Author Topic: Power and gas is to expensive.  (Read 199695 times)

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Offline gronk

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #575 on: January 26, 2019, 07:52:40 AM »
Yep.

Wind turbines usually don't spin on hot days 'cos there's either too much wind, or not enough.....

 :cheers:

So we get a hot windless day, overcast , and the greenies have closed all our power stations........??

How big was that Tesla battery again ??  :'(
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Offline Pete79

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Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #576 on: January 26, 2019, 07:54:39 AM »
You have.....but my "general" comment was just that.
In high temps, going by that essay on reduced efficiency , all they do is increase the output of the power station, as they generally never run at full steam.......unless you can find another essay that says otherwise.....
We’ll have to save that one for another insomnia night.

But you could be right.
If they don’t run plants at full capacity to give them a safety buffer in good times.
Then if they ramp them right up and max them out when they’re running inefficiently in the heat, that would perfectly explain why they fail so much in heat waves...


Edit;
I noticed in my studies last night that one of the coal fired power stations that failed in VIC yesterday, has consistently failed in several previous heat events. It was the second time this year that plant fell over.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2019, 07:58:19 AM by Pete79 »

Offline Pottsy

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #577 on: January 26, 2019, 10:52:25 AM »
So we get a hot windless day, overcast , and the greenies have closed all our power stations........??

How big was that Tesla battery again ??  :'(

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Offline Fizzie

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #578 on: January 26, 2019, 10:57:14 AM »
In high temps, going by that essay on reduced efficiency , all they do is increase the output of the power station, as they generally never run at full steam.......unless you can find another essay that says otherwise..... ;D ;D

They try to avoid it, but from Whirlpool at 4.50pm Thursday

"Well hats off to the team at TIPS (Torrens Island Power Station) – 1,245MW output out of 1,320MW. Doing damn well IMO."

It's even better – the actual plant capacity is 1280 MW not 1320 :-)

The "A" station units have hit 100% of their original (1967) rated capacity by the way. :o

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Offline Fizzie

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #579 on: January 26, 2019, 11:01:58 AM »
Besides it’s those Mexicans that should be hot under the collars right now, us Queenslanders are living in the goldy locks zone at the moment.

& over these last couple of days, it's been excess generation from Qld that has pretty well kept NSW & Vic from collapsing altogether 8)

Reckon they should throw the State of Origin to say thanks :-*
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Offline Fizzie

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #580 on: January 26, 2019, 11:16:35 AM »
Got to wonder then why Playford at Pt Augusta which was commissioned in 1985 was decommissioned in past few years and demolished.

This, together with Northern & Hazlewood, were all closed because their foreign ::) owners (partially / mainly Govts of France, China & Singapore >:() decided that they were no longer profitable enough to keep operating >:(

Keep supplying power to the people of Australia ??? Nah, don't give two stuffs about that, we're only interested in maximum $ for minimum expenditure >:(

Build more coal power stations,

No one is going to put up that kind of investment, when the future for coal fired power stations looks uncertain over the next 10 years

No, so if anybody wants to build one, it will have to be funded by Oz Govt, either State or Federal.

& you can see it now, 10 years in advance ...

The Laberal Party decides to fund & build a new $3 billion power station. They get thrown out at the next election & the first thing the incoming Libeur Party does is announce that they always opposed wasting so much money on an already obsolete, unneeded (because we haven't had a blackout in the last 6 months ::) white elephant, so they're going to sell it to private enterprise to operate. Guess who buys it ??? Then 30 years further down the track, when it's approaching needed mid-life maintenance upgrades, what happens ??? >:( :'(

Power supply should never have been tendered out to private enterprise, who's only interest is $ ::)
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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #581 on: January 26, 2019, 12:07:45 PM »
Quote from: Fizzie
No, so if anybody wants to build one, it will have to be funded by Oz Govt, either State or Federal.

& you can see it now, 10 years in advance ...

The Laberal Party decides to fund & build a new $3 billion power station. They get thrown out at the next election & the first thing the incoming Libeur Party does is announce that they always opposed wasting so much money on an already obsolete, unneeded (because we haven't had a blackout in the last 6 months ::) white elephant, so they're going to sell it to private enterprise to operate. Guess who buys it ??? Then 30 years further down the track, when it's approaching needed mid-life maintenance upgrades, what happens ??? >:( :'(

Power supply should never have been tendered out to private enterprise, who's only interest is $ ::)
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Offline GeoffA

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #582 on: January 26, 2019, 12:53:03 PM »
This, together with Northern & Hazlewood, were all closed because their foreign ::) owners (partially / mainly Govts of France, China & Singapore >:() decided that they were no longer profitable enough to keep operating >:(

Keep supplying power to the people of Australia ??? Nah, don't give two stuffs about that, we're only interested in maximum $ for minimum expenditure >:(......

Hazelwood's fate was sealed when Red Dan tripled the excise on brown coal.....
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Offline Pottsy

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #583 on: January 26, 2019, 01:29:49 PM »
Hazelwood's fate was sealed when Red Dan tripled the excise on brown coal.....

As was Northern when the Weatherill govt decided on going down the renewables road in SA.
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Offline gronk

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #584 on: January 26, 2019, 06:54:22 PM »


Power supply should never have been tendered out to private enterprise, who's only interest is $ ::)

Even the average joe blow in the street could see that....BUT, for short term profit, the pollies look good when they can bank roll a project, then what have you got left....a privately owned company holding you to ransom !!

1st it was coal mines, then the power stations, then the roads, then the hospitals, then the aged care.....do we own anything anymore ??
Us dumb "normal" people can see what was going on....why is it so hard for the pollies to understand ??????
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Offline austastar

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #585 on: January 26, 2019, 07:29:15 PM »
Hi,
   Is it that the can see their pension at the end of the tunnel?
Cheers

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Offline tryagain

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #587 on: January 26, 2019, 09:39:11 PM »
I don't think state owned power really helps https://www.afr.com/news/politics/stateowned-power-companies-entrench-high-prices-says-australian-energy-regulator-20170718-gxdd1z
so if it aint Gov co owned, and private has proved to be a flop... who should run it ???
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Offline tryagain

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #588 on: January 26, 2019, 11:10:44 PM »
so if it aint Gov co owned, and private has proved to be a flop... who should run it ???

Without giving it to much thought I'd say privately run with the right policy requirements in place.
I think the situation we find ourselves in with power issues probably has many causes, but if I were to point the finger, it would be at the previous SA Gov and the current Vic one for speeding up the demise of coal fired power plant when renewables + storage aren't yet economically viable alternatives.

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #589 on: January 27, 2019, 05:15:00 AM »
Without giving it to much thought I'd say privately run with the right policy requirements in place.
I think the situation we find ourselves in with power issues probably has many causes, but if I were to point the finger, it would be at the previous SA Gov and the current Vic one for speeding up the demise of coal fired power plant when renewables + storage aren't yet economically viable alternatives. being idiots.....

Fixed it for ya ..... ;D
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Offline tryagain

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #591 on: January 27, 2019, 03:10:43 PM »
https://www.theage.com.au/world/europe/german-plan-to-phase-out-coal-would-cost-a-cool-64-billion-20190127-p50tx5.html

If you could come up with a design to cheaply store power with minimal environmental impact and patent it you could become a billionaire overnight.

Offline Fizzie

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #592 on: January 28, 2019, 09:28:52 AM »
https://www.theage.com.au/world/europe/german-plan-to-phase-out-coal-would-cost-a-cool-64-billion-20190127-p50tx5.html

"each of the interest groups had accepted concessions with an eye to achieving a result."

Ahh, well, that wipes out any chance of anything similar ever happening in Australia >:D
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Offline moeite

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #593 on: January 28, 2019, 11:31:59 AM »
Hazelwood's fate was sealed when Red Dan tripled the excise on brown coal.....

Nope. The reason Hazelwood closed is that to bring it up to REQUIRED minimum safety standards would cost Engie between $400m and $1b dollars. Engie said at the time that if they could get all the coal for nothing it would STILL not be a viable proposition.
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Offline GeoffA

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #594 on: January 28, 2019, 12:15:50 PM »
Nope. The reason Hazelwood closed is that to bring it up to REQUIRED minimum safety standards would cost Engie between $400m and $1b dollars. Engie said at the time that if they could get all the coal for nothing it would STILL not be a viable proposition.

Who imposed the "REQUIRED minimum safety standards"?

Did it comply with the standards of the day when they bought it?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 12:17:44 PM by GeoffA »
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Offline moeite

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #595 on: January 28, 2019, 12:44:33 PM »
Who imposed the "REQUIRED minimum safety standards"?

Worksafe Victoria
Quote
Did it comply with the standards of the day when they bought it?

Yes - only just though. They only did the bare minimum maintenance. Worksafe went through the place and found a heap of corrosion, cracked welds, etc. and required Engie to complete major repairs to five of the eight units. To do the work the five units would need to be offline for in excess of three months. That loss of generating capacity for that period was NOT factored into the cost of the required work.
When Engie purchased Hazelwood even Blind Freddie could've seen that it was an ageing plant that would need MAJOR work in the not too distant future.
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Offline DrewXT

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #596 on: January 28, 2019, 01:51:54 PM »
Some sense at last.
Three strategically placed "clean" reactors would fix the entire country's baseload issue, and mean that our coal fired generators could be used to service peak load times.

I find it amusing that both sides of government touts solar and wind as a solution, yet one is useless in the dark, and the other when it's not windy.

My wife and I have been looking to import a really aesthically pleasing wind turbine from Europe, but the paperwork to even start discussions, OMFG...

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #597 on: January 28, 2019, 01:55:41 PM »
Yes - only just though. They only did the bare minimum maintenance....

I was involved in the PLE that was done in the late '80's. It was old then....

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Offline tryagain

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #598 on: January 28, 2019, 02:05:42 PM »
Three strategically placed "clean" reactors would fix the entire country's baseload issue, and mean that our coal fired generators could be used to service peak load times.

I find it amusing that both sides of government touts solar and wind as a solution, yet one is useless in the dark, and the other when it's not windy.

My wife and I have been looking to import a really aesthically pleasing wind turbine from Europe, but the paperwork to even start discussions, OMFG...

The issue is modern "clean" coal-fired power plants aren't as cheap as an old one that's still operating. Solar and wind have dropped dramatically in price and are cheaper than new coal-fired power plants, the issue is that as you point out they are intermittent. Power storage is likely to drop in price a whole lot in the near future which will likely see solar and wind plus storage being cheaper than a new "clean" Coal-fired power plant so they now have to sell cheaper to compete, and the ROI just isn't there resulting in a loss for whoever builds it. 

And the issue of using Coal-fired power plants intermittently is they are a bit like a freight train, good when they are running but take a lot of time and effort to get started and then stop again.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 02:08:26 PM by tryagain »

Offline DrewXT

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #599 on: January 28, 2019, 05:36:02 PM »
The issue is modern "clean" coal-fired power plants aren't as cheap as an old one that's still operating. Solar and wind have dropped dramatically in price and are cheaper than new coal-fired power plants, the issue is that as you point out they are intermittent. Power storage is likely to drop in price a whole lot in the near future which will likely see solar and wind plus storage being cheaper than a new "clean" Coal-fired power plant so they now have to sell cheaper to compete, and the ROI just isn't there resulting in a loss for whoever builds it. 

And the issue of using Coal-fired power plants intermittently is they are a bit like a freight train, good when they are running but take a lot of time and effort to get started and then stop again.
I meant clean nukes, not coal fired... Rather than lease our uranium and bring it back to have to dispose of it from dirty reactors, we could build cleaner reactors than those we lease to, and dispose of what we use ourselves

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