MySwag.org The Off-road Camper Trailer Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Wortho on January 20, 2013, 08:31:23 PM
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http://www.theherald.com.au/story/1244464/protest-over-off-road-ban/?cs=316 (http://www.theherald.com.au/story/1244464/protest-over-off-road-ban/?cs=316)
HUNDREDS of camping and four-wheel-driving enthusiasts will join a protest next month against their ongoing exclusion from the Stockton sand dunes.
The National Parks and Wildlife Service has banned camping on Stockton beach since June, after storms stripped millions of tonnes of sand from the dunes.
Four-wheel-drive vehicles and fishermen can still access the beachfront area, but the dunes are off-limits.
Brendan Seymour, the editor of 4WD Action magazine, said the move to ban campers highlighted a "two-tiered" approach to national parks.
"It's a bit rough to allow tour operators up onto the dunes, but at the same time say that the average Aussie family can't throw up a tent and camp the night," he said.
Mr Seymour said many people were worried they could be permanently locked out of Stockton beach.
John "Roothy" Rooth from the magazine posted a video about the protest to his Facebook page this week.
The video has already received more than 1600 shares and 300 responses, including many who said they will attend.
"Most of us are greenies too, but unlike the minorities lobbying governments, we just want to go bush and be part of it rather than being forced to peek over a fence," he said.
The rally will begin at the Pitt Street Reserve at Stockton on February 2.
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Hopefully this has some success. Stockton is a great place
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A worthy cause.
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A worthy cause.
It is, but I bet a few yellow canaries are handed out to those that attend
GG
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As much as i dont want to see it closed ,
i am sick of seeing crap being left on the beach. >:(
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so its closed due to storm damage, so lets protest against that
??? ??? ???
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so its closed due to storm damage, so lets protest against that
??? ??? ???
you missed the point Lost. thats the excuse they are giving for its closure. the camping area WAS NOT effected by the storms. its just another excuse National Sparks & Wildfires to close it down for good.
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Whilst I am sure that campers are responsible for some of
The rubbish left on the beach, the sea delivers a fair bit of it as well. I've been on the beach after the two biggest storms in the last dozen years and have seen what washes up. The rubbish is more of a problem down near the beach. The dunes which have been closed are usually fairly free of rubbish.
I am sure that 4wd clubs and groups would happily contribute to an annual beach clean up.
There. Is no legitimate excuse to close the dunes to driving and camping and we have been deprived of a great playground. Also, being dunes and continually moving, 4wding seems to have little to no impact on them.
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Whilst I am sure that campers are responsible for some of
The rubbish left on the beach, the sea delivers a fair bit of it as well. I've been on the beach after the two biggest storms in the last dozen years and have seen what washes up. The rubbish is more of a problem down near the beach. The dunes which have been closed are usually fairly free of rubbish.
I am sure that 4wd clubs and groups would happily contribute to an annual beach clean up.
There. Is no legitimate excuse to close the dunes to driving and camping and we have been deprived of a great playground. Also, being dunes and continually moving, 4wding seems to have little to no impact on them.
Well said. They do have an annual cleanup on Stockton. Maybe they need more than one.
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Well said. They do have an annual cleanup on Stockton. Maybe they need more than one.
I think he is saying they shouldn't need more than one.
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I have to disagree :-) there is stuff that does get dumped on the beach by the surf and then there's the rubbish which is mostly beer bottles and food papers that is left behind by idiots that have no respect .every time I go on the beach and that's often I am disgusted at what these idiots leave behind .I want camping access and dune access as much as the next bloke But it's dosnt surprise me that the NP, s arnt happy with the state of the beach .....
I'm not either
To close the dunes because of rubbish I think is a crock of sh it .... 99% of the rubbish I see is on the beach and not on the dunes ....
Craig
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Craig, there is no doubt that what you say is correct, but why stop everyone using the space because of a few knobs. It doesn't matter that you don't like it, because now you can't use it to be disgusted.
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Craig, there is no doubt that what you say is correct, but why stop everyone using the space because of a few knobs. It doesn't matter that you don't like it, because now you can't use it to be disgusted.
Agree totally, instead of NPWS continuing their conservation via exclusion campaign why don't they be proactive. If rubbish is their major concern why not install easy to access bins and a recycling centre for the bottles and cans. Why not police the rubbish and issues associated with unsocial campers instead of just a blanket exclusion? Why not regularly send rangers or field officers along the beach to clean up the rubbish left by idiots? Why not get the coppers to enforce other rules that apply.
Why do you pay for a permit? What facilities are provided with the revenue raised? What services do you get from NPWS for the money you pay? What about your tax money that provides the core funding for these departments?
Seriously the NPWS needs to f$&k up and be proactive in the management of these areas and work with user groups instead of putting gates up because its cheap and easy. The more sets of eyes out there the less the knobs will get away with.
Jas
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Stockton beach has had a clean up day for many years now and it's the 4WD clubs that carry out the work (same people they are now locking out).
I've taken part in it and also cart at least two sacks of other peoples beer bottles off the beach after every camping trip. Some of which are 20 years old as the yobbo's just bury them and they resurface during storms etc.
http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/jointmanagement/stocktonbeachcleanup.htm (http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/jointmanagement/stocktonbeachcleanup.htm)
I agree with the previous comments that the NPWS should manage the littering issue rather than just shut the access down for everyone.
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As far as i can see its not closed because of rubbish more like sand degradation from previous storms and the new sand is still unstable, see latest update
http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/NationalParks/parkFireClosure.aspx?id=N1111 (http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/NationalParks/parkFireClosure.aspx?id=N1111)
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Even before the storms came the NPWS made it clear that they wanted to introduce controlled camping areas and charge fee's for camping.
http://www.4wdaction.com.au/articles/2012/npws-push-camping-fees-stockton (http://www.4wdaction.com.au/articles/2012/npws-push-camping-fees-stockton)
The storms just gave them the excuse they were looking for to shut the camping down and restrict access, next thing you will see is small designated camping area's with bollards driven deep into the ground to ensure you don't breach the boundaries. They just can't except the current arrangement that the Worimi people have had in place for years where you can camp anywhere along the foreshore.
I've been camping there for 20+ years and its always been known by locals that once NPWS took over the management it would only be a matter of time since they locked it down, just as they have already done in many other parks and what were once State forest.
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The storms excuse is just that. I've driven the beach from Anna Bay down the the Sygna since the dune were closed and I challenge anyone to be able to point out any real difference in the beach or the dunes that one wouldn't expect from any large storm. Sand comes, sand goes, dunes move with the wind.
The story I got from two rangers was that the storm had unearthed "significant cultural relics" and as we drove around we saw several shell midderns taped off. I mean no disrespect to the indigenous people of the area, the Worimi, but seriously a few folks had a big feed of seafood and left the shells there. How does that becomes a "significant cultural relic" ? I could understand if it was just a few large areas but there is so many and they're so dispersed I can't accept that they require protection from anything.
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If the midderns have been there for thousands of years why do they need NPWS to intervene now anyway.
Management of anything by the NPWS means passive recreation only, looking and hugging trees accepted. They do not have a compliance policy, do not enforce or book anyone for anything, they just give cautions and close off access.
If they actually enforced the regulations in the parks they might weed out some of the idiots. But instead its easier to lock the gate and penalise everyone. This also fits in with their mantra as an advisory department with very high compliance rates. This is because access is restricted and as stated no rules are enforced.
Dont get me wrong I don't want rangers on every corner, however managed and policed access is a much better option that locking the gates, and corralling people into a 20 x20 camping area.
Jas
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Would be interesting to see what happened if somebody with enough financial clout challenged these people that close off public lands, methinks the npws might get a fright >:D
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Why is it that us 4wders can't use the beach , but when I went for an early morning fish I seen a dozer on top of the dunes pushing sand back into the sand mining area ? I wish I took my phone with me that morning . F$$k I was pissed off
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Btw me and my family will be there with our camper in tow
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This is an invitation to anyone from Sydney or south who intending to head up to the Save Stockton & The Watagans rally on Saturday 2 Feb.
The rally starts at 9am in Stockton, then moves to Cessnock at 11am.
I will be at McDonald's Thornleigh from 6.30am, to leave at 7am if you would like to travel up as a group, or even car share.
Map link to the Rally point at Stockton
https://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=King+Street,+Stockton,+New+South+Wales&hl=en&sll=-33.27109,151.43662&sspn=1.127527,2.392273&oq=King+Street,+Stockton&hnear=King+St,+Stockton+New+South+Wales+2295&t=m&z=16 (https://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=King+Street,+Stockton,+New+South+Wales&hl=en&sll=-33.27109,151.43662&sspn=1.127527,2.392273&oq=King+Street,+Stockton&hnear=King+St,+Stockton+New+South+Wales+2295&t=m&z=16)
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Dont forget, tomorrows the protest rally at Stockton. Be there or continue to be locked out. See you there Big Jules.
:cheers: avo
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I'd suggest ensuring your vehicles are clean, as legal as possible, no obvious defects, drive sensibly because you will be targets for the RTA etc
Good luck
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Dont get me wrong I don't want rangers on every corner, however managed and policed access is a much better option that locking the gates, and corralling people into a 20 x20 camping area.
Jas
Jason some parks in the US have Rangers everywhere and they are very well managed.
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Why is it that us 4wders can't use the beach , but when I went for an early morning fish I seen a dozer on top of the dunes pushing sand back into the sand mining area ? I wish I took my phone with me that morning . F$$k I was pissed off
Bit like Kurnell, the successive Governents looked after this dunes!
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This is an invitation to anyone from Sydney or south who intending to head up to the Save Stockton & The Watagans rally on Saturday 2 Feb.
The rally starts at 9am in Stockton, then moves to Cessnock at 11am.
I will be at McDonald's Thornleigh from 6.30am, to leave at 7am if you would like to travel up as a group, or even car share.
Map link to the Rally point at Stockton
https://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=King+Street,+Stockton,+New+South+Wales&hl=en&sll=-33.27109,151.43662&sspn=1.127527,2.392273&oq=King+Street,+Stockton&hnear=King+St,+Stockton+New+South+Wales+2295&t=m&z=16 (https://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=King+Street,+Stockton,+New+South+Wales&hl=en&sll=-33.27109,151.43662&sspn=1.127527,2.392273&oq=King+Street,+Stockton&hnear=King+St,+Stockton+New+South+Wales+2295&t=m&z=16)
A reminder for anyone leaving from Sydney.
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Good luck to everybody going, and thanks for supporting this cause for all us. I have to travel to Bathurst today but would have liked to have gone along.
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Would be there in a heartbeat if we still lived nearby.
used to love going for a beach run there a couple of times a year. Lavis lane up to pub for lunch and then back again.
Good luck guys and take care
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Well said. They do have an annual cleanup on Stockton. Maybe they need more than one.
they have the same thing on Fraser Island also. i was speaking to a Ranger on the island one time whilst camped there and that subject came up in our converstation. the Ranger said whilst it's a great thing the people do with the clean up, but a week later you wouldn't know it had been done, the amount of crap that washes up from the ocean is rediculous >:( >:(
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Not giving my 2 cents as I don't live there. I'm sure my friend won't mind me sharing ... this from a local with some great links to check out:
"A bit of a standoff on the use of our magnificent Stockton Beach by national parks at the moment after bad storm damage last May. They closed the beach to camping which most likely got a few upset over the Christmas/New Year period.
I think 4WD Action magazine is a little misinformed on the situation. Not all of the beach is closed to driving. It is only the dunes north of Lavis Lane that are closed while the area south of Lavis is open as well as all of near 30km of beach front http://goo.gl/gg4Co (http://goo.gl/gg4Co) Huge amounts of sand were washed away on the beach front with little or no sand to drive on especially between mid & high tide as this photo shows http://goo.gl/QzeZd (http://goo.gl/QzeZd) No doubt the recent wild weather has again taken more sand off the beach.
It is in these situations that you get the few that bugger it up for everyone & drive over the fragile vegetation on the foredunes.
Similar beach driving closures have been happening at the Myall Lakes National Park for years & there is no camping on that beach at all.
I must say the national parks in conjunction with the local Worimi people have been doing a pretty good job running the three reserves that make up Stockton Beach after taking over from the Port Stephens Council setup & run Recreational Vehicle Area which was established in the 80's after Bob Carr banned all 4wd's from public land. I was involved in the consultation process of the RVA with the council at the time as an ordinary beach user along with the 4wd council, ammeter fishing association & local fishing clubs."
Kit_e
Yep the article is right Kit_e. The southern end of Stockton is still open, provided you have a registered vehicle and pay for your permit to be on the beach you are right. Because the southern end is the RVA and no camping is allowed in the RVA there is no camping allowed on Stockton until the northern end is reopened.
Funny how some groups go off without checking for any facts first and then make up 'facts' later
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Good luck to those who are going.
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Just heard that over 2000 4wd's turned up and they had trouble organising such a large turnout! Apparently it was massive, the convoy stretched tens of klm's.
cheers
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About 48Km's, I believe, stretched from Stockton to Cessnock..
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It was a huge turnout apparently. I was working but most of my mates went and loved being part of positive change
http://www.theherald.com.au/story/1274964/4wd-rally-attracts-thousands/?cs=305 (http://www.theherald.com.au/story/1274964/4wd-rally-attracts-thousands/?cs=305)
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Thanks to Bigjules and Carl today for a great day at the rally.
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well done to all those involved
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Yep the article is right Kit_e. The southern end of Stockton is still open, provided you have a registered vehicle and pay for your permit to be on the beach you are right. Because the southern end is the RVA and no camping is allowed in the RVA there is no camping allowed on Stockton until the northern end is reopened.
Funny how some groups go off without checking for any facts first and then make up 'facts' later
I'm not sure as to the intent of the post....and no I didn't go to the protest today.....but the idea behind it was not so much the closure of the beach straight after the storm...but the reluctance to reopen it after the beach had ( apparently) returned back to normal....
Now everybody knows that nat parks has a history of doing these sort of things...and we as citizens....have a right to have a say in the running of the country...and really ....we are the country..... !!!
And I'll get on the high horse here........same as a union.......the officials running the union are no different to the politicions......they are there to serve the members.... NOT to make their own rules.....shame it can't be that simple...but it can if the people want it to be ??
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I'm not sure as to the intent of the post....and no I didn't go to the protest today.....but the idea behind it was not so much the closure of the beach straight after the storm...but the reluctance to reopen it after the beach had ( apparently) returned back to normal....
Now everybody knows that nat parks has a history of doing these sort of things...and we as citizens....have a right to have a say in the running of the country...and really ....we are the country..... !!!
And I'll get on the high horse here........same as a union.......the officials running the union are no different to the politicions......they are there to serve the members.... NOT to make their own rules.....shame it can't be that simple...but it can if the people want it to be ??
Well said gronk..my sentiments exactly, not just in the context of Stockton but in general ...councils,unions, and worst of all government..Local,State and worst of all Federal. Once elected these entities become UNACCOUNTABLE to the people that elected them and for most people its just too hard to fight back...
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I have driven the northern end of the beach and I don't know how they could say that lots of sand had been washed away making it any different from how it was? It's a beach. Storms bring sand and take it away. The dunes are constantly moving due to wind. And, one is allowed to drive along the beach front where the sand would have been removed, but not behind the high water mark.
My two cents. There was a huge number of people and vehicles in attendance today, but there was no action plan provided by the organisers. No lobby points were made, no mention of any invitations to NPWS to address the protest, or the Worimi to answer criticism of the closure of the beach.
There is a need for action on the closure of recreational spaces and clearly there is support but without an effective lobby and pressure brought to bear that strong sentiment will count for little.
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I'm not sure as to the intent of the post....and no I didn't go to the protest today.....but the idea behind it was not so much the closure of the beach straight after the storm...but the reluctance to reopen it after the beach had ( apparently) returned back to normal....
Now everybody knows that nat parks has a history of doing these sort of things...and we as citizens....have a right to have a say in the running of the country...and really ....we are the country..... !!!
And I'll get on the high horse here........same as a union.......the officials running the union are no different to the politicions......they are there to serve the members.... NOT to make their own rules.....shame it can't be that simple...but it can if the people want it to be ??
I guess you could say my intent of the post was to make people think for themselves.
At present you can not camp on Stockton Beach. Stockton Beach is not Closed, only part of Stockton Beach is closed, the area north of Lavis Lane is closed to the dunes but you can still drive the beach.
And Big Jules you touched on a very good point regarding an action plan and no mention of any invitations to NPWS to address the protest, or the Worimi to answer criticism of the closure of the beach.
The following is from the 4wd NSW & ACT Association
Re: Stockton Beach over Christmas-New Year #1418 7 hours, 58 minutes ago
OK, we have had no response for over 24 hours form John Rooth, so below is now our response.
Four Wheel Drive NSW&ACT (the Association) does not support the protest rally organised by Roothy and 4X4 Action Magazine. There are several reasons for this decision which was not made lightly and involved discussion with GSRC club Delegates at their recent meeting..
We have been trying to broker a meeting between the organisers of the protest, NPWS and ourselves. We have had no response from the event organisers although NPWS are keen to participate. In addition we must be mindful of the views of the traditional landowners - the Worimi people - on whose behalf NPWS manage the area as well as private land owners/lessees.
We do not believe additional access at this time is in the best interests of the sustainable long term use of Stockton beach for all user groups. The beach and associated dune area suffered severe damage and will need time to restore itself, if it is not given this time it will be lost to all for ever. This is not the first ocassion that such damage or restrictions have happened, it will not be the last and the best way to get the beach open to all is to let it to recover - a natural process which must run its course.
The main reason we have access to Stockton Beach now is because of the work of a few dedicated members of this Association over the last fifteen years or so. Their hard work has focussed on keeping this beach open to all, not just Association members. At our last quarterly meeting the Chairman of Hunter Region (Rob Kelly) tabled documentation including maps etc. which he offered to discuss with Clubs interested in using the area at its conclusion. NOT ONE SINGLE CLUB representative took the opportunity to do so. The Association has the latest information on its web site under "Documents" - Temprary Changes to Stockton Beach and Dunes..
Please be advised that the Association will not encourage participation in any protest where the reasons for it are not for the advancement of 4WDing generally and the organisers have either not undertaken appropriate research before calling for such action and/or are utilising the prospective event for "other" purposes. You will note that the document referred to above on our website is titled "TEMPORARY CHANGES" which of itself indicates that there is no intention to abandon previous access arrangements.
Please copy and past this out to as many members as possible, thanks
Have fun
Craig Thomas
Association President
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On the upside out of all of this it would be great to see more people become involved in future meetings and present their view point when draft plans are put on the table for public comment, before the Plans are passed to put up more gates and lock out area we want to go to. It is in the draft planning stage that the public out cry needs to be made and show the bureaucrats we do not want to get locked out.
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On the upside out of all of this it would be great to see more people become involved in future meetings and present their view point when draft plans are put on the table for public comment, before the Plans are passed to put up more gates and lock out area we want to go to. It is in the draft planning stage that the public out cry needs to be made and show the bureaucrats we do not want to get locked out.
Sorry mate...but WHO is the nsw 4wd association ??
Are they a political party ? what role do they play in having a say or influence in the running of Stockton....or any other place ?
I have no problem if your organisation has access to meetings or whatever about the running of offroad activities...but I have a problem if any meetings take place that doesn't involve any ordinary citizens that want to be involved..
I have a problem with areas being only open to selected groups...ie; 4wd clubs....at the exclusion of the general puplic !!
And the statement that Stockton is open due to the dedicated actions of some of your members ???? really ??
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http://4wdnow.com/ (http://4wdnow.com/)
And no I am not on the committee, just a member of a member Club.
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The following is from the 4wd NSW & ACT Association
Re: Stockton Beach over Christmas-New Year #1418 7 hours, 58 minutes ago
The main reason we have access to Stockton Beach now is because of the work of a few dedicated members of this Association over the last fifteen years or so. Their hard work has focussed on keeping this beach open to all, not just Association members. At our last quarterly meeting the Chairman of Hunter Region (Rob Kelly) tabled documentation including maps etc. which he offered to discuss with Clubs interested in using the area at its conclusion. NOT ONE SINGLE CLUB representative took the opportunity to do so. The Association has the latest information on its web site under "Documents" - Temprary Changes to Stockton Beach and Dunes..
Have fun
Craig Thomas
Association President
interesting comment there but a load of BS. When Menai went down a similar road years ago. It was cleaned up on regular occasions by 4wd Clubs & the local Motor Bike Club. We spent countless hours dragging out wrecked cars, old tyres, rubbish etc. Weed control, fence & track maintenance. This went on for many years. Then one year after all the clubs had finished they locked the clubs out. Yes people still enter, mostly those that didn't helped clean the place and probably still drop their rubbish there. If your 4wd club member you risk a fine as you know the rules, yet a general public person plays the I didn't know excuse and nothing happens.
Like most of us here I'm willing to help maintain, pay to keep entering or both. I just don't want us to be locked out.
This is why 4wders, club members or not attend days like today to show our hands to keep Australia open for us & our children.
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An area around Morgan in SA was fenced and closed a few years ago. This area was closed because a member of a 4wd club had an accident and sued the council for damages.
Since the area has been fenced, control of access has been granted to the 4WD club association of SA and access can only be gained by being a member of a club. The same group that caused the problem to start with.
I have no issue with 4wd clubs or their members, however, I do not want to be held over a barrell by an association that says I MUST be a member to be able to use my 4wd. I don't think that is fair to even try and from what I can see from the Stockton Letter, that is exactly what 4wd NSW is trying to do there.
I am also a member of a camping club, this does not mean I have to go out with them every time I want to go camping, but does give me an option to be a part of a group.
Australia needs to be left open for access, controls need to be put into place to stop fools from abusing the areas in which we all should be able to access, however, access should not be restricted to minority groups.
Rant over
Cracka
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The 4wd accociation NSW/ACT represent less than 1% of four wheel drivers. They do negotiate deals in the best interests of their members. I am in a 4wd club that is a member of the association. However I don't believe the association represents our interest well or the wider interests of the 4wding community.
Their focus is very narrow and they negotiate special deals including attempting to gain access for members different to that available to the general public.
I won't be joining up any time soon. The correspondence read out at our club has enough elitist tone in it for me to know its not for me.
At least Roothy is doing some thing and having a go.
Jas
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*** NEWSFLASH ***
The NSW/ACT 4WD association became irrelevant yesterday when up to 5000 4WD'ers (whom they purport to represent), turned up to a rally which the association says they don't support or encourage.
I think this makes it pretty clear that the association does NOT speak for the 4WDing public.
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Along with a crowd of thousands (other myswag members amoung them ;D) I also went to the rally yesterday.
After talking to some of the organisers and from hearing and seeing things for myself, there were a couple of problems that caused the protest to prehaps not be as effective as it could have been.
The weather made it impossible to gather at the original advertised place as the ground was too soft from the rain. This left the organisers in a bit of a pickle as more and more 4bees kept pouring in. At about 8.30 the :police: stopped any more 4bees from joining the first group at Stockton :'(. This is where I was.
With no more room at Stockton, the snap decision had to be made to take everyone else to Kooragang Island. So now the groups were split in two, one at Stockton and one at the other end of the Stockton bridge on Kooragang.
With the rain pelting down and the wind blowing hard, the only place Roothy could address everyone was under the bridge on Kooragang, leaving those of us at Stockton trying to listen in to what he was saying on UHF 16. Unfortunately, with some low life trying to jam the channel, it was almost impossible to hear anything >:(.
At 10am the decision was made to head to the Cessnock Showgrounds in a giant protest convoy. I belief this part was successful as Roothy and the leaders reached Cessnock whilst the tail end was trying to clear the Stockton bridge. It took an hour to get over the bridge alone (normally 1 minute). Everwhere you looked there were 4bees, with most flying the orange Roothy protest flag (organisers had brought 2000 but quickly ran out). All of this was on the electronic RTA overhead signs and on the local radio stations :cup:.
As time went by, and faced with the shear mass of numbers of 4bees pouring into Cessnock, Roothy came over the UHF and declared the rally over, thanking everyone for their efforts.
I think that if it hadn't rained like it did, and if the true numbers of protesters coming had been fully known, then the rally could have been better organised and more effective. But we have to remember that the guys from 4WD Action are bushies and journalists, not professional rally organisers. Given the lessons they would have learned from yesterday, no doubt the 4WD Action guys will do much better with future such events, especially now they know for sure the level of support they will recieve.
Either way, with everything considered, they did the best they could and the message has got out: National Parks, average Aussies are not going to be locked out and dictated to.
:cheers: avo
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I was under the impression the closures are temporary due to the amount of damage by the weather meaning areas normally used for camping aren't suitable at the moment?
I agree that a well organised protest about the continued closure of tracks is worthwhile but unorganized groups with no clear objective is unfortunately going to be ignored by those in power and will just annoy local residents
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This is a fact, National Parks will only re-open Stockton when they think it is ready to be opened, regardless of how many protest about it, their only interest is the protection of the envioronment and what the Worrimi people want.
Baz.
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This is a fact, National Parks will only re-open Stockton when they think it is ready to be opened, regardless of how many protest about it, their only interest is the protection of the envioronment and what the Worrimi people want.
Baz.
Would love to accept your argument Baz, however, you can still book a tour into the sand dunes from Pt Stephens. The dunes have been opened to tour operators. If the environment is of top priority, the dunes would be closed to all!
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Was just listening to the local radio station here in Pt Stephens and one thing they said was that parts of the dunes were closed by private owners.Might be sand mining companies ?
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This is a fact, National Parks will only re-open Stockton when they think it is ready to be opened, regardless of how many protest about it, their only interest is the protection of the envioronment and what the Worrimi people want.
Baz.
I too find this hard to accept. I simply can't see the damage they claim, and got a different story from rangers on the beach when I drove it last year.
I am no anti-greenie, but the fact is that this is a beach subject to continual change from the wind and sea, far more than any 4wd use creates.
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There is a large part of the dunes at Stockton which are private property and not open for the public. This doesn't always stop people driving there with some people however. The tour operators have private agreements and pay the land owner to conduct their tours on the dunes on that private land. The Worimi people want to have the area reopened as much as anyone.
http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/NationalParks/parkFireClosure.aspx?id=N1111 (http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/NationalParks/parkFireClosure.aspx?id=N1111)
The Worimi Conservation Lands Board of Management, and the NPWS remain committed to seeing a return to camping on the lands, but needs to ensure that camping areas do not damage Aboriginal sites, are safe and sustainable. The provision of camping opportunities on the park is addressed in the Draft Plan of Management for the WCL, which is scheduled for public viewing & comment in early 2013.
People concerned about the closure of the beach need to get themselves organised and be prepared and have constructive input for when the Draft Plan of Management for the WCL comes up for Public Viewing and Comment. That is where we, the people, can have input into what happens in the future. Okay we have had the protest with a mass gathering of people, now is when the locals need to get themselves orgainised, No offence to Roothy, but he is from interstate, it needs someone local to stand up and formalise the masses and get a proposal ready for when the public viewing and comment is asked for.
Who is going to do something about it???
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http://www.worimiconservationlands.com/services.php?top=services&category=parkmanagement&sid=82 (http://www.worimiconservationlands.com/services.php?top=services&category=parkmanagement&sid=82)
The WCL plan of management consultative group is:
Hugh James - Camping, fishing & young people
Trevor Connell - NPWS Hunter Region Advisory Committee
Annie Lawrence - Anna Bay Parks Committee
Nicola Roche - Archaeologist & cultural heritage resource management specialist
Brendan Burke - Recreation Vehicle Area interests
Siri Nicolas - Horse riding
Rob Kelly - Four wheel driving - 4WD NSW & ACT Inc.
Mark Newling - Stockton Bight Dune Operators Association
Alwyn Garland - Tin City Heritage & Conservation Society Inc.
John Simpson - National Parks Association
Myra Espey - Port Stephens Econetwork
Jason Linnane - Port Stephens Council
http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/resources/parks/wclBeachDriving.pdf (http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/resources/parks/wclBeachDriving.pdf)
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Have a vote on this poll
Newcastle Herald (http://www.theherald.com.au/story/1274964/video-poll-pics-48km-4wd-protest/?cs=303)
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As time went by, and faced with the shear mass of numbers of 4bees pouring into Cessnock, Roothy came over the UHF and declared the rally over, thanking everyone for their efforts.
They had enough photos for the magazine?
So if the traffic jam was 48klms long, I can see why they wouldn't want that many 4wds on the dunes.
Or were most just on the bandwagon.
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They had enough photos for the magazine?
So if the traffic jam was 48klms long, I can see why they wouldn't want that many 4wds on the dunes.
Or were most just on the bandwagon.
I agree Lost, no different to other magazine 'beat-up' campaigns, such as those about bull bars and lifted suspensions.
As Redback said, NPWS will re-open when they believe it should be.
I have never been a member of a 4WD club, however they are the only organised Association in a position to 'represent' the interests of 4WD users. It simply isn't possible to have Joe Public 'represented' in working parties / committees etc. As such they do a valuable job.
I con't see what the alternative could be, short of saying that you / me should be able to do/ go wherever/whatever we want because, in our eyes, we are 'right'... and that will never happen. While we all love the wilderness / frontier 'experience', the simple reality is that everywhere on public land is regulated to some extent.
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As Redback said, NPWS will re-open when they believe it should be.
The point being made by the protest is that NPWS have no vested interest in reforming it. They do not seem to be interested in operating sustainable areas where responsible folks can use public land for recreation.
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Would love to accept your argument Baz, however, you can still book a tour into the sand dunes from Pt Stephens. The dunes have been opened to tour operators. If the environment is of top priority, the dunes would be closed to all!
That's the bit that throws the spanner in the works. Have they stopped the tour operators at all since the damage occurred?
Either trust the tour operators more than Joe Average (which may or may not be valid), or the tour operators pay a special fee to be allowed to use it (money talks), or they can control the #'s on the area this way.
I still don't see a 48 klm line of cars prompting them to think '**** we got it wrong' - even if 25% of those cars wanted to access the area, that's a **** load of cars. Let alone to the normal traffic trying to get places.
We suffer from the same down here. When the winter closures happen, everyone goes to the few open areas causing loads of damage due to increased traffic, then they don't open areas because of the damage. We are also losing areas.
Down here they have only a few rangers per x100 sq klms to look after the area, and an ever shrinking budget.
Honestly I don't know what the long term answer is to it - anywhere.
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Cessnock council apparently asked that they disband the convoy and not all converge on the showground here. The grounds were also very soggy and water was beginning to pool everywhere, so the organisers complied with their request.
As for Stockton, last time I headed down to the beach, several months after the storm which caused the closure, the beachfront, foredunes and larger rear dunes which are off limits seemed to look as they always had and certainly didn't look anything like the washed away, eroded photos that NPWS still display on their website.
It will be interesting to see what comes out in their management plan which they'll hopefully release soon. Surely they didn't upgrade the Lavis Lane entry for nothing? Sadly we'll not be getting any use out of our annual pass that we've bought (regardless of how inexpensive it was) as driving back and forth along the high tide line holds no interest for us.
The closures in the Watagans are a whole different ball game altogether :-(
Karen
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I think the concern and hence the support for the protest is because;
a) NWPS has form in terms of closing areas and not giving information as to why and if/when they will be reopened or under what conditions.
b) Such "temporary" closures have a habit of quietly becoming permanent
c) NWPS and local councils seem far more concerned with pacifying vocal green interests.
d) Stockton is an iconic 4WD destination and one of the very few places left where beach/dune driving is permitted. If it's lost to 4WDing public then it's surely lost forever.
d) The protest was an opportunity to show decision makers that 4WDers care about their access being diminished and won't stand by and let it happen. Nothing wrong with that is there?
I think it's a good thing. I don't think such an event needs "clear objectives" as others have said. It is enough that many thousands of 4WDers turned up to say "Hey, you can't just close Stockton down indefinitely and fob us off with crap about storm damage". At least the authorities are now listening and answering, justifying their case as they should have been from day one.
If there are land owners involved then why is it suddenly a problem now? If that's really the issue then let it be properly dealt with and not under the guise of some other reason that most people aren't buying.
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I think the concern and hence the support for the protest is because;
a) NWPS has form in terms of closing areas and not giving information as to why and if/when they will be reopened or under what conditions.
b) Such "temporary" closures have a habit of quietly becoming permanent
c) NWPS and local councils seem far more concerned with pacifying vocal green interests.
d) Stockton is an iconic 4WD destination and one of the very few places left where beach/dune driving is permitted. If it's lost to 4WDing public then it's surely lost forever.
d) The protest was an opportunity to show decision makers that 4WDers care about their access being diminished and won't stand by and let it happen. Nothing wrong with that is there?
I think it's a good thing. I don't think such an event needs "clear objectives" as others have said. It is enough that many thousands of 4WDers turned up to say "Hey, you can't just close Stockton down indefinitely and fob us off with crap about storm damage". At least the authorities are now listening and answering, justifying their case as they should have been from day one.
If there are land owners involved then why is it suddenly a problem now? If that's really the issue then let it be properly dealt with and not under the guise of some other reason that most people aren't buying.
(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-score010.gif) (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)
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Are they answering? If so who are they and where are the responses?
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Are they answering? If so who are they and where are the responses?
If there are no objectives, what are they answering?
I still don't get why tour operators have not been stopped...
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If there are no objectives, what are they answering?
I still don't get why tour operators have not been stopped...
its called MONEY Lost. in the right pockets its Gold. :-/
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Its also ...nice .... when you are on the beach and watch them still pushing sand around with dozers and taking out truck loads...
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That's the bit that throws the spanner in the works. Have they stopped the tour operators at all since the damage occurred?
Either trust the tour operators more than Joe Average (which may or may not be valid), or the tour operators pay a special fee to be allowed to use it (money talks), or they can control the #'s on the area this way.
I still don't see a 48 klm line of cars prompting them to think '**** we got it wrong' - even if 25% of those cars wanted to access the area, that's a **** load of cars. Let alone to the normal traffic trying to get places.
We suffer from the same down here. When the winter closures happen, everyone goes to the few open areas causing loads of damage due to increased traffic, then they don't open areas because of the damage. We are also losing areas.
Down here they have only a few rangers per x100 sq klms to look after the area, and an ever shrinking budget.
Honestly I don't know what the long term answer is to it - anywhere.
The area the tour operators use is on private property, not part of the WCL and there for the closure does not effect them. The WCL only makes up a part of the dunes at Stockton, not the whole lot. Other people also use the dunes the tour operators use, but are trespassing as they are entering private land without the permission of the land owners. The Tour Operators also pay the land owners for the privilege of conducting their tours on their land.
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I think the concern and hence the support for the protest is because;
a) NWPS has form in terms of closing areas and not giving information as to why and if/when they will be reopened or under what conditions.
b) Such "temporary" closures have a habit of quietly becoming permanent
c) NWPS and local councils seem far more concerned with pacifying vocal green interests.
d) Stockton is an iconic 4WD destination and one of the very few places left where beach/dune driving is permitted. If it's lost to 4WDing public then it's surely lost forever.
d) The protest was an opportunity to show decision makers that 4WDers care about their access being diminished and won't stand by and let it happen. Nothing wrong with that is there?
I think it's a good thing. I don't think such an event needs "clear objectives" as others have said. It is enough that many thousands of 4WDers turned up to say "Hey, you can't just close Stockton down indefinitely and fob us off with crap about storm damage". At least the authorities are now listening and answering, justifying their case as they should have been from day one.
If there are land owners involved then why is it suddenly a problem now? If that's really the issue then let it be properly dealt with and not under the guise of some other reason that most people aren't buying.
You hit the nail on the head there. Although the sad part is all the promising talks between departments and US as users of these areas always tend to fizzle away into nothing more than a lock on a gate. I've seen it many times where
Clubs involved and the association get nothing more than the runaround and a heap of dead ends. Makes me very very sad indeed.
I truly hope this one has a successful outcome for the public for a change :'(
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Well said Brucer
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*** NEWSFLASH ***
The NSW/ACT 4WD association became irrelevant yesterday when up to 5000 4WD'ers (whom they purport to represent), turned up to a rally which the association says they don't support or encourage.
I think this makes it pretty clear that the association does NOT speak for the 4WDing public.
I'm not a regular poster on here but this post prompted me to reply.
I will state I am a member of a 4wd club in NSW and as such represented by the 4WD NSW&ACT Association.
Please be advised that the Association will not encourage participation in any protest where the reasons for it are not for the advancement of 4WDing generally and the organisers have either not undertaken appropriate research before calling for such action and/or are utilising the prospective event for "other" purposes. You will note that the document referred to above on our website is titled "TEMPORARY CHANGES" which of itself indicates that there is no intention to abandon previous access arrangements.
You might note the quote says "the Association will not encourage participation in any protest where the reasons for it are not for the advancement of 4WDing generally" ; that means me, you, everyone.
Yes the 4wd Associations, and I say Associations meaning all states, first and foremost work for and on behalf of their members, but just like the NRMA who do the same, the results they get benefit the wider community. Unlike the NRMA the guys who work on behalf of the NSW Association are all volunteers who give their own free time to fight for causes they are passionate about, the very same causes you are passionate about.
The privileged access that people talk about is because member clubs (it is an association of clubs) train their members to a recognised standard which the land managers (NPWS/Forests etc) recognise and accept, the clubs also have liability insurance, this makes them a good risk in the eyes of the land managers and as such they have MOU's (memorandum of understanding) in place.
So whilst you say the Association is irrelevant, they quietly go about the business of attending meetings with government departments etc, with whom they have worked for years to get accepted, all so that the members can live the lifestyle they wish and the general public benefits as well, again I state, they do all this as volunteers, FREE. It might not be the in your face thousand plus trucks cruising down the freeway but it works, these guys do their home work, they attend meetings knowing what it is they're fighting for, and they have a plan, they talk, they compromise, they get results maybe not the result they always want but that's life.
So maybe if what 10% of the guys who attended the rally last Saturday join or form a club and that club joins the Association, they would have more clout when they represent the association at meetings, and believe me numbers count, they turn up and represent thousands of people and they're listened to. who did Mr Rooth represent? yes he was a figure head to thousands but no one who counts is listening to him.
There's an election later this year, if the 4wd community got it's act together it could achieve so much, just think about joining a club and supporting the association in NSW, they have the access to the people you need to talk to.
And on a final note, Stockton and the Watagans are old news, the decisions have been made, The Watagans has gates put in to save the tracks during bad weather, I think you'll find that's a regular thing done in a lot of national parks, the tracks that everyone is shouting about are play tracks that have been bush bashed through, and shouldn't be there, again it's a liability issue. Stockton well there's the Traditional Land Owners, a Sand Mine and the NPWS who I understand manage the beach on behalf of the TLO, so give the rangers a break, they're just following instructions.
So to recap, the NSW association works for it's members, the general public benefits from that work whether they realise it or not, if the 4WD community wants to see results it needs to talk to the people in power who matter, 4WD NSW&ACT Association have those contacts, use them it's in all our best interests.
Peace people, these are just my thoughts, B.
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Bob, while you have many valid points, I for one don't want to join a 4wd club, and I don't believe in the system where unless you are a member of something, it gives you any more right to do something !!
I'm sure the president of the 4wd association does some good, but as proved by the numbers that attended the rally, he represents a very small proportion of 4wders..
Now, everyone knows that people are usually their own worst enemies, and 4wders are no different, and sometimes tracks need to be closed to protect them......but as everyone knows, that closure sometimes ( or most times ) becomes permanent..
As for Watagans tracks being closed during wet weather, that story may have been told to your leaders, but they were still closed a year later ( during the big drought of last year )...........I rang nat parks about it and got shifted between 3 different offices and still no defineate answer......
When you say the decision has already been made about Stockton.....what decision are you talking about........they are saying the beach will reopen to campers....the rally of 4,000 people were suspicious about that statement, so decided to act.......are you saying they have decided not to reopen it ??
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Not joining a club, that's your choice. Personnally I love club life, we belong to an excellent club.
There are plenty of instances in life where you get to do things that others can't because you're a member of a group and they're not. Please don't think we get to drive anywhere we wish, I still can't go into the Watagans and drive all the play tracks I used to a year ago and it gives me the s*&ts, I understand why they've been bulldozed them, but now I go playing further afield.
The association president doesn't work alone, there is a committee.
I'm not sure I agree with you on the closures, I'm a glass half full guy, I don't believe permanent closures are inevitable.
The Watagans, I'm talking of the latest crop of gates, I know Slippery Rock was closed a couple of years ago and hasn't been opened again, I drove that just before the gates went in and it was a mess, I've seen some of the new gates and they're all pretty much on the main tracks, except Daniels Point Rd and that is a mess down the bottom.
When talking about Stockton, I just mean the current restrictions regarding access and to restrict camping, those decisions are made and in force, I believe the beach will re-open and camping allowed again when the conditions improve.
B.
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One of the top stories on the Newcastle Herald website
http://www.theherald.com.au/story/1280555/stockton-dunes-stay-off-limits/?cs=303 (http://www.theherald.com.au/story/1280555/stockton-dunes-stay-off-limits/?cs=303)
Gives a little insight into what is happening
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Pity the news report only regurgitates what NPWS are saying and does not actually prove anything.
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Looks like a certain magazine may have aided in keeping it closed just a little longer.
Sometimes it is better to say nothing at all.
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Pity the news report only regurgitates what NPWS are saying and does not actually prove anything.
Don't know if it qualifies as proof.
Love your sig, but we wont blame you for the flooding
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Looks like a certain magazine may have aided in keeping it closed just a little longer.
Sometimes it is better to say nothing at all.
They got 20 pages of photos for their article - so its a win win..
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They seem very proud of THE BIGGEST CONVOY OF VEHICLES IN THE WORLD, when I thought it was about protesting the closure of Stockton, or perhaps the Watagans, nah all of Australia, no wait it was the convoy I think.
10 4 rubber ducky
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Love your sig, but we wont blame you for the flooding
Thanks Al, I was hoping for some sun while we were there.
:cheers: Craig
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From memory I thought it was hot and sunny that weekend, wasn't until after the weekend during the week it started to rain
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Yeah was a nice weekend, we arrived on the sunday and the rain started Monday night. Nice part of the world though, is on the "must come back here" list, which is forever growing. :D
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Let us know and will show you around, (what is left open for us)
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Get a load of this...
http://www.theherald.com.au/story/446693/15bn-stockton-mining-proposal-passed/ (http://www.theherald.com.au/story/446693/15bn-stockton-mining-proposal-passed/)
Now the reason becomes clear.And it is the Mayor of Post Stephens who owns the mining company...
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Get a load of this...
http://www.theherald.com.au/story/446693/15bn-stockton-mining-proposal-passed/ (http://www.theherald.com.au/story/446693/15bn-stockton-mining-proposal-passed/)
Now the reason becomes clear.And it is the Mayor of Post Stephens who owns the mining company...
That has been on the cards for a long time and mentioned many times
Kurnell used to have sand hills.. some were 100+ foot high sand dunes from coast to coast and for about 10+klms
it now looks like this with sand mining now underground as they have trucked the hills away for buildings. That's where Stockton will be in 15-20yrs time.
(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd234/cremo1/002_Kurnell.jpg)
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Get a load of this...
http://www.theherald.com.au/story/446693/15bn-stockton-mining-proposal-passed/ (http://www.theherald.com.au/story/446693/15bn-stockton-mining-proposal-passed/)
Now the reason becomes clear.And it is the Mayor of Post Stephens who owns the mining company...
Do you think the Worimi need the money generated from 50 campers a weekend ????
Not now !!
Only trouble, it will probably turn out like the North Entrance debacle......50 million bucks all but vanished into bank accounts...bugger all chanelled into actually helping any aboriginies !!......and even worse was the claimants to the wealth were not even the traditional owners....because the traditional owners were no longer alive....another nearby group were allowed to claim !!
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Let us know and will show you around, (what is left open for us)
Cheers will look forward to it.