Post by: sharkcaver on October 10, 2018, 02:09:05 PM
Post by: BaseCamp on October 10, 2018, 02:14:02 PM
So .much for a boom (Aussie) economy..
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Post by: Bad Scott on October 10, 2018, 02:14:47 PM
Post by: Paddy16 on October 10, 2018, 02:28:57 PM
Post by: sharkcaver on October 10, 2018, 02:29:48 PM
It’s tough to manufacture in Australia ATM
I don't doubt it. The bigger you are, the harder you fall. But if you don't grow, you die. A double edged sword indeed.
Post by: Bad Scott on October 10, 2018, 02:36:07 PM
I don't doubt it. The bigger you are, the harder you fall. But if you don't grow, you die. A double edged sword indeed.Lean manufacturing and wanting it done yesterday or make miracles happen, but before you start have you done our site induction. It’ll take 4hrs 😱, but the job is an hours work 🤔
Post by: tombie on October 10, 2018, 02:36:23 PM
Not many seeing value at that price nowadays.
The camper and van industry is very much about trying to extract big margins from punters.
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Post by: tombie on October 10, 2018, 02:38:18 PM
Lean manufacturing and wanting it done yesterday or make miracles happen, but before you start have you done our site induction. It’ll take 4hrsinductions are about making people aware and therefore responsible for their actions., but the job is an hours work
This risk mitigation in financial terms alone is worth the 4 hours of lost productivity.
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Post by: trinityalyce on October 10, 2018, 02:49:15 PM
Easy to blame cheap imports from countries where paying staff a living wage is optional... but who knows how many other factors are at play for each of these camper companies going under.
Makes us grateful we got ours when we did...
They’re a fantastic camper and the Ulti community is such a huge bonus.
Post by: Bird on October 10, 2018, 03:32:32 PM
Quote from: tombie
The camper and van industry is very much about trying to extract big margins from punters.I believe thats called business.
Post by: BaseCamp on October 10, 2018, 04:06:41 PM
Lean manufacturing and wanting it done yesterday or make miracles happen, but before you start have you done our site induction. It’ll take 4hrs
.... hmmm - that reminds me of a job I had to do for Coca-Cola Amitel a few years back...
N e v e r again..
The job wasn't even "in the plant"... it was in a marquee in the carpark... using all my own equipment etc...
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Post by: tombie on October 10, 2018, 04:21:25 PM
I believe thats called business.
That it may be. But as shown...
It isn’t sustainable when you aim to Fleece the punters - you end up with a small closed market and low sales volumes.
Shame they are all learning this lesson now.
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Post by: Pottsy on October 10, 2018, 04:22:23 PM
https://insolvencynotices.asic.gov.au/browsesearch-notices/notice-details/Off-Road-Camping-Accessories-Pty-Limited-075829882/967d1d4d-a53b-49f8-832a-7259e94d8385?appointment=All¬icestate=All&companynameoracn=Ultimate+off+road+campers&court=&district=&dnotice=
Post by: KingBilly on October 10, 2018, 04:35:26 PM
KB
Post by: KeithB on October 10, 2018, 04:46:03 PM
https://www.caravancampingsales.com.au/editorial/details/ultimate-aims-high-with-nautilus-30001/ (https://www.caravancampingsales.com.au/editorial/details/ultimate-aims-high-with-nautilus-30001/)
https://www.ultimateoffroadcampers.com.au/blog/on-the-road-magazine-reviews-the-ultimate-nautilus/ (https://www.ultimateoffroadcampers.com.au/blog/on-the-road-magazine-reviews-the-ultimate-nautilus/)
When a luxury and very capable off road camper costs the same as a full-on luxury off road caravan, you gotta wonder how big the market for something like this might be. I notice that the AOR Matrix vans are now well over $100,000.
I am building a light weight off road pop up caravan of 14 ft and I reckon I could have made a 19ft caravan of similar spec for about the same money. So do luxury off road hybrids have a future?
Keith
Post by: BaseCamp on October 10, 2018, 05:01:03 PM
And also for all the existing owners... I would think that having your manufacturer go bust would not be a good thing for "resale value", warranty claims, or spare parts needs....
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Post by: McGirr on October 10, 2018, 05:53:00 PM
There are so many manufacturers in the market today.
Caravans, hybrids, campers builders are all vying for market share.
The problem is the pricing and market segment they are in. The $40k to $60k market is the toughest.
Unfortunatly there will be more players to fall. As mentioned it’s not the import competition but manufacturers that don’t follow the market or adapt to changes. Having only one style of product, in this market, does not work. Look at Aussie Swag and now Ulitimate.
The company that saw the market changing years ago was complete campsite. Seeing the influx of imports in the early days, they embarked on building something different, took the risk, and it paid off.
Other manufacturers need to follow suit or it will only be a matter of time.
Mark
Post by: SEADOO on October 10, 2018, 06:09:56 PM
My $2 worth.
There are so many manufacturers in the market today.
Caravans, hybrids, campers builders are all vying for market share.
The problem is the pricing and market segment they are in. The $40k to $60k market is the toughest.
Unfortunatly there will be more players to fall. As mentioned it’s not the import competition but manufacturers that don’t follow the market or adapt to changes. Having only one style of product, in this market, does not work. Look at Aussie Swag and now Ulitimate.
The company that saw the market changing years ago was complete campsite. Seeing the influx of imports in the early days, they embarked on building something different, took the risk, and it paid off.
Other manufacturers need to follow suit or it will only be a matter of time.
Mark
Very true, Lifestyle is another example. They no longer build soft floor campers, only Hybrids. No doubt caravans within the next couple of years as the novelty of Hybrids dries up and every body wants a full sized van.
Post by: Bigfish on October 10, 2018, 06:44:45 PM
Very true, Lifestyle is another example. They no longer build soft floor campers, only Hybrids. No doubt caravans within the next couple of years as the novelty of Hybrids dries up and every body wants a full sized van.
Its all about glamping now. So many retirees cashed up and wanting to go away but live like they do at home. They are welcome to it. I much prefer being out bush camping. The more big arsed vans and hybrids the better...at least I know they aren't going to the bush areas. Second hand campers are real value for money.
Post by: Craig Tomkinson on October 10, 2018, 06:53:04 PM
Post by: lukeycat on October 10, 2018, 07:04:17 PM
Currently working on a project for Toyota closing down their manufacturing facility and have previously worked at the two Victorian Ford plants, shutting these things down impacts significantly throughout their supply chains which sucks, quite a few mum and dad businesses get shut down also when these things close really feel for the people. After working at the Ford plant it was no surprise that they saw it was too expensive tand manufacture here, you had staff whose one job may have been to attach door trims as the cars passed down the line and they were earning big dollars relative to their skill and the job required which clearly wasn't sustainable.
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Post by: Rumpig on October 10, 2018, 07:21:19 PM
Its all about glamping now. So many retirees cashed up and wanting to go away but live like they do at home. They are welcome to it. I much prefer being out bush camping. The more big arsed vans and hybrids the better...at least I know they aren't going to the bush areas. Second hand campers are real value for money.just did a trip with a mate who towed his Lifestyle van along on the trip...we went from Brisbane down The Darling River run (Bourke, Louth, Trilby Station, Wilcannia and onto Broken Hill), out to Silverton, South to Yunta and then onto Arkaroola Station in the Flinders Ranges, straight up to The Strzelecki Track, Montecollina Bore onto Merty Merty and Cameron Corner, then through Sturt National Park to Tibboburra and onto Hungerford via Wannaring and into Currawinya National Park, then home via Thallon and Nindigully....reckon that counts as going bush with his van doesn't it?...lol.
Post by: SEADOO on October 10, 2018, 07:23:19 PM
Sad but it's happening in all facets of Aussie manufacturing, being a Kimberly owner I feel for the people who may loose cash and the employees, by the sounds of it they had just ramped up employing a bigger work force.
Currently working on a project for Toyota closing down their manufacturing facility and have previously worked at the two Victorian Ford plants, shutting these things down impacts significantly throughout their supply chains which sucks, quite a few mum and dad businesses get shut down also when these things close really feel for the people. After working at the Ford plant it was no surprise that they saw it was too expensive tand manufacture here, you had staff whose one job may have been to attach door trims as the cars passed down the line and they were earning big dollars relative to their skill and the job required which clearly wasn't sustainable.
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I recall reading an article on how the unions got their members massive pay and holiday contracts. Old mate leaves school at year 10, gets a job on the assembly line, works his way up from floor sweeper to dash board installer and he is on $80k and 5 weeks annual holidays. Not bad for someone that installs dash boards.
Post by: lukeycat on October 10, 2018, 07:32:10 PM
I recall reading an article on how the unions got their members massive pay and holiday contracts. Old mate leaves school at year 10, gets a job on the assembly line, works his way up from floor sweeper to dash board installer and he is on $80k and 5 weeks annual holidays. Not bad for someone that installs dash boards.
Too true mate didn't wanna mention the U word as people get offended hahahaha but they absolutely killed the car industry there and were nowhere to be found when their industry closes down.
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Post by: Moxley on October 10, 2018, 08:22:33 PM
Its all about glamping now. So many retirees cashed up and wanting to go away but live like they do at home. They are welcome to it. I much prefer being out bush camping. The more big arsed vans and hybrids the better...at least I know they aren't going to the bush areas. Second hand campers are real value for money.
I agree, but I’ve seen some caravans where I didn’t expect to, and unfortunately heaps of remote/difficult to get to places seem to have been closed off.
I think people are time poor, so after quick (even though towing a caravan is not as quick as a camper), and they want the usual luxuries. That’s why a lot of caravan parks I’ve been to in the last year or so are, themselves, adapting to change. And that change seems to be many more cabins, and not as many van or camper sites.
Post by: Fullberries on October 10, 2018, 08:30:20 PM
Post by: tryagain on October 10, 2018, 08:32:11 PM
Post by: MDS69 on October 10, 2018, 08:44:49 PM
About six years ago Ultimate brought out the all fibreglass Ultimate Nautilus camper which started at about $95,000 and later went to $120,000 plus options. It was a head to head competitor with the Kimberley Karavan but was a flop in the market and was later discontinued. I guess the company put a lot of money into it and I wonder if that's where its problems may have started.
https://www.caravancampingsales.com.au/editorial/details/ultimate-aims-high-with-nautilus-30001/ (https://www.caravancampingsales.com.au/editorial/details/ultimate-aims-high-with-nautilus-30001/)
https://www.ultimateoffroadcampers.com.au/blog/on-the-road-magazine-reviews-the-ultimate-nautilus/ (https://www.ultimateoffroadcampers.com.au/blog/on-the-road-magazine-reviews-the-ultimate-nautilus/)
When a luxury and very capable off road camper costs the same as a full-on luxury off road caravan, you gotta wonder how big the market for something like this might be. I notice that the AOR Matrix vans are now well over $100,000.
I am building a light weight off road pop up caravan of 14 ft and I reckon I could have made a 19ft caravan of similar spec for about the same money. So do luxury off road hybrids have a future?
Keith
I have said it before but I really don’t understand the prices of these things and other vans. Think of the common modern day car. Full of electronics, a motor and gearbox/transmission with so many machined moving parts with tight tolerances, safety features and engineering like you wouldn’t believe built in massive factories overseas then freighted to Australia. High tech paint booths and assembly lines. All for $20k. These campers and vans are essentially a box on wheels designed by a guy on CAD. Where is the value. Yes I understand economy of scale for the motor vehicle but really $80k to $120k+ for a camper......
Post by: Swannie on October 10, 2018, 09:01:27 PM
Post by: trinityalyce on October 10, 2018, 09:22:23 PM
My view is this, 10 years ago an ultimate or Kimberly camper where seen as the pinnacle and off-road caravans were around but not targeting the market like they are now. I think it’s the off road vans doing the damage to campers. Even though they serve different purposes
I think there’s a lot of merit in that.
We considered a caravan, but we didn’t want to give up getting to some places a full sized (albeit smaller) van would have stopped us from reaching. The likes of the Ultimate is a great compromise between comfort and offroad capability. It IS a high-end product in a competitive market. And as offroad vans are being built stronger and becoming more popular for a range of reasons, the high end campers have been drowned out a bit.
It suits us well and we love it. But even we can see that they are kind of a square peg in a round hole in today’s market.
Post by: KeithB on October 11, 2018, 07:32:26 AM
Getting an off road van, even a small one, into a lot of remote places takes a good deal of off road driving skill which most folks don't have. Travelling Australia is mostly on flat dirt roads and all that's required is a sturdy camper or van. The compromises that come with something small are really not necessary for these kinds of roads, where a sturdy caravan with all the home comforts does just fine.
So the dedicated upmarket off road camper or hybrid is finding itself in a very restricted and dwindling market. They cost the same as caravans after all.
Keith
Post by: Kangaron on October 11, 2018, 08:06:26 AM
just did a trip with a mate who towed his Lifestyle van along on the trip...we went from Brisbane down The Darling River run (Bourke, Louth, Trilby Station, Wilcannia and onto Broken Hill), out to Silverton, South to Yunta and then onto Arkaroola Station in the Flinders Ranges, straight up to The Strzelecki Track, Montecollina Bore onto Merty Merty and Cameron Corner, then through Sturt National Park to Tibboburra and onto Hungerford via Wannaring and into Currawinya National Park, then home via Thallon and Nindigully....reckon that counts as going bush with his van doesn't it?...lol.
Not at all, usually well graded flat dirt roads, the sort of roads we that go bush, avoid, due to the amount of caravans.
Post by: chester ver2.0 on October 11, 2018, 08:17:11 AM
I recall reading an article on how the unions got their members massive pay and holiday contracts. Old mate leaves school at year 10, gets a job on the assembly line, works his way up from floor sweeper to dash board installer and he is on $80k and 5 weeks annual holidays. Not bad for someone that installs dash boards.
Yep and that is what killed the industry their own greed
Post by: JusyApples on October 11, 2018, 08:18:23 AM
I have said it before but I really don’t understand the prices of these things and other vans. Think of the common modern day car. Full of electronics, a motor and gearbox/transmission with so many machined moving parts with tight tolerances, safety features and engineering like you wouldn’t believe built in massive factories overseas then freighted to Australia. High tech paint booths and assembly lines. All for $20k. These campers and vans are essentially a box on wheels designed by a guy on CAD. Where is the value. Yes I understand economy of scale for the motor vehicle but really $80k to $120k+ for a camper......
I agree I saw these at Rosehill this year, couldn't believe the price. Same goes for companies like patriot campers. $50k plus for basically an off-road trailer with a roof top tent. No thanks
Post by: Bird on October 11, 2018, 08:45:22 AM
I have said it before but I really don’t understand the prices of these things and other vans. Think of the common modern day car. Full of electronics, a motor and gearbox/transmission with so many machined moving parts with tight tolerances, safety features and engineering like you wouldn’t believe built in massive factories overseas then freighted to Australia. High tech paint booths and assembly lines. All for $20k. These campers and vans are essentially a box on wheels designed by a guy on CAD. Where is the value. Yes I understand economy of scale for the motor vehicle but really $80k to $120k+ for a camper......
(http://7dailyhabits.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/hit-the-nail-on-the-head.jpg)
Post by: sharkcaver on October 11, 2018, 10:59:01 AM
Post by: Rumpig on October 11, 2018, 11:09:44 AM
Not at all, usually well graded flat dirt roads, the sort of roads we that go bush, avoid, due to the amount of caravans.My apologises, you didn’t specify what your idea of going bush was....i'll be sure and tell the farmers who's properties we visited that they don't live in the bush.
Post by: rossm on October 11, 2018, 11:38:11 AM
Just in time by the look of it.
But it is sad to see a company go bust, though having been there a long time ago my sympathy is mainly with the workers. Back then no protection of entitlements. We got 30 cents in the dollar.
Edit: and I should add any suppliers and contractors who often are left out of pocket in these circumstances.
I agree with the description of the Ultimate as a niche product. First time I saw one it was WTF but after travelling with people who had one I saw the pros as well as a few cons.
Look for an overseas manufacturer to step in with a Clayton’s Ultimate.
Post by: Spada on October 11, 2018, 11:41:42 AM
I have said it before but I really don’t understand the prices of these things and other vans. Think of the common modern day car. Full of electronics, a motor and gearbox/transmission with so many machined moving parts with tight tolerances, safety features and engineering like you wouldn’t believe built in massive factories overseas then freighted to Australia. High tech paint booths and assembly lines. All for $20k. These campers and vans are essentially a box on wheels designed by a guy on CAD. Where is the value. Yes I understand economy of scale for the motor vehicle but really $80k to $120k+ for a camper......
CODB/Pruduction units =minimum FM to be applied to price before profit and taxes.
Lets say you have a high-end producer with a factory that employs 20+ workers to produce 2 campers per week. Not only is there a higher cost for the initial components due to them being a higher quality than mass produced imported products, but the entire cost of operating that business, wages, on-costs, rent, marketing, R&D, utilities, taxes, and every other conceivable overhead of the business for that week needs to be paid for from the sale of those 2 campers, + some profit to keep the company viable. So lets guess weekly CODB of $60k, then each camper sold needs to have a 30K margin in the price to break even.
Toyota for example produces roughly 28,000 cars every day, from largely automated production lines, so whilst their operating costs are massive, that cost is shared amongst 10,000,000 units per year.
Post by: Spada on October 11, 2018, 12:01:03 PM
Drag out your camping photo's from 10 years ago and compare then to what you see in the campgrounds now. 10 Years ago, most people were camping in tents, with a few of those "awe inspiring, wish I had one" soft floor campers in the mix. Caravans went to caravan parks, the term "hybrid" hadn't been invented yet, and those that wanted hard core off-road luxury either had a Kimberly, Ultimate, or a small custom caravan from a bespoke builder like Trackmaster.
fast forward to now, who still goes camping in a tent (you keep quiet Pete ;) ), try selling a soft floor these days, and there are around 35 dozen caravan manufacturers that sell off-road caravans. A good majority of buyers are happy to buy a 3letter brand Chinese built off-road looking caravan, and the manufactures of high end quality off-road units are left to fight over the very small group of customers that are willing to pay a premium price for a premium product.
just my take on it ?
Ultimate have entered into voluntary administration, they haven't shut their doors and are still producing as far as I can tell. Here's hoping the administrators can can help the business rationalise without too much impact on to the customers, workers, or creditors.
Post by: McGirr on October 11, 2018, 12:18:31 PM
Post by: BaseCamp on October 11, 2018, 03:57:12 PM
Being an ultimate owner, I'll give my take. Ultimate as a business grew too big to service its debt. The larger the operation, the larger the debt. With such massive overheads, they need large sales volumes. All this for a niche product. Selling a niche product into a market place with so much competition from non niche product is always going to be a hard slog, if at all achievable. When you are pushing a 100 units a year out the door, you need a hell of a lot of sales to recover cost. I have no idea how many units per year they are selling, but 100 P.A. sounds like a hell of a lot for lets face it, a product for a limited audience. Don't get me wrong, I love my ulit, but I'm aware of its limitations too. For instance, wet weather in canvas sucks - one reason hybrids seem to be doing well.That's the thing that put me off Ultimates..
Pros -
# Ultra lightweight for what it was..
# Blingy..
Deal Breaker Negatives, (for me) -
# Mega Bucks for what it was..
# Very Niched.....
# Those acres of canvas - (dry or wet)
# And where's the nice awning/anex set up (like say the LCT, AT Class has?)...
Simplisticly described - the weight loss bonus was achieved by creating a big canvas tent on top of a plastic box - at a big buck price...
(I know there was also their bling element too... The last paragraph is just shorthand on their "consumer perception" imho)..
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Post by: Cruiser 105Tvan on October 11, 2018, 04:19:56 PM
Another feature that takes the shine off the product.
Post by: Bad Scott on October 11, 2018, 04:28:24 PM
Every time you pack up an Ultimate you have to disassemble the bed.And that takes no more than 5 mins. :cheers:
Another feature that takes the shine off the product.
Post by: trinityalyce on October 11, 2018, 06:18:37 PM
Every time you pack up an Ultimate you have to disassemble the bed.
Another feature that takes the shine off the product.
Still quicker than some alternatives. We can set up *everything* from pulling up to being able to hop into bed in 14 mins (probably a fair bit less now - last time we actually bothered to time it was probably our 3rd weekend in it!).
We thought the same way about the bed initially until we actually talked to a few owners and saw the setup up close. Every setup has compromises. While we didn’t want to have to make and pack up the bed every time there were a lot of other positives in our book that outweighed the minor inconvenience of the bed. Someone else will think differently, and that’s why the market has options (though maybe another one down pending how this plays out).
Post by: rags on October 11, 2018, 06:50:17 PM
CODB/Pruduction units =minimum FM to be applied to price before profit and taxes.
CODB FM OK WTF OH ISIICWIO
CODB = Cost Of Doing Business
or
CODB = Cost Of Draught Beer
??
FM = Fun Money
or
FM = Factory Markup
or
FM = Fark Me
Post by: Spada on October 11, 2018, 07:25:28 PM
CODB/production = cost of doing business divided by number of units produced
FM = first margin (the initial markup to a product to convert cost price to sell price) and is different to GP (gross profit). For example if an item costs $1 to produce and and you sell if for $2, then you have applied a first margin of 100% to the cost price, but made a 50% gross profit on the sale price.
If you really want to get funky we could start talking EBIT and GMROI, and while were on a role, lets not forget amortization of assets (verses asset depreciation) ;D
Post by: rags on October 11, 2018, 07:31:31 PM
sorry Rags......old habits die hard.
CODB/production = cost of doing business divided by number of units produced
FM = first margin (the initial markup to a product to convert cost price to sell price) and is different to GP (gross profit). For example if an item costs $1 to produce and and you sell if for $2, then you have applied a first margin of 100% to the cost price, but made a 50% gross profit on the sale price.
If you really want to get funky we could start talking EBIT and GMROI, and while were on a role, lets not forget amortization of assets (verses asset depreciation) ;D
FFFT I understand now.😊
Post by: Paddler Ed on October 11, 2018, 08:02:53 PM
Yes, Ultimate (and Kimberly) build a good quality product, but in an era of conspicuous consumption an evolving design doesn't signify "I've bought a new one". As their products don't wear or date particularly, one built in 2010 looks very much like one built last year.
This means that:
a) there isn't a need to buy a new one to replace one that is wearing out/falling apart
b) you look flash, even with an older one
c) they hold their value because they don't date
An example of the age/wear and tear, is the change between my parents selling their caravan's after 3 years (UK made Swifts) to changing their 'vans every 5-7 years (Knaus or Fendt - German made) because the build quality was so much better, and they didn't date as much. UK vans often change colours ever so slightly which means you can date them to within a year or so by the colours of the stripes etc, as opposed to Aussie vans that don't change much exterior wise year to year.
Now, if we look at the typical buyer, they are a bit older, a bit more affluent and often no kids. Some are retired, some are semi-retired and some have the ability to free up capital in their house/put it on finance. This is in contrast to many 30-40 year olds who are beginning to experience mortgage stress (ie over 1/3 of their household income in rent or mortgage payments) and a bit of financial pressure, so the $50k+ market for a camper isn't going to be looking that appealing. Also as those who are retiring are possibly beginning to realise that their capital gain in their house might need to be passed on to the next generation rather than selling the lot and buying a flash outfit for the big lap, this might be beginning to tighten the market at that end.
Ultimately, this boils down to:
1) Small market to begin with, and therefore difficult to achieve economies of scale due to limit sales numbers. The ability to quickly scale up is not there as the market demand isn't there. They might not have access to the right capital to allow an increase in production, or they might not fit in the government schemes neatly that allow for growth (for example, if in regional NSW they might have been eligible for the regional growth loan (https://www.jobsfornsw.com.au/our-products/regional-growth-loans))
2) Product design that evolves rather revolutionary (and revolutionary design is expensive)
3) Consumers are nearly dying off and those that aren't dying off are choosing to buy something else instead for any number of reasons (some of which others have identified)
At the end of the day, the cost of production is a factor but I don't think it's the be all or end all - market changes are as crucial, and the market is both the demand (consumer) and supply (competition or substitutes).
Post by: Trev-p on October 11, 2018, 10:31:47 PM
Furniture - Generally China
Cars - Thailand
TV's - China
Frozen Vegtables - China
etc etc
I finally found something made in Australia......MY KIDS, although technically probably made on a Chinese bed or possibly Chinese trampoline(wild night). Having said that I'm considering selling them on the Chinese version of ebay.
I did find some Drifta canvas bags in the cupboard so I'm teaching my kids how to use a sewing machine for their future employment opportunities.
Post by: trinityalyce on October 13, 2018, 09:17:38 AM
This got me thinking and looking around the house for Australian made
Furniture - Generally China
Cars - Thailand
TV's - China
Frozen Vegtables - China
etc etc
It’s the sad truth these days!
Where possible I buy older Australian made furniture because it actually lasts. A lot of things I own furniture wise would be 80-100+ years old and have been in my family generations. And I just scored myself a partners desk on Gumtree - it was the bloke’s father’s desk from when he was working (long since passed on) and was built by a Brisbane furniture maker in roughly the 40s. I get that for “my generation” (older millennial) I’m an odd one out. But they don’t make things like they used to...
...The bigger question is why? Off-shore manufacturing if cheaper. The quality is *improving* but not across the board. Many people expect low prices that come with off-shore manufacturing where labour is so much cheaper (let’s move right past the ethical arguments). Low prices and cheaper quality mean disposable products that end up in landfill. No one gets a TV repaired anymore (generalisation), because frankly it’s not worth it. You just buy a new couch when the so-called “leather” peels off the cheap one you bought... Not to mention the “I’ll have one of everything” expectation many people have these days - our parents and grandparents went without many things to have a few nice things. That’s something that’s lost on many children now who beg for the latest and greatest plastic toy that by next year will be long forgotten (or broken) and probably in a tip somewhere...
How did we hit this point? Do “premium products” like the Ultimate Campers even have a place in today’s cheaper, more disposable market where people want - or expect - to throw away or trade in what they have every few years?
What about the premium caravan manufacturers like Bushtracker? Are they going to be able to stay competitive when the low and middle market competitors are bringing out flash looking offroad vans in bright colours and getting them endorsed by whatever off-roading TV show is the biggest thing at the time?
Post by: Bird on October 13, 2018, 10:25:40 AM
This got me thinking and looking around the house for Australian madethere is so little made in this country compared to 30 yrs ago they should save the money on the 'buy australian' campaign - if there still is one
Furniture - Generally China
Cars - Thailand
TV's - China
Frozen Vegtables - China
etc etc
I finally found something made in Australia......MY KIDS, although technically probably made on a Chinese bed or possibly Chinese trampoline(wild night). Having said that I'm considering selling them on the Chinese version of ebay.
I did find some Drifta canvas bags in the cupboard so I'm teaching my kids how to use a sewing machine for their future employment opportunities.
Post by: Craig Tomkinson on October 13, 2018, 11:10:36 AM
Post by: BaseCamp on October 13, 2018, 11:54:35 AM
(a) a lot of coin; and that
(b) these concepts became too niched for Australia's matured/saturated and limited market..
Perhaps if Ultimate had established export markets (as KK had attempted), it may have gone better?
I believe the situation where a market segment (CT, Van, etc) has cheaper made and cheaper to buy local (Jayco), and imported (MDC), product -- does not automatically mean that this will be at the detriment and/or demise of quality made and more costly products..
I think in a marketplace - it is all about market segmentation and choice and demand... Like how for a myriad of reasons some will buy a BMW, others, a Berina...
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Post by: Spada on October 14, 2018, 06:19:42 AM
there is so little made in this country compared to 30 yrs ago they should save the money on the 'buy australian' campaign - if there still is one
O.H.& S is the only growing industry left in Australia...............................every other industry is being outsourced to 3rd world countries (that don't have any OH&S) >:D
Post by: KathyL on October 14, 2018, 06:37:04 AM
"In June this year the company was among the list of successful applicants offered funding under the Regional Jobs and Investment Packages, South Coast, New South Wales region for $758,134 to go towards their Composite Camper and Rapid Adhesive Assembly Process estimated at $1,516,268
The grant for the project was awarded to help develop cost competitive curved composite panels, and design and manufacture a high quality, light weight entry level compact camper using the new types of composite panels for rapid assembly. The project would see the manufacturing process fully automated, simplified and scalable to ensure the new compact composite camper will be cost competitive with international competitors."
https://www.beagleweekly.com.au/single-post/2018/10/11/Moruyas-Ultimate-Campers-in-Voluntary-Administration (https://www.beagleweekly.com.au/single-post/2018/10/11/Moruyas-Ultimate-Campers-in-Voluntary-Administration)
Post by: Moxley on October 14, 2018, 07:00:50 AM
Article in Eurobodalla online news about Ultimate ...
"In June this year the company was among the list of successful applicants offered funding under the Regional Jobs and Investment Packages, South Coast, New South Wales region for $758,134 to go towards their Composite Camper and Rapid Adhesive Assembly Process estimated at $1,516,268
The grant for the project was awarded to help develop cost competitive curved composite panels, and design and manufacture a high quality, light weight entry level compact camper using the new types of composite panels for rapid assembly. The project would see the manufacturing process fully automated, simplified and scalable to ensure the new compact composite camper will be cost competitive with international competitors."
https://www.beagleweekly.com.au/single-post/2018/10/11/Moruyas-Ultimate-Campers-in-Voluntary-Administration (https://www.beagleweekly.com.au/single-post/2018/10/11/Moruyas-Ultimate-Campers-in-Voluntary-Administration)
Sounds a bit more like an investment package than a jobs package.
Post by: Spada on October 14, 2018, 07:01:08 AM
So wages and associated payroll on-costs alone would be around 70k per week, plus the plant/business operating costs for each week, plus the annualized non-direct expenses of the business. Potentially the weekly CODB (cost of doing business) alone could be well in excess of 100K per week, and needs to be covered each week from an average of 2.3 units sold, so each Ultimate sold needs to have a minimum of 43k of business cost, plus the actual cost of the componants themselves built into the sale price just to break even? Then add on a modest profit margin of 15% ? plus GST..............................................................and some people cant believe why these (and all other premium campers) cost so much ?
How much is an Ultimate camper? 60K or so ?
Post by: plusnq on October 14, 2018, 07:49:49 AM
Post by: D4D on October 14, 2018, 08:16:37 AM
So wages and associated payroll on-costs alone would be around 70k per week, plus the plant/business operating costs for each week, plus the annualized non-direct expenses of the business. Potentially the weekly CODB (cost of doing business) alone could be well in excess of 100K per week, and needs to be covered each week from an average of 2.3 units sold, so each Ultimate sold needs to have a minimum of 43k of business cost, plus the actual cost of the componants themselves built into the sale price just to break even? Then add on a modest profit margin of 15% ? plus GST..............................................................and some people cant believe why these (and all other premium campers) cost so much ?
When you do the back of napkin calculations, you can see that most of these companies are running on overdrafts and owners passion.
Post by: BaseCamp on October 14, 2018, 08:23:49 AM
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Post by: Bird on October 14, 2018, 08:43:54 AM
Quote from: Spada
O.H.& S is the only growing industry left in Australia...............................every other industry is being outsourced to 3rd world countries (that don't have any OH&S) >:D
Quote from: BaseCamp
...were getting their boxes glassed in China...
and again like it or not, the chinese trailers are the majority of the problem
Post by: KathyL on October 14, 2018, 08:49:36 AM
Base level was just over $40k. They were a pretty lean operation when I toured their facility a few years ago.XTRK model was dropped last year and entry level camper (XPLOR) started at $55k ...
https://www.facebook.com/ultimatecampers/ (https://www.facebook.com/ultimatecampers/)
Post by: Bird on October 14, 2018, 09:13:11 AM
it was only few days before administrators called in... :(
Post by: KathyL on October 14, 2018, 09:20:18 AM
wonder how many done their $ at the melb leisurefest.. or if that was going to be the make or break show, and they broke.Based on our experience when buying an Ultimate camper a few years ago, and unlike most other caravan/RV/camper trailer companies, they didn't take deposits at shows - they gave quotes that were valid for seven days ...
it was only few days before administrators called in
Post by: plusnq on October 14, 2018, 09:38:00 AM
Based on our buying experience when buying an Ultimate camper a few years ago, and unlike most other caravan/RV/camper trailer companies, they didn't take deposits at shows - they gave quotes that were valid for seven days ...
Our experience was similar. The hardest part of business would have to be deciding when the business needs the administrators called in. Up until that point , the business managers are obliged to seek ways to keep the business going. Unfortunately there is always someone who was the last order before the decision had to be made, and we all hope it isn't us.I feel more for the people who have made their last payment but haven't yet received their camper. They have paid in full. Hopefully those orders can be completed.
Post by: KingBilly on October 14, 2018, 10:00:41 AM
Our experience was similar. The hardest part of business would have to be deciding when the business needs the administrators called in. Up until that point , the business managers are obliged to seek ways to keep the business going. Unfortunately there is always someone who was the last order before the decision had to be made, and we all hope it isn't us.I feel more for the people who have made their last payment but haven't yet received their camper. They have paid in full. Hopefully those orders can be completed.
From what I read above, they are still trading, so no deposits lost as yet.
KB
Post by: tryagain on October 14, 2018, 01:21:11 PM
From the article posted by KathyL - "It has until recently employed 50 people and produced between 100 to 120 new camper trailers per annum."
So wages and associated payroll on-costs alone would be around 70k per week,
That's assuming all fulltime workers, there might be a decent number of part timer's/casuals in that mix, I doubt they would have last this long with those sales figures and a wages bill that high, but the broader point you make is right.
Post by: rossm on October 14, 2018, 02:09:18 PM
That's assuming all fulltime workers, there might be a decent number of part timer's/casuals in that mix, I doubt they would have last this long with those sales figures and a wages bill that high, but the broader point you make is right.
And maybe a few were not actually employees, but subcontractors brought in for specific tasks.
Would they have tradesmen on full time staff for specialist jobs like electrics, plumbing, gas etc?
It’s an academic argument I guess. But all you can hope is that buyers, workers and contractors get out alive.
Post by: KingBilly on October 14, 2018, 02:43:33 PM
And maybe a few were not actually employees, but subcontractors brought in for specific tasks.
Would they have tradesmen on full time staff for specialist jobs like electrics, plumbing, gas etc?
It’s an academic argument I guess. But all you can hope is that buyers, workers and contractors get out alive.
In the caravan/camper industry, you do not need to be trade qualified for plumbing and 12 volt electrics.
KB
Post by: rags on October 14, 2018, 04:02:00 PM
Effectively the company has grown from in 2004 2 employees to a peak of 50 employees in 2013 which in their words was "a little unmanageable" to now around 38 employees.
They have stepped away from the original core of tent trailers to now focusing on the hybrid range and their single rear fold XTE.
This seems twofold in that the demand for a high end tent trailer has diminished and that competing against the imported stuff is increasingly difficult and that the tent trailer market has moved towards the forward fold range which they decided did not warrant investment in.
They talk of the challenges of maintaining an Australian sourced product.
Good article on a company that has an impressive product, one which Spada would attest to, read here http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=55167.0 (http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=55167.0)
Post by: Pebble on October 14, 2018, 04:20:21 PM
It's a shame about Ultimate, we really liked a lot of aspects of their design but ended up choosing a TVan at that time.... for us the whole idea of such a camper was to get away from having so much canvas..... know the bed doesn't take long to make...but it has to be made each time...and you can't store stuff on it either.
Mind you these days some of the TVan models cost a lot more than they did 5yrs ago when we brought ours. We thought about upgrading to a "Hybrid" or Crossover or whatever something like the Topaz would be called.... but it was actually cheaper to buy a little offroad caravan like the Trakmaster Gibson!
Ultimate obviously did try to innovate and move with the times but I guess they just didn't get it quiet right. It's a real shame they didn't evolve well enough to satisfy their target market, I guess especially after other brands come up with competing designs (look at Pioneers TVan copy for example).
Post by: sharkcaver on October 14, 2018, 10:45:44 PM
Post by: lukeycat on October 16, 2018, 08:38:10 PM
The fat lady hasn't sung yet, so talk of ultimate's demise is a bit premature until all is revealed at the creditors special meeting. It may be able to trade out of its woes, albeit, somewhat differently to what the business is at present. Time will tell, but I'm holding a pessimistic view of the outcome. I hope I'm wrong on that.
I hope ya wrong too but it's very similar to the kk situation early on.
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Post by: KathyL on October 25, 2018, 04:02:59 PM
Quote
AN OPPORTUNITY NOT TO BE MISSED - INVEST IN OR BUY ULTIMATE CAMPERS
OFFERS BY CLOSE OF BUSINESS 02 NOVEMBER 2018.
Genuinely interested parties should contact Darren Carter of Capital Brokers on 0433 858010 or darren@capitalbrokers.com.au. Darren is handling the sale.
Founded almost 25 years ago, Ultimate Campers has grown to become one of the most iconic off-road camper trailer brands in Australia. Why? Because it delivered on its promise to provide a more fuel-efficient, light weight and aerodynamic towing experience combined with superior off-road performance, reliability and durability. An off-road camper from Ultimate Campers is guaranteed to be able to negotiate any off-road track in Australia you care to mention because over the years Ultimates have done every track you care to mention and then some. In short, they have street cred and are highly-respected by those within the industry.
There is a highly-experienced and dedicated team in Moruya on the South Coast of NSW ready to start making and servicing these iconic campers immediately. If you are up for it, so are they.
The high end off-road niche market needs competition and there is a place for a unique product like Ultimate in the market that is built in Australia, by Australians for Australian off-road adventures.
Post by: McGirr on October 25, 2018, 04:20:50 PM
Hence the reason for the position they are in.
Hopefully I am proven wrong.
Mark
Post by: SEADOO on October 25, 2018, 04:24:02 PM
Soft floors have come and gone.
Rear folding hard floors soon to follow.
Forward fold the new thing and you can purchase new under $20k.
Hybrids with very limited canvas stil in fashion.
Caravans and pop tops here to stay.
Post by: KathyL on November 23, 2018, 09:48:06 AM
The Adventure Will Continue....
After the recent voluntary closure of Moruya-based Ultimate Off-Road Campers, Eagle Outdoors Group is excited to announce the purchase of this iconic off-road brand and is looking forward to continuing to manufacture these world-class innovative campers in Moruya.
“We are one hundred per cent committed to the people and local community who have made this amazing camper such a success over the past two plus decades and are pleased to announce production will recommence immediately,” said new owners and founders of Eagle Outdoor Group, David and Bronwyn Rodgers.
Eagle Outdoors is a large, well known and respected outdoor and camping manufacturing family business that has been in operation since 1978. The company?s headquarters is in Melbourne.
“We are delighted to be re-employing many of the local team who know this product inside out and will take us forward in the years ahead. These are high-quality campers that will continue to be made in Australia, by Australians, for Australian off-road adventures,” they added.
Other Eagle Outdoor Group brands include, amongst others, Bluewater Campers (https://www.bluewatercampers.com.au), EMU Camper Trailers (https://emucampers.com.au) and Didgeridoonas Australia (https://didgeridoonas.com.au).
The team at Moruya met with David and Bronwyn (standing together in the centre of the photo) and Eagle Outdoors Group Operations Manager Tim Drysdale (kneeling beside them) earlier this week. The team in Moruya will be led by Jason Stevens who has been with Ultimate Campers for the past 10 years.
Post by: fc_holden on November 23, 2018, 10:09:10 AM
Post by: wilson79 on November 23, 2018, 10:56:30 AM
Post by: Pottsy on November 23, 2018, 11:18:50 AM
Post by: jw2170 on November 23, 2018, 07:47:12 PM
I have seen a number of companies go into Administration, the Administrators sell the "business", which trades on.
The creditors of the old company may only get 5/10 c/$.....It is based on a "Deed of Company Arrangement" V " Liquidation...
I hope this is not the case here..... :'( :'( :'(
Post by: tryagain on November 23, 2018, 08:25:49 PM
This news may not be a good as indicated.
I have seen a number of companies go into Administration, the Administrators sell the "business", which trades on.
The creditors of the old company may only get 5/10 c/$.....It is based on a "Deed of Company Arrangement" V " Liquidation...
I hope this is not the case here..... :'( :'( :'(
I think it would be pretty much a certainty that the creditors wont get all they are owed, it's generally why the Administrators are called in in the first place as they have become insolvent. As the business wasn't operating at a profit the value of the business is generally pretty low as it's pretty much just the stock, equipment and goodwill that is of value so not much money from that for the creditors.
Post by: alnjan on November 23, 2018, 10:02:48 PM
Post by: jw2170 on November 25, 2018, 11:42:51 AM
I think it would be pretty much a certainty that the creditors wont get all they are owed, it's generally why the Administrators are called in in the first place as they have become insolvent. As the business wasn't operating at a profit the value of the business is generally pretty low as it's pretty much just the stock, equipment and goodwill that is of value so not much money from that for the creditors.
Agreed.....shame.
Post by: KathyL on November 25, 2018, 01:49:42 PM
One good thing to come from it is those that had ordered campers and not completed could still get their unfinished camper. Apart from the fibreglass mould everything thing else to fit out the campers can be sourced elsewhere. The new owners were given access to the Ultimate Forum and the wealth on information there to finish there campers off. So not all bad there.It'd be nice to think that customers who had paid deposits/progress payments will be looked after by the new owners - guess they'll make a decision in relation to that once they know the full extent of the financial situation and what they are actually buying.
I've been told the fibreglass moulds are no longer in the factory although there are some incomplete campers so hopefully moulds can be made from those.
Finally, the new owners will need access to all the design information, specifications and drawings to be able to start manufacturing again - the official forum consists mostly of information contributed by *approved* owners (not everyone who owns an Ultimate was allowed to join/remain a member) and was regularly censored by the forum admins to remove references to products (eg, solar panels, etc), suppliers (eg, other canvas businesses, etc) and service agents (independent businesses that could service/repair Ultimates) Ultimate did not want their customers to know about.
Post by: Bad Scott on November 26, 2018, 06:54:27 AM
It'd be nice to think that customers who had paid deposits/progress payments will be looked after by the new owners - guess they'll make a decision in relation to that once they know the full extent of the financial situation and what they are actually buying.That’s interesting 🤔. You got a source of this information?.
I've been told the fibreglass moulds are no longer in the factory although there are some incomplete campers so hopefully moulds can be made from those.
Finally, the new owners will need access to all the design information, specifications and drawings to be able to start manufacturing again - the official forum consists mostly of information contributed by *approved* owners (not everyone who owns an Ultimate was allowed to join/remain a member) and was regularly censored by the forum admins to remove references to products (eg, solar panels, etc), suppliers (eg, other canvas businesses, etc) and service agents (independent businesses that could service/repair Ultimates) Ultimate did not want their customers to know about.
Facts, no owner has been denied access to the forum nor any warnings issued.
Nothing has been censored by the admins either. Ie, Drifta’s Snow peak is well spoken about and other suppliers
:cheers:
Post by: KathyL on November 26, 2018, 08:53:56 AM
That’s interesting 🤔. You got a source of this information?.Yes - multiple.
Quote
Facts, no owner has been denied access to the forum nor any warnings issued.Not true - I know of two Ultimate camper owners who are not allowed to join the forum and/or who have had their accounts deleted by Ultimate.
Quote
Nothing has been censored by the admins either. Ie, Drifta’s Snow peak is well spoken about and other suppliersAlso not true - a number of my posts have been deleted (I was never told - just noticed they had gone missing), posts made by others have been censored (if you search for the word 'censored' you'll find at least one plus there are quite a few empty posts that have no content because it was deleted by the forum admins) and two posts referring to Ian Goldsmith/3D Sails in Batemans Bay were deleted last week ...
Post by: Moxley on November 26, 2018, 10:20:58 AM
Yes - multiple.
Not true - I know of two Ultimate camper owners who are not allowed to join the forum and/or who have had their accounts deleted by Ultimate.
Also not true - a number of my posts have been deleted (I was never told - just noticed they had gone missing), posts made by others have been censored (if you search for the word 'censored' you'll find at least one plus there are quite a few empty posts that have no content because it was deleted by the forum admins) and two posts referring to Ian Goldsmith/3D Sails in Batemans Bay were deleted last week ...
Well, that is interesting reading.
Post by: Bad Scott on November 26, 2018, 10:48:15 AM
Can you now correct the false information. :cheers:
Post by: McGirr on November 26, 2018, 10:50:55 AM
Mark
Post by: KathyL on November 26, 2018, 10:55:46 AM
KathyL.What false information?
Can you now correct the false information. :cheers:
Post by: Bad Scott on November 26, 2018, 11:15:28 AM
I've been told the fibreglass moulds are no longer in the factory although there are some incomplete campers so hopefully moulds can be made from those.
Not gonna start a war with you.
FACTMoulds never left the factory and are still there.
Check your sources information as it’s incorrect :cheers:
Post by: KathyL on November 26, 2018, 11:35:12 AM
You would not take over a business without going into fine detail about what stock is on hand, tools and machinery, out standing orders etc and why they went into liquidation. Also make sure the original owners sign legal documents that they will not start another business making similar products.Agreed - and given the Eagle Outdoors Group has been around for 40 years I'm sure they'll have thoroughly checked everything out.
Post by: KathyL on November 26, 2018, 11:40:39 AM
Not gonna start a war with you.Ditto ...
Quote
FACTMoulds never left the factory and are still there.Two different and reputable sources - one at Vic Muster and one via private conversation.
Check your sources information as it’s incorrect :cheers:
Post by: Bad Scott on November 26, 2018, 11:52:44 AM
Ditto ...I’ll just get my popcorn
Two different and reputable sources - one at Vic Muster and one via private conversation.
Post by: tryagain on November 26, 2018, 12:11:55 PM
Post by: KathyL on November 26, 2018, 12:42:40 PM
On a change of tact, what's the chances these end up being at least partly offshored, based on the Modcon C3 I would be guessing they could retail them around $25K if they were mass produced in China and they would provide a compelling alternative to the popular forward folds given it's weight advantages. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the direction the new owners end up going given that they already import campers, might just start with a few components from OS and then increase from there, kind of like what happened with Modcon. I just watched the Ultimate campers factory tour and there was quite a few staff there so decent savings could be made if done overseas.That's possible although the new owners have said the campers "will continue to be made in Australia, by Australians, for Australian off-road adventures.” (from newspaper article in Moruya Examiner last week).
Post by: tryagain on November 26, 2018, 01:15:56 PM
That's possible although the new owners have said the campers "will continue to be made in Australia, by Australians, for Australian off-road adventures.” (from newspaper article in Moruya Examiner last week).
That's what I would say too, then get production happening here and start looking at what I could outsource cheaper, but first port of call would be to get the ball rolling again which is much easier to do with those who have done it before. They could outsource up to 49% to china and still claim the "made in Australia" tag AFAIK. As Modcon seem to have experienced, the majority of people will go for a small reduction in quality for a substantial reduction in price as I have read they only import now.
Post by: KathyL on November 27, 2018, 08:16:38 AM
Well, that is interesting reading.Posted information in reply to a request for information about an awning for a 20 year old camper (in my reply I mentioned the name of a canvas business in Batemans Bay) at 0847 this morning and my post was deleted by 0912 ...
Post by: trinityalyce on December 01, 2018, 09:07:05 AM
Posted information in reply to a request for information about an awning for a 20 year old camper (in my reply I mentioned the name of a canvas business in Batemans Bay) at 0847 this morning and my post was deleted by 0912 ...
Can you blame a business for protecting their interests on a forum they own?
Ultimate own the forum - past owners and now present owners of the company. If you’re recommending a business 30 minutes up the road from the Ultimate factory it very well might be seen as taking money out of Ultimate’s pockets in a time they could really do with support.
I think it is key to keep in mind they own that forum. So naturally they would prefer that advice given there doesn’t direct owners to other businesses for work they could be doing. When they own the forum they have every right to keep content in line with their business interests.
Post by: roamer on December 01, 2018, 07:13:41 PM
which is sort of fair enough, but at least they could have answered the owners request for help with some sort of reply
Post by: KathyL on December 01, 2018, 08:07:56 PM
Can you blame a business for protecting their interests on a forum they own?Not at all - my issue is with the fact that posts which do *not* violate their forum rules are deleted without any warning/notification and this also includes posts that discuss alternate products (eg, solar panels, rear view cameras, etc).
I first started creating/managing forums more than 10 years ago and, with the exception of duplicate posts and/or posts that clearly violate forum rules, I have always contacted the author of a post that is considered problematic to explain the issue and ask them to amend their post. Fortunately, and with the exception of forum members who are hell-bent on expressing a particular point of view or being difficult, my experience of dealing with issues in this manner has been that forum members respond cooperatively and positively.
... but at least they could have answered the owners request for help with some sort of replyAgreed - posts are removed without any alternatives being offered ...
Post by: tombie on December 03, 2018, 04:08:03 PM
<snip> and with the exception of forum members who are hell-bent on expressing a particular point of view or being difficult,</snip>
Let it go... move on...
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Post by: weeds on December 03, 2018, 06:29:14 PM
I first started creating/managing forums more than 10 years ago
You could always start your on forum, maybe member will jump ship.
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Post by: KathyL on December 03, 2018, 07:39:28 PM
And you are doing exactly the same as this....Touché ...
Quote
Let it go... move on...Done!
Post by: Bad Scott on December 03, 2018, 08:08:35 PM
And you are doing exactly the same as this....:cup: :cup: Exactly
Let it go... move on...
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You could always start your on forum, maybe member will jump ship.:cup: :cup: :cup: :cup: :cup:
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Send the negativity elsewhere :D