Declining competency in our graduating tradespeople

[Mallory Black]

read an interesting article in the CM today about the poor standards of "qualified" tradespeople.
I did my trade in the late '70's and we had a grading system of fail, pass, credit, honour.
I busted a gut to get good marks and came out of my 3 years with credits and honours.
that was enough of a result so that as soon as I turned 21 I automatically qualified for "A" Grade Mechanic.

Seems that the current rating of "competent" or "not competent" does nothing to show a prospective employer if he has a sharp person or a dud.

Now it appears it's been made worse by putting apprentice training in the hands of private companies and "Cert 3"

I think a lot of fellow swaggers also have a trade background. I's like to hear some of your thoughts

[ozbogwam]

I can't comment on that aspect but what is interesting is lately there are lots of very skilled craftsmen setting up shop doing great work. It appears that pride in learning old skills is making a reappearance which is great to see.

[Muckinhell]

Im with you Mallory, I myself am a 37 yr old 4th year apprentice sparkatician, and one of the first things i noticed when starting the tafe etc was that you only get a competent/not competent mark on the modules that are completed. I started with doing a pre vocational course of my own back and ended up including in my job applications, my results sheet that showed what %'s I passed my modules with and have ever since been keeping my own record to show any prospective employers in the near future should i need it. I do believe having this result sheet landed my full apprenticeship in 2009 right in the midst of the GFC
As it stands in electrical in Qld a 50% pass is all thats needed minimum to obtain an electrical licence after completion of a capstone assesment during your 4th year among other profilling arrangements to be signed off. also if you do fail one of the modules you only have to resit that module to pass and you are then graded as a %50 pass no matter what for that module. Cross my fingers i have so far passed with out resiting to date and this is my last week of tafe for 4th year.
I am aghast at some of the students in my class who work for the local supply authority and their results and the amount of money they make as apprentices is just ludicrous along with the fact that even with my above results it wasnt enoupgh to get in with that supply authority myself. It just comes down to the final interview and one wrong placed or lack of word.



 

[Chippy76]

It is interesting that you have brought this up, as we were discussing this at work recently ....

First my background, Im a 36yo Carpenter, who has done extensive work in all facets of domestic carpentry(this is sounding like a matchmaker ad all of a sudden .. lol) I live and work ina country QLD town some 2 1/2 hrs form Brisbane.

The boys I work with all did their time out here. The blokes who do it now dont even do "class time", all their tafe work is completed via coomputer. Now while I do understand how technolgy can help in delivering country people training packages, I think that some of these blokes are missing the basics of training. For example we have a 21 yo qualified chippy who is one year out of his time, and when asked to scribe cornice and skirting, he looked at us with a blank expression. Now this is VERY basic skill that I would expect a carpenteer to know. But sadly he had no idea.

The other "older bloke" on site and I often just shake our heads ....... :S

Cheers Chippy

[Symon]

Im with you Mallory, I myself am a 37 yr old 4th year apprentice sparkatician, and one of the first things i noticed when starting the tafe etc was that you only get a competent/not competent mark on the modules that are completed. I started with doing a pre vocational course of my own back and ended up including in my job applications, my results sheet that showed what %'s I passed my modules with and have ever since been keeping my own record to show any prospective employers in the near future should i need it. I do believe having this result sheet landed my full apprenticeship in 2009 right in the midst of the GFC
As it stands in electrical in Qld a 50% pass is all thats needed minimum to obtain an electrical licence after completion of a capstone assesment during your 4th year among other profilling arrangements to be signed off. also if you do fail one of the modules you only have to resit that module to pass and you are then graded as a %50 pass no matter what for that module. Cross my fingers i have so far passed with out resiting to date and this is my last week of tafe for 4th year.

This is the exact reason why the capstone test was re-introduced in QLD.  The ESO had little faith in the 'quality' of the training by the RTO's/TAFE colleges, so the capstone was the final 'check' to make sure at least they had the basics right.  It isn't uncommon to see apprentices finish all their TAFE modules, but have to sit the capstone 4 or 5 times before passing.

[Kalebjarrod]

Try checking out qualified horticulturalists

These days there just a bloke with ute and a shovel ( and they don't even know how to use the shovel )

The cert 3 is a joke

[Hairs]

G'day Chippy,
As you know mate I'm a wood butcher as well 
I agree with you, My Tech teacher( I did my theory of a night till 10pm after busting a hump for nearly ten hours each day) who was a working builder earning an extra quid teaching Tech, the little tricks of the trade he taught us, things I take for granted now, they come second nature.
These skills I believe tradies these days are missing. It seems to be about how many power tools you can carry in ya trailer, although some of them are handy bits of kit at times 
I guess it's the same for Spanner Swingers, How many would know how to tune a Holley 600 Squarebore sitting on a 351Cleveland by ear?

 

[GeoffA]

..........For example we have a 21 yo qualified chippy who is one year out of his time, and when asked to scribe cornice and skirting, he looked at us with a blank expression. Now this is VERY basic skill that I would expect a carpenteer to know. But sadly he had no idea.....

I hope you instructed him in the correct method.

It's not his fault that the system has been pulled apart.........

 

[Black Diamond]

I work in the construction industry as a labourer and get to work with all different trades from concreters, to sparkies and plumbers etc and some of the young generation apprentices lack the enthusiasm, passion and work ethic that is clearly still evident in older tradesman as if they are there just there for the money and that's all. The skill level between the older and younger generation (qualified) is quiet evident (in most cases) that I have seen and that's just my opinion.
I'm sure there are plenty around in this generation that defy this and are guns but this has been my experience so far.

In saying that I've had a bad experience with and older chippie who built a deck around our spa and pool a couple of years ago that has collapsed. Can't get in touch with the old prick, if I do god help him 

BD

[bullfrog]

A timely thread as it was on this day in 1988 that I signed my apprenticeship papers........
I did my time ( mechanic) at a place where it was done "the old way". I think that part of the problem is that a lot of middle aged tradesmen are getting out the game & as such the knowledge isn't being passed on.  Some apprentices are being "taught" on site by blokes who are just out of their time themselves. They haven't had the experience themselves, so how the hell can they pass anything on.  Couple that with some of the younger generations attitude to being told something ( let alone getting off their ar$e & DOING something)& is any wonder some of our new tradesmen are a bit lacking.Classrooms & books can only do so much, the rest has to be learned ( & taught) in a hands on fashion. "Learn by doing" was a saying I heard a lot.
I'll be 43 this July, still employed as a mechanic but not main stream automotive anymore. I may be wrong, but that's the way I see it.
PS.. Had a chuckle at the Elec 50% pass mark. Is graded as fried & survived??

[tanz]

I personaly don't think the grading of apprentices counts for much. I finished my apprenticeship with honours in the early nineties, and saw a number of guys only just pass with probably as much if not more talent than I at the time.

I'm still in the trade, most of those guys aren't, and a number of them bring their vehicles to me now for repairs. The difference is I love what I do, they didn't.

I've had through my business, over the past 15 or so years, about 8 apprentices or trainees and all but one lasted no longer than 2 years due, I feel in part at least, to my work ethic. One left for a dealership and was fast tracked through their apprenticeship (whom I told wasn't fit to be a 3rd year apprentice yet), whilst others found their way into the mines (appologies to any mine workers or dealership folk, but as a rule up here at least they seem to accept anyone who can breath without instructions). The only one that has stuck it out is almost ready to turn tradesman, and he has such pride in his work that some days he has a dig at me if he thinks I may be a little lazy with the product we offer our customers.

The secret is pride in a trade, and unfortunately, it's not there in the current generation (as a whole). Trades are not sought after, nor believed to have any worth. It's now seen as something they could do, so they have something to fall back on later, not a career.

Sorry if that comes across as a rant, but I've been looking for a new apprentice for nearly 12 months and the majority just don't cut it in my eyes even for a start. I've started a young fella who just isn't getting the whole pride in your workplace/ work/ self even. Maybe tomorrow he'll understand!

[MR MAC GU]

I have been panel beating for 23 years.

On Wednesday this week we have a 4th year coming out of his time. He is hopeless. It doesn't matter how hard you try and teach someone the right way to do things. It seems the tafe teacher comes along and teaches them to take short cuts and makes jobs easier for them selves.

I think it's all about this generation only wanting a job and that's about it.

I myself pride myself on quality work and I am well known in the industry for my abilities on major smash work. Even though I don't work on the floor these days I still get assessors ringing me and asking me to fix certain jobs as they can't find anyone who can do it.

It really is a dying trade, everyone only wants to fit new parts these days and there ain't no money in that!


Sent from Behind you...BOO

[Marschy]

With the ongoing downturn in the building industry, my son (a first fix carpenter) often hears of apprentices being signed off before they have completely finished their training so their employer can let them go. He gave me an example of a chippie being signed off who hadn't even completed the roofing module but is now working in Adelaide and can't build a conventional roof unless it is truss construction.

[Garfish]

Is also very similar in professions as well as trades

[Chippy76]

With the ongoing downturn in the building industry, my son (a first fix carpenter) often hears of apprentices being signed off before they have completely finished their training so their employer can let them go. He gave me an example of a chippie being signed off who hadn't even completed the roofing module but is now working in Adelaide and can't build a conventional roof unless it is truss construction.

Sadly Marschy pitched roof construction is rarely taught at TAFE in QLD. Trusses are the way of the future apparnetly .... unless you are doing an exposed hardwood ceiling ..... :S

Cheers Chippy

[Turbojohn]

I'm a 33 yo chippy,  done my time with my father (a builder) doing every aspect of the trade plus more. I chose this trade because I wanted to be a chippy/builder and a good one!
Currently I'm a supervisor for a medium size building company and see plenty of trades come and go. All too often when I ask apprentices and tradesmen how or why they got into the industry the answer is I needed a job! It really annoys me as to how many keen people miss out because of these dust kickers!
Another problem is with our so called skills shortage they are just pumping these kids through their trade courses without them becoming Tradesmen.  Finally there are the employers who use apprentices as cheap labour and not take the time to teach them anything so when they become a tradesman and get their own apprentice. ........ The downhill slide continues!
Lots of tradesmen around but masters of their trade are few and far between!
Rant over!

[Dogsbreakfast]

Too busy updating their facebook status.

[Marschy]

Straight out of my sons cert 3 in carpentry manual. The national code numbers have since changed so no point in quoting them, but third year is all about roof construction, the unit descriptions are apparently still similar. A third year appy my son supervises is at school this week learning the following...

Third year

Unit Title
Construct  ceiling frames
Construct a pitched roof
Construct eaves
Construct advanced roofs
Erect roof trusses

If they don't teach this in cyclone prone QLD, wow I'd be gobsmacked

[Black Diamond]

Too busy updating their facebook status.

Spot on mate Facebook is the worst thing that has happened to this generation of workers and Employers.

[brickiematt]

....... and some of the young generation apprentices lack the enthusiasm, passion and work ethic that is clearly still evident in older tradesman as if they are there just there for the money and that's all. The skill level between the older and younger generation (qualified) is quiet evident (in most cases) that I have seen and that's just my opinion.

........ Couple that with some of the younger generations attitude to being told something ( let alone getting off their ar$e & DOING something)& is any wonder some of our new tradesmen are a bit lacking.Classrooms & books can only do so much, the rest has to be learned ( & taught) in a hands on fashion. "Learn by doing" was a saying I heard a lot.

I think bullfrog and BD have nailed it IMO. I've been laying bricks for 20 years now, and a bad case of the CBF's seems to have gotten into a lot of the younger blokes! There is no passion for the trade they do, no pride in their work; they just seem to want a quick buck by doing as little as possible.
Even when I was an apprentice, a lot of the guys at trade school were there because they didn't want to be at school, and the parents have given them an ultimatum to get a job or else. So they fell into bricklaying, which they really don't want to do either cos its too much like hard work, or its not one of the "glamour" trades.
I got into bricklaying as my grandfather was one. I remember being fascinated that he could build something with his bare hands, and be proud of it. I love my job, and take pride in my work. That is something that is very hard to instill into todays youth. (not all of them are that bad tho )
Having said all that, I work for a big mob, and we have anywhere up to 10 apprentices. As a foreman, I need to make sure our young blokes are learning their trade. Three of them are Burmese refugees who we sponsored 4 years ago. They have since become qualified brickies, and without a doubt are some of the hardest working, skilled blokes we have. Some of our "home grown" apprentices would do well to take a leaf out of their book.

Cheers
Matt

[Canaussie]

Try checking out qualified horticulturalists

These days there just a bloke with ute and a shovel ( and they don't even know how to use the shovel )

The cert 3 is a joke

Cert 3 a joke heh, I think only to those incompetent readies that try to sneak by. I currently hold a Cert 3 for which I had to earn to get an electrical licence. Unfortunately with our younger generation its all about what they don't have to do to get qualified. The system grants the TAFE teachers no power to fail them anymore.




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[Mallory Black]

Indeed, it has to start with pride in your chosen skill but having said that some guys that get in are not cut out for it, and the only way they fiond out is to at least have a go and have the balls to say that it's beyond them. Others just.... drift through.. too stupid to realise how poor they are at their work.

I think the most dangerous things I've done is work near apprentices but when I was an apprentice there were a couple of tradies who might have felt the same LOL!

[Marschy]

My son is about to embark into a partnership with a bloke who he did his appreticeship with. Their plan is to take on an apprentice as soon as their workload permits.

My son did a pre-vocational course to get his apprenticeship and was then recommended to a builder who contacted the TAFE where he did his course who was looking for the keenest and brightest from the pre-voc course. My son plans on doing the same.

His current employer took on an apprentice who was a friend of his family who is hopeless, and due to his close association with his family is now reluctant to get rid of him.

There are smart ways of getting enthusiastic apprentices.

[Mace]

As I work for a TAFE Provider, ill make a couple of comments:

Its very hard to get good trades teachers.  Why put up with the low wages and job insecurity, most are sessionals or contract. We have some very dedicated teachers who have low job security.

The teachers do have the power to fail them, but the $$ return to the TAFE is much less for a NC or WD result.

WE (GOTAFE) have invested over $13million in the last 4 years in Traditional Trades facilities, but then see private providers who work out of the back of a truck poach employers by offering to train their apprentices off campus/on site for less$$.

With all the Commonwealth Money around at the moment, every high school seems to be putting in a new trades wing to teach Cert 3's with no industry connections. I worry about the job competency of these students.

We work in partnership with employers, and employ Centre Managers and Industry liaison staff to ensure the employer gets what they want.  Our Industry  Satisfaction results are running at 90% plus. We have some big ones, SPC, Furphy's, etc, who take a big interest in their Apprentice's training program.  It would be great if all employers did this.

We actively form linkages with young students and schools thru VCAL programs, and then work to get the students into work experience programs in our TAFE Tester programs.  We have had many great ongoing employment stories come from this program, particularly Koorie Students.

We then wonder why Metropolitan funding models are then applied to Regional areas, and force us to drop programs that increase workforce capacity at a local level, but only just break even, forcing local kids to have to seek further studies away from home. Very disheartening for all.

[nab]

Its not just the trade skills though. I work by myself and do things to make my job easier eg never go back to the ute empty handed. Trying to instil these ideas into the young blokes is bloody hard work, just think about the job a bit before you touch the tools!