Author Topic: Power and gas is to expensive.  (Read 203375 times)

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Offline Pete79

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Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #350 on: September 04, 2018, 07:32:40 AM »
1.7 million back into the community.......BUT......how much did the farm cost (community money ) and how long before the community breaks even ?
That’s a bit of a hard one to nail down.

Official numbers say it cost $35M to construct and has a forecast 30 year life span.
Each year will be different in terms of overall hours of sunlight, but with $1.7M in savings this year, it looks on track to at least break even over its life.


However, if you happen to be the type that reads Murdock owned newspapers they claim the actual cost was more like $75M, just a little bit more then the official figure.
But Murdock owned papers don’t have any sort of agenda when it comes to those evil renewables, they would never lie or make up figures to suit their agenda, that they don’t have....
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 08:28:31 AM by Pete79 »

Offline gronk

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #351 on: September 04, 2018, 08:45:28 AM »
That’s a bit of a hard one to nail down.

Official numbers say it cost $35M to construct and has a forecast 30 year life span.
Each year will be different in terms of overall hours of sunlight, but with $1.7M in savings this year, it looks on track to at least break even over its life.


However, if you happen to be the type that reads Murdock owned newspapers they claim the actual cost was more like $75M, just a little bit more then the official figure.
But Murdock owned papers don’t have any sort of agenda when it comes to those evil renewables, they would never lie or make up figures to suit their agenda, that they don’t have....

And that is dilema of renewables....and why power prices may have to increase.....someone has to pay for the installation of a new power source (and that goes for a coal one as well ) ..but for the equivalent power output, renewables are far more expensive than a coal power plant.
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Offline glenm64

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #352 on: September 04, 2018, 08:59:23 AM »
Unreliables are going to help fix the (unreliable) power system at Kalbari.
Wind and Solar with a battery bank will be the power source used to feed into the traditional generation system.
https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/renewable-energy-set-to-end-kalbarris-electricity-woes-ng-b88738652z
Call it what you want, but it is the way of the future. Technology will keep improving and eventually renewables will be the main stay.
Now excuse me as I go and hitch up my horse and buggy, cause them there fandangle automatic carriages are just too reckless.

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Offline Bigfish

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #353 on: September 04, 2018, 09:10:28 AM »
The only way for renewable power prices is down

Last year, Origin Energy stunned the market by signing a long-term deal to buy electricity from the Stockyard Hill windfarm being developed west of Ballarat in Victoria, reportedly at less than $55 a megawatt hour.

That set a new benchmark. AGL swiftly followed suit at its Coopers Gap windfarm project in south-east Queensland, which is set to be the largest wind farm in Australia.
 A wholesale price for wind energy has been established at between $50 and $60 a megawatt hour.

A series of similar deals followed, firmly establishing a wholesale price for wind energy at between $50 and $60 a megawatt hour.

Electricity from large-scale solar power plants is now similarly priced, after dramatic declines in the costs of production for solar modules.

"The numbers right now are between $50 and $60 a megawatt hour," says David Leitch of ITK Services, an independent energy analyst with decades of experience, who has previously worked for major investment banks.

How does the price of new coal power compare?

Given Friday's events, it's worth briefly recapping our national energy policy over the past 20 years.


The Australian Parliament has proven itself unable to reach consensus on climate change policy, even when the parties are close enough to touch. It's a familiar tale, writes Annabel Crabb.

At market rates of financing, the lowest cost of electricity from a new coal generator using so-called "high-efficiency, low-emissions" technology would be more than $150 a megawatt hour, according to Bloomberg New Energy Finance.

In the absence of big government subsidies and underwriting, analysts say a new coal generator would need a price of more than $80 a megawatt hour for its electricity just to cover the costs of its operation.

Meanwhile, the only way for renewable power prices appears to be down.

The cost of solar power modules has fallen by up to 30 per cent this year alone, according to recent analysis by Bank of America/Merrill Lynch, with huge supply from China driving prices down.

With new solar panels now available that you can simply print and stick on your roof, the likelihood is that prices will plummet in the future.
The reality is new coal power is not the answer

According to Goldman Sachs, wind and solar power prices will fall by between one-third and 43 per cent by 2025. Some analysts consider this a estimate conservative.

There is a caveat — because renewable energy sources are variable, there will be a future need for "balancing" or stabilising technologies to maintain adequate electricity supply 24/7 as the penetration of renewable energy increases.


But the cheapest way to do this, according to the Australian Energy Market Operator and most analysts, is a combination of battery storage (likely to fall in price as production scales up), pumped hydro and electricity from gas-fired power plants to meet peaks in demand — not coal.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 09:22:23 AM by Bigfish »
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Offline paceman

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #354 on: September 04, 2018, 09:27:54 AM »
here's a couple of real-world articles, using real-world current data (not analyst projections) that show why coal-powered electricity generation is critical for the foreseeable future:

https://papundits.wordpress.com/2018/08/13/australian-daily-electrical-power-generation-data-sunday-12th-august-2018-plus-weekly-and-rolling-totals/

https://papundits.wordpress.com/2018/05/13/australian-daily-electrical-power-generation-data-introduction-with-permanent-link-to-daily-and-weekly-posts/


comment from one of the articles (emphasis mine):

Quote
With this Series of Posts, I hope to show that while renewable power is making a contribution, that contribution is small when compared to actual power consumption overall, and when such a huge amount of power is required on an absolute basis, at a regular basis as well, then that can only be delivered by dedicated large scale power plants which can actually do thatd here in Australia, that means it is coal fired power, which is far and away the largest supplier.


whilst renewables may be the holy grail (cheap, plentiful, reliable) of the future, the assumption that renewables can replace our current coal-generated power right now is laughable and dangerous.

it may happen in the future (and that's cool), but there needs to be a staggered, well-thought out approach.

which isn't what we have now.

Offline paceman

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #355 on: September 04, 2018, 09:31:35 AM »
some interesting, real-world numbers at this site:

https://anero.id/energy/

the "Today's Energy Production by Source" graph is particularly useful.

change the 'Grouping' to 'Fuel source - primary' to get a real idea of just what renewables would have to replace for coal to be 'obsolete'.

Offline glenm64

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #356 on: September 04, 2018, 09:44:37 AM »
Agree 100% Paceman.
Problem is we all know theres a need for a change, a transition. But the politics get in the way and coal is pushed as the default.
If all subsidies(and politics) where removed on both sides, I wonder what the capital investment companies long-term decisions would be.
People see renewables as solar and wind, but there are lots of other technologies here and coming into the market.

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Offline paceman

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #357 on: September 04, 2018, 09:52:35 AM »
Agree 100% Paceman.
Problem is we all know theres a need for a change, a transition. But the politics get in the way and coal is pushed as the default.
If all subsidies(and politics) where removed on both sides, I wonder what the capital investment companies long-term decisions would be.
People see renewables as solar and wind, but there are lots of other technologies here and coming into the market.

Cheers Glen

coal is the default at the moment, because nothing can replace it.  the numbers bear that out.

that is the reality that we need to face.

yes, renewables can take some load, but it is a fantasy to believe that coal can just be removed from the equation in the next few years.


Offline Fizzie

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #358 on: September 04, 2018, 10:21:41 AM »
it may happen in the future (and that's cool), but there needs to be a staggered, well-thought out approach.

which isn't what we have now.

& that's the killer, Pace :'(

We should have been having a "staggered, well-thought out approach" for the last 15 years or so, but the bloody pollies in Can'tberra can't make a decision that lasts for any longer than 12 months, or a change of PM, whichever is sooner >:D
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Offline tryagain

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #359 on: September 04, 2018, 10:24:33 AM »
Existing Coal is the cheapest form of generation, then comes wind and solar BUT they are intermittent, then of similar cost is new coal (factoring in build costs) and Wind and solar plus storage.

Given the trend of renewables plus storage prices, this is what most future generation will likely come from, but in the interest of keeping power prices down, we would be wise to keep the existing coal generation online for as long as feasible. 

Offline glenm64

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #360 on: September 04, 2018, 10:28:07 AM »


coal is the default at the moment, because nothing can replace it.  the numbers bear that out.


Im not debating coal being the present day base load default power source.
A big issue we as a nation have, is we are politically hamstrung on is future power generation. For example back in the 40's and 50's, we had politicians who made decisions based on the betterment of future generations, not the next poll results. What decision would those real leaders make?
What I find ironic with what the latest ideas on pulling back power prices, is regulating the prices that can be charged. Deregulation and privatization was meant to give us the cheapest power prices. Now they're going back full circle.
Here in WA its still government owned. Power prices are set by government, balanced between making a profit (which is returned to government coffers) and being palatable to voters at the next election.
Bet some wish they never sold off the farm.


Cheers Glen

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Offline wada4wd

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #361 on: September 04, 2018, 02:09:04 PM »
Existing Coal is the cheapest form of generation, then comes wind and solar BUT they are intermittent, then of similar cost is new coal (factoring in build costs) and Wind and solar plus storage.

Given the trend of renewables plus storage prices, this is what most future generation will likely come from, but in the interest of keeping power prices down, we would be wise to keep the existing coal generation online for as long as feasible.

Correct. We aren't dumping the current coal system until it is worn out. Over time, there will be way more renewable power than today, and the worst of the coal system will eventually be closed because it takes more $$ to maintain it and more expensive to dig, transport, and burn coal than renewable power. Renewables are built and don't burn stuff adding emissions to the atmosphere every day of every year like the coal system does it.

Offline Paddler Ed

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #362 on: September 04, 2018, 03:05:16 PM »

Offline gronk

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #363 on: September 05, 2018, 01:21:28 AM »
Correct. We aren't dumping the current coal system until it is worn out. Over time, there will be way more renewable power than today, and the worst of the coal system will eventually be closed because it takes more $$ to maintain it and more expensive to dig, transport, and burn coal than renewable power. Renewables are built and don't burn stuff adding emissions to the atmosphere every day of every year like the coal system does it.

What a lot aren't realising is until we have a system where renewables can fully replace coal, which is base load power....coal will continue to be our main source of power.
Apart from Denmark, which can do it some of the time, I can't think of any other country that can be reliant on renewables to power themselves 24/7...?
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Offline Cruiser 105Tvan

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #364 on: September 05, 2018, 01:50:13 AM »
And in the mean time the privately owned coal fired Generators are being shut down, because Maintenance is a cost the power companies are not prepared to meet.
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Offline tryagain

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #365 on: September 05, 2018, 03:17:40 AM »
And in the mean time the privately owned coal fired Generators are being shut down, because Maintenance is a cost the power companies are not prepared to meet.

The complicating factor is in that often the energy companies stand to make more money by shutting down the coal fired plants and selling renewables at a higher price instead. Alinta offered to buy Liddell power plant and keep it online beyond it planned closure but AGL said "the offer was not in the best interests of either the company or its shareholders." i.e. they can make more money by stopping it generating cheap power and replacing it with renewables which they can sell for a greater price.
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Offline GeoffA

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #366 on: September 05, 2018, 05:59:15 AM »
Subsidising renewables is akin to a Ponzi scheme.
Power prices cannot fall if we keep subsidising more and more renewables.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 06:01:28 AM by GeoffA »
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Offline Bigfish

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #367 on: September 05, 2018, 06:10:36 AM »
Subsidising renewables is akin to a Ponzi scheme.
Power prices cannot fall if we keep subsidising more and more renewables.

Geoff...Here is the winner of Australias biggest Ponzi Scheme benefactor.........Each year, the Australian government spends billions of dollars of public money on programmes that encourage more coal, gas and oil to be extracted and burned. Market Forces estimates that tax-based fossil fuel subsidies amount to almost $11 billion per year federally. This figure includes subsidies that support both the production and consumption of fossil fuels.

But tax-based subsidies aren’t the only government financial support afforded to fossil fuels. Direct handouts and contributions to the fossil fuel industry are doled out at both federal and state levels. On top of this, public money is used to finance fossil fuels through our national export credit agency EFIC, as well as our involvement with international financial institutions.
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Offline GeoffA

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #368 on: September 05, 2018, 06:15:56 AM »
BF, if you're going to c+p, you really should credit the source.

"Look over there" does not directly address the point.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 06:21:27 AM by GeoffA »
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Offline Bigfish

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #369 on: September 05, 2018, 07:09:04 AM »
BF, if you're going to c+p, you really should credit the source.

"Look over there" does not directly address the point.

Just for you Geoff....https://www.marketforces.org.au/campaigns/ffs/


There are heaps more sites letting us know how many billions coal is subsidised...just like heaps of other industries in Oz.

Heres one for mining...
« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 07:12:19 AM by Bigfish »
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Offline GeoffA

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #370 on: September 05, 2018, 07:15:04 AM »
There are heaps more sites letting us know how many billions coal is subsidised...

More "look over there"....

Coal and gas are major exports for the country. Hardly comparable to the subsidising of renewables...
« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 07:18:16 AM by GeoffA »
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Offline Bigfish

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #371 on: September 05, 2018, 07:29:43 AM »
More "look over there"....

Coal and gas are major exports for the country. Hardly comparable to the subsidising of renewables...

I think its very comparable.  Here we are faced with rising electricity costs, subsidising our gas and coal industry and virtually giving the stuff away to other countries! . We cant even use much gas for ourselves as our stupid govts and greedy corporations are taking our assets at little cost and selling very cheaply to overseas nations that on sell at huge profits. Adani, if they get going, have the same aim...mine , pay and export coal cheaply and make a killing on the world market.  And the governments want to subsidise this shonky outfit as well.  The subsidising of renewables is for our direct benefit...just look at the Australian innovations and technological advancement in solar and battery. Only several days ago a company in Victoria/NSW is printing off solar panels from a pc computer.
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Offline paceman

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #372 on: September 05, 2018, 08:30:02 AM »
Just for you Geoff....https://www.marketforces.org.au/campaigns/ffs/


There are heaps more sites letting us know how many billions coal is subsidised...just like heaps of other industries in Oz.

Heres one for mining...

no-one doubts that coal gets subsidies as well... that is plainly obvious and not in question...

in real life, governments are paying way more $$$ to keep a renewables industry going that is currently inefficient and does not provide the cheap, plentiful and reliable power that people in the real world need.

at least there is a return on the subsidy investment into coal-powered electricity generation.

imagine how much could be done in the areas of health and education (to use your graphic's examples) with the subsidies currently paid to renewables?


and as a side note, i would hardly use the 'marketforces' organisation as a bastion of unbiased analysis, considering they have a vested interest in the success of renewables:

from their 'about us' page (emphasis mine):

Quote
Our vision is a future where institutions invest with a high degree of respect for the environment, utilising our money to deliver solutions to major environmental issues


« Last Edit: September 05, 2018, 08:37:02 AM by paceman »

Offline paceman

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #373 on: September 05, 2018, 08:39:31 AM »
The complicating factor is in that often the energy companies stand to make more money by shutting down the coal fired plants and selling renewables at a higher price instead. Alinta offered to buy Liddell power plant and keep it online beyond it planned closure but AGL said "the offer was not in the best interests of either the company or its shareholders." i.e. they can make more money by stopping it generating cheap power and replacing it with renewables which they can sell for a greater price.

ding, ding, ding... we have a winner...

private companies should not be responsible for wholesale power generation.... let the government control the wholesale generation and then private companies can provide retail services.

Offline jfella

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #374 on: September 05, 2018, 09:49:47 AM »
Just for you Geoff....https://www.marketforces.org.au/campaigns/ffs/


There are heaps more sites letting us know how many billions coal is subsidised...just like heaps of other industries in Oz.

Heres one for mining...

Sorry what you attached is completely misleading to the point of being deceitful

* The 11.3B in subsidies quoted includes 6.5B related to the diesel fuel tax rebate - the government applies taxes to the cost of diesel fuel to pay for public roads but as this fuel is not for vehicles operating on public roads, it refunds the tax charged on purchase (note mining companies pay a separate road tax in QLD for use of roads for moving product - which other industries dont).
* Of the remaining tax quoted, basically all of them are available to all companies regardless of industry
* Regardless of above, where this the value of all the royalties paid to governments by mining?