an awesome experience,  No need to worry about the closed roads because of to much rain  ;D

If it wasn't for High Country Grazing we wouldn't have top movies like the Man From Snowy River and Craigs Hut  8)

Rich

IF YOU SEE US OUT AND ABOUT COME AND SAY G'DAY!

FOLLOW ME ON
https://www.instagram.com/offroad_touring/

Offline Gunna Do

  • "To Infinity and Beyond"
  • Hard Top Camper User
  • ******
  • Posts: 5731
  • Thanked: 8 times
Re: Cattle in the high country - 'dog whistleing' only fools dogs...
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2011, 10:21:13 AM »
If it wasn't for High Country Grazing we wouldn't have top movies like the Man From Snowy River and Craigs Hut  8)
[/quote]

You wouldn't have all the fabulous huts up there either, or all the roads snaking around the place.  It would probably just be a pristene locked and blocked paradise.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 01:40:34 PM by Gunna Do »

Offline darren

  • Hard Top Camper User
  • ******
  • Posts: 3755
  • Thanked: 3 times
  • Gender: Male
  • "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius"
    • CampingAustralia.org
Re: Cattle in the high country - 'dog whistleing' only fools dogs...
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2011, 11:45:55 AM »
I think the question is should they re introduce grazing. I don't think anyone here can go back in time (even with my super powers). People used to clear fell forest too. A lot of the trails we drive on are the result of the timber industry. But i don't thing we want our forest cleared either.
 It seems personality? has prevented the opertunity for discussion.
 As i have past my second post i will stop now...
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 12:30:28 PM by darren »
Living the Dream.

Offline Redback

  • Hard Top Camper User
  • ******
  • Posts: 1931
  • Thanked: 26 times
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cattle in the high country - 'dog whistleing' only fools dogs...
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2011, 12:06:40 PM »
OK shamlessly stolen from AULRO, it is a hot topic over there at the moment!!

http://www.australianalps.environment.gov.au/learn/pubs/grazing.pdf

http://www.ecolsoc.org.au/Position_papers/documents/AlpineGrazing.pdf

Grazing by livestock in the sub-alpine and alpine zones represents a significant threat to water, soil, nature conservation and biodiversity values.

Baz.
Cheers Baz.

2011 Discovery 4 TDV6
1990 Perentie FFR  
Lightweight Camper.
1973 Kawasaki H2a 750 
1979 BMW R80/7
1983 BMW R100RT ex Police
2006 BMW R1200GS
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fool

Offline D4D

  • Hard Top Camper User
  • ******
  • Posts: 16015
  • Thanked: 390 times
  • Are we there yet?
Re: Cattle in the high country - 'dog whistleing' only fools dogs...
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2011, 12:14:46 PM »
Scientists on both sides can write studies and findings to the cows come home (pardon the pun), the reality is there is a cost with everything we as humans do on the planet. The question in this case should be, is the cost worth the benefit rather than should we do this.
I owe, I owe, it’s off to work I go…

Work - Outback
Play - Prado

Offline Redback

  • Hard Top Camper User
  • ******
  • Posts: 1931
  • Thanked: 26 times
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cattle in the high country - 'dog whistleing' only fools dogs...
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2011, 01:03:04 PM »
Scientists on both sides can write studies and findings to the cows come home (pardon the pun), the reality is there is a cost with everything we as humans do on the planet. The question in this case should be, is the cost worth the benefit rather than should we do this.

Only benifit I see, is free grazing land for the farmers.

Baz.
Cheers Baz.

2011 Discovery 4 TDV6
1990 Perentie FFR  
Lightweight Camper.
1973 Kawasaki H2a 750 
1979 BMW R80/7
1983 BMW R100RT ex Police
2006 BMW R1200GS
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fool

Offline D4D

  • Hard Top Camper User
  • ******
  • Posts: 16015
  • Thanked: 390 times
  • Are we there yet?
Re: Cattle in the high country - 'dog whistleing' only fools dogs...
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2011, 01:11:33 PM »
Only benifit I see, is free grazing land for the farmers.

Are you a vegetarian?
I owe, I owe, it’s off to work I go…

Work - Outback
Play - Prado

Offline Redback

  • Hard Top Camper User
  • ******
  • Posts: 1931
  • Thanked: 26 times
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cattle in the high country - 'dog whistleing' only fools dogs...
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2011, 01:41:47 PM »
Are you a vegetarian?

No, are you?
Cheers Baz.

2011 Discovery 4 TDV6
1990 Perentie FFR  
Lightweight Camper.
1973 Kawasaki H2a 750 
1979 BMW R80/7
1983 BMW R100RT ex Police
2006 BMW R1200GS
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fool

Offline toad

  • Soft Floor Camper User
  • ****
  • Posts: 612
  • Thanked: 1 times
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cattle in the high country - 'dog whistleing' only fools dogs...
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2011, 02:11:17 PM »
 Shouldn't the topic be amended to "cattle in the high country national parks"?
For that I agree no cattle should be allowed as it's only free grazing for fat land barons, but if I had a private property in the high country then the national perks would be told where to go.
cheers
Gary
2009 Cruiser 200 TTD
2007 Navara D40 2.5TD - wife's shopping trolley
2014 AOR Quantum

Offline alnjan

  • Hard Top Camper User
  • ******
  • Posts: 2922
  • Thanked: 221 times
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cattle in the high country - 'dog whistleing' only fools dogs...
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2011, 03:01:17 PM »
I can't speak for the High Country as I have never been there, not yet.  Where I have been is in other areas that have had cattle. 

While not based on scientific speak but purely on my own observation, I have seen areas that had previously been used for grazing and now no grazing allowed.  what I have seen in those areas where the grazing has stopped is the increase in the unwanted growth of the likes of lantana, privot, black berries crofton weed etc.  All good plant life for happy camping.  This generally occurs when the likes of Nation Parks etc lock an area up, making it a no go area.  With no maintenance etc, the area just becomes an overgrown mess.

A previous post mentions how cattle have copped up tracks to the creek and made the flat near the creek devoid of vegetation.  Sounds to me like an area the cattle was using to camp as well.  With no cattle the grass has returned and without people camping there and maintaining the area, the grass would again go as other vegetation would be allowed to grow there and you end up with an overgrown camp site. 

From a green view point man, on foot, two wheels or four wheels does more damage to the environment then any cattle or other animal can do. 
Cheers

Al and/or Jan

Offline graham

  • I used to cruise, now i just PATROL
  • Soft Floor Camper User
  • ****
  • Posts: 362
  • Thanked: 4 times
  • Gender: Male
  • nrnr62
Re: Cattle in the high country - 'dog whistleing' only fools dogs...
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2011, 04:40:50 PM »
well spoken Darren,  treat every one as equals
nrnr62

Offline briann532

  • Hard Top Camper User
  • ******
  • Posts: 1839
  • Thanked: 69 times
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cattle in the high country - 'dog whistleing' only fools dogs...
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2011, 04:48:09 PM »
Darren,

In light of the upcoming election can you please refrain from posting.....................

I find it highly offensive that in election time you use big words, explain things understandably, and insult me with the use of logic and commonsense.
Right after I finish this thread I am going to ask Brett to ban you from posting for a month......... >:D >:D >:D

If you start to introduce rational, sane discussion into a topic, how on earth are the lefty opinionated extremists supposed to get what they want???

Bring on biased opinion, sledging, lies, statistics that prove nothing and a whole bunch of spin.................
Come on, get into the spirit of election time..............don't ruin it with good comments and supported sense.

(A bloody long winded attempt to say - Well said. And if you ever do go into politics - I'd vote for you)

Cheers, and I'd love to buy you a beer,

Brian
Back to a swag!
BitsiShity Tryton
Spending most of my time at the farm in Dalton!

Offline darren

  • Hard Top Camper User
  • ******
  • Posts: 3755
  • Thanked: 3 times
  • Gender: Male
  • "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius"
    • CampingAustralia.org
Re: Cattle in the high country - 'dog whistleing' only fools dogs...
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2011, 04:50:06 PM »
Right after I finish this thread I am going to ask Brett to ban you from posting for a month......... >:D >:D >:D



I think i'm well on my way to getting that done myself.. ???
Living the Dream.

Offline speewa158

  • Hard Top Camper User
  • ******
  • Posts: 12092
  • Thanked: 558 times
  • Gender: Male
Re: Cattle in the high country - 'dog whistleing' only fools dogs...
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2011, 05:14:19 PM »
How do you get noticed , put up lots & LOTS of long winded pages of mind numbing drivel as a broad spectrum scatter gun approuch to a topic . All I want to know is what do we know about Bovine Neamatoads  in Mac springs & there effect on humans . Thats where this started & as an unanswered question it has spun off almost out of control at a million miles a sec . Lets just back up to the start as if its going to stand up by its self thats where it should be .
The usual approach is to start then chuck all sorts of stuff in the air this will blot out the reality of whats really giong on . A thinly vailed political rant  . I dont want to see the forum go down this track . Politics & Religion are best cept to ones self  & should be .
I wont get sucked into a slanging match as such on these topics
You can go your own way . Treg Up & Make Dust