Post by: D4D on April 23, 2020, 07:41:55 AM
Like everybody else I have some home time on my hands at the moment so I have been revisiting solar.
Got a couple of quotes, they range from the cowboy 'you'll save 1 billion dollars with solar' to the detailed engineering style dudes, which is prefer.
We use power in the morning and evening, no pool or refrig aircon, only a couple of fridges on during the day, latest bill daily average is 18KW.
Our house faces north but the panels need to be on the west roof line due to wife acceptance factor.
West roof line is on the high side of the street with no shade at all to the west or north during the day.
Current electricity distributor has a 5KW max infeed limit.
The quote I am favouring is - 19 Jinko panels 6.2KW total, Fronius Primo 5KW Inverter, with an estimated 20KW per day output, $10K before rebates, with the federal rebate that makes it $7K.
Current infeed rate of 15 cents = $1100 in credit per year best case = 7 year ROI.
To me 7 year ROI is still a long time, what am I missing?
Post by: Bird on April 23, 2020, 08:12:53 AM
Someone on here was involved with Solar from memory... They were saying if your not home during the day when the most power is available - wasnt worth it - unless you have batteries.. they charge up during day, you use morning/night from batteries
Post by: D4D on April 23, 2020, 08:22:01 AM
Someone on here was involved with Solar from memory... They were saying if your not home during the day when the most power is available - wasnt worth it - unless you have batteries.. they charge up during day, you use morning/night from batteries
Yeah I have come to that conclusion also. Batteries add another huge cost that pushes the ROI way out. You'd get a better return putting the cash in a 10 year bond.
Post by: plusnq on April 23, 2020, 08:23:19 AM
Post by: db on April 23, 2020, 08:26:13 AM
Post by: chester ver2.0 on April 23, 2020, 09:03:02 AM
There have been a few threads on this.
Someone on here was involved with Solar from memory... They were saying if your not home during the day when the most power is available - wasnt worth it - unless you have batteries.. they charge up during day, you use morning/night from batteries
That was the same conclusion and info i got when i was quoted last year and also had an engineering friend look it over. As it is only the 2 of us and both of us are out during the day most days of the week it was not worth it unless batteries were included to store the power during the day and we would use it at night and be almost off grid
Post by: Beachman on April 23, 2020, 09:36:04 AM
So for the run of the mill set up (6.2KW total, 5KW Inverter) 3 or the 4 were priced within $50 at around $5 394. The 4th company was Origin who were by far the most expensive by around $1 000, but their sales pitch is to pay the bill off over 3 years with your power bill.
A mate who is an electrical engineer recommended I ask what a bigger system would cost (Only because in summer this would cover the running cost of our ducted A/C during summer during daylight hours)
So I also got a quote for a 8.19KW with a 7.5KW Inverter which came in at $222 more expensive than the above system. But I have to say all power companies cap at 5KW what you can send back to the grid, so my theory is by the time we take account the pool pump and maybe a dishwasher/washing machine or TV going, I’m still sending power back to the grid.
Our power bill was always around $500-$600 per quarter (We have gas hot water and cooktop) Since Solar our first full quarter bill was $148 in credit (But we were away for 3 weeks in summer which helped) and our second bill was $131 debit, (But this was in the middle of summer of the A/C copped a flogging) so Zero seeing I kept the above credit on my account.
We have 26 panels in total, 16 of these are facing North as that’s all that would fit and then had the option to put the other 10 East or West. Seeing my Wife does the housework in the morning dishwasher/washing machine/vacuuming in the morning, we put the 10 facing East for the morning sun.
In December on a clear day they were producing a total of 50.2kWh with the worst for an overcast day down to 24.73kWh according to the app on my phone.
Come April on a clear day they were producing a total of 43.25kWh with the worst on an overcast day down to 18.26kWh according to the app on my phone.
These amounts will reduce as the days get shorter, but I have to say that while Origin was the most expensive, his forecasts on that the systems would produce were the most accurate.
For us to major benefit of Solar is in Summer when the family says it hot and askes about A/C. Instead of saying let’s hold off a little longer it’s a straight turn it on.
Post by: Fizzie on April 23, 2020, 10:17:58 AM
We put solar in (against objections from Mrs ;D) early so we got big FiT rebates, so our was paid off <3 years 8), but as DB said, 7 years is nothing to be sneezed at ;D
Post by: GeoffA on April 23, 2020, 10:19:14 AM
......But I have to say all power companies cap at 5KW what you can send back to the grid......
....unless you have 3 phase, then it's 30kW (for us, some are 15kW max) and away we go.... ;D ;D
Who needs batteries??... :P
:cheers:
Post by: MB TD42 on April 23, 2020, 11:19:36 AM
Battery tech needs to be advanced to counter the rolling blackouts.
Bit like how a power supply protector works for your home or business.
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Post by: WilSurf on April 23, 2020, 11:32:52 AM
....unless you have 3 phase, then it's 30kW (for us, some are 15kW max) and away we go.... ;D ;D
Who needs batteries??... :P
:cheers:
We have 3 phase, but still capped to 5kW as we are not as business.
Post by: GeoffA on April 23, 2020, 11:36:50 AM
We have 3 phase, but still capped to 5kW as we are not as business.
Bummer....
Post by: GBC on April 23, 2020, 11:54:16 AM
We did a deal that we continued paying the same as what we would pay on a usual bill. Paid itself of in just under 5 years - about 5 years ago. It is a no brainer. We could only fit 3.5 kw on the roof (solar HWS in the road), but we bought the best gear knowing it is a long term bet.
Post by: Bird on April 23, 2020, 01:15:10 PM
http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=55591.msg970050#msg970050 (http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=55591.msg970050#msg970050)
Post by: KeithB on April 23, 2020, 02:16:10 PM
We have 10KW of LG solar panels on the roof, each with its own mini inverter, and a 14KWH Tesla battery. The whole thing came to about $29K. As I write this we have 6.6KW coming off the roof with almost all of it going back into the grid because the battery is full.
I did a discounted rate of return spreadsheet based on the following assumptions.
1. We would generate all of our own power for the 25 year life of the panels.
2. The battery would hold out for that period. I reckoned that a replacement battery in 10 or 15 years time would be much cheaper than now.
3. That power would escalate in cost by 2% a year from here on.
This gave an equivalent rate of return of just over 11 per cent per annum. That's better that we can get in super. Incidentally, the ten year government bond rate is currently just 0.83 per cent per annum.
Keith
Post by: BC66 on April 23, 2020, 08:36:51 PM
I worked for a solar component wholesale business a while back.
A few things to consider when buying is what components are used as there is a big difference, remember you get what you pay for.
Ask for data sheets on panels, you may not understand what’s written but compare everything.
Panels do degrade, have cyclone ratings etc.
They are forever evolving and getting better. Buy what you need now and don’t plan for the future because as panels age they may not be compatible with newer panels and you could have to replace all of them if you plan to upgrade later.
Read the warranty carefully on batteries, especially the LG and Tesla.
A 10 year warranty is not that straight forward. It’s based on data collected within the battery and depends on depth of discharge and cycles.
These batteries are very clever.
Same goes with inverters. Buy quality, look up reviews, compare.
You may notice the ads on tv for cheap systems, but have you noticed the name of the supplier is always changing? It’s often the same company, buys cheap products , goes broke and restarts up again under a new name
Any way that’s my tips and 2 cents worth.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Post by: D4D on April 24, 2020, 07:51:11 AM
Post by: GeoffA on April 24, 2020, 08:46:01 AM
I don't see an allowance for a reduction in your power bills in your ROI calcs. Seems to be based purely on FIT. Have you included it?
A big consideration for us installing solar was that we can pay for it while we are still working, and we'll have reduced bills when retirement hits in a few years.
Our installation fully covers both electricity and gas bills, but that's not available to everyone.
:cheers:
Post by: xcvator on April 24, 2020, 09:14:50 AM
Post by: Mace on April 24, 2020, 09:21:58 AM
I don't see an allowance for a reduction in your power bills in your ROI calcs. Seems to be based purely on FIT. Have you included it?
Even down here in Tassie, an average of 37% of our produced energy goes to powering our home instead of FIT. We have had our system since November, and the 2000 approx kw we have used directly since then has reduced our bills by $360 in total.
Our $500 per quarter (summer bills) have reduced to less than $100.
Its been a no brainer for us, and we are not home all day.
:cheers:
Post by: Fizzie on April 24, 2020, 09:36:19 AM
Post by: Bird on April 24, 2020, 09:40:57 AM
His gas and electric have been free ever since as he gets a chq back for the feed back amount which covers gas...
The issue he has is if something fails, or he wants to upgrade, then he loses that original feedback $ amount and goes onto the latest $ amount :(
but the feedback $$ amount now is a pittance.
Dirty prick
Post by: GeoffA on April 24, 2020, 09:56:41 AM
Wazbot on here got onto the solar gig when it FIRST came out and the sell back to grid prices were huge...
I don't think that's forever, though.....
.....but the feedback $$ amount now is a pittance.
For us, the FIT ends up being about half the buy price, after pay on time discounts.
:cheers:
Post by: Fizzie on April 24, 2020, 10:26:28 AM
Wazbot on here got onto the solar gig when it FIRST came out and the sell back to grid prices were huge...
His gas and electric have been free ever since as he gets a chq back for the feed back amount which covers gas...
He's not the only one! 8)
Quote
The issue he has is if something fails, or he wants to upgrade, then he loses that original feedback $ amount and goes onto the latest $ amount :(
My understanding is that if something dies, & we replace it with the same level of equipment, then the full FiT continues ??? At least, that's in Qld - may be different elsewhere ???
Quote
Dirty prick
You're welcome 8) :-*
Post by: Fizzie on April 24, 2020, 10:27:30 AM
I don't think that's forever, though.....
2028, unless they change the rules in the meantime ??? :'(
Post by: GeoffA on April 24, 2020, 10:30:59 AM
2028, unless they change the rules in the meantime ??? :'(
I thought 2022 or 2023. Good luck to those that got in early, although system prices have dropped a lot too....
Post by: Fizzie on April 24, 2020, 10:36:06 AM
I thought 2022 or 2023. Good luck to those that got in early, although system prices have dropped a lot too....
No 1/7/28 for Qld
https://www.qld.gov.au/housing/buying-owning-home/energy-water-home/solar/feed-in-tariffs/solar-bonus-scheme-44c (https://www.qld.gov.au/housing/buying-owning-home/energy-water-home/solar/feed-in-tariffs/solar-bonus-scheme-44c)
& to keep the full (44c) FiT
ensure you replace any component with a like-for-like part
replace your inverter with one of the same, or smaller size (although you'd be nuts if you did!)
Post by: GeoffA on April 24, 2020, 10:42:20 AM
It doesn't say when in 2024, so I'd expect it cuts out 31/12/2023.
Same rules apply WRT mods to the system...
:cheers:
Post by: Spada on April 24, 2020, 10:50:47 AM
In our case, we installed a 5kw system that cost $10,300 around 8 to 10 years ago (cant remember exactly when?). At the time our average bill was $800 to $1000 a quarter. We were luck and locked in the 55c feed in tariff, and our buy price is 23c. Our daily production is around 25kw, depending on the whether and time of year. We are hi consumption users as we have 5 fridges, 2 water pumps (house tank & shed tank), an enviro HSTP which runs an air pump 24/7 and sulage pump on float valve, a pond with 2 constant supply water pumps and UV filters, heated spa on a timer, and we're lazy and leave everything on standby.
For us, the system was paid for from consumption savings and feed in rebates after roughly 7 years according to the meter on the inverter. We still get a bill every quarter, but in summer its about $70 to $100, and in winter it goes up to around $200. We could most likely reduce the bill if we better managed when we used our energy so we used more at night and less during the day so we fed more back at the higher rate, and once the feed in tariff reverts to the standard 8c I'll probably put a concerted effort into it.
Post by: Bird on April 24, 2020, 10:55:08 AM
Quote from: GeoffA
I thought 2022 or 2023. Good luck to those that got in early, although system prices have dropped a lot too....Waz says
original $$ ends 23/24 ...
it was 66c, now about 80c per kwh feed in
Post by: GeoffA on April 24, 2020, 11:00:27 AM
Waz says
original $$ ends 23/24 ...
it was 66c, now about 80c per kwh feed in
https://www.energy.vic.gov.au/renewable-energy/victorian-feed-in-tariff/premium-feed-in-tariff (https://www.energy.vic.gov.au/renewable-energy/victorian-feed-in-tariff/premium-feed-in-tariff)
60c + gst = 66c
No mention of 80c. Special deal maybe??
Post by: moeite on April 24, 2020, 11:02:14 AM
Post by: GBC on April 24, 2020, 12:12:50 PM
No 1/7/28 for Qld
https://www.qld.gov.au/housing/buying-owning-home/energy-water-home/solar/feed-in-tariffs/solar-bonus-scheme-44c (https://www.qld.gov.au/housing/buying-owning-home/energy-water-home/solar/feed-in-tariffs/solar-bonus-scheme-44c)
& to keep the full (44c) FiT
ensure you replace any component with a like-for-like part
replace your inverter with one of the same, or smaller size (although you'd be nuts if you did!)
My understand also. We are on the 44c tariff also. I am guessing in about 8 years going to batteries is going to look like a viable option for us with one or both kids gone (maybe????) and the tariff changeover. At present we would need 2 x battery modules to keep up and the payback isn't there.
Post by: Bird on April 24, 2020, 12:14:21 PM
Quote from: GBC
My understand also. We are on the 44c tariff also. I am guessing in about 8 years going to batteries is going to look like a viable option for us with one or both kids gone (maybe????) and the tariff changeover. At present we would need 2 x battery modules to keep up and the payback isn't there.
and in 8 yrs the tech on batteries will be amazing and they will be so much cheaper. but would you need as much battery without the kids - which also makes it worlds cheaper.
Post by: Fizzie on April 24, 2020, 12:32:25 PM
I am guessing in about 8 years going to batteries is going to look like a viable option for us with one or both kids gone (maybe????) and the tariff changeover.
That's much my thoughts.
We've got 5.2 of panels feeding 2 inverters of 4.8 total, that produce ~low 20 kWh per day, of which we use ~7, export ~15, while also buying ~7 - virtually all of which is overnight, but if we run aircon, that goes up to 8-10.
So, when the 44c runs out, I'll probably put another 5kW on the roof, together with a battery, which, as Bird says, should be much cheaper & betterer all round than now! ;D
Post by: BC66 on April 24, 2020, 09:28:38 PM
He's not the only one! 8)Problem is you can’t buy the same level equipment now.
My understanding is that if something dies, & we replace it with the same level of equipment, then the full FiT continues ??? At least, that's in Qld - may be different elsewhere ???
You're welcome 8) :-*
We had a heap of old inverters and installers snapped them up to keep
People on the same rates of there was a failure. Finding old compatible parts is hard and those rates have an expiry date.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Post by: Symon on April 25, 2020, 06:41:04 AM
They were saying if your not home during the day when the most power is available - wasnt worth it - unless you have batteries.. they charge up during day, you use morning/night from batteries
That's only partially right, it is about moving the majority of your loads to the middle of the day to make the best use of the solar. If you have electric hot water take it off Tariff 33 and put it on a timer to come on at about 10am in the morning. Same with things like pool pumps, washing machines, dishwashers, etc. I have a server rack that has my backup NAS in it - I've set it up to turn on at 11am, run the backups, and then turn off rather than have it run all the time. Anything being run in the middle of the day isn't costing me anything.
My wife and I aren't home during the day but with the solar and by moving our loads around our power bills went from $500 a quarter to less than $50.
6.6kW of panels on a 5kW inverter, cost $7k 2 years ago and it should have paid for itself in about 2 years.
If I was going to do it again I would have went for a larger array (panels are cheap) and for about a 7kW inverter that is export limited to 5kW. This way you can power your big loads for free and still get some feed in return.
Post by: weeds on April 25, 2020, 09:41:01 AM
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Post by: GeoffA on April 26, 2020, 06:50:27 AM
..... If you have electric hot water take it off Tariff 33 and put it on a timer to come on at about 10am in the morning......
Hi Symon,
I've looked into this a couple of times and, for us, I'm not convinced....
Our off-peak hot water tariff is 18c/kWh. After pay-on-time discounts it ends up around 12c/kWh....about the same as the FIT. If we were to move the reheat time to between 10am-4pm, there'd be good sunny days where the solar would do the job (ie costing us the 12c/kWh that would have gone to the grid), and cloudy days where we'd pay the peak rate on any additional power drawn from the grid (ie 22c/kwh after pay-on-time discounts).
The property in question has a 6.6kW system with a 5kW Fronius inverter. This is in Melbourne, so there will be some difference in the solar yield.
If I was going to do it again I would have went for a larger array (panels are cheap) and for about a 7kW inverter that is export limited to 5kW.....
That ^ would help, but not sure that it would be cost effective in our situation.
I've decided we'll leave the hot water reheat time where it is to lock in the off-peak tarriff, but I'm happy to be enlightened if I've missed anything....
:cheers:
Post by: lloydus67 on April 26, 2020, 08:29:17 AM
Hi Symon,
I've looked into this a couple of times and, for us, I'm not convinced....
Our off-peak hot water tariff is 17c/kWh. After pay-on-time discounts it ends up around 12c/kWh....about the same as the FIT. If we were to move the reheat time to between 10am-4pm, there'd be good sunny days where the solar would do the job (ie costing us the 12c/kWh that would have gone to the grid), and cloudy days where we'd pay the peak rate on any additional power drawn from the grid (ie 22c/kwh after pay-on-time discounts).
I've decided we'll leave the hot water reheat time where it is to lock in the off-peak tarriff, but I'm happy to be enlightened if I've missed anything....
:cheers:
One the savings you have not taken into account is the $90 charge per quarter. (approximately $1/day I believe is the going rate) to have that tariff on
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Post by: GeoffA on April 26, 2020, 08:40:20 AM
One the savings you have not taken into account is the $90 charge per quarter. (approximately $1/day I believe is the going rate) to have that tariff on
Thanks. Will look into it.
:cheers:
Just checked. No such charge on the statement (VIC).
Post by: Symon on April 26, 2020, 04:49:48 PM
Hi Symon,
I've looked into this a couple of times and, for us, I'm not convinced....
Our off-peak hot water tariff is 18c/kWh. After pay-on-time discounts it ends up around 12c/kWh....about the same as the FIT. If we were to move the reheat time to between 10am-4pm, there'd be good sunny days where the solar would do the job (ie costing us the 12c/kWh that would have gone to the grid), and cloudy days where we'd pay the peak rate on any additional power drawn from the grid (ie 22c/kwh after pay-on-time discounts).
The property in question has a 6.6kW system with a 5kW Fronius inverter. This is in Melbourne, so there will be some difference in the solar yield.
That ^ would help, but not sure that it would be cost effective in our situation.
I've decided we'll leave the hot water reheat time where it is to lock in the off-peak tarriff, but I'm happy to be enlightened if I've missed anything....
:cheers:
Yep, you need to run the numbers based on your situation. I just have an issue with the advice of 'if you aren't home during the day it isn't worth it' as that isn't the same for everyone, and I would argue it isn't the same for the majority either.
There are a lot of variables, size of the system, orientation of the panels, your usage patterns, the FIT, the supply charges, etc. You need to take that all into account and work it out for yourself.
Kirsty and I are hardly ever at home during the day, and our system has been totally worth it.
Post by: GeoffA on April 26, 2020, 05:26:32 PM
Yep, you need to run the numbers based on your situation. I just have an issue with the advice of 'if you aren't home during the day it isn't worth it' as that isn't the same for everyone, and I would argue it isn't the same for the majority either.
.....
I agree. In my experience, anything on full tariff should be timed to run when solar can help, but it's not so clear-cut if an off-peak tariff is involved.
Our own residence has 28+kw of panels on the roof, through 2 x Fronius 3 phase inverters. ("If 1 inverter is good...." ;D)
It's been in for just under 12 months, so I'm not yet sure to what extent our bills will be covered.
It completely covers all of our electricity and gas bills, with some left over for others.
Kay and I are not usually at home during the day either, but it has also most definitely been worth it.
:cheers:
Post by: Symon on April 26, 2020, 06:44:36 PM
I hope you got a Fronius smart meter with that, if you did can you send me the link?
Here's mine - https://www.solarweb.com/Home/GuestLogOn?pvSystemid=fe8580e0-0d4e-4cba-8286-315fd87241d8
Post by: GeoffA on April 26, 2020, 06:59:57 PM
Export limited to 10kW?
I hope you got a Fronius smart meter with that, if you did can you send me the link?
Here's mine - https://www.solarweb.com/Home/GuestLogOn?pvSystemid=fe8580e0-0d4e-4cba-8286-315fd87241d8
Export limited to 30kW ;D..(3 phase)
Sure did.
Link sent via PM
:cheers:
Post by: MDS69 on April 26, 2020, 08:23:50 PM
Yep, you need to run the numbers based on your situation. I just have an issue with the advice of 'if you aren't home during the day it isn't worth it' as that isn't the same for everyone, and I would argue it isn't the same for the majority either.
There are a lot of variables, size of the system, orientation of the panels, your usage patterns, the FIT, the supply charges, etc. You need to take that all into account and work it out for yourself.
Kirsty and I are hardly ever at home during the day, and our system has been totally worth it.
Can someone experienced with solar installs offer advice on the efficiency of eastern facing panels. Our house faces west and the house is wider than it is deep so we really only have east or west aspects to install the panels on and I am not keen to put them on the front of the house, especially being a red coloured roof tile.
Post by: D4D on April 26, 2020, 08:28:44 PM
Can someone experienced with solar installs offer advice on the efficiency of eastern facing panels. Our house faces west and the house is wider than it is deep so we really only have east or west aspects to install the panels on and I am not keen to put them on the front of the house, especially being a red coloured roof tile.
As I understand it, north facing is the best, west is next best you get afternoon power, east is next best you get morning power, south don't bother. We're planning on west facing panels as our house faces north and the wife said no to panels on the street facing roof.
Post by: GBC on May 03, 2020, 02:05:00 PM
Post by: Mace on May 03, 2020, 03:55:09 PM
As I understand it, north facing is the best, west is next best you get afternoon power, east is next best you get morning power, south don't bother. We're planning on west facing panels as our house faces north and the wife said no to panels on the street facing roof.
Check out for shading duration from any nearby trees before deciding. Any partial shading of any individual or all panels for any length of time will hit panel output for 6.
Our panels face the street facing North, no trees in any line of sight at any time of the day.\. We bought the house because of its aspect and intent to install solar. If it comes down to not putting them in the optimal position and thence maximising output due to "aesthetics" then with respect I think down the track you may regret the install.
This site has some good info and a solar guide can be downloaded.
https://www.solarquotes.com.au/lp/goodsolarguide/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwtLT1BRD9ARIsAMH3BtVw2yxTUNPMG78zhQYph-ODcl-C9gywXr2sOzWM45oAbaptzz8-gQgaAgQCEALw_wcB (https://www.solarquotes.com.au/lp/goodsolarguide/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwtLT1BRD9ARIsAMH3BtVw2yxTUNPMG78zhQYph-ODcl-C9gywXr2sOzWM45oAbaptzz8-gQgaAgQCEALw_wcB)
https://www.solarquotes.com.au/solar101.html (https://www.solarquotes.com.au/solar101.html)
(https://i.ibb.co/bPx2pNn/solarweb1.jpg)
Im a bit anal about looks, I think the installer did a good job in aligning things......
A native ground cover garden is in the planning stage - I hate mowing....
:cheers:
Post by: achjimmy on May 04, 2020, 05:09:44 PM
Post by: JCOJ on May 11, 2020, 04:32:33 PM
We're with Origin for our power and they pay a 18c feed in tarrif and allow up to a 10kw system (which we got away with as our inverter is 10kw).
It is the best thing we did and regret not doing it earlier.
Post by: Pete79 on June 19, 2020, 11:45:45 PM
We get a little bit of shading from a big gum tree on the council road side, so we’re looking at an optimized system with each panel having it’s own dc/dc converter.
These panels and 3 phase inverter is a little more expensive then some of the cheaper simple systems out there, but we’re banking on the much better efficiencies of this system improving our ROI considerably.
Post by: GeoffA on June 20, 2020, 05:31:43 AM
Just finished crunching our numbers and the 10kw 3 phase system (producing approx 40kwh/day) we’re looking at should be around a 3 year ROI based on our current average consumption of 23kwh/day and a feed in tariff of 17c.
We've averaged 82kwh/day from our 28kW system, but we are in Victoria, so your 40kWh/day seems reasonable.
If only we could get a 17c FIT....
We get a little bit of shading from a big gum tree on the council road side, so we’re looking at an optimized system with each panel having it’s own dc/dc converter.....
Is that an Enphase system, or a TIGO optimiser on each panel?
When we were looking at it, the Enphase system locked you into their battery system.
A mate went with TIGO's on his 6.6kW sytem, and is very happy.
:cheers:
Post by: lloydus67 on June 20, 2020, 06:23:59 AM
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Post by: PWE on June 20, 2020, 07:26:58 AM
....unless you have 3 phase, then it's 30kW (for us, some are 15kW max) and away we go.... ;D ;D
Who needs batteries??... :P
:cheers:
How easy is it to change a house connection from single to three phase?
Post by: PWE on June 20, 2020, 07:30:52 AM
We put a large system in about 18 months ago and have not had an electricity bill since. We have a pool and are all electric except for the cooktop. We also connected the off peak water heater to the solar to come on mid afternoon. Our panels face almost due west.
We have 10KW of LG solar panels on the roof, each with its own mini inverter, and a 14KWH Tesla battery. The whole thing came to about $29K. As I write this we have 6.6KW coming off the roof with almost all of it going back into the grid because the battery is full.
I did a discounted rate of return spreadsheet based on the following assumptions.
1. We would generate all of our own power for the 25 year life of the panels.
2. The battery would hold out for that period. I reckoned that a replacement battery in 10 or 15 years time would be much cheaper than now.
3. That power would escalate in cost by 2% a year from here on.
This gave an equivalent rate of return of just over 11 per cent per annum. That's better that we can get in super. Incidentally, the ten year government bond rate is currently just 0.83 per cent per annum.
Keith
I have a similar system.
Have not seen a power bill since I have installed it and receive a nice cheque in October for the previous years feed-in surplus.
So every September I start at zero and get paid the credit in October.
Post by: GeoffA on June 20, 2020, 07:41:11 AM
How easy is it to change a house connection from single to three phase?
Talk to your local sparky and supplier.
As far as I'm aware, it's just a matter of money....
:cheers:
Post by: Pete79 on June 20, 2020, 07:49:44 AM
We've averaged 82kwh/day from our 28kW system, but we are in Victoria, so your 40kWh/day seems reasonable.It’s actually a Solar Edge system.
If only we could get a 17c FIT....
Is that an Enphase system, or a TIGO optimiser on each panel?
When we were looking at it, the Enphase system locked you into their battery system.
A mate went with TIGO's on his 6.6kW sytem, and is very happy.
:cheers:
Instead of the microinverters on each panel they use a dc/dc optimizer on the panel and a simplified inverter on the wall.
The length and position of strings doesn’t matter and the specific panels we’re looking at have smaller zones and perform better with partial shade.
You can track each individual panel performance similar to the Enphase system and the app looks pretty cool.
This is not the company we’re using for our system, but this is a pretty clear explanation of the panels we’re using.
https://www.infiniteenergy.com.au/new-release-canadian-330w-hiku-canadian-solar-split-cell-panels/ (https://www.infiniteenergy.com.au/new-release-canadian-330w-hiku-canadian-solar-split-cell-panels/)
https://youtu.be/xmovy6xqUO8 (https://youtu.be/xmovy6xqUO8)
Post by: Pete79 on June 20, 2020, 07:53:39 AM
How easy is it to change a house connection from single to three phase?We did 3 phase when we built the house, there was a couple of threads on here a few years ago with people looking at upgrading their house/shed to 3 phase, from memory it was a bit of a hassle.
FYI; Here in QLD we are only allowed to export 5kw per phase from solar.
Post by: GeoffA on June 20, 2020, 08:06:53 AM
It’s actually a Solar Edge system.
Instead of the microinverters on each panel they use a dc/dc optimizer on the panel and a simplified inverter on the wall.
The length and position of strings doesn’t matter and the specific panels we’re looking at have smaller zones and perform better with partial shade.
You can track each individual panel performance similar to the Enphase system and the app looks pretty cool.
....
We looked at Enphase and Solar edge, but most of our roof is pretty clear of shade. In winter we lose a bit early and late in the day, but not enough to worry about.
We have 20 TIGO optimisers on the panels that are impacted by flues, vent pipes etc, but it would have been prohibitive as well as unnecessary to fit them to all 90 panels.
:cheers:
Post by: Craig Tomkinson on June 20, 2020, 08:19:12 AM
Post by: Pete79 on June 20, 2020, 08:22:25 AM
Best I can get in Brisbane is 16c for first 5kw then drops to 10c with red energyAGL are doing 17c for systems up to 10kw, but it’s a variable rate. :(
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
And pricing is due to be reviewed at the end of this month, so we’re not signing any contacts right at this moment.
Post by: GeoffA on June 20, 2020, 08:25:23 AM
FYI; Here in QLD we are only allowed to export 5kw per phase from solar.
Most residential properties struggle to fit enough panels to export more than 5kW, no matter the number of phases.
:cheers:
Post by: Craig Tomkinson on June 20, 2020, 08:52:57 AM
Post by: bmwfreak on June 20, 2020, 09:16:19 AM
and a feed in tariff of 17c.Bloody Nora, we have the choice of one retailer, or no retailer. Started off 3 years ago with feed in of 10.8c and now down to 7.6c.
Craig - we have 15 x 340 panels on the shed roof. They were described by the salesman, at the time, as ‘Industrial size’ which we needed due to lack of roof space for the more common ‘domestic size’ For the 5kw we wanted.
Post by: Craig Tomkinson on June 20, 2020, 07:53:14 PM
Post by: achjimmy on June 20, 2020, 08:43:23 PM
It’s actually a Solar Edge system.
Instead of the microinverters on each panel they use a dc/dc optimizer on the panel and a simplified inverter on the wall.
The length and position of strings doesn’t matter and the specific panels we’re looking at have smaller zones and perform better with partial shade.
You can track each individual panel performance similar to the Enphase system and the app looks pretty cool.
This is not the company we’re using for our system, but this is a pretty clear explanation of the panels we’re using.
https://www.infiniteenergy.com.au/new-release-canadian-330w-hiku-canadian-solar-split-cell-panels/ (https://www.infiniteenergy.com.au/new-release-canadian-330w-hiku-canadian-solar-split-cell-panels/)
https://youtu.be/xmovy6xqUO8 (https://youtu.be/xmovy6xqUO8)
We have a SolarEdge system and have been very happy for the 5mths so far. Using 330watt blade panels. I got onto origin with 21c feed in just before they dropped it to 18c so it’s 21c till feb next year.
Post by: lloydus67 on June 21, 2020, 07:11:17 AM
Most residential properties struggle to fit enough panels to export more than 5kW, no matter the number of phases.Hi Geoffa
:cheers:
I have a 4.5 kw micro inverter system, 2 panels per inverter
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200621/3fc43afcc5960678d38bfe1c92891676.jpg)
This is my bill for 29 days in may. Well and truely winter, short days
179 kw generated, so average 6.2 kw per day
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: GeoffA on June 21, 2020, 07:51:56 AM
Hi Geoffa
I have a 4.5 kw micro inverter system, 2 panels per inverter
This is my bill for 29 days in may. Well and truely winter, short days
179 kWh generated, so average 6.2 kWh per day
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hi Lloyd,
I was talking kW. Your bill has quoted kWh. They are different....
By the way, your FIT and service charges look pretty good. Better than mine, anyway...
:cheers:
Post by: bmwfreak on June 21, 2020, 10:04:39 AM
Post by: Pete79 on June 23, 2020, 06:36:45 PM
I was reading through all of the contract documents today and noticed that the inverter actually has a 12 year warranty (and 25 years on the rest of the hardware).
This gives me a couple more years before I need to factor in that replacement cost. :cheers:
And I did a bit more shopping around for electricity plans today as well. Looks like I've found a winner.
Currently paying $1.26 per day supply charge, new plan is 99c.
Currently paying 27c/kwh, new plan is 26c.
Feed in tariff is 18c/kwh.
All locked in for 12 months.
I've made a few assumptions and down played the actual solar production due to some potential shading issues.
They say a 10kw system should produce 42kwh/d, I'm doing my numbers with an average of 38kwh/d.
We currently consume an average of 23kwh/d, I've made some guesses on running the new pool pump and estimated an average of 28kwh/d?
Also took a stab in the dark for our day time/night time usage. We're home all day and I only run my office AC on the extreme days, all of the cloths and dishes washing is done during the day and the whole house runs on LED lights.
But anyway, I've just made some assumptions and chucked some numbers into a very basic spreadsheet to get a rough idea of how this investment will look for us.
Basically no matter which way I cut it, we're looking at a 3 year payback.
Even going really silly with my usage numbers I still couldn't stretch it out to get to the 4 years.
Pretty happy with this choice. :cup:
Post by: Fizzie on June 24, 2020, 08:48:30 AM
Basically no matter which way I cut it, we're looking at a 3 year payback.
Even going really silly with my usage numbers I still couldn't stretch it out to get to the 4 years.
Pretty happy with this choice. :cup:
:cup:
Go to it, Pete ;D
Post by: austastar on June 24, 2020, 10:49:08 AM
My numbers are pretty rough, (2015)
$1000/ year usage.
$7000 install cost.
$0 running cost from installation date.
Gain a few hundred dollars credit every year which will erode when the feed in tariff drops from parity (28c) to 7c.
Only regret?
They changed the meter to digital. I loved watching the old spinning disk running backwards. Very therapeutic.
Cheers
Sent from my SM-T380 using Tapatalk
Post by: briann532 on July 08, 2020, 05:36:13 PM
There have been a few threads on this.
Someone on here was involved with Solar from memory... They were saying if your not home during the day when the most power is available - wasnt worth it - unless you have batteries.. they charge up during day, you use morning/night from batteries
GUILTY as charged.
Yes, I do this for a living (sometimes as well as being a wirejerker and people pisser offerer!!!!)
If I can't design a system for a client that has a 3 year ROI (return on investment) then something is wrong.
Had a few clients not happy as shading, roof space etc led to much longer return periods.
It then simply isn't worth it.
Half the time they end up with a sales company promising the world and they get had. Hey I tried I sleep well.
Seriously though if you can't get a 3 year payback period get a better designer on board. The technology is there and the equipment is affordable.
Batteries. Well the weather has been pretty good lately hasn't it?
Post by: Bird on March 25, 2021, 09:14:08 AM
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-25/australians-with-rooftop-solar-charged-export-electricity-grid/100026336 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-25/australians-with-rooftop-solar-charged-export-electricity-grid/100026336)
Post by: paceman on March 25, 2021, 10:27:08 AM
wait till everyone signs up .. and then -> Australians with rooftop solar panels could soon be charged for exporting power into the grid, under proposed changes
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-25/australians-with-rooftop-solar-charged-export-electricity-grid/100026336 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-25/australians-with-rooftop-solar-charged-export-electricity-grid/100026336)
what a shock. not.
impacts to the existing grid were brought up ad nauseum and basically ignored when these solar export tariffs were first introduced and discussed...
will be very interesting to see how this goes...
Post by: Pete79 on March 25, 2021, 11:25:28 AM
When the owners of said poles and wires invested over $46 billion a few years ago they told us that the 45-50% increases we saw in our power bills was because they had built this indestructible infrastructure, just for us.
Now these same companies are telling us that the gold plated network is actually really fragile, so fragile it can't handle a few people getting free power from the sun and they'll need to increase our power bills.
So just trying to work out if it was total BS back then or is it total BS now....
Or is it just all BS all the time from both the energy companies and their friendly regulators..... ???
Post by: paceman on March 25, 2021, 11:52:21 AM
it's not about the network being fragile. the network in qld is as good and resilient as it has ever been. yes, in large part due to plenty of $$$
when the network was being upgraded, large scale solar was not on the agenda. some of these network upgrade decisions were started 20 years ago.
the current network model (not just here but in many countries) we have was/is based on large scale generation, and distribution out to consumers, not back in from consumers. and that overall model is 60-70 years old, in some cases.
no-one has a crystal ball. easy to criticise when you have the benefit of hindsight.
i know i won't change your mind. but, there are some of us that have a bit more insight into the inner workings of the electrical grid here in qld.
do i think that people should be charged to export power? no.
do i think that the original tariff setup was deluded and ridiculous? yes.
i've said my piece. there are two sides to this story.
Post by: below sea level on March 25, 2021, 11:57:53 AM
Post by: Mace on March 25, 2021, 01:04:11 PM
I'll be interested to see how many people line up for expensive batteries once they have to pay to export. I personally try to export as little as possible from my system as the real saving comes from actual usage, not FIT. Even then, on a normal day I still export more than I use while the sun is down.
Same here...
We will be adding batteries to our system at some stage. I would do it tomorrow IF:
- we were encouraged to feed back in peak times when additional supply was required (to offset reducing coal fired supply capacity)
- and if we received an appropriate (higher) tariff to do this.
A pity that current Governments (all of them) cant get their heads around a regulatory framework that fits the 21st Century.
Post by: Pete79 on March 25, 2021, 01:21:41 PM
don't want to get into an argument, mate.Hopefully this can stay as a civil discussion by all.
it's not about the network being fragile. the network in qld is as good and resilient as it has ever been. yes, in large part due to plenty of $$$
when the network was being upgraded, large scale solar was not on the agenda. some of these network upgrade decisions were started 20 years ago.
the current network model (not just here but in many countries) we have was/is based on large scale generation, and distribution out to consumers, not back in from consumers. and that overall model is 60-70 years old, in some cases.
no-one has a crystal ball. easy to criticise when you have the benefit of hindsight.
i know i won't change your mind. but, there are some of us that have a bit more insight into the inner workings of the electrical grid here in qld.
do i think that people should be charged to export power? no.
do i think that the original tariff setup was deluded and ridiculous? yes.
i've said my piece. there are two sides to this story.
I think we all understand and agree that our power network is old and wasn’t originally designed for so much (if any) domestic solar production.
But I’m personally pretty cynical with the language around this current issue (just as I was back when they were free to increase our bills as and when they pleased).
The interview with the regulator on the news this morning was almost unbearable to watch.
When the regulator says operators should be able to charge “a small fee” to customers, but only when the customer has created “traffic jams” on the network, alarm bells are ringing everywhere.
I’m very interested to see if when I get my “small fee” added to my bill, will I also be given a copy of the network map and they show me exactly where my power caused the “traffic jam”.
Sounds like an open checkbook policy to me.
I don’t expect this proposal will be enough to convince most people to invest in batteries to run their houses totally off grid just yet.
But I do expect this will be a nice little earner for the power companies.
Post by: paceman on March 25, 2021, 01:38:09 PM
will I also be given a copy of the network map and they show me exactly where my power caused the “traffic jam”.
i have no info about the regulator part in this...
the 'traffic jam' will most likely be conductor size to the transformer (TX) or the transformer itself...
in a lot of cases, whole streets/housing estates are hooked up to solar, and the 'jams' occur because the conductor installed (to the TX or from TX to TX) was never designed to handle the loads produced by solar on houses.
generally, the network has been designed in such a way that conductor size gets smaller, as you transition through from generation (biggest), transmission (smaller) and distribution (smallest for 240V).
to alleviate the solar export issues, conductor sizes have to get bigger, especially in the distribution space (ie: from house to distribution TX, and from distribution TX to zone TX, to a lesser degree).
if the conductor is too small for the solar load pushing back through it, there will be a consequence (ie: heat and higher voltages, which the conductor and the network is not built to handle)
even powerlines stringing from pole to pole are affected by this higher heat and voltage, because when they heat up due to higher voltage, they will sag (sometimes to a great degree, 5+ metres in some cases) causing a safety issue as well as a voltage issue.
the transformer itself may not be capable of handling the power coming back into it (think of it like a dam wall, with a full dam behind it, and then an equal amount of water hits the dam wall from the other/dry side). the consequences of that happening to a large distribution TX or a zone TX could be catastrophic.
these types of issues are being rectified over time, but this isn't an instant fix. it's possible a 20-40 year job to re-configure the entire QLD network.
I think we all understand and agree that our power network is old and wasn’t originally designed for so much (if any) domestic solar production.
and that is a huge part of this issue. the expectation is that the network can just be modified on a whim, or in a very short time frame. it just isn't possible. and to make these changes costs $$$.
where does that extra $$$ come from? and it is extra $$$, not just the existing maintenance $$$ provided by the regulator, which are reducing over every 5 year span.
in the end, this inability for the network model to be changed quickly (through no fault of it's own) is a perfect reason why the original 44c tariff scheme was misguided and poorly thought out in the early stages.
Post by: Hairs on March 25, 2021, 03:46:49 PM
Quote
Australians with rooftop solar panels could soon be charged for exporting power into the grid, under proposed changeshttps://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-25/australians-with-rooftop-solar-charged-export-electricity-grid/100026336 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-25/australians-with-rooftop-solar-charged-export-electricity-grid/100026336)
Looks like I'll be saving for batteries.
Bastards keep changing the goal posts. >:D
Edit, Tried posting using firefox on my phone, kept reverting to Tappatalk, sorry
:(
Post by: Bird on March 25, 2021, 03:56:41 PM
Hey Guys don't get too carried away with installing Solar.https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-25/australians-with-rooftop-solar-charged-export-electricity-grid/100026336 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-25/australians-with-rooftop-solar-charged-export-electricity-grid/100026336):p
Looks like I'll be saving for batteries.
Bastards keep changing the goal posts. >:D
Edit, Tried posting using firefox on my phone, kept reverting to Tappatalk, sorry
:(
http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=57203.msg1034965#msg1034965
Post by: jclures on March 25, 2021, 08:50:06 PM
This was the reason the feds pushed through to force there states to sell there power assets to private companies to bring down the price of power. ???
Post by: lloydus67 on March 25, 2021, 09:28:52 PM
Because everyone knows privatisation reduces costs.
How does the merry go round go
Government sells an industry to private business as they know how to run it and reduce costs.
(Read little maintenance and even less capital expenditure)
Costs raised to increase profits.
Then private industry, needs government handouts (our tax dollars) to support a failing out of date industry and agree to price hikes to pay for replacement infrastructure that we already bought in the first place with our tax dollars.
Sent from me
Post by: Bird on March 26, 2021, 08:54:59 AM
Quote from: jclures
... to sell there power assets to private companies to bring down the price of power. ???
but nobody believed/s that this will ever happen.... nobody. yet they always go ahead and sell off Shit we own shortsighted.
Post by: paceman on March 26, 2021, 09:13:05 AM
but nobody believed/s that this will ever happen.... nobody. yet they always go ahead and sell off Shit we own shortsighted.
+1...
certain things should be government owned...
energy infrastructure (including fuel and refining capacity)
communications infrastructure
transport infrastructure (roads, bridges, etc)
Post by: Onion on March 26, 2021, 11:52:32 AM
+1...
certain things should be government owned...
energy infrastructure (including fuel and refining capacity)
communications infrastructure
transport infrastructure (roads, bridges, etc)
Post by: prodigyrf on March 26, 2021, 12:45:43 PM
I'll be interested to see how many people line up for expensive batteries once they have to pay to export. I personally try to export as little as possible from my system as the real saving comes from actual usage, not FIT. Even then, on a normal day I still export more than I use while the sun is down.
You nailed the problem with the fallacy of composition that we could all chuck up lots of solar panels and dump on the communal grid to keep our bills down. It's OK when a minority do it with beggar thy neighbour bill costs but not when we all do it and welcome to the solar duck curve not to mention fickle wind- https://anero.id/energy/wind-energy/2021/february (run your cursor over that graph to see the extreme variability between the peaks and troughs).
So what was really needed right from the start with these unreliables was a level playing field. ie Any tenderer of electrons to the communal grid must be able to reasonably guarantee them 24/7/365 along with FCAS (ie short of unforeseen mechanical breakdown) or keep them and use them themselves. As consumers we all need reliable dispatchable power at the correct voltage and frequency. We had that with large centralised hub and spoke FF spinning mass generation but now increasingly it's reactive spaghetti and meatballs with its concomitant costs. Same deal public or private.
Reliable means storage to iron out those horrible outputs to steady average performance but as rooftop solar owners we know batteries won't cut it economically. Besides if we do install expensive Powerwalls etc to overcome the problem we wouldn't have any power to export anyway. So what's the answer with all that installed rooftop solar if it's not wanted with feast or famine and batteries are too dear? On top of that we're all supposed to be charging our future EVs at home at night with coal going and no evening off peak so have a guess when peak rates will apply then?
The answer is to go all electric (gas has to go too remember) and use the solar power to heat cheap electric storage HWS and any left can go into airconditioning the home ready for homecoming-
https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/divert-solar-air-conditioning/
https://www.solarquotes.com.au/hot-water/pv-diverters/
Get with the program folks as your dumped electrons aren't wanted anymore by your equally dumping neighbours so use it or lose it.
Post by: Fizzie on May 12, 2021, 06:58:06 AM
It's showing that since we put a new inverter in on 18/9/2020, we have produced exactly 5 MWh ;D
Post by: DrewXT on May 12, 2021, 09:03:32 AM
So turned the computer on this morning, & checked the solar readout as always, just to make sure everything is working OK.
It's showing that since we put a new inverter in on 18/9/2020, we have produced exactly 5 MWh ;D
Our current system (10.2 kW Enphase with Jinko Panels) has been in since 12/2/2019 and we just clicked over 30 MWh :o I stopped looking at it for a while, but not unhappy....
I think one of the issues with rooftop solar is that the solar farms are being given precedence for supply, which makes sense commercially, but it's a bitter pill for those of us who've put a heap of money on our roof.... Our next thing will be either Redback or Enphase batteries (depending when the CEC approve the new, big Enphase one), as our feed-in tariff has been dropped from 22c to 10c, despite being contracted.... :(
Post by: manchu on May 12, 2021, 10:28:10 AM
It's showing that since we put a new inverter in on 18/9/2020, we have produced exactly 5 MWh ;D
Since 19/11/2020 install we've hit 5.5 MWh from our 10.3kW of panels & 8kW inverter. Too bad were limited to 5kW export or we would have produced quite a bit more.
Post by: Fizzie on May 12, 2021, 02:06:43 PM
I should have added that we've only got 5.2 kw of panels feeding a 4.6 kw inverter, so we're very happy with those results!
Post by: prodigyrf on May 18, 2021, 10:48:20 PM
Well it seems the climate changers believe they're going to change the climate blowing up coal fired power stations and getting rid of gas so it's obvious when they do that there will be no more off peak power rates at night. In fact when we're all running around in Tesla EVs and charging them up at night peak rates will logically be outside the solar duck curve from 10am to 3pm say. So how best to use big solar arrays and their output during that majority other peak time? Well you need to be thinking going all electric and use it or lose it and that's where solar diverters will come in handy-
https://www.catchpower.com.au/ (Aussie made)
Yes the cheapest storage will be to use your solar duck curve glut to heat an inexpensive electric storage HWS and going as big as possible with cheap solar any spare could be used to aircondition the home awaiting your return. https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/divert-solar-air-conditioning/
Post by: prodigyrf on May 19, 2021, 12:55:16 AM
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-29/government-gas-fired-power-plant-nsw/100102888
Still I guess it's an improvement on State Gummints like SA and Tas rolling out the diesel gennys when it looks like the food in the fridge is gunna go off among other unpleasantries. Meanwhile the commies in China now produce 52% of the world's coal fired power presumably so we can buy solar panels wind turbines and EVs off them and save the planet. As the famous man said- 'You know it makes sense!'
Post by: Bird on May 19, 2021, 09:50:04 AM
Quote from: prodigyrf
OTOH the Federal Gummint finally recognizes that our power grid needs to be dispatchable with the correct frequency and voltage if the lights aren't to go out-Wont happen in our lifetime.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-29/government-gas-fired-power-plant-nsw/100102888
Still I guess it's an improvement on State Gummints like SA and Tas rolling out the diesel gennys when it looks like the food in the fridge is gunna go off among other unpleasantries. Meanwhile the commies in China now produce 52% of the world's coal fired power presumably so we can buy solar panels wind turbines and EVs off them and save the planet. As the famous man said- 'You know it makes sense!'
'Mr Morrison cited modelling from the government's Liddell taskforce which suggested power prices in NSW could rise by 30 per cent if that capacity is not replaced.'
that will happen anyway.
Post by: Pete79 on May 19, 2021, 01:11:22 PM
In case Scotty forgot what they really should be building, the hint is in the name..... ::)