Author Topic: Disgusting behaviour by campertrailer manufacturers  (Read 17968 times)

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Offline alnjan

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Re: Disgusting behaviour by campertrailer manufacturers
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2013, 10:52:28 PM »
Just wondering about the legalities of the letter and the threatened action.  While I can fully understand the action taken by Brett and if this is the tactics they wish to use, I do not blame MySwag for never mentioning this brand of camper trailer, whatsoever.  My understanding Brett has done nothing wrong, unless he is the one that made the post.  Will have to make some further legal inquiries to find out if anything has been done for the letters threats to be real or just worthless threats
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Re: Disgusting behaviour by campertrailer manufacturers
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2013, 10:56:53 PM »
Just wondering about the legalities of the letter and the threatened action.  While I can fully understand the action taken by Brett and if this is the tactics they wish to use, I do not blame MySwag for never mentioning this brand of camper trailer, whatsoever.  My understanding Brett has done nothing wrong, unless he is the one that made the post.  Will have to make some further legal inquiries to find out if anything has been done for the letters threats to be real or just worthless threats
Lets be honest, why risk it - and why not remove everything. Why give any PR - good or bad.

 Exploroz has done the same in the past with a diesel tuning place in the southern area of NSW


anyway the thread was back 2011 - 2012
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Offline CRW

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Disgusting behaviour by campertrailer manufacturers
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2013, 11:04:11 PM »
Just wondering about the legalities of the letter and the threatened action.  While I can fully understand the action taken by Brett and if this is the tactics they wish to use, I do not blame MySwag for never mentioning this brand of camper trailer, whatsoever.  My understanding Brett has done nothing wrong, unless he is the one that made the post.  Will have to make some further legal inquiries to find out if anything has been done for the letters threats to be real or just worthless threats

To be honest here, it's Brett on the line here, wether he wrote anything or not he is ultimately responsible for the content of the forum and it, if it went that far, will be him in court and no one else, which is one of the reasons why he and 4x4 earth and the PCoA forums are removing the threads about the particular manufacturer.

Best thing you can all do is abide by Brett's decision and not to continue to contribute to this thread.


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Offline cruisindub

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Re: Disgusting behaviour by campertrailer manufacturers
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2013, 11:05:39 PM »
and why not remove everything. Why give any PR - good or bad.


Exactly, stuff em.
Any new comers can just be directed to Bretts sticky post and make their own decisions......

I'm sure this will do more damage to their reputation and brand name, than one post with a few grumbles and gripes.
Why do people ask "What the hell were you thinking?"
Obviously I was thinking I was going to get away with it and not have to explain it....

Offline winniliss

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Re: Disgusting behaviour by campertrailer manufacturers
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2013, 11:10:24 PM »
The following is a link from the Defamation Act NSW 2005:

http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/maintop/view/inforce/act+77+2005+cd+0+N

The following has the definition of defamation and what one must prove etc as an example:

http://www.legal.unsw.edu.au/factsheets/defamation.html


The following headings are of note and should be read:

7   Distinction between slander and libel abolished
http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/maintop/view/inforce/act+77+2005+cd+0+N

11   Choice of law for defamation proceedings
http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/maintop/view/inforce/act+77+2005+cd+0+N

Division 2 Defences
http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/maintop/view/inforce/act+77+2005+cd+0+N
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 11:20:03 PM by winniliss »
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Offline Wunderlust

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Re: Disgusting behaviour by campertrailer manufacturers
« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2013, 11:16:02 PM »
Unfortunately in this day and age it's a common occurrence. In my previous life I owned a large forum with 60,000 members and getting a letter (or email) making all sorts of squeals and threats was a regular occurrence. Unfortunately many of the complaints made about certain companies were well founded and of genuine concern to the consumers who posted!

Cut a long story short, I adopted a no bull sh!t approach and most names were censored as part of my policy when such legal threats to the forum were made, needless to say that made the pursuant even worse sometimes BECAUSE their names were censored (good and the bad reviews and points). They wanted the bad points removed and the good points remaining! Go figure! On one occasion I then had further legal threats because their good points regarding their brands were censored! Go and figure. Sorry folks by that point it's too late.

Legitimate companies would generally talk first with out resort to this level of bullying and scare tactics and ultimately it does more harm than good.

Australian online defamation law is antiquated to say the least. You got to ask yourself - would you buy a product that didn't want to be discussed?....
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 11:20:34 PM by Wunderlust »
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Offline Tjupurula

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Re: Disgusting behaviour by campertrailer manufacturers
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2013, 11:24:19 PM »
I believe I now know which brand is being discussed.  If they are that bad, we don't want any coming this way, that may mean too much extra work in repairs and the like, and we are far too remote for that.
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Offline TOPNDR

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Re: Disgusting behaviour by campertrailer manufacturers
« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2013, 11:32:15 PM »
On another forum I frequent, similar things have happened where certain entities get upset.  On one particular forum, if one writes the name of any of a number of "banned" entities, a string of asterisks appears in place of the company name.

I for one won't be buying any *** (Voldemort's) products.
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Offline cruisindub

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Re: Disgusting behaviour by campertrailer manufacturers
« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2013, 11:33:59 PM »
  believe I now know which brand is being discussed.  If they are that bad, we don't want any coming this way,

On first reading that, I thought you were going to say they cant come because those names cant be said or discussed..!!!

I thought, wow, theyve really upset someone now?

Ha ha
Why do people ask "What the hell were you thinking?"
Obviously I was thinking I was going to get away with it and not have to explain it....

Offline alnjan

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Re: Disgusting behaviour by campertrailer manufacturers
« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2013, 11:46:20 PM »
The following is a link from the Defamation Act NSW 2005:

http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/maintop/view/inforce/act+77+2005+cd+0+N

The following has the definition of defamation and what one must prove etc as an example:

http://www.legal.unsw.edu.au/factsheets/defamation.html


The following headings are of note and should be read:

7   Distinction between slander and libel abolished
http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/maintop/view/inforce/act+77+2005+cd+0+N

11   Choice of law for defamation proceedings
http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/maintop/view/inforce/act+77+2005+cd+0+N

Division 2 Defences
http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/maintop/view/inforce/act+77+2005+cd+0+N



And if you look at the Case mentioned in the threatening letter, Supreme Court of Victoria Trkulja  v Google Inc and Anor,  it does not appear to apply to MySwag.  In saying that if this is the action the manufacture wishes to take then remove ALL reference to their brand altogether. 
Cheers

Al and/or Jan

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Re: Disgusting behaviour by campertrailer manufacturers
« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2013, 11:54:57 PM »
unfortunately, the problem is google and the internet exist. So any thing that is written can ultimately be found and trust me when I say google shows a heck of allot worse than anything that was ever mentioned in here.  I wonder if the product review sites got the same letters?
smoke and mirrors guys. smoke and mirrors.........


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Offline Tjupurula

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Re: Disgusting behaviour by campertrailer manufacturers
« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2013, 11:57:58 PM »
On first reading that, I thought you were going to say they cant come because those names cant be said or discussed..!!!

I thought, wow, theyve really upset someone now?

Ha ha

I consider MySWag as a second family, and if such a threat is going to be made against my second family, then I have the authority to say that something is not of good enough quality and we have no desire to be stuck with additional repairs.  I can play such games as well.
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Offline nick_4x4

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Re: Disgusting behaviour by campertrailer manufacturers
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2013, 11:59:04 PM »

And if you look at the Case mentioned in the threatening letter, Supreme Court of Victoria Trkulja  v Google Inc and Anor,  it does not appear to apply to MySwag.  In saying that if this is the action the manufacture wishes to take then remove ALL reference to their brand altogether.

Agree.

But also this is a public forum and therefor all posts on here are of each persons experience, if this one thing holds up it will be the end of posting about your favorite / not so favorite products on any forum.

Its true its on Brett's shoulders and he will have to fight it if he wishes to do so, but i also feel that he would have a good bit of defense due to the fact that the posts being made are the honest reports of customers or would be customers of these companies, if a person wishes to make a said post about a product then it should be allowed otherwise we might as-well shut down all posts about any products being good or bad because lets face it soon enough every company who has copped a bashing over a bad product will be lining up to get their lawyers involved.

I own a hosting company and understand the risks of keeping the posts and threads alive, ive also run large communities which are not for profit, at the end of the day its upto the person who has their name on the domain / server / site as owner to do what they will with the information.

If it was me i would make sure that all new users registering were shown that thread as a must read.

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Offline alnjan

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Re: Disgusting behaviour by campertrailer manufacturers
« Reply #38 on: August 08, 2013, 12:12:48 AM »
Exactly, if I buy a product and it does not meet the standard you are lead to believe it should be and I make comment on a public forum, I am not making a defamatory comment as it is a factual statement.  The next step would be to take the product back to the retailer.  If the retailer fixed the problem, I make that comment on the same public forum, again nothing defamatory.  If however the retailer refused to fix the problem and I posted that on the public forum, again it is a factual statement and not defamatory.   

If I bought a product that had nothing wrong with it and for whatever reason posted on a public forum the product was rubbish and the retailer and manufacturer refused to fix it, because that is NOT a factual statement or an UNthruth, yes I am being defamatory.

Now if I was to post a defamatory comment here at MySwag, how is Brett, as the owner, going to know if it is defamatory or not.  That is the problem Brett has, as does any other Forum owner. If the owner is served with a notice to have comments removed, well it is up to the individual forum owner what they do.  I would be looking at just removing all reference to that particular brand, good bad or indifferent.

http://www.reputationhawk.com/onlinedefamation.html

What Is Defamation?

The publication or broadcast of any libelous or slanderous statement about an individual or business that can be proven to be false and published with the intention of harming that entity's reputation is considered to be defamation. Online defamation is the publication of such statements made on any Internet based media including blogs, forums, websites, and even social networking websites. While many Internet users believe that they are free to say and do as they like while on the Internet, this is untrue and the same defamation laws and regulations stand for online defamation as they do in any form of media.

The Difficulties With Proving Defamatory Comments

Much of the difficulty that surrounds successfully winning an online defamation case is brought about because the plaintiff must first prove who the publisher or writer of the statement is and, secondly, that the statement is false and written with the intention of causing damage.

Tracing an individual that has posted a defamatory comment can prove very difficult. It is certainly possible to find out the details of a computer that was used to publish a statement or post content. However, if this is a public computer then it is almost impossible to narrow down the search in order to find the culprit. With Internet access being afforded to computers in Internet cafes, libraries, businesses, and other public areas, this makes it very difficult to find the source of the illegal content.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 12:15:36 AM by alnjan »
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Re: Re: Disgusting behaviour by campertrailer manufacturers
« Reply #39 on: August 08, 2013, 12:31:00 AM »
If I buy a product and it does not meet the standard you are lead to believe it should be and I make comment on a public forum, I am not making a defamatory comment as it is a factual statement.
How do people reading your 'factual' comment determine fact from fiction? There-in lies the problem.

Offline CBRK

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Re: Disgusting behaviour by campertrailer manufacturers
« Reply #40 on: August 08, 2013, 12:38:42 AM »
I think their laywers need to go back to law school and should be held to account for trying to intimidate a forum owner, the company in question im sure has more than 10 employees and therefore in nsw is not able to claim defamation (basically only a person can be defamed, a company is not a person in nsw - well if it has more than 10 employees it isnt a person). Its something that is in nsw legislation but not most other states.

Brett i suggest you consult a lawyer who specialises in defamation, they should be able to confirm the above, i also understand its easier to remove posts to remove the risk and back you up if thats the decision you make.

The company is gutless if it has to resort to this extreme, they should be able to handle debate about their product. I was thankful this site and others had info about them, it help me to look closer at ther quality, i chose another brand as a result.

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Just to be clear im not a lawyer and the above is not to be considered legal advice

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« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 12:46:43 AM by CBRK »
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Offline ScottH

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Re: Disgusting behaviour by campertrailer manufacturers
« Reply #41 on: August 08, 2013, 01:01:50 AM »
The problem in these situations is not whether the lawyers have any legitimate claim against the site administrators for the content posted, but what it would cost them to defend themselves against the charge.

An IT forum I moderate on had a similar issue several years ago, and chose to defend themselves. They ultimately won, but were only awarded partial legal costs, which also failed to address the loss of income the site owner suffered from having to take time off from his paid work, loss of advertising revenue, etc. It wound up costing the site owner in excess of $10,000, despite being found not liable.

It's bully-boy tactics, and a very clear indication, at least in my mind, that the company involved is trying to hide their dirty laundry. It comes as no real surprise when you see who they are in bed with - they are often the flagship camper choice for Tigerz11 & Roo Systems customers, based on Roothy's paid recommendation. Given how corrupt the whole EMG situation is, and the way they handled the Melbourne 4WD Show saga, is it any surprise they are resorting to this sort of behaviour?

Vote 1 for Roothy - Media censorship should be part of his campaign.

Offline alnjan

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Re: Re: Disgusting behaviour by campertrailer manufacturers
« Reply #42 on: August 08, 2013, 01:12:58 AM »
How do people reading your 'factual' comment determine fact from fiction? There-in lies the problem.

The other big problem is proving who wrote the subject comment in the first place.  It may be posted by Username %$&^*%*&^%% but prove that it was Billy BLOGGS that wrote.  MySwag is saved to my computer with the password, anyone could have accessed my computer, I didn't write it.   
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Offline 02-SR5

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Re: Disgusting behaviour by campertrailer manufacturers
« Reply #43 on: August 08, 2013, 01:22:47 AM »
As an ex owner of a camper from this company, I reckon delete every post and thread from this forum.

We all know it ends bad as soon as a XXX thread is started. I have never known a camper company to draw so much heat and debate.

Personally, if nobody ever spoke of this brand again on any forum, it will be a good thing.
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Offline cruisindub

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Re: Disgusting behaviour by campertrailer manufacturers
« Reply #44 on: August 08, 2013, 01:23:39 AM »
Not worth hassle.

Just delete all the Three Letter Word posts, good and bad, and be done with it.

Its a bad day for current #*# owners, but I'm sure the message will get through eventually.  Dont give them the satisfaction of thinking they've won, just let them slip into the oblivion.

Why do people ask "What the hell were you thinking?"
Obviously I was thinking I was going to get away with it and not have to explain it....

Offline Symon

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Re: Disgusting behaviour by campertrailer manufacturers
« Reply #45 on: August 08, 2013, 05:59:44 AM »
which is one of the reasons why he and 4x4 earth and the PCoA forums are removing the threads about the particular manufacturer.

It's a number of other forums as well, I won't name them but the tally is up to four so far.

An IT forum I moderate on had a similar issue several years ago, and chose to defend themselves. They ultimately won, but were only awarded partial legal costs, which also failed to address the loss of income the site owner suffered from having to take time off from his paid work, loss of advertising revenue, etc. It wound up costing the site owner in excess of $10,000, despite being found not liable.

I think I know which forum that was, and I totally agree.  It is a lot of heartache for not a lot of return.  The only people who benefit from defamation cases are lawyers.
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Offline Malcolm Tugless

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Re: Disgusting behaviour by campertrailer manufacturers
« Reply #46 on: August 08, 2013, 07:00:00 AM »
The mods could put the three initialed brand into the swear filter, this would alter its appearance if someone typed it into the text.

I do feel sorry for Myswag members who own the brand and would like to discuss it openly on the forum.

Bearing in mind that Voldemont hasn't ask not to be discussed, just to have a thread removed, as he considers it damaging to his reputation ... or offensive and distressing as he put it. He's obviously happy to see a robust and honest debate, so long as there is no negative feedback. Sorry did I just say honest and open ... let's just try open.

Unfortunately the internet has become a conduit for vexatious and often litigious comment. Rules have been put into play to protect people and organisations from these actions, unfortunately these same rules apply to comments which although being somewhat close to the truth, are deemed to be detrimental to the recipient.

Litigation is a strange beast, ungainly, impractical and lacking of common sense. That's what makes it so dangerous. The moderators are more than justified in wanting to keep well away from it ... regardless of right or wrong ... taking the moral high ground in a situation like this would be pure folly.


Offline DaveR

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Re: Disgusting behaviour by campertrailer manufacturers
« Reply #47 on: August 08, 2013, 07:10:28 AM »
Sadly I have not read any of the posts about "#", I feel like I missed out on the gossip.
Funny that another maker of CTs has coped a bit of flack here, and yet they are quick to come to their own defense on the forum.
Even though I have no dealings with these people, gives them credit in my mind for being willing to back their own service or product up publicly, perhaps as mentioned above, someone else could learn from them.
Just my 2 cents worth.
I think Brett has done the best thing, it is easier to walk away a lot of the time in matters such as this.
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Offline StrvnMrvn

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Disgusting behaviour by campertrailer manufacturers
« Reply #48 on: August 08, 2013, 07:16:38 AM »
Well I think it might be time for a change then!!

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Offline novaoz

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Re: Disgusting behaviour by campertrailer manufacturers
« Reply #49 on: August 08, 2013, 07:45:52 AM »
I am in the market now for my first CT and the above company was one of the first brands I came across and on the surface looked good, but a quick search on the internet (and I mean not here, but review sites) revealed heaps of horror stories with customer service and product complaints, this just reaffirms my decision not to deal with the company. 
In this day and age you cannot hide from the consumer anymore, I am in tourism and trip advisor etc have now almost taken over from AAA rating as a basis to judge a property, properties could fool AAA to some degree but not the consumer anymore.
Companies like the above need to adjust to the modern world and supply the best customer service and products or suffer the consequences.