MySwag.org The Off-road Camper Trailer Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: albyback1 on October 20, 2011, 04:25:12 PM
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this is what to many kilometers of towing does to a supposed capable ute. The pictures show my utes chassis about 800 from the rear.... snapped through both rails
Tow ball weight is 180kg, trailer weight is around 980kg and the ute was almost empty bar a tool box, my fridge and some tires.
yep, it was a roughish road - for those in the know, Germein George rd - bitumen but lots of rough sections!
AAMI are screwing me around - trying to calim its "wear and tear"
Now if they agree to fix it, they are going to "cash settle" so as not to have to honour any warranty
Mmmmmmm, not happy Jan!
Time will tell if I get a win out of the insurance company... but Ill be annoyed if towing a trailer and snapping a chassis can be classed as "wear and tear"
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Ouch, good luck, you'd think towing within spec would be ok. This is happeneing to a lot of dual cab utes.
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Ouch - that looks expensive!
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This is happeneing to a lot of dual cab utes.
modern utes... striving to make them lighter, they make them weaker... so much for quality these days
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Yikes! :o
Good luck with your insurance - that's quite a break.
Matto :)
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MMMHHHH thought it was going to be a Triton, they have problems like that.
Hope it works out for you.
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Ouch - that looks expensive!
yep. around $3,000 to fix.... Thankfully they are considering fixing it. Id be devistated if they wanted to write it off
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Would be interesting to hear what a chassis engineer has to say about it
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MMMHHHH thought it was going to be a Triton, they have problems like that.
Hope it works out for you.
So do Patrol's
Maybe the chassis was made in China >:D
But someone did once say "you get what you pay for" ;D
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So do Patrol's
Maybe the chassis was made in China >:D
But someone did once say "you get what you pay for" ;D
that irony wasnt lost on me.. I was having a chuckle as I was waiting for a mate to drive down to Port Augusta to pick me up that my camper was chinese and it wouldnt last - always buy aussie they say - and its the aussie bit that broke!
wait for it - here comes the ford versus holden barrage!!!! lol
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I saw a rodeo up the Cape with a similar problem, and he was only towing a CT well within the maximum weight.
Regards
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1st one tonner ute Iv'e heard about that is "bent"
are both rails bent =, or is one bent more than the other?
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1st one tonner ute Iv'e heard about that is "bent"
are both rails bent =, or is one bent more than the other?
both rails bent and broken mate... heard the first one break, stopped and couldnt for the life of me work out what had happened... walked around the rig looking for anything out of place, drove some more and the other one went as well. thick as I am, still couldnt spot what had happened!!!! drove to Port Augusta and when filling up worked out something was amiss as the fuel nozzel was difficult to put in and remove!!!!
then the realization sank in!!!!
Bugga
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HI albyback1 they look like compression cracks the bulging side ways means the rail is bending up and down so the rail can only compress.I don,t know that I would go with a rail fix the trouble these days is car makers go for thinner steel to keep weight down by raising the tensile strength but makes it more prone to cracking.The flexing work hardens the steel causing hard spots then cracks then failure.Best of luck with that one. Tinkera.
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Really ruff stuff can cause damage in the strangest of places but ,,, Geeees its a work tray for goodness sake . Best part is you walked away no damage to yourself . :cheers:
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Long time lurker, first time poster...
Does your ute have an airbag suspension upgrade?
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Get it fixed...then flog it.
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I am guessing it had tickford suspension which is a whole lot stiffer than standard making it a ridged ute over ruff stuff! Don't think you would get a brand vs brand debate as nasty things like this happen to every badge good luck with the insurance and fix up
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Get it fixed...then flog it.
yea I'd more than likely do that too.. but if they brace it well enough, it might be ok... or it will then bend at the end of the bracing... who knows.
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Those pics are staggering mate. Good luck with it all and keep us posted.
Cheer BD
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Wow, not what I expected, I also thought it would be a one of the four cyliner 4x4 utes. I have seen a few of these on various forums and they all had air bags fitted which creates a point load that the chassis is not built for.
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Oh my god I can't stand this any longer....
a supposed capable ute
... I don't get it, I'm only seeing pictures of a Ford??!! There, got that out of the way.
Your camper did to your ute? or do you have airbags... we're keen to know.
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the damage was done with the springs flattened out to the bump stops as I towed the camper to SA from Sydney. I put air bags under the car in SA and the chassis then collapsed in SA on my way north
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I'm really not getting this... You had at the most 500kg of weight on the back and the axle's on the bump stops? Surely not... And you say that's when the damage was done, but THEN you fitted airbags?
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Ill clarify, Im guessing the stress was done when the bump stops were hit on the trip from NSW to SA and then enhancements were made to the suspension. Then, some 14,000kms later (most with the trailer attached) the chassis buckled..... as a result of huge bumps in road.... its definately accident damage... as specifications have not been overloaded with towball weight, GVM etc
plenty of kms and time (some 5 weeks of travel) before the chassis broke.
I chose to install airbags as the springs struggled to carry the basic weight of the tray, a standard holiday type load and the tow ball weight along with the gas tank.
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Problem with the airbags on leaf sprung vehicles is they take the weight and centre it all through the one point above the axle where as the leaf sprung chassis was designed to have the load spread across two points (front and rear hanger).
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Yep aibags take another victim :(
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then the realization sank in!!!!
Bugga
double bugga me thinks......
" Look what my camper did to my ute! "
could have been a horse float, hire trailer, bike trailer, caravan (urgh) or anything else towed, thing is you were towing within spec so thats for the insurance to take care of, it could have happened to any of us, maybee the insurance/manufacturer will have some come back due to fitting of the air bags, good luck and keep us all posted..........
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I would be ringing Ford and seeing what they have to say :'(
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I chose to install airbags as the springs struggled to carry the basic weight of the tray, a standard holiday type load and the tow ball weight along with the gas tank.
The solution to that is installing different springs. And that's what Ford would say.
Definitely not accident damage, it's airbag damage. You'd think by now the sellers of these dangerous liabilities (airbags not Fords) would be subject to criminal charges for supplying them for unsuitable vehicles (e.g. light leaf sprung utilities).
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I would be ringing Ford and seeing what they have to say :'(
THey will say GAGF.... you fitted airbags... like the triton dude did with his one, well one of the triton dudes
http://myswag.org/forum/index.php?topic=8976.0
I must agree with Hal, some form of warning and explaination shoudl be given on what damage airbags *Can * cause to new players
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The solution to that is installing different springs. And that's what Ford would say.
Definitely not accident damage, it's airbag damage. You'd think by now the sellers of these dangerous liabilities (airbags not Fords) would be subject to criminal charges for supplying them for unsuitable vehicles (e.g. light leaf sprung utilities).
Only other options to provide variable carrying capabilities is to buy those helper springs from Iron Man.
I would hesitate to put heavy duty suspension on a ute that would normally travel empty = you'd need a kidney belt on to go to
the local shop!
Still, the damage happened on a series of huge bumps hit at speed. The rise and fall of the vehicle gave the sensation of free flight as my stomach nearly hit my tonsils!
I'm not convince air bags caused the issue... the break is close to the rear hanger right where the sleeve lining of the rail finishes. If the break occured where the bags supported the load, I would tend to be swayed into agreement.....
its not a fatigue issue either as the load was capably carried - nor was it overloaded which is the very common result as people do not realise the extent of their load as the vehicle continues to "appear" nicley level.
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Air bad damage with leaf- I never thought of that but now I can see that your are correct. Their design is great for inside the coil springs and that is where they should have stayed.
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I would also be hounding Ford Aus for some form of compensation. That sort of thing should definately not happen. Good Luck.
Graeme K
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Sorry about the ute mate, Its a nice looking rig. ;D cheers rellbell
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Problem with the airbags on leaf sprung vehicles is they take the weight and centre it all through the one point above the axle where as the leaf sprung chassis was designed to have the load spread across two points (front and rear hanger).
That assumes that once an airbag is fitted the springs do no work at all - which is wrong. The airbag will take a portion of the load off the spring shackles and transfer it to the chassis midway between the shackles, but all three points will be loaded to some extent.
But I an very suspicious about a set of springs which bottom out under "the basic weight of the tray, a standard holiday type load and the tow ball weight along with the gas tank". Springs shouldn't bottom out under loads like that unless they are the wrong sort for the vehicle. What is the GVM for the vehicle?
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Ford have no case to answer. It would be interesting to know what springs were fitted before you bought it though - you certainly don't need to be looking at Ironman aftermarket stuff - you've evidently been sold some soft-riding pack with no load carrying capacity, because a standard cab/chassis has a payload ability of 1240kg less the tray, which would have been no problem if you'd had it. They're the springs you should have had - if your concern is that it usually travels empty and you want to be able to tow a tonne of trailer sometimes, put your spares down the back of the tray instead of up the front!
Also interesting to note that with the 1240kg suspension, Ford's maximum towball ratings are 120kg for manual and 160kg for automatic; and you didn't have that suspension, and started off with 180kg... that's the kind of problem that's going to be exacerbated with airbags.
I honestly reckon a lot of this kind of demand comes out of Wheels, Top Gear et al saying a car is second rate unless it handles like a race car... when real-world use says most of us would be much happier with 16" wheels, long-travel suspension and high-profile tyres.
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HI Just wondering if you told the insurance company you had fitted airbags the,ll look for anything to cut you loose. Forget FORD they wouldn,t want to know about it. Tinkera.
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Nasty break mate. Lucky you can't take that ute too far off road; could have been much worse.
Aaron
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Still reckon, get it pulled, straightened, welded and painted...then flog it....get the best price...put it down to experience... real bad experience.
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G,day matey am i looking at these pics the right way. if you were to grab two lengths of steel, same type of profile but a lighter guage,now bend one up and down to simulate roughly what has been discused, to the point of fatigue. now bend the other in a swaying motion,till it too reaches the point of fatigue. which piece looks like you chassis rail. could i be right in saying that MAYBEE just maybee that the trailer has shaken the crap out of the rear of the ute, with a swaying motion .give hayman reece in Dandenong a call,i remember that they have a simulation test for this very same thing, not they will tell you ?? . if i get the time today i will go down and see a bloke who knows of this of this tale(do not want to get him in trouble) but i seem to remember a story of this sway test on a ute that could of been made in broadmeadows ,doing the exact same thing cheers Graham
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what did you do to fix it?
how did you get on with the insurance?
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Problem with the airbags on leaf sprung vehicles is they take the weight and centre it all through the one point above the axle where as the leaf sprung chassis was designed to have the load spread across two points (front and rear hanger).
Yep spot on, it also increases the force of the load on the unsprung weight, this causes the chassis to bend.
Hope it gets sorted quickly for you.
Baz.
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But I an very suspicious about a set of springs which bottom out under "the basic weight of the tray, a standard holiday type load and the tow ball weight along with the gas tank". Springs shouldn't bottom out under loads like that unless they are the wrong sort for the vehicle. What is the GVM for the vehicle?
I drive an FG tray as a work car, the suspension goes flat at about 350 - 400Kg of load and that is spread evenly over the tray, not just loaded at the rear end. Boss thought it was a one tonner when he bought it...
:cheers:
Dave
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Still reckon, get it pulled, straightened, welded and painted...then flog it....get the best price...put it down to experience... real bad experience.
Agreed.
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Your'e lucky you found out about it before the trailer and half your ute fell off at higway speed...
Troy
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Saw a Navara with the same problem at Hawker but 5 mins later it was gone!!!
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All fixed and sorted... welded with a diamond shaped plate front and rear (each side and a sold piece of steal under the break. Now stronger than before - guarenteed not to break in the same place.
$3,000.00 to fix though
bloody AAMI only paid $2,000.00 cause they didnt want to enforce or strengthen the repair - so left me high and drey
nice to drive now - but refuse to tow my camper now!
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All fixed and sorted... welded with a diamond shaped plate front and rear (each side and a sold piece of steal under the break. Now stronger than before - guarenteed not to break in the same place.
$3,000.00 to fix though
bloody AAMI only paid $2,000.00 cause they didnt want to enforce or strengthen the repair - so left me high and drey
nice to drive now - but refuse to tow my camper now!
Sounds like an excuse to buy a 4by!!!
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All fixed and sorted... welded with a diamond shaped plate front and rear (each side and a sold piece of steal under the break. Now stronger than before - guarenteed not to break in the same place.
Concrete guarantee, Soon as it leaves the concrete - no guarantee it won't break elsewhere, methinks
$3,000.00 to fix though
bloody AAMI only paid $2,000.00 cause they didnt want to enforce or strengthen the repair - so left me high and drey
Bloody AMI only paid $2k because they "bought you off" and didn't pay for a guaranteed repair.
nice to drive now - but refuse to tow my camper now!
Sell/flog it ASAP - it's a liability waiting to fail. Do you have an engineers certificate to cover the chassis modification?? No?? Not insurable
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To a trained eye fish plates are a dead giveaway to a problem.Insurance company won the day on this one.Tinkera.
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All fixed and sorted... welded with a diamond shaped plate front and rear (each side and a sold piece of steal under the break. Now stronger than before - guarenteed not to break in the same place.
$3,000.00 to fix though
bloody AAMI only paid $2,000.00 cause they didnt want to enforce or strengthen the repair - so left me high and drey
nice to drive now - but refuse to tow my camper now!
Hi Alby,
nice to see that you have had the Ford sorted out - but probably not 100% happy because you now realise that you can't tow your camper with it.
Unfortunately we are in a similar predicament with our 2010 Ford Ranger XLT 4x4 / Tvan Murranji combo.
Poor ride in the Ranger after connecting the loaded CT had me investigating the ball weight. Even with only basics in the kitchen, no fridge in the CT, Porta-Potti, 2KVA Yamaha generator and both water tanks full - it was 219Kg on the ball! Loading examples shown in the owners manual suggest that this could be as high as 250 Kg!
The plate on the genuine Ford towbar showed a ball max of 180Kg. To clarify that a little - the Ford bar can take 250Kg on the ball PROVIDED a load levelling device (WDH) is used. But WDH's and off-road hitches don't go arm in arm!
The ball weight with the trailer completely empty, except 2 full 4Kg gas bottles but no water - is 166Kg. This is reflected on the trailer VIN plate. The Tvan towed OK at this weight.
The 166 Kg ball tare is only 14Kg short of the Ford max capability - so very carefull loading is necessary and things like the generator, porta-potti and also the spare trailer wheel need to be moved from the CT to the rear of the ute. All these items are normally stored in front of the trailer axle and will impact on the ball weight.
So in order for us to be able to tow the Tvan we have to do some serious load calculations and not fill the front water tank. This isn't really a problem for us as I have fitted a 60 L water tank in the Ranger - so would only need the extra water capacity if venturing into a remote dry area.
I think if we continued to overload the ball weight, then we risk a similar situation to what you have been through. Rear chassis damage seems to be a common problem with all brands of japanese light crew cab utes. Have seen many with the 'broken back' syndrome.
Incidentally Hayman Reese can supply a 300Kg ball rated towbar for my Ranger - but this wouldn't help the chassis situation which is basicly too light in my opinion.
Happy camping ... Tuco
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Sell/flog it ASAP - it's a liability waiting to fail.
x eleventy tweleveteen
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Wow Tuco, who would have thought the Tvan would weigh so much.
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This should fix it!
http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/toyota-landcruiser-1994-11611781?cr=1&vertical=Car&Range=Price:Min,25000~1&silo=Stock&sort=default&eapi=2&__N=1216 1246 1247 1252 1282 4294962861 4294962570&distance=25&find=6%20wheeler|CarAll
Deposit paid!!
Cant wait!
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hi alby how is up there truck looks good
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Hi Alby,
nice to see that you have had the Ford sorted out - but probably not 100% happy because you now realise that you can't tow your camper with it.
Unfortunately we are in a similar predicament with our 2010 Ford Ranger XLT 4x4 / Tvan Murranji combo.
Poor ride in the Ranger after connecting the loaded CT had me investigating the ball weight. Even with only basics in the kitchen, no fridge in the CT, Porta-Potti, 2KVA Yamaha generator and both water tanks full - it was 219Kg on the ball! Loading examples shown in the owners manual suggest that this could be as high as 250 Kg!
The plate on the genuine Ford towbar showed a ball max of 180Kg. To clarify that a little - the Ford bar can take 250Kg on the ball PROVIDED a load levelling device (WDH) is used. But WDH's and off-road hitches don't go arm in arm!
The ball weight with the trailer completely empty, except 2 full 4Kg gas bottles but no water - is 166Kg. This is reflected on the trailer VIN plate. The Tvan towed OK at this weight.
The 166 Kg ball tare is only 14Kg short of the Ford max capability - so very carefull loading is necessary and things like the generator, porta-potti and also the spare trailer wheel need to be moved from the CT to the rear of the ute. All these items are normally stored in front of the trailer axle and will impact on the ball weight.
So in order for us to be able to tow the Tvan we have to do some serious load calculations and not fill the front water tank. This isn't really a problem for us as I have fitted a 60 L water tank in the Ranger - so would only need the extra water capacity if venturing into a remote dry area.
I think if we continued to overload the ball weight, then we risk a similar situation to what you have been through. Rear chassis damage seems to be a common problem with all brands of japanese light crew cab utes. Have seen many with the 'broken back' syndrome.
Incidentally Hayman Reese can supply a 300Kg ball rated towbar for my Ranger - but this wouldn't help the chassis situation which is basicly too light in my opinion.
Happy camping ... Tuco
You just had me worried
We bought the Tracktrailer Topaz because of it's weight as I have a hilux with a maximum tow of 2250kg ball weight of 250Kg which i have never checked out.
Just ran out and had a look the Topaz Tare is only 1550Kg which I knew but the ball weight is only 90KG so i think i should be right
Moving things to the back of the car must be a pain but I am glad you found out be it was too late
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You just had me worried
We bought the Tracktrailer Topaz because of it's weight as I have a hilux with a maximum tow of 2250kg ball weight of 250Kg which i have never checked out.
Just ran out and had a look the Topaz Tare is only 1550Kg which I knew but the ball weight is only 90KG so i think i should be right
Moving things to the back of the car must be a pain but I am glad you found out be it was too late
Hi oldblade - your Topaz appears to be well balanced - unlike the Murranji that we bought. It is very front heavy probably due to the addition of the box with fridge slide and storage.
The VIN plate on our Murranji shows a tare of 1049 Kg and ball weight of 166 Kg - but the ball weight changes dramaticly when both water tanks are filled and things like a fridge, porta-potti and generator are added to the front storage box. Puts us way over the Ford Ranger towbar plated figures.
happy camping ... Tuco