MySwag.org The Off-road Camper Trailer Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: prodigyrf on June 28, 2017, 01:31:32 AM
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Fairly predictable-
http://www.atimes.com/article/japanese-air-bag-maker-takata-files-bankruptcy-gets-china-backing/ (http://www.atimes.com/article/japanese-air-bag-maker-takata-files-bankruptcy-gets-china-backing/)
So what's next for the nanny state tasked with job of protecting us all from everything that goes bump in the night? All our Gummints are broke so they can't pick up the tab with this lot so let me see... hmmm...they have to be seen to be concerned for our welfare and protecting we poor innocent victims... of course that's it! We recommend owners of vehicles with suspect airbags have them checked and if necessary replaced ASAP but to protect unsuspecting buyers of these vehicles they will have to be certified as OK before change of ownership. Yeah that should do it nicely ;D
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And once again, who pays for this?
I'll lay odds I know the answer before I finish typing this.
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Well with 16 deaths world wide so far perhaps it would have been more economic for Takata to pay out negotiated compo in each case but I guess that might have a sting in the tail for them anyway. With many cars having half a dozen airbags it was always a hopeless task but I guess some managed to get the lucky door prize before it closed.
Or was it only the steering wheel ones? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_hkGN8TiJY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_hkGN8TiJY)
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Or was it only the steering wheel ones?
On the Forester, it's the front passenger bag that has to be replaced, but my BiL's Pajero was the steering wheel
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So are they saying KSS will be taking over Takata's recall liabilities?
https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/takata-files-for-bankruptcy-following-airbag-scandal-56857 (https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/takata-files-for-bankruptcy-following-airbag-scandal-56857)
Hard to imagine that would be the case but perhaps the purchase price has that factored in? Not exactly clear from that report.
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Now coming out that the various car manufacturers knew all about the problems & went ahead with the Takata bags regardless >:(
http://jalopnik.com/of-course-car-companies-knew-the-takata-airbags-were-da-1792796360 (http://jalopnik.com/of-course-car-companies-knew-the-takata-airbags-were-da-1792796360)
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Ah yes good old ANFO- http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/why-fertilizer-can-be-an-explosive-mixture-1.1307757 (http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/why-fertilizer-can-be-an-explosive-mixture-1.1307757)
I've seen a few tonnes of it primed with gelignite and cordtex lift a bloody great granite hill at Gove up into the air and turn it into gravel.
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Just had the bag in the Paj replaced all Good :cheers:
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Was supposed to have my NW Pajero done Monday. Got call from Irelands, Cairns....sorry , bag is not here. Tentatively booked in for the 28th. We will see.
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Misses car is booked in for the 19th, guess we'll see if yhat eventuates or not
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Got the approval from Subaru for ours so rang the local dealers.
They'll "order the parts in" (2-3 weeks) then ring us to book a time (~4 weeks :'().
Asked what effect this is going to have & she said that at this stage, everything is fine. Mind you, that was the Service receptionist, so don't know if that's an official answer ???
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BiL had the driver's bag on his Pajero done earlier in the year, after getting stuffed around by the dealer :'(
He got the original letter saying there's a problem so please contact your dealer for replacement. Did that & made an appt to take the car in. 3 hour job, went in to pick the car up & they said "So when would you like to bring the car in to be fixed" Didn't you just do that? "No, we checked & confirmed that that bag is one of the ones that need replacing, so we can now get the spare in & change it" ::)
Not happy but booked it in again for another 3 hour job to actually replace the bag.
Got another letter from Mitsubishi yesterday to advise the his front passenger's bag has now also been identified as faulty & will have to be replaced, so please contact your dealer... :-[
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Misses had the one in her Mitsubishi replaced yesterday...she was given a brand new (1000 klms on the clock) loan car for the day aswell.
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Our 2015 Pajero goes in tomorrow for the drivers airbag.
Wjll check if the passenger one is affected by recall.
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The Australian today reports the first death in Australia due to a faulty recalled airbag-
'The first Australian death linked to faulty Takata airbags has been recorded in Sydney after a 58-year-old man was killed in a collision in Cabramatta. The man died on July 13 when his Honda CRV slammed into another vehicle at an intersection in Sydney’s southwest.
NSW Police on Friday said a faulty airbag was likely to blame with the driver “struck in the neck by a small fragment”.'.........
Only one injury reported before that-
'...in late April a 21-year-old Northern Territory woman suffered serious injuries when one of the faulty airbags didn’t deploy properly during a crash in Darwin.
She was struck in the head by a small metal fragment, NT Police said at the time.'
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Just received the recall for the passenger side bag/s . Must keep the paperwork for the next buyer :cheers:
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Hmmm... only 1/3 through 2.1 million cars-
http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/takata-airbag-recall-process-leaves-drivers-with-ticking-time-bombs-choice-says/ar-AAoFl9K (http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/takata-airbag-recall-process-leaves-drivers-with-ticking-time-bombs-choice-says/ar-AAoFl9K)
At my age I can be philosophical but I don't fancy that with the DIL and 3+ month old bub in a 2008 X-Trail so might write to Nissan and suggest owners like her get priority.
Interesting the first 2 are Darwin and Sydney so perhaps Adelaide's drier climate means less risk re humidity and moisture but if the industry can't get enough airbags wouldn't it be advisable to have them removed in cases like the DIL? There is a tradeoff here so make up your mind Gummint but one thing's for sure, fining Takata US $1billion is sure gunna help NOT you drongos.
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It's not Takata's problem in the 1st instance but rather the problem of the car maker. The car maker is the one responsible for the car and the air bag.
It is the car makers problem to source the airbag from the manufacturer or an alternative supplier and the manufacturers responsibility to recover costs from Takata.
What happens if they no longer can get the part then becomes problematic and where the ACCC and govt get involved.
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So on the news today it appears some car makers are replacing the air bags with the one from the same manufacturer????
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So on the news today it appears some car makers are replacing the air bags with the one from the same manufacturer with the same fault!!!????
Fixed it for ya.
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Have seen a comment that at least one manufacturer has said that cars will have to be recalled again in another 5 years time to replace the airbags again :'( >:(
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Its the whole Ford Pinto saga again, its cheaper to have people die than fix the problem.
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What happens if they no longer can get the part then becomes problematic and where the ACCC and govt get involved.
Last I heard the Gummint and the ACCC don't make airbags but I suppose they could commission a feasibility study to look into setting up a new Department to make them. After the environmental impact study of course.
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MMM were just saying on the news theres a class action... put ya name down.
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An interesting appraisal of the situation. Seems that Takata drove suppliers of "safe" airbags out of business. The Auto Industry is now reaping what it created in driving prices down.
From:
http://tasmaniantimes.com/index.php?/weblog/article/when-is-an-airbag-not-an-airbag-...-/ (http://tasmaniantimes.com/index.php?/weblog/article/when-is-an-airbag-not-an-airbag-...-/)
First published June 27
When a driver or passenger gets into a motor vehicle fitted with a defective Takata airbag he or she faces a serious risk of being horrifically injured - even death - if an airbag deploys.
It does not take a crash to deploy one of these faulty airbags; they have been known to spontaneously self deploy.
In the blink of an eye, that same eye may be pulp, with a metal shard penetrating to the brain, leaving the victim fighting for life, if they are not already dead.
The eye and throat are the most vulnerable and deadly areas of human anatomy from a high speed spray of metal shrapnel emitted by a defective airbag. It is the known cause of deaths and serious injury overseas, the latter effect recently sadly confirmed by NT police in Australia.
Airbags are normally considered life saving angels but these defective airbags become devils of life-changing human carnage with no discrimination.
They multiply your chance of serious trauma in any form of impact incident and even when driving normally … or stationary. That chance increases the older an airbag becomes.
These defective airbags have two known problems: the explosive propellant becomes unstable and the pressed steel containment cup fragments.
I trained with explosives; holding a WA licence some decades ago. Training included the use of ammonium nitrate as an explosive. This is the explosive used in the airbags.
There is a golden rule when dealing with explosives and it forms a default mandatory code. It is deadly if not followed. The golden rule is: If it is not known to be safe then it is not safe.
Explosive instability of Takata airbags is caused by what is known as chemical phase change in the ammonium nitrate propellant. This is caused by humidity, heat and age. It is one the most unpredictable explosives for long-term stability.
Its greatest asset is that it is cheap’ about ten times less than other suitable propellants which are in more limited supply. Ammonium nitrate is the most widely used explosive material particularly in mining as a compound called ANFO.
Takata went into airbag manufacture as a late entrant in 1998 and in 2001 announced a change from tried and tested “propellants” as the industry terms these explosives and started to use ammonium nitrate as the “propellant”. They were advised by established airbag manufacturers not to use it.
There are many examples of uninitiated ammonium nitrate self explosions. The most infamous (used as an example in my explosives training) is the USA “Texas city 1947” explosion killing 512 people. Just enter Texas City 1947 in search on the Internet browser and the story is there in graphic detail.
Takata have had two serious incidents of ammonium nitrate instability, in waste storage and a transport incident with one fatality. All associated with their Mexican factory where these substandard airbags were manufactured.
Under explosive protocol when a phase change takes place within the propellant, airbags are no longer lifesaving devices but UED’s “unstable explosive devices”.
Under the golden rule of handling explosives when an explosive is even suspected of being unstable then immediate steps should taken for correct disposal, according to set down protocols.
These airbag inflators are sealed devices - therefore if deemed faulty cannot be repaired and must be disposed of by an approved protocol.
Unstable airbag inflator’s under explosive protocol fall into the same classes of device as the device used in the recent horrific Manchester bombing or the other devices that are classed with that infamous acronym IED.
An airbag has a little under the same explosive energy as a military hand grenade (about 160 grams against about 180 grams) and with a defective containment cup forms a crude fragmentation shell around the propellant. Ammonium nitrate was used as a compound with other explosives in hand grenades of UK origin until about 1997.
Takata used a process to make the ammonium nitrate suitable as a propellant for airbags that is designed to ensure a controlled VOD (velocity of detonation). When chemical phase change takes place this designed VOD can be lost and can VOD increase in speed. Also ammonium nitrate is highly hygroscopic and any moisture absorbed on detonation becomes super heated steam which further destroys the original designed VOD characteristics.
This extra force is then capable of tearing apart the containment cup. The purposes of the cup is to safely direct the gases from the explosion to inflate the bag in about one twentieth of a second.
The manufacture of the containment cup evidently had a very long history of QC problems and many cups are suspected of being substandard in mechanical integrity. Hence, it seems that some can fail whether the propellant is safe or unstable. Further, there is now doubt, from some sources, that the original cup design had sufficient mechanical integrity for purpose.
There are tens of millions of these potentially deadly devices in dash boards and steering wheels of vehicles across the world. Now side airbags are being investigated by authorities in the USA.
Investigations seem to have revealed that Takata also had a very poor quality production management system that is making it difficult to identify suspect batches of airbags after production.
Australia motor vehicles are simply part of that explosive physical motoring world.
It is now realised in the USA, years of past road trauma coronal findings may be incorrect in the light of more recent information and are now being revised, where possible, for any evidence of airbag injury.
Australia’s political leaders have seemed to ignore this information when dealing with the Takata are bag crisis.
I believe both Federal and State laws and standard protocols governing explosive safety and classification have been (perhaps illegally) ignored by our most senior politicians who must have had to sanction Australia’s policy in dealing with this extremely dangerous crisis.
Why?
I can only conclude protection of the Motor Companies finances is more important than protection of the people of Australia?
Whilst we have a recall affecting some now 650,000+ vehicles, it is a voluntary recall run by the motor industries with some assistance of the ACCC acting more in a overseer role.
It is estimated that around 6000+ airbags are faulty in Australia based on Takata statistics from testing recalled airbags.
Safety recalls are normally run by the Vehicle Safety Recalls section of the Department of Infrastructure and Regional development on behalf of the ACCC on a mandatory basis.
The recall letters by the manufacturers seem to be very innocuous especially the first ones around Sept/Oct 2015. They leave it up to you whether to use the vehicle or not. In my letter there was the statement “These metal fragments may injure the vehicle occupants”. It is only in second batch of recalls that ACCC web site has a statement which acknowledges that these devices can cause injury and death.
By checking the ACCC listings one friend had found that her cars airbag was recalled in the latest batch. After checking with the dealer it can only be concluded that the notification letter had been miss directed. So it pays to check if you have not recieved a letter.
Why the delay with an official government statement? These devices have had serious questions on their safety going back at least 2004 and further.
Well, if you closely examine Australia’s powerful consumer act which the ACCC enforces. By altering the standard protocol for safety recalls it would seem to give the Motor Companies greater protection from the consumer act.
Whilst a new airbag is only tens of dollars plus fitting, which on some cars can be a lengthy process which is very costly when multiplied by the tens of millions world wide.
It is the long delay caused by a shortage of replacement bags that is the financial nightmare for the Motor Companies under Australian consumer law.
Under the consumer act if a product cannot be fixed within a reasonable period of time then a consumer is entitled and enforceable by a court to considerable compensation including under some circumstances a new vehicle or refund including some expenses incurred.
However, for those people who derive income from their vehicle it is also may be possible to claim loss of income.
If a standard mandatory recall was in force then there would be a statement “why” in the mandatory notice. For people affected it would not be unreasonable if they ceased using their vehicle or drove an affected company vehicle on safety grounds. Loss of income could be claimed on a very large scale involving large amounts of money.
A government mandatory safety recall notice would effectively give a rubber stamp for the safety issue if such a claim had to be made in court.
By allowing the recall to be voluntary and keeping very low key agenda by the Motor Companies, any claims under the consumer act to a court the individual plaintiff must prove their airbags are faulty.
A case of divide and rule and it is not a technically easy to prove your airbags are faulty.
Germany has trained and licensed special mechanics to deal with this explosive airbag danger.
As the standard protocol for safety recalls lies with Recall Unit of the Department of Infrastructure. Ministerial approval must be used to exempt the airbags from normal safety recall protocol. This would indicate that the declaration for a voluntary recall was made with full political knowledge.
We have changed governments and PMs so often lately it is hard to remember who, what and when. However, the current Takata airbag policy must date toward the end of the Abbott government in 2015.
It hard to conceive that this policy was not intended as protection strategy for the Motor Companies. It meant no changes to legislation and therefore debate in parliament and possible defeat by the political process.
Effectively the strategy deprived Australians of a more straightforward way to enforce their rights under consumer act.
It also attracted minimum attention.
It is the mushroom condition without even being fed the “fertiliser”.
It does however seem to transgress State Explosive Law by allowing vehicles with known suspect explosive airbags to be used.
In writing this article I have sought the reactions to airbag saga with a number of friends and was staggered by the indifference, ignorance and even hostility to the fact that these airbags can be deadly. I also include myself in the indifference category.
Perhaps because of other diversionary interests, I never went further than read the very innocuous recall notice from my Motor Company telling there would be at least a year’s wait before an airbag would be available. Occasionally I would call my local dealer to check when if a new airbag had arrived.
I have also to admit that a close friend made some stark comments about this bomb in the dash board of my car on many occasions.
It all points to the government and motor industry gambling on an indifferent motoring population and perhaps an “irrational exuberance” of affection by Australian’s for their motor vehicles.
My own vehicle Takata airbag recall was in the first major Australian batch announced by the ACCC in Sept 2015. My replacement airbag was fitted in March 2017. I made the wait with a complacent attitude, I cover so few kilometres a year (I must stress, low annual kilometres is statistically no protection against an incident). I should have known better.
My first call to my senses and then ignored was an article in the November 2016 Silicon Chip magazine with a feature article on airbag technology, past present and future. To my surprise I found out they used explosives to inflate the bag. Technology had move on in the decades since I last read about airbag technology!
I simply did not bother to research further, seems I was in the majority of Australians.
All this changed with the NT incident, around April 29 this yearm where a low impact collision caused critical head injury by shrapnel penetrating the skull into the brain. Confirmed officially by the NT police as directly caused by a defective airbag deploying.
This event was concurrent with the latest posting of affected vehicles on the ACCC website and a number of close friends receiving a recall notices, some for very late model vehicles.
These two events resulted in my research into the Takata airbag saga.
Also vehicles listed on the latest ACCC website listing are vehicles manufactured before my vehicle which was in the Sept 2015 recall batch.
The NT incident has formally changed the whole legal game in Australia concerning airbags. The NT police have confirmed a serious injury in Australia by substandard airbag.
A check was made with our vehicle insurance system in Tasmania.
In Tasmania as part of vehicle registration the state governments MAIB provides “no fault” injury insurance. However vehicle owners must source their own third party civil insurance. This is normally included in comprehensive policies and balance of third party policies available from the commercial insurance market.
There is usually one voiding clause by the insurance company “the vehicle must be in a roadworthy and safe condition” or words to that effect.
From my investigations, which cannot taken as conclusive, it seems that knowingly carrying a possible unstable fragmentation bomb in the vehicle is likely to contravene third party insurance.
It would seem thousands of people are possibly driving around with no third party insurance if a known faulty airbag related incident occurs.
I checked by phone with my insurance company Y - a subsidiary of insurance company X - and basically got nowhere and then checked with Z insurance company and got the same complete runaround and whose phone representative kept on circling back to MAIB for third party insurance which is only for injury. People were talking Double Dutch to answering the simple question “does notification of faulty airbags by the Motor Industry violate the third party policy if the vehicle is driven”.
I then sent an email to X insurance company and they referred me back to Y insurance company. I then sent a return email asking X insurance, what is there policy? With a longer email to Y insurance company, sent shortly after. This was Friday 19 May. To date I have not received back from Y insurance company but received an Email from X insurance company which simply dumps the whole situation onto ACCC saying “they are running the airbag recall situation ask the ACCC”.
(I would add that this is not a vendetta against a single insurance company or insurance companies per say. Who I think have every right to question the safety of vehicles which have been identified as possibly carrying these deadly devices).
There is as far as I know, on this matter, any mention of balance of Third Party liability by ACCC or by Insurance entities in public media.
In fact if you contact the ACCC they make no comment except to refer you to the relevant Motor Company and the ACCC as of writing have not replied to my email concerning their policy on insurance.
The Takata airbag catastrophe world wide is probably the greatest mass manufacturing failure of all time. From my findings the root cause is unfettered competition by arrogant giant multinational Corporations trying to drive down costs to maximise market share or penetration.
This with apparent scant regard for the integrity of the product they are making.
Then what seems an unbelievable drop in OEM quality control by the major motor manufacturers.
Then the Australian government seems more interested in protecting the finances of vested entities rather than the lives of the Australian public.
At very the minimum I think the Australian public should have full formal knowledge of the dangers presented by possible substandard Takata airbags. Then make their own informed choice as to drive a vehicle with possible faulty airbags.
I believe the ACCC should be directed to make the recall mandatory and restore the full rights of the consumer act to affected parties.
Insurance companies should state their position on this diabolical situation.
Personally I think the affected vehicles should withdrawn from service until the explosive hazard is made safe.
This article is intended to communicate and to highlight the author’s perceived Australian situation surrounding the Takata airbag saga.
To get a better understanding of the immensity of the situation globally a good start would be with this Bloomberg story:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2016-06-02/sixty-million-car-bombs-inside-takata-s-air-bag-crisis (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2016-06-02/sixty-million-car-bombs-inside-takata-s-air-bag-crisis)
There are now airbags now being listed for recalls on 2017 model vehicles and recalls on earlier recalls, it is a nightmare.
*Kelvin Jones did his technical training in UK by a major electrical engineering manufacturing company in Power Engineering with Switch and Protection specialisation moving onto defence electronics commissioning RADAR and development of underwater weapons. TV Transmission. Field work and commissioning work on industrial electronics and transmission line carrier protection. Research in cellular and fibre optics communications. Field work on scientific, bio, and medical instrumentation with extensive work on Medical Imaging particularly CT scanners and Nuclear imaging.
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Last I heard the Gummint and the ACCC don't make airbags but I suppose they could commission a feasibility study to look into setting up a new Department to make them. After the environmental impact study of course.
I don't understand were you think I said the ACCC or your fictitious Gummint would make and provide airbags.
It is the Govt charter to protect consumers and so far they have been effective in that by forcing the recall.
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They can recall all they like rags but with the world's largest supplier of airbags out of action and millions of cars waiting for replacements what would you suggest our Gummint do to protect us all? Perhaps they could fine Takata another US $1billion or the car companies? Would that help matters?
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They can recall all they like rags but with the world's largest supplier of airbags out of action and millions of cars waiting for replacements what would you suggest our Gummint do to protect us all? Perhaps they could fine Takata another US $1billion or the car companies? Would that help matters?
The airbag a bit like brake parts they are not unquie to one air bag maker. As I point out the responsibility lies with the manufacturer of the car.The airbag is supplied by a third party supplier. It is obvious that the airbags are a bit of a generic part between manufacturers and so potentially some company will see a business opportunity and step up and make a replacement item. I am aware of the ACCC powers and have had first hand involvement with product recalls.
I am aware of your opinion on matters associated with govt as you have made that clear in many posts on this forum, and your views on 'nanny state' issues.
Many of your views I do not agree with, but hey that is what a forum is about.
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I am aware of the ACCC powers and have had first hand involvement with product recalls.
Fine but none of you in Govt have red undies and capes and as the problem is global and beyond the powers of any one Govt to demand an instant solution for their citizens, we have a problem on our hands that needs sensible risk management.
Among my family's cars I note the son's MN Triton is on the recall list but being only 2.5yr old and with Adelaide's drier climate I'm happy for him to wait with what I suspect could be a year or two before it might be replaced. Not so his wife with a 2008 X-Trail carting their new bub around so I propose to speak to her about removing the steering wheel airbag and storing it until such time as it can be replaced. No-one has any idea when it will be replaced given the huge backlog globally and for me it's a no-brainer that she can't continue to drive around in a car with a protective airbag that can kill or seriously maim her. Much better to take her chances with the benefit of 2008 ANCAP crash ratings, collapsible steering wheel and a seat belt that my generation went without.
If you have any better risk management solution than that rags then I'm all ears but I put it to you that's the position our Govt is going to have to take very quickly before someone else is killed or maimed.
Edit: Actually I'll just be removing the air bag inflator- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_hkGN8TiJY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_hkGN8TiJY)
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There is another alternative if removing the actuator leaves the airbag warning light on and that's to deal with the front impact triggering sensors- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWSlwhYyOhI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWSlwhYyOhI)
It would be a simple matter to measure the trigger check resistance and place the same resistor value across the unplugged wires to them so they can never trigger the airbag system. Might look at that.
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You sir are a dangerous individual
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Last I heard the Gummint and the ACCC don't make airbags
if they did it would be just as much of a ****up as was/is/will always be
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You sir are a dangerous individual
That was pretty easy to work out. :cup:
I had a ripper reply and all I had to do was hit send. I waited 10 minutes and chose not to post it.
Your reply Gordo, is much nicer.
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I usually dont read his posts. I'm sick of hearing about " the lads triton ". But that last post is downright dangerous
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I don't think I'd like an airbag on a bike...
http://www.mcnews.com.au/honda-goldwing-caught-up-in-takata-airbag-recall/ (http://www.mcnews.com.au/honda-goldwing-caught-up-in-takata-airbag-recall/)
Own a 2008-2012 Goldwing or know someone that does?
Get them to visit a Honda dealer for Takata Airbag recall campaign
Honda Australia Motorcycle and Power Equipment (Honda) received official notification of an airbag recall for all 2008, 2009, 2010 and subsequently 2012 Honda Goldwing GL1800 models, in the wake of the global Takata inflator issue.
Customers who purchased these models were immediately contacted with information on replacement measures.
Honda can confirm all replacement parts are in stock and of the 522 Goldwing units that have been affected in Australia, 163 of these have been successfully repaired and fitted with new inflators.
(http://www.mcnews.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Goldwing_z_airbag_inflated_800p.jpg)
that to me looks ****in more dangerous!
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But that last post is downright dangerous
So you'd rather your lot drive around with a safety device that's known to kill or maim the driver in the event of an accident? 2009 Honda CRV airbag kills its driver and I'm not to worry about the DIL driving in a 2008 X-Trail with a recall bag? You have a peculiar sense of risk management in my book.
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Airbags were once considered to only have a service life of around 10 years - I know that when I was looking at buying a Volvo V70 back in 2006/7 I was looking carefully for one that was not over 10 years old. The advice did change during that time to the life span being greater than that however, so wasn't the issue that it was going to be.
Perhaps this is the cause for a poor design - or they just forgot that the Irish liked the same chemicals when loaded in the back of a truck for a bit of destruction.
To ProdigyRF: Just tell your DiL to drive carefully; the chance of it repeating the event that killed the person is reduced if she doesn't crash. It's really quite simple... I know it sounds flippant, but I drive a 1992 4x4 with no airbags, ABS or traction control (other than my right foot) and I drive it differently to how I know I can drive something with ABS etc. Likewise, when I'm on the bikes (either motorised or human powered) I ride differently and more aware of the other drivers. It's a bit like the old "if there was a spike in the middle of the steering wheel people would drive differently"
Whilst you recognise that the car has an EuroNCAP rating of 4 stars (https://www.euroncap.com/en/ratings-rewards/latest-safety-ratings/en/results/nissan/x-trail/15734), this was based on there being the supplementary restraint system of an airbag; the performance without an airbag is quite different...
But if you're really that worried about it, just sell the thing and get something that isn't affected by the recall...
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So you'd rather your lot drive around with a safety device that's known to kill or maim the driver in the event of an accident? 2009 Honda CRV airbag kills its driver and I'm not to worry about the DIL driving in a 2008 X-Trail with a recall bag? You have a peculiar sense of risk management in my book.
Maybe we should remove seat belts too just in case we crash into a river.
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To ProdigyRF: Just tell your DiL to drive carefully; the chance of it repeating the event that killed the person is reduced if she doesn't crash. It's really quite simple... I know it sounds flippant, but I drive a 1992 4x4 with no airbags, ABS or traction control (other than my right foot) and I drive it differently to how I know I can drive something with ABS etc.
I drove cars when there were no seat belts and the lad was in the bassinet behind the back seat of the station wagon plus I rode motorsickles with him as pillion so I'm well aware of the risks on the roads. I have no objection to the introduction of more safety and protection for car occupants as economic technological innovation permits and airbags were an integral part of that.
Just that when I become aware members of my family are driving around with a potential IED in front of them I draw the line at that being sensible safety and they can go back to relying on the rest, which is a damn sight better than what I grew up with. They still have to drive sensibly and be aware a front airbag always had its limitations and wouldn't save you in a head on in the country. Just that if it can kill or maim in an urban crunch it's outta there until such time as an airbag that can do its job properly is available. Must confess I'm a bit gobsmacked some think an airbag that is known to kill or maim rates as a positive safety device and is sacrosanct but hey it's a free country.
PS: I think counterproductive was the word I was looking for :cheers:
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Another part of the airbag story, it's not a bad idea to get the part fitted when offered.
http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/manufacturing/honda-australia-reveals-airbag-victim-ignored-five-recall-notices/news-story/526a32ad782bcef7c4380f4f0e99970c (http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/manufacturing/honda-australia-reveals-airbag-victim-ignored-five-recall-notices/news-story/526a32ad782bcef7c4380f4f0e99970c)
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Another part of the airbag story, it's not a bad idea to get the part fitted when offered.
http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/manufacturing/honda-australia-reveals-airbag-victim-ignored-five-recall-notices/news-story/526a32ad782bcef7c4380f4f0e99970c (http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/manufacturing/honda-australia-reveals-airbag-victim-ignored-five-recall-notices/news-story/526a32ad782bcef7c4380f4f0e99970c)
I've had 3 recall notices for the Pajero.
Each time I rang to book the car in, I was told they didn't have the parts......
Finally got a letter on Monday telling me parts are in........earliest I could get in was early September. Go figure........
I'm not saying this was the case with the unfortunate victim above, and i sincerely hope manufacturers aren't using this to dodge their responsibilities and liabilities.
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, and i sincerely hope manufacturers aren't using this to dodge their responsibilities and liabilities.
**** that would never happen!!
but paying jobs will ALWAYS get in first.
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Counterproductive is a bit of an understatement-
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-24/takata-airbags-is-your-car-on-the-list/8722914 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-24/takata-airbags-is-your-car-on-the-list/8722914)
So in Oz they've taken a couple of years to fix 850,000 cars out of 2.3million and now Takata have gone pffft, so how long for the rest of them you reckon?
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If you are so concerned about the time frame and safety concerns, why not just source a different supplier and pay to have the airbags done yourself.
As bird said, paying jobs will always come first.
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Got our letter a few weeks ago for the 2012 Pajero and the missus with a great sense of urgency ??? got around to booking it in last week with the local Mitsi dealer. Booked in for this Friday. Doesn't sound like a big backlog or at least in my part of the world.
Maybe shop around a few dealers and see
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There is as upside to all this , the chromed mesh crates that the replacement parts come in are very handy for storage of bits&bobs in the shed /work truck .
l found them at the tip with a bunch of steering wheel centers . l will be back for more so keep them coming :cheers:
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From:
http://tasmaniantimes.com/index.php?/weblog/article/when-is-an-airbag-not-an-airbag-...-/ (http://tasmaniantimes.com/index.php?/weblog/article/when-is-an-airbag-not-an-airbag-...-/)
An airbag has a little under the same explosive energy as a military hand grenade (about 160 grams against about 180 grams) and with a defective containment cup forms a crude fragmentation shell around the propellant. Ammonium nitrate was used as a compound with other explosives in hand grenades of UK origin until about 1997.
Interestingly enough, I haven't noticed many trucks driving out of dealers with Explosives DG (1.3?) signs on them ???
There is as upside to all this , the chromed mesh crates that the replacement parts come in are very handy for storage of bits&bobs in the shed /work truck .
l found them at the tip with a bunch of steering wheel centers
Is that because they're all just being dumped at the local tip ??? >:D
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(http://www.mcnews.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Goldwing_z_airbag_inflated_800p.jpg)
that to me looks ****in more dangerous!
anyone else think that looks like a blow up doll bending over?
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If you are so concerned about the time frame and safety concerns, why not just source a different supplier and pay to have the airbags done yourself.
As bird said, paying jobs will always come first.
Got no problem with that providing they're available and on that point it probably makes sense that owners contribute on a pro rata basis to having what may now be perceived as a wear item replaced, if it speeds up replacement. At new car sales rates we're now turning over our domestic car fleet in around 11 years and that's been coming down so let's say 12 years to be generous. DIL's car is 8 yr old (2008 sold in 2009) so she pays 2/3 of the cost and all airbag inflators have to be replaced to be registered after 12 years in the interests of public safety. Just like fire extinguishers, LPG bottles and the like. Whaddya reckon about that? ;D
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Whaddya reckon about that? ;D
You're a fruit loop.
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If you are so concerned about the time frame and safety concerns, why not just source a different supplier and pay to have the airbags done yourself.
As bird said, paying jobs will always come first.
So your solution to a shortage of safe airbag inflators for the many (only 85000 cars dealt with over 2 years out of 2.1-2.3 million requiring them) is if I can pay I get them right away and you wait longer in the queue?
Just throwing up an option that might have seen quicker resourcing of replacements, although I suspect when push comes to shove owners are not that concerned about safety that they want to dip their hands in their own pocket. However I will predict this intense scrutiny of airbag safety due to Takata's failings will ultimately result in a use by date being implemented for air bag inflators so watch for it.
PS: It's already been established I'm a dangerous fruit loop for wanting to remove a safety item that can blow my DIL's head off in an urban crunch so do keep up :-*
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http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-24/takata-airbag-recall-process-choice-report/8736198 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-24/takata-airbag-recall-process-choice-report/8736198)
This tells us that 600,000 units approx have been replaced (1/3 of the effected fleet)
The data also tells us that 1 in 350 units appears to be faulty (approx 6000 in total) and the cap may disintegrate upon triggering causing injury.
So far 18 deaths worldwide and over 100 injuries. 1 in Oz, along with at least one serious injury.
Given those odds if I had an effected vehicle, using a simple risk analysis I would rather take the risk with a potentially faulty airbag inflator than no airbag at all.
Takata, although bankrupt, are still in business, supplying replacement inflators.
http://www.businessinsider.com/takata-files-for-bankruptcy-says-will-be-bought-for-16-billion-2017-6?IR=T (http://www.businessinsider.com/takata-files-for-bankruptcy-says-will-be-bought-for-16-billion-2017-6?IR=T)
Manufacturers are still obliged to replace inflators.
Yep, its taking too long, but its still being done.
Its Just one of the many tradeoffs incurred to satisfy diverse tastes, priorities and wallets!
:cheers:
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So your solution to a shortage of safe airbag inflators for the many (only 85000 cars dealt with over 2 years out of 2.1-2.3 million requiring them) is if I can pay I get them right away and you wait longer in the queue?
Just throwing up an option that might have seen quicker resourcing of replacements, although I suspect when push comes to shove owners are not that concerned about safety that they want to dip their hands in their own pocket. However I will predict this intense scrutiny of airbag safety due to Takata's failings will ultimately result in a use by date being implemented for air bag inflators so watch for it.
PS: It's already been established I'm a dangerous fruit loop for wanting to remove a safety item that can blow my DIL's head off in an urban crunch so do keep up :-*
Car # 1. 2004 Model....Has air bags, not on the recall list as it has different air bags.
Car # 2. 1988 Model....No air bags fitted, but does have lap/sash seatbelts.
Car # 3. 1964 Model....No air bags fitted, but does have lap belts only.
So I really don't give a rats bum. :-*
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anyone else think that looks like a blow up doll bending over?
Yep,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
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Probably like most I hadn’t really paid much mind to the Takata recall that really came to prominence in May 2015 looking back-
http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/manufacturing/worlds-biggest-recall-now-53-million-cars-with-takata-airbags-might-spray-shrapnel/news-story/776563a8510b55d42b04fa2b38b025dc (http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/manufacturing/worlds-biggest-recall-now-53-million-cars-with-takata-airbags-might-spray-shrapnel/news-story/776563a8510b55d42b04fa2b38b025dc)
and didn’t quite appreciate it was the ammonium nitrate being used by Takata that would make even their early replacements need replacing again at some stage-
http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/02/autos/takata-airbag-recall/index.html (http://money.cnn.com/2015/06/02/autos/takata-airbag-recall/index.html)
and they could even kill without being triggered in a collision-
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/23/business/takata-airbag-death-recall.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/23/business/takata-airbag-death-recall.html)
although I did note at the time that the number of cars being touted would inevitably see the bankruptcy of Takata and that’s proved to be the case. Given the scale of the problem the US fining of Takata was stupid and only helped hastened their demise, while authorities everywhere really had no answers even though it was obvious to most commentators Takata would go under and leave the problem on their plate to deal with. A stitch in time eh guys?
With that airbag death in Sydney (a 58 yr old ignoring 5 recall letters is self- inflicted) it was my BIL that sent me that airbag lab test video and the penny really dropped as to what this is all about. With such a huge backlog and no one in authority having the foresight to grapple with enormity of the problem early on, it’s every owner for themselves now that missed out on the recall. I know how to deal with that live inflator but don’t mess around with them if you don’t know what you’re doing or you might be ‘counterproductive’ so to speak.
I deal with problems as I find them and not how they should be or some idealised version but how they actually are and no point whinging for my mum that they’re not of my making. So that’s how I planned to deal with it but it was interesting how that shocked the pants of some of you so I took that onboard and thanks for that. Consequently I ran it past my son this arvo with the aid of that video and he quickly agreed the inflator should go in the interim so he’ll broach it quietly with his missus tonight and it’ll be interesting to see what a new mum’s view is.
Funnily enough the Challenger isn't on the recall list although MN and ML Tritons are and I would have thought it would be the same as the MN Triton.
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Ha! Seems we can all have a Bex and a good lie down. DIL new mum got fired up alright and onto Nissan first thing in the morning but it was a case of err no maam we did your car 2 years ago. Oops!
Must admit I couldn't understand why her X-Trail being an early lister in May 2015 was still waiting but it was one of the first cabs off the rank. After her Subaru wagon was written off by a rear end shunt in late Dec 2014 we'd scored her tidy low km X-Trail replacement on New Years Eve so when I heard about the airbag recall in May 2015 I advised her to get in touch with Nissan to let them know she was the current owner for the recall. She was on the ball alright and all done quickly but a wedding to organise and a new bub, etc meant she'd forgotten all about it until Nissan reminded her and sonny boy wasn't much help in that regard.(err.. I suppose he did have some input)
Kids! Where would our hair be without them? :cheers:
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Seems Honda are saying the Takata airbags are known to be safe for 6 years so presumably why the carmakers would concentrate on replacing earlier manufactured airbags-
http://www.caradvice.com.au/570441/honda-pleading-remaining-owners-get-your-takata-airbags-replaced/ (http://www.caradvice.com.au/570441/honda-pleading-remaining-owners-get-your-takata-airbags-replaced/)
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More information filtering out of Honda about their response to the airbag problem-
https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/honda-confirms-third-party-source-for-majority-of-takata-airbag-recall-fixes-57823 (https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/honda-confirms-third-party-source-for-majority-of-takata-airbag-recall-fixes-57823)
Since they suffered the earliest fatality by an owner and once they recognised the size and nature of the problem it made sense to replace older airbags immediately with like for like once they'd established Takata airbags were safe for 6 years in order to buy time for those Daicel replacements-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daicel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daicel)
After all removal of the offending items to await lifetime safe replacements would clearly upset some and on that point they appear to be turning to the regulators for guidance, reading between the lines. So 6 year old airbags are alright but don't push your luck with 8 year old ones like that 2009 model Honda owner did in Sydney.
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More recalls for Mazda owners, etc- https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/mazda-bmw-affected-again-by-takata-recalls-58036 (https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/mazda-bmw-affected-again-by-takata-recalls-58036)
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Had zero problems with getting my 2003 Patrol done. Rang the dealer on Thursday 2 weeks ago, booked it in and the job was done last Thursday (one week later). Not sure why people may have trouble getting it done.
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Got letter week ago last Thursday. rang next day, and done on Tuesday. Both front bags done in my 2007 BT50.
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The D22 (2011) goes in tomorrow, had to wait 2weeks. They said it takes that long to order one in.
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Just had the front passenger one on my Patrol done this morning. Received the letter last week, booked in, and it took about 45 minutes although I decided to take out the glovebox at home. I couldn't believe I was actually at a Nissan dealer. They even gave me a document that shows the replacement was done as proof if I wanted to sell it. The lead running to the module certainly stands out as it is bright yellow where the old one was black.
The dealer was saying they had a lot left to do so it sounded like they were not closing the recall programme down.
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They certainly have a few left to do by all accounts-
https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/accc-considers-compulsory-takata-airbag-recall-59082 (https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/accc-considers-compulsory-takata-airbag-recall-59082)
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l have had my 07NS Paj sorted , drivers & passenger side , including a fist full of paper work to say so . :cup: :cheers:
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Had the passenger bag done in the Forester about 6 weeks ago, just before selling it.
Got a letter from Subaru yesterday confirming that the Takata bag was replaced with a new built, but same model, Takata bag.
Goes on:
Research out of the US says that these bags have a life-span of 6 - 25 years! ::), depending on "time, temperature cycling & environmental moisture" ???, so Subaru has decided to replace the old bags now, while waiting for a new model bag, with safe propellant, to become available. This is expected in 2020 (& they even say March, which is a pretty exact estimate 2.5 years out!)
So it appears that this saga will ontinue on for quite some time to come!