Glenn mcgrath shooting.....shock horror

[jetcrew]

FFS you guys criticizing it.  Look up the stats on how many animals are in countries in Africa that have banned hunting, compared to those that promote it, you will be surprised.

If it wasn't for hunting, NONE of us would be here today. It is a necessary and does more to help the environment and native wildlife(in this country) than you realise.

Why some people put more value on one animal or another is ridiculous.  If it was hunted legally it was for a reason, they also utilise the meat over there from probably 95% of the animals, if not more.

No wonder society these days is the way it is, rooted!

wow ..take chill pill mate ..comments like yours only serve to have these threads closed ..More than happy to hear your side/interpretation/beliefs on the matter and it is equally as valid as mine but maybe the delivery needs to be adjusted..  just a bit 

I will look past the tone and respond to the content, as I am sure it is the content that is more important to the discussion,

you may well be spot on in regards to countries managing their animal levels and doing it well etc, However this issue is not about the management practices or legality of the issue..its centred squarely against public perception, and perception weather right or wrong can equal fact.

If the picture was of him smoking pot in Amsterdam..equally as legal ..it would bring with it a level of criticism

He is a public figure who has courted the media through his very profitable career so he must know that even though it may be legal the consensus of many people may be that it is unacceptable from a high profile Australian. 

In relation to putting more value on one animal over another , I guess that just comes down to individual perceptions and beliefs, I value the lives of some animals over some humans and would happily see plenty of people be traded for the lives of some our endangered species. But that's just me..

This is not a debate about about legality ..because the facts support the case that he was entitled and lawfully authorised to do what he did. So no hiding that fact. 

Its debate about public perception and expectation.. and I am sure as his agent is advising him right now, he will try and play both sides of the coin ..as is evident by his very wishy washy statement.

You think his actions were fine ..then all good thats your right , I think he is weak as , 1 for doing it ..but 2 not for either backing his decision or making a full retarction and apology..you cant have it both ways...

Your response was prob a better starting point for his statement than his was ..If all the things you have mentioned are the facts of the situation, then he should just be transparent about the company he hunted with, their practices, what the meat was used for , how the animal was selected , why this particular animal was selected etc etc, coming out with a "hard time in my life " comment is just weak.

I for one would be happy to reconsider my point of view on the action undertaken if evidence to support the case is provided.. until then its just weak as.

The response will always remain very weak but the actions may be better explained with some of your evidence.

Jet

Sorry also add that dingoes comments on prev page are also very valid points that could be used to give clarity around the actions.. you guys should offer to help his agent as they are doing a pretty poor job of managing the public's perception of the issue right now.


Jet

[moose2367]

Morally I am against hunting elephants and other native animals to a country. Ferals ye ha go to town.

Why?

You do realise that we are in the minority of countries that don't hunt our native animals.  USA, Canada Africa where hunting is huge and sustainable, they hunt native animals, as well as introduced species.

That elephant may well have been old and not able to breed anymore, injured, or an animal causing trouble around a village.  They aren't hunted regularly and it is strictly controlled. 

If the animals in Africa weren't of any value, bringing money into the country via hunting, then they would all be shot so the farmers could run cattle to make money.  That is why it is a much needed and viable industry.

[Ratbag]

About the only animal in plague proportions on this planet now is us humans.

None of these left of left people seem to have ever heard of contraception ... Next time I see a "greenie" with more than 2 kids at foot, I will applaud.

It took until about 1900 for the world's human population to reach 1 billion.
In my pre-teenage years, it reached about 2 billion.
By the late 1970s it reached close to 3 billion.
It is now around 7.3 billion.

People who live in the "first world" countries use and consume roughly 35 times each what individuals in the third world use and consume ...

About 650 million people in India have no access to any sanitary facilities of any description. All of India's holy rivers are so polluted that it would kill most westerners who even bathed in them.

As a young person I shot a lot of foxes, goats and roos (roos get into plague proportions in western Queensland due to their breeding mechanism and the availability of year round food and water ... ). These days, and for many years, I cannot see the "sport" in gratuitously killing another living creature. And no, I'm not a vegan. For medical reasons, I have to eat a high protein diet.

{Sorry, folks - End of rant ... }

[jetcrew]

Why?

You do realise that we are in the minority of countries that don't hunt our native animals.  USA, Canada Africa where hunting is huge and sustainable, they hunt native animals, as well as introduced species.

That elephant may well have been old and not able to breed anymore, injured, or an animal causing trouble around a village.  They aren't hunted regularly and it is strictly controlled. 

If the animals in Africa weren't of any value, bringing money into the country via hunting, then they would all be shot so the farmers could run cattle to make money.  That is why it is a much needed and viable industry.

More solid points to be explored as a justification for the action .

Yes the media beats these things up but from I am reading here even both sides of the debate have valid reasons, those in the PRO camp have some very valid and important points that if better explored and publisied may well swing a vast majority of people towarsd that thought process. But the public needs facts these days or thier perception will rule.

If managed properly  he could be painted as a national hero for uthanising a poor old elephant that was riddled with pain each day and unable to live .. and the locals kept alive in the hope someone would pay money to shoot it.. Glen offered to pay the money and had to shoot it himself as was custom for the payer who becomes the owner to shoot it.. Most aust know a story of uncle XYZ having to shoot the old cattle dog who was injured or dying ..its Australian folk law and something most Aussie would do in a heart beat.

so facts must be provided and logical arguments put forward or the public will just be lead by the voice of a few and this is always the 5%ers ..5% of hunters are fools and shoot anything that moves the other 95% think like people on here and provide logical reasons for animal management. 5% of do gooders run the argument .. the rest of us just want the facts

Jet

[baldheadedgit]

And the facts are... He shot an Elephant... Big deal.... have another beer and get over it,,,

[jetcrew]

And the facts are... He shot an Elephant... Big deal.... have another beer and get over it,,,

I cant believe you put your beer down to add that enlightening piece of information to the thread.. its really helped as I was left wondering what it was he shot.. your ahead of the curve for sure...

Jet

[baldheadedgit]

well someone has to say something intelligent, looks like you keep throwing petrol on the bloody thing to me.!

[jetcrew]

well someone has to say something intelligent, looks like you keep throwing petrol on the bloody thing to me.!

its commonly referred to as a discussion mate

I am so happy  you found the time to contribute , it certainly added some valuable points to the disscusion

jet

[Swannie]

Shooting legally has a place & always will. I hold a gun licence yet only enjoy clay targets(not really into killing things), but all my mates hunt on a weekly basis and do so legally.

I wouldn't shoot an elephant but each to themselves, everyone these days seems to worry about stuff that they have no influence or control over.

Swannie

[achjimmy]

Why?

You do realise that we are in the minority of countries that don't hunt our native animals.  USA, Canada Africa where hunting is huge and sustainable, they hunt native animals, as well as introduced species.

That elephant may well have been old and not able to breed anymore, injured, or an animal causing trouble around a village.  They aren't hunted regularly and it is strictly controlled. 

If the animals in Africa weren't of any value, bringing money into the country via hunting, then they would all be shot so the farmers could run cattle to make money.  That is why it is a much needed and viable industry.

moose I said morally, that's me. I accept that we poorly manage our wildlife and that includes natives. I have seen the way it is managed in the US and it's well done for the most part. I hunt ferals and that's it I realize there needs to be Roo culls and probably other species but I don't want to be part of it.

[gordo350]

The main problem is that he went to Zimbabwe.  Hunting is sanctioned by a despot dictator and managed by a very corrupt agency. To say it's legal is a long stretch.   The animals in Zimbabwe are almost decimated.  The local villages are not allowed to hunt in fear of death because the management sell the animals to the highest bidder. I don't care if is McGrath or bob catter or the millionaire texan, anialation of any species for pleasure is just not right. I'm sure all you " I hunt I vote " mob will disagree but if you kill something just because it makes you smile you have got some serious mental illness.  If you really want a trophy, take a picture

[RebsWA]

Mmm... thought this was a forum for like minded camper trailer enthusiasts.
Seems anything but nowadays.
I hope a "verdict" is rapidly forthcoming to finalise this thread.

[Banjo16]

Mmm... thought this was a forum for like minded camper trailer enthusiasts.
Seems anything but nowadays.
I hope a "verdict" is rapidly forthcoming to finalise this thread.

My thoughts exactly.

[graham]

As Moose has posted , the animals hunted are on a list , as to which they are too old , too many , or shouldn't even be there , and the guides know what is what , but it is a user pays , and the animal in question is going to be culled anyway , so win /win for the people around the area
We don't live in the area , i do believe they call it sustainable practice
Me, I think good on him, would I do it , probably not , but his choice
By the way I am a licensed shooter , and I pay for the privilege to hunt , legally and it's not cheap , but then again what is
Cheers

[graham]

Jet I have just read this thread completely all the way through, after posting  and it's enlightening , if Glenn had of shot a cow in India , would he be eligible for cricket commentary over there, or here
I can understand the arguments , but it's a legal practice within that country

[macca]

Glenn McGrath, Brett Lee, what about Roy, Matty Hayden. There was a lot  of shooters around in those days
This rant could go on for ever

[achjimmy]

Glenn McGrath, Brett Lee, what about Roy, Matty Hayden. There was a lot  of shooters around in those days
This rant could go on for ever

Yep and Roy was a huge fisherman. Wait until the Bambi brigade get into the photos of roy with a Barra

[achjimmy]

The main problem is that he went to Zimbabwe.  Hunting is sanctioned by a despot dictator and managed by a very corrupt agency. To say it's legal is a long stretch.   The animals in Zimbabwe are almost decimated.  The local villages are not allowed to hunt in fear of death because the management sell the animals to the highest bidder. I don't care if is McGrath or bob catter or the millionaire texan, anialation of any species for pleasure is just not right. I'm sure all you " I hunt I vote " mob will disagree but if you kill something just because it makes you smile you have got some serious mental illness.  If you really want a trophy, take a picture

Yep I got the illness, I am quite please when I can nail a rabbit, fox or pig.

[Homer_Jay]

After reading this thread today, I rang the mate up to organise a hunt next weekend.

Can't wait to get away. Only one thing better than camping, and that's going camping with a few rifles for a hunt!

[rotare]

I'm not going to pass comments on some of the finer points of this discussion - leave it up to you fellas to debate.

But for me what I questioned is this -  if someone shot a mouse from 100m I reckon that would be a pretty good achievement and something to brag about, but what skill is really involved in shooting an elephant at close range?  It would be pretty hard to miss such a big animal, wouldn't it?

I'm no hunter of course, but maybe someone can clarify what exactly is the skill involved in such a kill?

[Mace]

if someone shot a mouse from 100m I reckon that would be a pretty good achievement and something to brag about, but what skill is really involved in shooting an elephant at close range?  It would be pretty hard to miss such a big animal, wouldn't it?

I'm no hunter of course, but maybe someone can clarify what exactly is the skill involved in such a kill?

Anyone can shoot at an elephant and hit it.  If you don't kill it you end up with one very angry wounded animal, which is what ethical hunters detest. To kill it humanely you need to be close enough to be able to hit its brain, so taking a shot from 100m out plus is not an option.  You need to get in pretty close and put your life at risk. You also need to use a very large calibre weapon with a high muzzle velocity.  600 and 700 Nitro Express are preferred rounds.  They are called elephant guns. You could also use something like a 458 Winmag which are one of the more common large calibres.  These arnt weapons for the novice hunter.

[rotare]

Anyone can shoot at an elephant and hit it.  If you don't kill it you end up with one very angry wounded animal, which is what ethical hunters detest. To kill it humanely you need to be close enough to be able to hit its brain, so taking a shot from 100m out plus is not an option.  You need to get in pretty close and put your life at risk. You also need to use a very large calibre weapon with a high muzzle velocity.  600 and 700 Nitro Express are preferred rounds.  They are called elephant guns. You could also use something like a 458 Winmag which are one of the more common large calibres.  These arnt weapons for the novice hunter.

So on that basis to be a hunter of elephants you need to be either a crack shot, or a fast runner?

[terravista]

Glenn McGrath has admitted he was going through "A Lot" after the loss of his wife.
For those that don't know much about losing someone to a disease like cancer here is some reading for you:

Here is the grief model we call the 7 Stages of Grief: Glenn has been criticised for level 4. Keep in mind that 6 out of 7 is a pretty good result in most places.

1. SHOCK & DENIAL-
You will probably react to learning of the loss with numbed disbelief. You may deny the reality of the loss at some level, in order to avoid the pain. Shock provides emotional protection from being overwhelmed all at once. This may last for weeks.
2. PAIN & GUILT-
As the shock wears off, it is replaced with the suffering of unbelievable pain. Although excruciating and almost unbearable, it is important that you experience the pain fully, and not hide it, avoid it or escape from it with alcohol or drugs.
You may have guilty feelings or remorse over things you did or didn't do with your loved one. Life feels chaotic and scary during this phase.
3. ANGER & BARGAINING-
Frustration gives way to anger, and you may lash out and lay unwarranted blame for the death on someone else. Please try to control this, as permanent damage to your relationships may result. This is a time for the release of bottled up emotion.
You may rail against fate, questioning "Why me?" You may also try to bargain in vain with the powers that be for a way out of your despair ("I will never drink again if you just bring him back")
4. "DEPRESSION", REFLECTION, LONELINESS AND KILLING SOMETHING IN AFRICA"-
Just when your friends may think you should be getting on with your life, a long period of sad reflection will likely overtake you. This is a normal stage of grief, so do not be "talked out of it" by well-meaning outsiders.
You may decide to travel to Africa and shoot a relatively harmless animal like an elephant. This will make you feel like a man for a few years until some mindless moron puts it on Facebook. Then when you feel like you have you apologise, pull up your big boy pants and tell the media to shove it.
Encouragement from others is not helpful to you during this stage of grieving.
During this time, you finally realize the true magnitude of your loss, and it depresses you. You may isolate yourself on purpose, reflect on things you did with your lost one, and focus on memories of the past. You may sense feelings of emptiness or despair. Just sit back, drink scotch and smoke cigars, then stub the cigar butts out in the elephant foot ashtray. Except for your umbrella stand, ashtray and gun rack made from the tusks, all you have left is memories and the desire to wear pink.
5. THE UPWARD TURN-
As you start to adjust to life without your dear one, your life becomes a little calmer and more organized. Your physical symptoms lessen, and your "depression" begins to lift slightly.
6. RECONSTRUCTION & WORKING THROUGH-
As you become more functional, your mind starts working again, and you will find yourself seeking realistic solutions to problems posed by life without your loved one. You will start to work on practical and financial problems and reconstructing yourself and your life without him or her.
7. ACCEPTANCE & HOPE-
During this, the last of the seven stages in this grief model, you learn to accept and deal with the reality of your situation. Acceptance does not necessarily mean instant happiness. Given the pain and turmoil you have experienced, you can never return to the carefree, untroubled YOU that existed before this tragedy. But you will find a way forward.
You will start to look forward and actually plan things for the future. Eventually, you will be able to think about your lost loved one without pain; sadness, yes, but the wrenching pain will be gone. You will once again anticipate some good times to come, and yes, even find joy again in the experience of living.

[Mace]

So on that basis to be a hunter of elephants you need to be either a crack shot, or a fast runner?

The people from the sub-continent (India and Sri Lanka, not Africa) that have shot elephant that  I know and have hunted here with are definitely not fast runners!

The culture is different there, 60 people a year are killed by rogue elephant in sri lanka.  These elephants are usually older males that can travel large distances in a night, 30 or 40 km in search of easy food. In a natural system they would die from malnutrition, but now they have access to planted crops. Farmers want to protect their crops and die in the process.

Now the average Sri Lankan, or Indian  doesn't have access to firearms.  Its the police, or army that have them, but even then often not big enough to deal with the "problem" at hand. Quite often, the police and army don't even have the fuel for vehicles to go out to patrol and protect locals  from wildlife, or often  even a working vehicle. Most of the Money paid by expats and others in these circumstances filters down into the local community, even if by indirect means.

I cant speak on what happens in Africa  but they have some good long distance runners there.

[woftam]

Mouse   
Height      7.5 – 10 cm, tail 5-10 cm
Weight       10-25g
Reach      5 cm   
Speed      13 Km/h
Eyesight           excellent
Smell      excellent
Hearing            excellent
Intelligence    does well in mazes, not much else
Defences            size or rather lack thereof, speed
Calibre           air rifle and above
Best approach   doesn’t matter
Threat assessment    virtually non-existant
No skill factor - you shoot mouse from 10m using shotgun more than one shot
Low skill Factor – you shoot mouse from 25m using shot gun one shot      
Moderate skill Factor – you shoot mouse from 75m using .22 rimfire  benchrest one shot
High skill factor – you shoot mouse from 100m standing unsupported using air rifle one shot
Kudos – you shot a mouse, so what


Elephant
Height      3 – 4 metres
Weight      4,000 – 7,000 Kg
Reach      Ground level to 7m
              3.5m in front
Speed      18 kmh

Eyesight           poor in bright light, better in low light
Smell      excellent
Hearing      excellent
Intelligence   cetacean level
Defences           size, speed, weight,
              Trunk can lift 350 kg
Calibre           Legal minimum .375
Best approach   down wind, open savannah, better than legal minimum calibre, with back-up
Threat          high to extremely high. Goes to extremely high if your first shot just pisses    him off, it’s dusk, you’re downwind, you’re in broken ground and have no back-up

No skill Factor – you shoot sick elephant from 100m from vehicle using elephant gun benchrest with back-up more than one shot
Low skill Factor – you shoot well elephant from 100m from vehicle using elephant gun benchrest with back-up  one shot
Moderate skill Factor – you shoot well elephant from 50m on foot using .600 Nitro Express with back-up one shot
High skill factor – you brain shoot well elephant from 30m on foot using .275 Rigby one shot

Kudos – you shot an elephant - now the fun begins
                        You take a picture and post it on facebook
                        You achieve instant notoriety
                        The twitsphere goes into meltdown as all those holding different views on
                        animal rights/hunting/ethics/conservation put forward their own personal it’s
                        only logical/moral/ethical/unarguable two cents worth
                        You retreat for peace into your usual sanctum – a quiet corner of the 'net
                        where a forum dedicated to your hobby (other than shooting) exists
                        Shock, horror debate rages even there. In desperation you turn to your one
                        true friend – your mum. As usual she gives you sage advice – F*** it son, it’s
                        only social media, give it 24 hours, 48 max, and they’ll be all over something
                        else