Author Topic: Work for the dole  (Read 40855 times)

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Offline Barry G

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Re: Work for the dole
« Reply #125 on: August 17, 2015, 09:46:21 PM »
Seems like you need to read that inter generational report really.
The unlimited tax free super after age 60 was solely a political decision, recommended by no independent expert. In fact, most of the finance industry was incredulous when it was announced.
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Offline Barry G

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Re: Work for the dole
« Reply #126 on: August 17, 2015, 09:48:37 PM »
Wasn't Hawke/Keating in government in power when interest rates were at there highest?

A quick net search threw up this link regarding who inherited what economic circumstances from whom.
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/rearvision/a-history-of-australian-budget-surpluses-and-deficits/5446434
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Offline plusnq

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Re: Work for the dole
« Reply #127 on: August 17, 2015, 10:01:33 PM »
The unlimited tax free super after age 60 was solely a political decision, recommended by no independent expert. In fact, most of the finance industry was incredulous when it was announced.

Read the report is all I can say. It shows if the governments don't get those who can pay their own way, off the public purse, then we are going down the gurgler really fast. You may argue about the edges, which is the amount of tax free super, but the amount of people in these brackets is so small as to not affect the budget significantly. Trying to remove those people who can pay for their own retirement, from the distortions of a tax system that rewards those who try to arrange their finances to also collect pensions, is a good first step.

Offline Barry G

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Re: Work for the dole
« Reply #128 on: August 17, 2015, 10:12:14 PM »
Read the report is all I can say. It shows if the governments don't get those who can pay their own way, off the public purse, then we are going down the gurgler really fast. You may argue about the edges, which is the amount of tax free super, but the amount of people in these brackets is so small as to not affect the budget significantly. Trying to remove those people who can pay for their own retirement, from the distortions of a tax system that rewards those who try to arrange their finances to also collect pensions, is a good first step.
The 'rot' started when Joh got rid of death duties and all other states followed the same way.
There is actually a sound argument to say all should be entitled to an age pension, but that there should be far less tax exemptions for both individuals and corporations. Likewise, all income over a basic minimum, including the pension, should be taxed. As an encouragement for people to put money into super I would leave it tax free going in and tax at 50% of the marginal rate coming out.
It is the endless exemptions that make basic levels of social,security unviable.
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Offline plusnq

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Re: Work for the dole
« Reply #129 on: August 17, 2015, 10:24:46 PM »
The 'rot' started when Joh got rid of death duties and all other states followed the same way.
There is actually a sound argument to say all should be entitled to an age pension, but that there should be far less tax exemptions for both individuals and corporations. Likewise, all income over a basic minimum, including the pension, should be taxed. As an encouragement for people to put money into super I would leave it tax free going in and tax at 50% of the marginal rate coming out.
It is the endless exemptions that make basic levels of social,security unviable.

There is a sound argument that says that taxes should be for essential services. Society determines what those are. For most people essential services are whatever the government provides me, so the cuts should come from someone else...... Economically it has long been shown that there are tipping points of both taxation and government spending that actually reduce economic growth. The current government spending is above that threshold as a percentage of gdp. Excessive taxation like excessive government spending both distort the economy and adversely affect those working and paying taxes.

Offline fishfinder

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Re: Work for the dole
« Reply #130 on: August 18, 2015, 07:31:09 AM »
So did any of these politicians have to work for the dole ? - Topic drifted off track a fair bit soon we will be talking about the popes beanie should he or should not wear it if he was to work for the dole
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Offline gronk

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Re: Work for the dole
« Reply #131 on: August 18, 2015, 09:12:11 AM »
I think super shouldn't be taxed going in and out....unless a lump sum over a certain amount was withdrawn.

And certainly if your return from super was more than the pension by a certain amount, no pension would be able to be claimed.

The more they encourage people to build their super, even if the govt loses a bit of tax by doing the above,  the more they save on pension payments.

I know people on the old state super scheme, getting paid a pension of over 100K, who are manipulating their finances so they can receive  $1 of govt pension. ....to qualify for the benefits..
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Offline Oldandslow

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Re: Work for the dole
« Reply #132 on: August 18, 2015, 12:40:32 PM »
I don't think it matters how they set the super and tax laws. The bottom end will continue to take all the handouts and contribute next to no tax and the upper end will continue to rort the system and pay next to no tax while the so called middle income earners will continue to be exploited by the government and get nothing.
I am retired now but when I was working I received no government grants, my kids received no Aus study and every time I earned an extra couple of dollars doing overtime the government took half of it away in tax. If I had been on $10k less a year I would have received an extra $15k a year in entitlements. If the government had abolished income tax and imposed a GST of 30% I would have been way in front and those that rort the system would have to pay up.

Offline edz

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Re: Work for the dole
« Reply #133 on: August 18, 2015, 01:45:48 PM »
If the government had abolished income tax and imposed a GST of 30% I would have been way in front and those that rort the system would have to pay up.
You and I think alike Old n slow, I'm certainly no economist, but have been saying similar for years... get rid of personal income tax and a charge 15% GST on everything + let people put their super into buying / paying off / owning their first house to build a retirement fund instead of a pension .
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Offline gronk

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Re: Work for the dole
« Reply #134 on: August 18, 2015, 01:55:46 PM »
let people put their super into buying / paying off / owning their first house to build a retirement fund instead of a pension .

How would that work ?   Owning a house ( even though it should be a priority for everyone ) doesn't build a retirement fund ??

Can't live off a house.....even though you can sell and downsize...

Unless someone has a better idea, living off the proceeds of super/shares/cash/multiple investment properties etc seems the only way of avoiding getting the dole/pension !

And in ideal circumstances, I think everyone would prefer NOT to have to rely on any payments from the govt !
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Offline stabicraft

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Re: Work for the dole
« Reply #135 on: August 18, 2015, 04:23:52 PM »
Oldandslow, we must be of the same generation.
First home owners grants were like rocking horse teeth.
The 18% interest rates nearly crippled me, but we managed to get through it.
We had children and were given a few dollars, which we used only for the kids.
As for not paying tax on super, of course we do, we pay for it going in and we are taxed coming out, and if you look at the super accounts you see administration fees and government charges, we pay, and pay and pay.

Like you I too watched as my bonuses were plundered by the government.
1/2 or close enough was STOLEN from me by govco every time.
I received these bonuses for working above and beyond, just what the hell has govco ever done to deserve any of my bonus?

But what gets my goat, I have always been a single income earner, due to my wife's ill health.
But my sister and her husband with their combined wage was only about 10k more than mine.
However, they payed heaps less tax, because there were two incomes, not just one.
How is that fair? Why is income splitting not available?
After all they do not giver her the dole or benefits based on my wage.
And when you get a pension its as a couple, not individuals, its only when they win do they use the rules they want.
Bloody bunch of corrupt, narcissistic, Machiavellian, bombastic, bastards.

I reiterate , A POX ON THEM ALL, MAY THEY ALL GO TO HELL.


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Re: Work for the dole
« Reply #136 on: August 18, 2015, 04:44:28 PM »
Just reading between the lines here stabie. I take it you're not keen on our canberian masters?

Offline edz

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Re: Work for the dole
« Reply #137 on: August 18, 2015, 04:57:35 PM »
How would that work ?   Owning a house ( even though it should be a priority for everyone ) doesn't build a retirement fund ??

Can't live off a house.....
Told ya I'm an NOT an economist, just thinking, it might allow you to pay the house off a lot quicker and  put a working lifes full of extra  dollars away into investments / property what ever.. come retirement you should be pretty well off ..
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Offline BaseCamp

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Re: Work for the dole
« Reply #138 on: August 18, 2015, 05:18:52 PM »
I agree Gronk that super should not be taxed on the way in - at lease for say unto $50Kpa..

But I really think super should be taxed at say a whooping 50% - for those who decide to take it out ie.......(lump sum it)...

leave it in super and "live off it - over your retirement age" = tax free...

Take it out and spend it up big - so the retiree then can conveniently fall onto the pension - that activity needs a tax levied on it - imho...

I think super shouldn't be taxed going in and out....unless a lump sum over a certain amount was withdrawn.
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Offline gronk

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Re: Work for the dole
« Reply #139 on: August 18, 2015, 05:19:20 PM »
Told ya I'm an NOT an economist, just thinking, it might allow you to pay the house off a lot quicker and  put a working lifes full of extra  dollars away into investments / property what ever.. come retirement you should be pretty well off ..

Super is a forced saving....you and I know most people would use any extra money to spend on anything else BUT paying off their house and saving for retirement.....just human nature !
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Offline gronk

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Re: Work for the dole
« Reply #140 on: August 18, 2015, 05:30:10 PM »
I agree Gronk that super should not be taxed on the way in - at lease for say unto $50Kpa..

But I really think super should be taxed at say a whooping 50% - for those who decide to take it out ie.......(lump sum it)...

leave it in super and "live off it - over your retirement age" = tax free...

Take it out and spend it up big - so the retiree then can conveniently fall onto the pension - that activity needs a tax levied on it - imho...

Agree fully mate.....spend it as a pension but not as a lump sum..

But why not let people put in as much as they like per year....the more the less likely they will need a pension...if the above rules were in place..

My retirement age is now.....56.....but I can't take any super out ( tax free ) until 60.  I'm not a rich super account holder, but if I was, and I could afford a pension on that super ( no lump sums over say 40K ) for the next 20+yrs, then I would like it tax free at MY retirement age, not the govts..
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Offline BaseCamp

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Re: Work for the dole
« Reply #141 on: August 18, 2015, 05:38:19 PM »
Agree fully mate.....spend it as a pension but not as a lump sum..

But why not let people put in as much as they like per year....the more the less likely they will need a pension...if the above rules were in place..

I wanted to say this one too; mate - but didn't want to risk getting flamed by the Comrades re: (workers' rights vs. so called fat cats lining the supers with tax free dollars...)   LOL   grrr

I recon the more people can shove into their super *tax free* - and then use it as a pension - the less likely drain there will be on welfare?    tba...

At least if people are prepared to put in extra money of the discretionary own - and put that into their super - (well at least that component should be tax free_ ...  (both at the payg stage; and when it is put into super)...   ie" totally no tax impost..."

 


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Offline jetcrew

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Re: Work for the dole
« Reply #142 on: August 18, 2015, 08:17:47 PM »
Oldandslow, we must be of the same generation.
First home owners grants were like rocking horse teeth.
The 18% interest rates nearly crippled me, but we managed to get through it.
We had children and were given a few dollars, which we used only for the kids.
As for not paying tax on super, of course we do, we pay for it going in and we are taxed coming out, and if you look at the super accounts you see administration fees and government charges, we pay, and pay and pay.

Like you I too watched as my bonuses were plundered by the government.
1/2 or close enough was STOLEN from me by govco every time.
I received these bonuses for working above and beyond, just what the hell has govco ever done to deserve any of my bonus?

But what gets my goat, I have always been a single income earner, due to my wife's ill health.
But my sister and her husband with their combined wage was only about 10k more than mine.
However, they payed heaps less tax, because there were two incomes, not just one.
How is that fair? Why is income splitting not available?
After all they do not giver her the dole or benefits based on my wage.
And when you get a pension its as a couple, not individuals, its only when they win do they use the rules they want.
Bloody bunch of corrupt, narcissistic, Machiavellian, bombastic, bastards.

I reiterate , A POX ON THEM ALL, MAY THEY ALL GO TO HELL.

WOW ...

Govt took the nominal tax rate applicable to all..but you feel they stole from you, maybe they should return the tax you paid and tell you to use your own hospitals and schools and roads etc ..or repay the actual costs that you and your family have ever have incurred from public tax payer funded systems, a whole family with 1 tax payer ..your way in front IMHO...

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Offline briann532

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Re: Work for the dole
« Reply #143 on: August 18, 2015, 08:37:33 PM »
I'm certainly no economist, and don't claim to know about it, but it seems there are countless rules and regs and policies that try to manipulate the system for whatever benefit. This depends on who's side of the fence you're on as to how you view it.

Simplify it.

Flat tax rate.
whatever is turns out to be it is.....
10%, 15% or 45% or anywhere it needs to be, its a fair simple system.
No loopholes, no exemptions no business rates, no ancillary taxes, just a flat turnover rate.

Impossible to rule - yes. Impossible to implement - yes. Impossible to budget on - yes. So of course it will never happen, but how good would be?

A simple thing to remember.
Tax was designed to pay for the services the government provide to the community.
It was not meant to be a system of welfare lifestyle. Nor was it designed to accommodate for rorting.

Integrity and honesty are the problem not the tax system or economic system.
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Offline stabicraft

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Re: Work for the dole
« Reply #144 on: August 19, 2015, 07:22:17 AM »
Thats the problem jetcrew, it dont apply to all.
If you are a multinational, rich, or have a means and way to fiddle the tax you dont pay it.
Its only the poor sods who work for a living that pay all the tax.

The pollies are all in the pockets of these people and have no intention of rocking the boat.

Pauleen Hanson had the right idea, and was very quickly ostracized, prosecuted and put in gaol for daring to suggest an effective way to prevent tax rorts.

She suggested a flat tax rate applicable to each and every money transfer.
Let me ex[plain
3% tax every time money changes hands or is transferred.
For you and me that means, you pay 3% for having your wages transferred into the bank, you pay 3% for taking it out and you pay 3% to spend it on something............total tax 9%.

But the devil is in the detail.
Banks transfer money all over the country and world on a daily basis, trillions and trillions of dollars every single day.
They do this to avoid tax, cant tax money that's not there right?
Multinationals pay no tax at the moment and send billions of dollars off shore, not if they pay a 3% tax they don't.

By adopting the flat 3,4 or even 5% tax to ALL money transfers, govco would soon have more money than they could spend, people would have more cash to spend, Australian businesses would pay less tax and importers would have more competition.
All of which would be better for the economy and Australian people.

The downside
No more tax dodges, multinationals would have to pay millions perhaps billions in tax and banks, that do not actually make anything, would have to pay billions in tax.
And therein lies the crux, these big players feed cash into govco coffers and would be very very angry if they had to actually contribute.
So it will never happen, and after the Hanson exercise, no one will be game to bring it up again.

So who really rules the country, not the pollies, they are just the useless, parasites that people target instead of the real movers and shakers.

Offline paceman

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Re: Work for the dole
« Reply #145 on: August 19, 2015, 07:33:20 AM »
WOW ...

Govt took the nominal tax rate applicable to all..but you feel they stole from you, maybe they should return the tax you paid and tell you to use your own hospitals and schools and roads etc ..or repay the actual costs that you and your family have ever have incurred from public tax payer funded systems, a whole family with 1 tax payer ..your way in front IMHO...

Jet ;D

+1...

at least we in australia can see some benefit with the taxes we pay (roads, schools, health).  a lot of other countries don't.

whilst the idea of flat tax rates and other simplistic ideas all sound good in theory, i am sure there are many valid reasons why they won't work. 

i'm not naive enough to believe that running a country's finances is the same as running a business, i'm afraid.  there are many different variables that we are just not privy to...

also, to those who think that the government takes all of our money now, why wouldn't they adopt a simpler tax system (as described in previous posts) that gives them more money? 

makes no sense to me..

yes, i'll agree that our tax system is not perfect, but it's a damn site better than some alternatives.


Offline Oldandslow

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Re: Work for the dole
« Reply #146 on: August 19, 2015, 07:45:59 AM »
Governments are put in place by donations from big business, any talk of a flat tax rate would stop those donations in a flash. A flat tax rate is a simplistic solution to the tax fiasco and it would work but it will never happen because the 3% of the population that have 90% of the countries money and pull the strings would then have to pay their share.

Offline paceman

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Re: Work for the dole
« Reply #147 on: August 19, 2015, 08:01:29 AM »
Governments are put in place by donations from big business, any talk of a flat tax rate would stop those donations in a flash. A flat tax rate is a simplistic solution to the tax fiasco and it would work but it will never happen because the 3% of the population that have 90% of the countries money and pull the strings would then have to pay their share.

last time i checked, just about anyone could run as an independent and be elected to parliament and make a difference in the house of reps or the senate.  it's happening right now in qld, in particular.

nothing to do with being a party, with donations apparently running things.  if you hate it that much, do something about it.

this idea that big business pays no tax is simply laughable.  big business, just like you and me and everyone else, tries to minimise the tax that they pay.  that's not illegal. 

no-one is disagreeing that the tax system could be improved. 

the middle class does not generate enough tax revenue to run the country.  full stop.  big business pays a buttload of tax. 

the perception is that they don't pay enough, compared to what you and i pay.  big difference between our perception and the reality.

next time you get a chance to actually look at the tax code, take a close look at what medium to large businesses actually have to pay tax on, then you might get a different perception.




Offline Hewy54

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Re: Work for the dole
« Reply #148 on: August 19, 2015, 08:57:31 AM »
Such a shame that some feel so negative about the way the country is run. Any model for government has its faults. By running a system od Capatalist/Socialist I believe we get the best of both worlds. It does get up my nose sometimes that large companies appear to pay little or no tax, but I wonder haw much of this is hearsay.
We must be doing something right to have the standard of living we are lucky to enjoy.
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