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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: corndog on September 12, 2017, 04:15:43 PM

Title: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: corndog on September 12, 2017, 04:15:43 PM
The government is spouting off about making things cheaper for consumers. Guess what I got today. A notice for a rise of power and gas charges. Looks like Turnbull really scared them. Time to switch..... Again.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on September 12, 2017, 05:03:25 PM
The government is spouting off about making things cheaper for consumers. Guess what I got today. A notice for a rise of power and gas charges. Looks like Turnbull really scared them. Time to switch..... Again.
we just switched.. and went backwards.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: krisandkev on September 12, 2017, 06:28:19 PM
Come on, hard to blame him. It all started when each government started to sell off the power stations etc.  Now you have big companies whos job is to make money.  Just be glad you can switch. We have no choice because we do not live in south east Queensland.  Kevin
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: JusyApples on September 12, 2017, 06:36:37 PM
Unrealistic clean energy targets
Governments unwillingness to build new coal or nuclear power plants
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on September 12, 2017, 06:52:52 PM

Governments unwillingness to build new coal or nuclear power plants

They are all scared....of their own jobs. With the green wave sweeping the world, no one in this country anyway, are game to build a coal powered station, even though we will need them for at least a fair few yrs yet ....
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on September 12, 2017, 06:56:05 PM
The government is spouting off about making things cheaper for consumers.

It's never going back to how it was, best case scenario is they can fiddle around the edges and slow the increases but prices are only going one way with the transition to renewables.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Nomad on September 12, 2017, 07:04:49 PM
I just did the one big switch thing..........don't know if it will change much but was sick of paying origin stupid amounts of money.....if buy now switching round energy providers I can help bring more competition to the market I will do so to atleast try and keep the snouts from the trough
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: glenm64 on September 12, 2017, 08:18:08 PM
I just did the one big switch thing..........don't know if it will change much but was sick of paying origin stupid amounts of money.....if buy now switching round energy providers I can help bring more competition to the market I will do so to atleast try and keep the snouts from the trough
Yeah right, just like the petrol companies.
They dont screw us either.

Cheers Glen

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: speewa158 on September 12, 2017, 08:24:37 PM
Turn the power off , don't use it . That will show them your meaning business  , or lack there of  ;D                 Go camping forever or cough up            :cheers:
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: briann532 on September 12, 2017, 08:28:22 PM
Turn the power off , don't use it . That will show them your meaning business  , or lack there of  ;D                 Go camping forever or cough up            :cheers:

Or run your house like you do at camp..............

Minimise power usage and go solar. Gas for cooking and wood for heating.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: JusyApples on September 12, 2017, 09:14:24 PM
They are all scared....of their own jobs. With the green wave sweeping the world, no one in this country anyway, are game to build a coal powered station, even though we will need them for at least a fair few yrs yet ....
Yet they are happy to export our coal across the globe
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: corndog on September 12, 2017, 09:27:01 PM
Or run your house like you do at camp..............

Minimise power usage and go solar. Gas for cooking and wood for heating.

Do all of the above. But with my 3 kids  they don't like camping, and they don't have to pay it.   :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bill on September 12, 2017, 09:29:24 PM
Come on, hard to blame him. It all started when each government started to sell off the power stations etc.  Now you have big companies whos job is to make money.  Just be glad you can switch. We have no choice because we do not live in south east Queensland.  Kevin
No choices here either...
Bill
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Cruiser 105Tvan on September 12, 2017, 09:29:59 PM
Yet they are happy to export our coal across the globe

Not just Coal, have a look at our LNG & LPG export figures over the last 20+ years.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: listo on September 12, 2017, 09:37:58 PM
I don't like to be political on this site... or any other, I hate politics, but that's privatisation for you. Everyone will go up every year, just like rego, but private with most likely be higher.
One to to remember for the Queenslanders here
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: arjay on September 12, 2017, 10:39:02 PM
The bit I have trouble with is who approves the increases each year  - is it a Govt dept that allows the price rises?
If so, why don't we have better regulation on that instead of a talk fest.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: edz on September 12, 2017, 10:48:28 PM
Stuff the lot of them, Watch reruns of Back to the future and Chinese engineer the Flux Capacitor, get the  Plutonium from O'l Kim Jong and power the Flux capacitor, No more power or fuel problems  ..
Mean while brace to be rear ended and reamed by Government and anyone else that controls those consumables, Oh and start becoming self sufficient with your own food and everything else you like, as its going to go through the roof in cost too .
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: prodigyrf on September 12, 2017, 11:30:35 PM
Here's the problem-
http://anero.id/energy/wind-energy/2017/june (http://anero.id/energy/wind-energy/2017/june)
and naturally we all know about solar when the sun don't shine.

Now Australia's wind turbines (and they're largely in my State of SA) produce on average typically 30% of installed capacity over the year but you can see that hides a multitude of sins re reliable voltage and frequency and a lot of expense goes into the network to overcome those shortcomings both for wind and solar.

With the taxpayer subsidies and mandated 'renewable' power naturally that's lead to a lot of subsidy mining by everyone from large scale wind farms to rooftop solar for homeowners which has left thermal power stations to pick up the insurance tab for which they haven't been paid. Consequently the owners have been running them on sticky tape and string in order to extract the last drop of revenue from them before they close one by one as we're witnessing. Solar and wind energy have negligible marginal cost to produce so naturally they've been engaged in a form of dumping on the national grid, aided and abetted by taxpayer subsidy but the day of reckoning is fast approaching with their lack of despatchability.

What should have happened is no tenderer of electrons to the communal grid should have been allowed to tender anymore than that which they could reasonably guarantee (ie short of unforeseen mechanical breakdown) 24/7, all year round to level the playing field. That way these unreliables would have had to invest in storage (batteries or pumped water storage, etc) and/or partner with thermal generators in order to lift their average tender amounts and pay them their just insurance premiums. That hasn't happened and now it's time to pay the Green piper or face the rolling blackouts.

Essentially we haven't begun to pay the true cost of these unreliables but nobody wants to admit that and hence all the political funk going down at present. If you think the public circus can run power stations of whatever type more efficiently than private enterprise then you're part of the problem too, but if Gummint in their divine wisdom decides to actively encourage subsidy mining and snouts in the taxpayer trough then that's where the AGLs, etc will go to get a feed as they're not Mother Theresa.

In SA, Premier Weatherill is now rolling out diesel generators and Mr Tesla's battery (another subsidy miner par excellence) What! Not more solar panels and windmills Premier? Instead it's diesel gennys to gulp 80,000 litre of diesel an hour and a big lithium battery as a tourist attraction! What does that tell you? 
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: suby on September 13, 2017, 12:05:23 AM
To be fair, or governments have NOT invested in required infrastructure. And still not doing the correct thing. The power stations that will be closing down over the next few years are stuffed. Apparently Liddell is only running at about 40 to 55% capacity in recent times because of old infrastructure, the thing has had it. Its the worst possible decision to keep it running, its going to be a money pit to keep online.

Renewable energy is now the cheapest kind of new power generation that can be built today, less than both new coal and new gas-fired power plants and reducing. I saw Lateline on TV the other night and interestingly Solar pumped storage is a third of the cost to run then gas, and according to professor Andrew Blakers working on the example project in Katters seat, QLD has many many sites that could be used in QLD alone for the type of generation.

From the link: http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2016/s4729057.htm (http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2016/s4729057.htm)
There's more than enough space in Townsville to provide all the storage required for a 100 per cent renewable electricity system for the whole of Australia.

I don't think the current government has considered its own expert chief scientist Dr Finkel report, and is pushing coal for its mining mates interests.  We should be investing in better grid technologies and local storage to get over our problem. We have NO leadership in my view.

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on September 13, 2017, 06:53:47 AM
The main thing we need is base load power. These ideas about pumped storage etc are just that, ideas. Good to be thinking outside the square, but we need power now, not in 5 yrs time when some of these new ideas "might" get off the ground.
Pumped storage still doesn't supply base load 24/7.......it still doesn't account for a week of rain ..
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: suby on September 13, 2017, 08:45:18 AM
but we need power now, not in 5 yrs time when some of these new ideas "might" get off the ground.

We are stuffed then. The old coal power stations are not running at full capacity now, in 5 years time they will be even worse, and a money pit in terms of cost.  Investing in grid technology so we can shift power around and storage are still a better investments according to the experts, then putting a tone of money into old coal.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on September 13, 2017, 09:43:46 AM
Quote from: arjay
If so, why don't we have better regulation on that instead of a talk fest.

That's all governments do "Look into it"..
They are Shit sacred of all these big companies right down to Coles/BigW/Bunnings/Energy/Fuel/ etc etc Why do you think they only threaten to "NAME AND SHAME" fuel companies - that we already know who they are? Imagine if these fuel companies pulled out of AU... or the energy companies? or if any of these big employing companies decided they didn't want to take any more governments Shit... how many low skilled workers do Coles/Big W/Bunnings etc employ... 
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: MDS69 on September 13, 2017, 12:31:26 PM
They are all scared....of their own jobs. With the green wave sweeping the world, no one in this country anyway, are game to build a coal powered station, even though we will need them for at least a fair few yrs yet ....

World wide there are approximately 60 nuclear power stations under construction.
Apparently China earlier this year suspended construction and/or planning of 85 coal fired power stations

Australia needs to grow some balls and build nuclear power stations.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: edz on September 13, 2017, 03:47:36 PM
World wide there are approximately 60 nuclear power stations under construction.
Apparently China earlier this year suspended construction and/or planning of 85 coal fired power stations

Australia needs to grow some balls and build nuclear power stations.
Lifted from a Nuclear imformation page ..
That is probably the biggest risk with nuclear: It takes so long to see a return on investment, if one comes at all. Imagine you start building a nuclear power plant today. If, at some point in the next two decades, some hardworking genius builds a battery capable of storing wind or solar energy, scrubs the carbon out of coal emissions, or plugs the methane leaking from natural gas, the odds of there being a market for your expensive atomic energy by the time you finish construction is pretty slim.
"What we have seen from the last seven years is a number of old plants being shut down well before they are required simply because they are not able to compete on the electrical market," says M.V. Ramana, a physicist at the Nuclear Futures Laboratory at Princeton University.
The only reason that nuclear energy powers 80 percent (and falling) of France, and powered 30 percent of pre-Fukushima Japan, is because those countries don't have the wealth of natural resources the US has. And that's not just coal and natural gas (though it is mostly coal and natural gas). US solar, wind, geothermal, and hydroelectric utilities are growing fast, and getting cheaper. Currently, renewables generate over 13 percent of US energy.
Even people within the nuclear industry think it is an impractical choice. "You can make a pretty strong argument that it’s really foolish to burn a resource that's as special as nuclear energy making something as inexpensive and ubiquitous as electricity," says Arthur Ruggles, a professor of nuclear engineering at the University of Tennessee. By becoming more efficient and scaling up renewables, society could save the uranium for cool stuff like powering interplanetary spaceships.
And space ships might be necessary sooner than you'd expect, if society can't find a climate change solution it can agree on.
#CLIMATE CHANGE#NUCLEAR POWER#SAFETY
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: corndog on September 13, 2017, 04:16:44 PM
I think there are some advanced countries still building coal power stations but can't remember who.
Anyways why don't we build our wind generators in Canberra. With all the hot air up there we wouldn't need any other generators.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: rotare on September 13, 2017, 04:33:04 PM
Quote
That is probably the biggest risk with nuclear: It takes so long to see a return on investment, if one comes at all. Imagine you start building a nuclear power plant today. If, at some point in the next two decades, some hardworking genius builds a battery capable of storing wind or solar energy, scrubs the carbon out of coal emissions, or plugs the methane leaking from natural gas, the odds of there being a market for your expensive atomic energy by the time you finish construction is pretty slim.

The logic there's no point in doing anything because there's likely to be something better down the track seems almost irrational.  Is there likely to be new technologies and innovations in 20 years time.... of course there will be.  Can anyone predict what exactly they will be..... nope. 

In twenty years time we'll probably be still saying let's not do anything yet cause a big tech break through is just a decade away....
 
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Champin on September 13, 2017, 06:47:22 PM
Japan are  currently in the process of reinvesting in clean coal power stations and shutting down nukes after Fukashima. Might be something in that for the short term.
 I heard something on the wireless the other day the electricity providers were going to give you a fairly sudstantial subsidy if you opt to switch of your air con on peak period hot days. This is mainly due to Hazelwood shutting down in Gippsland which provided 25% of vics power. They are pooing themselves because they didn't and still haven't got a back up plan to make up that 25%. Right now in Victoria there are alot of people going to bed super early just to stay warm as they cannot afford to run their heaters. The same I would presume go for summer and air conditioners.
 My power bill 3 years ago was around $300 per quarter. Now it is $850. And the gubermin bloke sez in 2 or 3 years they should be able to knock $30 per annum of my bill. Well excuse me if I'm not cracking a fat one.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Cruiser 105Tvan on September 13, 2017, 06:58:34 PM
Japan are  currently in the process of reinvesting in clean coal power stations and shutting down nukes after Fukashima. Might be something in that for the short term.
 I heard something on the wireless the other day the electricity providers were going to give you a fairly sudstantial subsidy if you opt to switch of your air con on peak period hot days. This is mainly due to Hazelwood shutting down in Gippsland which provided 25% of vics power. They are pooing themselves because they didn't and still haven't got a back up plan to make up that 25%. Right now in Victoria there are alot of people going to bed super early just to stay warm as they cannot afford to run their heaters. The same I would presume go for summer and air conditioners.
 My power bill 3 years ago was around $300 per quarter. Now it is $850. And the gubermin bloke sez in 2 or 3 years they should be able to knock $30 per annum of my bill. Well excuse me if I'm not cracking a fat one.


Well said.
It's just too little, too late, or never at all.
And these politicians say they're lookin after us, yeah right.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: McGirr on September 13, 2017, 07:37:14 PM
Cost us nothing to live remote. 3 bedroom house free power, free internet, free rent and free water.  ;D

Yes I will get back in my box.

Mark
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on September 13, 2017, 07:41:32 PM
Clean coal.....thats like saying an honest politician.  No such a thing...
Title: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on September 13, 2017, 08:01:27 PM
Clean coal.....thats like saying an honest politician.  No such a thing...
:) :) ;D

I hear Mr Adani is sending over boat loads of workers with little brushes to scrub that coal nice and clean before they ship it out.... ;D
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: edz on September 13, 2017, 08:02:27 PM
Cost us nothing to live remote. 3 bedroom house free power, free internet, free rent and free water.  ;D

Yes I will get back in my box.

Mark
Next you will try to tell us theres Good clean air, No traffic gridlock and something silly like its a Paradise ...  You wait young fella, One day you will come back to real world reality ;D ;D 
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: McGirr on September 13, 2017, 08:36:05 PM
Next you will try to tell us theres Good clean air, No traffic gridlock and something silly like its a Paradise ...  You wait young fella, One day you will come back to real world reality ;D ;D

What traffic, air is perfect, its paradise and will never come back to the rat race. Not for a very long time. You can all have that :cheers:

Mark
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: glenm64 on September 13, 2017, 08:49:22 PM
Cost us nothing to live remote. 3 bedroom house free power, free internet, free rent and free water.  ;D

Yes I will get back in my box.

Mark
Son#2 still at home has free house, power, water, food, internet, washing, ironing, in fact everything is free. It just costs me an arm and leg.

Cheers Glen

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: austastar on September 13, 2017, 09:10:26 PM
Hi,
    Back about 5 years ago our power bills were about $1000 per year.
I spent 7 times that on a 5kW solar installation and haven't had a bill since, and now we are $2000 in credit, and it has now paid for itself.
At the moment we get back 28c/kW feed in tariff,  which will drop back to 8c/kW eventually.
It would be nice to get some batteries and go off grid totally.
Cheers

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: edz on September 13, 2017, 09:16:29 PM
" What traffic, air is perfect, its paradise and will never come back to the rat race. Not for a very long time. You can all have that "

I hear you Mark, loud and clear on that one.
 If circumstance would allow it [ Needed for medical reasons ] the best part of where we live at the moment, would be watching it disappear into the distance in the rear view mirror .
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on September 13, 2017, 10:18:57 PM
At the moment we get back 28c/kW feed in tariff, 

And there is another reason that power bills have gone up, that's not government subsidising that.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: prodigyrf on September 13, 2017, 10:22:31 PM
The bad news just gets worse for our esteemed overlords in panic mode as described in 'The Australian' today-

'EnergyAustralia has warned it could be forced to shut one of the nation’s newest and most ­efficient black-coal-fired power stations supplying up to 1.2 million customers in NSW, following a Court of Appeal decision it claims has threatened its only supply of coal to the plant.
The potential closure would take up to 1400 megawatts out of the energy market, or the equivalent of 15 per cent of electricity supply to the NSW system.
The Australian has confirmed with EnergyAustralia executives that the prospect of a forced shutdown of the Mount Piper power station in central-western NSW, which has an operational life to 2042, was a “real risk” following legal action launched by green ­activist group 4nature against planning consent for an extension of the Springvale mine owned by Centennial Coal.
The uncertainty is believed ­already to be having an impact on power prices.'

These Greenies are Hell bent on driving us all back to the horse, bullock, millstream and windmill days. We're fast running out of reliable thermal power and these bright sparks reckon now we all have to move to plug-in, rechargeable, electric cars. Something does not compute drongos and I'm seriously considering following the lead from Premier Weatherill and Co- http://www.mygenerator.com.au/ (http://www.mygenerator.com.au/)

PS: Sparky son already has 2 clients in Adelaide wanting him to wire up these as soon as the gasfitters have plumbed them up-
http://www.mygenerator.com.au/generac-13kva-gas-stand-by-generator.html (http://www.mygenerator.com.au/generac-13kva-gas-stand-by-generator.html)
and more to come as soon as more stocks arrive presumably? Seems the well-to-do are not sitting idly by awaiting the threat of blackouts in summer.   
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Champin on September 14, 2017, 07:47:06 AM
Years ago I did some work on an experiental coal cleaning plant in Baccus Marsh in vic.   Not entirely sure on the process but it seemed to involve super heating the coal. It appeared to be a fairly cost prohibitive process. If we venture down that path I can see the cost of power going astronomical.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: edz on September 14, 2017, 08:24:26 AM
Maybe they should just " unbury "  the small portable safe nuke reactor technology capable of powering 20.000 houses .. The reactor is about  as big as a small car and produces waste the size of a football after 10 years of use .  Hyperion nuclear reactor produces power for about 10c a Kw
 https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2008/nov/09/miniature-nuclear-reactors-los-alamos (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2008/nov/09/miniature-nuclear-reactors-los-alamos)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on September 14, 2017, 09:22:04 AM
I recon you're getting closer to the solution there edz.

Small scale local generation supplied on demand.

There's some great examples of community funded local power generation that works really well for the locals who have invested in their own power supply.
Only trouble is those people invested in renewables, that doesn't fit in with the Australian Newspaper's agenda and won't get full page spreads like those other meddling greenies do.... ;)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on September 14, 2017, 09:38:38 AM
Quote from: prodigyrf
.... following legal action launched by green ­activist group 4nature  against planning consent for an extension of the Springvale mine owned by Centennial Coal.
So they pass legislation to say **** you green ****... they pass it like farts for Shit that doesn't matter.. why not for this. ??? ???
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on September 14, 2017, 09:56:13 AM
Maybe they should just " unbury "  the small portable safe nuke reactor technology capable of powering 20.000 houses .. The reactor is about  as big as a small car and produces waste the size of a football after 10 years of use .  Hyperion nuclear reactor produces power for about 10c a Kw
 https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2008/nov/09/miniature-nuclear-reactors-los-alamos (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2008/nov/09/miniature-nuclear-reactors-los-alamos)

Seems to me pretty typical to a lot of the idea's you hear about in the energy space, full of promise in press releases but doesn't eventuate for whatever reason. That article was from nearly 10 years ago with units supposed to be shipping 4 years ago but can find very little about them since. Similarly, I remember seeing the idea's to harvest wave energy and geothermal energy years ago that painted them as very workable solutions for base load renewables but have heard very little about them since.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: prodigyrf on September 14, 2017, 12:15:41 PM
Similarly, I remember seeing the idea's to harvest wave energy and geothermal energy years ago that painted them as very workable solutions for base load renewables but have heard very little about them since.

Ummmm....
http://www.energybusinessnews.com.au/energy/tidal/oceanlix-calls-in-receivers/ (http://www.energybusinessnews.com.au/energy/tidal/oceanlix-calls-in-receivers/)
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-05-17/huge-swell-sinks-wave-energy-generator/829282 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-05-17/huge-swell-sinks-wave-energy-generator/829282)
and you may recall our Climate Commissioner Tim Flannery at the time spruiking hot rocks-
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-30/geothermal-power-plant-closes-deemed-not-financially-viable/7798962 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-30/geothermal-power-plant-closes-deemed-not-financially-viable/7798962)
At least he did have shares in Geodynamics himself although we all did with a $90million handout from Treasury on his advice. I think it's called Green sinking funds  :'(     
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on September 14, 2017, 12:55:22 PM
Ummmm....
http://www.energybusinessnews.com.au/energy/tidal/oceanlix-calls-in-receivers/ (http://www.energybusinessnews.com.au/energy/tidal/oceanlix-calls-in-receivers/)
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-05-17/huge-swell-sinks-wave-energy-generator/829282 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-05-17/huge-swell-sinks-wave-energy-generator/829282)
and you may recall our Climate Commissioner Tim Flannery at the time spruiking hot rocks-
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-30/geothermal-power-plant-closes-deemed-not-financially-viable/7798962 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-30/geothermal-power-plant-closes-deemed-not-financially-viable/7798962)
At least he did have shares in Geodynamics himself although we all did with a $90million handout from Treasury on his advice. I think it's called Green sinking funds  :'(   


It was a different wave harvesting outfit I were thinking of but probably went the same way. I think this quote nails my point on the head.

Quote
"I think it was talked up too much — it's a very nice concept on the front page of a newspaper, looks very easy to do, and I think it was over-spruiked," he said.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: edz on September 14, 2017, 01:10:38 PM
Everyone produces  garbage in quantity so maybe a couple of these types of plants https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8StpMP9eDoo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8StpMP9eDoo)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: prodigyrf on September 14, 2017, 01:35:47 PM
Meanwhile out in the real world The Australian reports 13 Sept 2017-

'Nations around the world are building coal-fired power plants at a faster rate than those being ­decommissioned. The plants under construction reflect a 10 per cent increase to the total global generation powered by coal.
New electricity generated by coal-fired plants will outstrip that which was retired in 2015 and 2016 by a factor of five.
With Australia facing a policy crisis over energy security and the winding back of reliance on coal, construction of new coal-fired power plants was increasing in at least 35 countries, according to data analysis supplied to the ­Nationals by the federal ­parliamentary library. China has 299 new coal generation units under construction, followed by India which is building 132. Australia’s closest neighbour, Indo­nesia, was planning a further 32.
Nuclear countries, including Japan and South Africa, were also increasing their exposure to coal-powered investment, with 21 new plants between them. Vietnam was building 34.
The data was requested by ­Nationals senator and party whip John Williams, who has argued that the carbon emissions produced by the new plants worldwide would eclipse Australia’s total carbon emission profile.
“We don’t have a tent over Australia … emissions are going up around the world because of these generators being built,” ­Senator Williams told The Australian. “We are bowing down to the green agenda which will make no difference to the world’s ­emissions.
“It makes no sense. We will de-industrialise Australia and let everything be manufactured overseas with higher emissions.”'
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Cruiser 105Tvan on September 14, 2017, 02:53:36 PM
Meanwhile out in the real world The Australian reports 13 Sept 2017-


“We don’t have a tent over Australia … emissions are going up around the world because of these generators being built,” ­Senator Williams told The Australian. “We are bowing down to the green agenda which will make no difference to the world’s ­emissions.
“It makes no sense. We will de-industrialise Australia and let everything be manufactured overseas with higher emissions.”'

And there lies the problem.
Green groups applying their agenda selectively around the world, and dragging us back to the Stone Age.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: corndog on September 14, 2017, 05:01:17 PM
Son#2 still at home has free house, power, water, food, internet, washing, ironing, in fact everything is free. It just costs me an arm and leg.

Cheers Glen
3 kids at home here. Costs me both arms and legs.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: alnjan on September 14, 2017, 06:53:37 PM
And there lies the problem.
Green groups applying their agenda selectively around the world, and dragging us back to the Stone Age.

That's about the extent of it
Title: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on September 14, 2017, 11:47:37 PM
Meanwhile out in the real world The Australian reports 13 Sept 2017-


As you may have guessed by now, I don't read the Australian.
It's my personal choice, opinion is not news and shouldn't be sold as such.

But anyway your posts have prompted me to do some searching.
I believe in paying for things that deserve to be payed for, so I googled "the Australian Newspaper - AGL" and read as many "news" stories as I could until they put up their paywall. ;)

If that's your source of "news" then I now clearly understand your position on this topic.
Everyone is untitled to their opinion and I don't begrudge anyone for their point of view, but this story pretty much sums up the tone of all the stories in my search results. If nothing else it has reaffirmed my thoughts about this media outlet's agenda....
Sadly though, it is a long way away from what's happening in the "real world"...
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/judith-sloan/how-agl-is-having-its-cake-and-eating-it/news-story/bf9a12ef3adea6287c3e9dcb8fe2573a (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/judith-sloan/how-agl-is-having-its-cake-and-eating-it/news-story/bf9a12ef3adea6287c3e9dcb8fe2573a)

And why does Newscorp hate AGL so much?
Maybe the truth hurts....??
http://www.afr.com/news/agl-energys-andy-vesey-says-coal-investment-doesnt-add-up-20170620-gwv2fq (http://www.afr.com/news/agl-energys-andy-vesey-says-coal-investment-doesnt-add-up-20170620-gwv2fq)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: suby on September 15, 2017, 12:38:58 AM

The pay-walls and false news, just suck. I refuse to use media like this.

A good free site ( I subscribe because I like to support free press ) that covers news in general very well. 

Even John Hewson the former leader of the Liberal party, has something to say about lies feed to us by the COALition and most media on this subject. We have no leadership because of ideology.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/14/the-current-energy-debate-is-farcical-what-does-this-government-stand-for?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+AUS+v1+-+AUS+morning+mail+callout&utm_term=243534&subid=17142468&CMP=ema_632 (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/14/the-current-energy-debate-is-farcical-what-does-this-government-stand-for?utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=GU+Today+AUS+v1+-+AUS+morning+mail+callout&utm_term=243534&subid=17142468&CMP=ema_632)

Power is going up, global worming up, and relibality down, because of this lot. 
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: garryc on September 15, 2017, 07:51:26 AM
I'm not sure whether this is correct.
Didn't the NSW Gov own Liddell until about 2014 when it was virtually given to AGL?
Surely if the governement still owned it there would be no debate,the governement could simply choose to keep it open or close it.
Am I being too simplistic?
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Metters on September 15, 2017, 11:43:47 AM
We only have ourselves to blame for all of this.  We are the bunnies who toddle along to the poling booths at each election and, after complaining about the size of some of the ballot papers, we blindly vote for the two major parties after following their how to vote cards.  We haven't a clue who most of the candidates are or where our vote is going if the candidate on top does not get enough.

Any undesirable group can slowly but surely penetrate local branches and get their candidate into Government thanks to a thing called the "safe seat".  Once they have enough in there they can take the country in any direction they want.

I am inclined to think we are following this cycle very closely and are down to the second last stage.   http://www.wrisley.com/cycle.htm (http://www.wrisley.com/cycle.htm)   It is claimed it was written by Alexander Tytler in the late 1700s and there are many other sites covering it.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on September 15, 2017, 12:16:46 PM
Quote from: Metters
We are the bunnies who toddle along to the poling booths at each election and...
it doesn't matter who you vote for, they are all as ****ed as each other and have been for a couple of decades now

IMWO, if you voted for "XYZ" or "ABC" party it makes no difference.

So if I voted Labour or Green or Pink or Sex Party - things would be different?
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Cruiser 105Tvan on September 15, 2017, 01:41:56 PM
it doesn't matter who you vote for, they are all as ****ed as each other and have been for a couple of decades now

IMWO, if you voted for "XYZ" or "ABC" party it makes no difference.

So if I voted Labour or Green or Pink or Sex Party - things would be different?
You don't have to be a living person to vote either.
They've got records of dead people who cast a vote at Nunawading during an election.  Can't remember when it was, might have been late nineties.
They never did work that one out.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on September 15, 2017, 02:26:21 PM
Quote from: Cruiser 105Tvan
You don't have to be a living person to vote either.
They've got records of dead people who cast a vote at Nunawading during an election.  Can't remember when it was, might have been late nineties.
They never did work that one out.
They did that on the Simpsons too... and the dead cat voted too ;D

Lets be honest, *someone* walks in and says its their name... it could be anyone on earth or under the earth.. they don't ask for ID which is about the only place on the planet that doesn't ask for 12000000 forms of ID...
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: prodigyrf on September 15, 2017, 02:54:50 PM
The political malaise at present is all about the big fib that wind and solar power in particular could solve global warming cheaply but here's the rub with wind bankrupting traditional thermal generators-
https://www.citi.io/2016/10/26/are-wind-farms-messing-up-the-electricity-market/ (https://www.citi.io/2016/10/26/are-wind-farms-messing-up-the-electricity-market/)
Bear in mind here too that there is a vast hidden cost in the other half of our power bills with the increasing cost of hooking up and managing these widely dispersed and disparate generators and trying to control the resultant voltage and frequency impacts.

Here's a good overview of the problem of ditching those large thermal generators that can readily respond to demand fluctuations-
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uz6xOFWi4A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uz6xOFWi4A)
But apparently the solution is for you all to have your new cheap electric cars hitched up to the grid or some such  :-*

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: 1302toby on September 15, 2017, 06:40:19 PM
I look after three sites that put Cogen units because they were told electricity was going to sky rocket in price but gas was going to remain stable.. only one site is still using their unit and the others are off as their gas bills went through the roof.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: suby on September 15, 2017, 08:49:51 PM
The political malaise at present is all about the big fib that wind and solar power in particular could solve global warming cheaply but here's the rub with wind bankrupting traditional thermal generators-
https://www.citi.io/2016/10/26/are-wind-farms-messing-up-the-electricity-market/ (https://www.citi.io/2016/10/26/are-wind-farms-messing-up-the-electricity-market/)
Bear in mind here too that there is a vast hidden cost in the other half of our power bills with the increasing cost of hooking up and managing these widely dispersed and disparate generators and trying to control the resultant voltage and frequency impacts.

Here's a good overview of the problem of ditching those large thermal generators that can readily respond to demand fluctuations-
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uz6xOFWi4A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uz6xOFWi4A)
But apparently the solution is for you all to have your new cheap electric cars hitched up to the grid or some such  :-*

It's interesting to me that as usual it's not technology or a construction problem its a political problem.

At the end of the day coal simply can't compete with renewable energy. Doesn't mater how you spin it. The pumped water and battery systems can fill the gaps   between grid management, wind, large scale solar, roof to solar and other technologies that will eventually rule.

This is about getting to the destination at the cheapest and most environmental friendly way. The replacement of aging power stations is not going so well despite the advise of the chief  scientist and other experts.  The COALition has to give a good explanation to why?
   
https://www.cleanenergycouncil.org.au/policy-advocacy/electricity-prices.html (https://www.cleanenergycouncil.org.au/policy-advocacy/electricity-prices.html)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on September 15, 2017, 10:12:39 PM
At the end of the day coal simply can't compete with renewable energy. Doesn't mater how you spin it. The pumped water and battery systems can fill the gaps   between grid management, wind, large scale solar, roof to solar and other technologies that will eventually rule.

Source?
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Metters on September 15, 2017, 11:01:02 PM
So if I voted Labour or Green or Pink or Sex Party - things would be different?

No it would not be different under the present system.  We have a political system that was never designed for parties.  It was supposed to be for independent candidates representing their electorate with a Senate to review legislation to make sure each State was treated fairly.  It is a long way from that now but until the people wake up and demand we get back to something resembling the original system, we are going to continue on this down hill slide.  There is no sign of that happening at the moment and it won't until people start taking a serious interest in what is going on.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: suby on September 15, 2017, 11:08:38 PM
Source?

A quick search shows many. The US and other coal producing countries are simply not attractive for investment. The future is happening now.

From the industry:
http://aglblog.com.au/2017/06/coal-cant-compete-with-renewables-in-long-term/ (http://aglblog.com.au/2017/06/coal-cant-compete-with-renewables-in-long-term/)

Many places around the world.

It’s dead wrong. But it is consistent:
https://biv.com/article/2017/3/trump-cant-stop-renewable-energy-juggernaut-report/ (https://biv.com/article/2017/3/trump-cant-stop-renewable-energy-juggernaut-report/)

Time - It Likes Coal More Than Facts:
http://time.com/4916531/donald-trump-rick-perry-coal-report/ (http://time.com/4916531/donald-trump-rick-perry-coal-report/)

Cheers,


Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: alnjan on September 15, 2017, 11:54:11 PM
It's interesting to me that as usual it's not technology or a construction problem its a political problem.

At the end of the day coal simply can't compete with renewable energy. Doesn't mater how you spin it. The pumped water and battery systems can fill the gaps   between grid management, wind, large scale solar, roof to solar and other technologies that will eventually rule.

This is about getting to the destination at the cheapest and most environmental friendly way. The replacement of aging power stations is not going so well despite the advise of the chief  scientist and other experts.  The COALition has to give a good explanation to why?
   
https://www.cleanenergycouncil.org.au/policy-advocacy/electricity-prices.html (https://www.cleanenergycouncil.org.au/policy-advocacy/electricity-prices.html)


Eventually it will but not at present.  There is no point living in the future if realistically today the alternative is not as consistently as reliable as the current power station.  Where in any best management practise do you close something that is working and have nothing  that performs as good (preferably better) to replace it with.  You only have to look at South Australia for real time problems.  It may be good that Investment is moving from Coal based power to Renewable Energy sources but where does logic say live in the dark ages for the next unknown time frame until technology and infrastructure have caught up to not just our current demand but future demands for energy. 
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: suby on September 16, 2017, 12:24:48 AM

Eventually it will but not at present.  There is no point living in the future if realistically today the alternative is not as consistently as reliable as the current power station.  Where in any best management practise do you close something that is working and have nothing  that performs as good (preferably better) to replace it with.  You only have to look at South Australia for real time problems.  It may be good that Investment is moving from Coal based power to Renewable Energy sources but where does logic say live in the dark ages for the next unknown time frame until technology and infrastructure have caught up to not just our current demand but future demands for energy.

Its a management problem. It's relay quite simple, someone forgot to think about the future, or has vested interests in the mining industry.

Australia has many highly skilled smart people that could implement solutions to problems in the future ( next 5 years ) but what pain you feel now is a product of decisions within the last 10 years in my view.

We have the technology and skills to fix our power issues but it takes a few years to develop and build a solutions. You can't magic it. The latest hullabaloo is just someone trying to make money at Australia's expense, that will cost much much more in the long-run. 

The alternate view is to spend on current infrastructure. Thus the current topic is Liddell, and it's reliability.  Liddell apparently is running at about 55% capacity, and unreliable from observed information. The news sources say fixing this could cost billions to extended its life 5 years. 

Given that we need more power in 5 years time to replace Liddell ( according to our government). Until then we will just need to suck it up!   Are you happy?

 
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: prodigyrf on September 16, 2017, 09:09:09 AM
It's always the same old story with these unreliables. Don't worry, we'll just wave the magic wand and sprinkle around the fairy dust and all the technological problems will be solved in a few years time, just you wait and see. Meanwhile the Weatherill Govt is installing 9 diesel generators to gulp 80,000 litres of diesel an hour while the world is intent on banning diesel cars, plus a unicorn Tesla battery (look over there folks) and I'm supposed to believe in their fairy dust?  ???
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: GeoffA on September 16, 2017, 09:19:30 AM
Just what will be achieved by inflicting this on ourselves??
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on September 16, 2017, 09:36:34 AM

Eventually it will but not at present.  There is no point living in the future if realistically today the alternative is not as consistently as reliable as the current power station.  Where in any best management practise do you close something that is working and have nothing  that performs as good (preferably better) to replace it with.  You only have to look at South Australia for real time problems.  It may be good that Investment is moving from Coal based power to Renewable Energy sources but where does logic say live in the dark ages for the next unknown time frame until technology and infrastructure have caught up to not just our current demand but future demands for energy.

That just about sums it up mate. Everyone seems to conveniently forget about base load power,  which we haven't got anywhere in Australia except for coal and a couple of very small gas and hydro systems. All the other ideas are just that,ideas, and until some are up and running and proven to work, coal is our saviour, much as some don't agree..
We contribute 1% to global emissions, yet we are strangling ourselves to prove a point. Massive investment in renewables comes at a cost .......can we individually afford that cost ?
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: edz on September 16, 2017, 10:47:15 AM
If the clowns in this country keep going in the future we might need someone to hold a few concerts  for us ... Just change that name from Africa to Australia .  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9BNoNFKCBI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9BNoNFKCBI)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: suby on September 16, 2017, 11:33:42 AM

I call bull sh*t

The Australian Energy Market Operator's view
http://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/am/govt-should-let-aemo-get-on-with-the-job,-says-oliver-yates/8938370 (http://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/am/govt-should-let-aemo-get-on-with-the-job,-says-oliver-yates/8938370)

http://www.skynews.com.au/business/business/market/2017/09/14/enough-time-to-replace-liddell-capacity--aemo.html (http://www.skynews.com.au/business/business/market/2017/09/14/enough-time-to-replace-liddell-capacity--aemo.html)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: krisandkev on September 16, 2017, 12:58:36 PM
I think a lot forget that we are a large country with a very small population. Distance is a killer for infrastructure unless you have vast sums of money to build and maintain it.  We don’t have the money, then add in our ever increasing welfare dependant population and we are absolutely crazy not to take advantage of the recourses we have, coal/gas etc. But obviously we need to develop other sustainable technologies for when we run out of coal and gas.  But the day our great leaders at federal and state level went down the privatising track we were stuffed.  :'(   What you and I owned, gone, sold off.   >:(  And the one tool we had to control big companies is lost.  Kevin
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: corndog on September 16, 2017, 01:45:40 PM
Yep. Short term gain for long term pain. Any money that has been received from all 'our' assets being sold is gone, who knows what on. My parents said to me "be prepared to pay for it in the future. Once gone it will be hard to get back". And the list keeps on growing. Take our roads. Managed by overseas countries making billions of $ in tolls. I would rather have us borrow the money and gladly pay the tolls to pay it back.  Anyways I don't want to start to rant.   ;D ;D
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: alnjan on September 16, 2017, 02:32:21 PM
Its a management problem. It's relay quite simple, someone forgot to think about the future, or has vested interests in the mining industry.

Australia has many highly skilled smart people that could implement solutions to problems in the future ( next 5 years ) but what pain you feel now is a product of decisions within the last 10 years in my view.

We have the technology and skills to fix our power issues but it takes a few years to develop and build a solutions. You can't magic it. The latest hullabaloo is just someone trying to make money at Australia's expense, that will cost much much more in the long-run. 

The alternate view is to spend on current infrastructure. Thus the current topic is Liddell, and it's reliability.  Liddell apparently is running at about 55% capacity, and unreliable from observed information. The news sources say fixing this could cost billions to extended its life 5 years. 

Given that we need more power in 5 years time to replace Liddell ( according to our government). Until then we will just need to suck it up!   Are you happy?

It is a Management issue.  All we can hope for is the powers that, be between now and then, all make the right choices for the right outcomes.  Plenty of warning has been given about Liddell for the future demands to be met by the time we get there.  Due to the changes and advances in technology especially in recent years it is hard to be too critical of decisions previously made.  Along with the technology the infrastructure and geography is the other challenge for Australia but ones that need to be seriously addressed and be ready for not just 5-10 years but that 10-20 year time frame as well. 

Not just in Power creation and delivery both Nationally and per State but also on the local residential and industrial building.  The technology and availability for buildings to be either fully o r partially self sufficient is there and when included in construction cost are not excessive.   Rather then builders get a tick to say they have done the least amount possible to reduce the carbon foot print it is time to raise the standard to look at buildings being fully self sufficient with it's power needs. 
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: prodigyrf on September 18, 2017, 01:55:11 AM
More fake news from The Australian today presumably?

"Australians are on track to pay more than $500 million to AGL to fund its flagship solar generators, as the energy giant prepares to shut down its Liddell coal power station, a move that has prompted warnings of a power shortfall that could lead to blackouts and price hikes.
The company has already ­secured $230m in direct grants and is forecast to gain far more under the renewable energy ­target, deepening the political divide on energy policy as the federal government considers cutting ­future aid to make coal more competitive.
The scale of the subsidy is now a key question in the government’s debate on whether to ­embrace a clean energy target, as opponents of the idea challenge AGL and others to prove that wind and solar schemes can work without taxpayer handouts.
Malcolm Turnbull and his cabinet ministers are yet to decide on whether to adopt a clean ­energy target but are unwilling to continue the heavy subsidy, ­putting a priority on more reliable power supplies, including coal and gas.
The two AGL solar farms in western NSW generate a combined 359,000 megawatt hours of electricity, just 4 per cent of the ­capacity of Liddell, but have ­secured more long-term investment than the coal power station under laws that continue the ­renewable subsidy until 2030."

Can't blame the subsidy miners when the fairy dust merchants provide the rules of the game but our national grid is headed for a train wreck. Pumped hydro? South Oz doesn't have any high ground to pump seawater to (we are the driest State in the driest continent remember) and good luck with you Great Dividers, etc getting pumped seawater hydro sites past the Greenies in your neck of the woods. It's like this bozos. The history of mankind's ability to store energy is pitiful apart from pumping water uphill or in the form of calories and as for electrochemical storage, I'd remind you we're still using the same lead-acid battery Henry was plonking in the Model T so go and lift your bonnet and ponder it for a while and get off the drugs.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gordo350 on September 18, 2017, 06:36:10 AM
.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on September 18, 2017, 02:32:58 PM
In the interest of balancing fake news with some opposing fake news....

http://abc.net.au/news/2017-09-18/living-off-solar-and-lithium-batteries-big-success-wa-farmers/8954740?pfmredir=sm (http://abc.net.au/news/2017-09-18/living-off-solar-and-lithium-batteries-big-success-wa-farmers/8954740?pfmredir=sm)

Those damn unreliable renewables and their lack of power outages.... ;)

(https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/yQlqi/4/?abcnewsembedheight=330)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: suby on September 20, 2017, 08:13:42 PM
In the interest of balancing fake news with some opposing fake news....

http://abc.net.au/news/2017-09-18/living-off-solar-and-lithium-batteries-big-success-wa-farmers/8954740?pfmredir=sm (http://abc.net.au/news/2017-09-18/living-off-solar-and-lithium-batteries-big-success-wa-farmers/8954740?pfmredir=sm)

Those damn unreliable renewables and their lack of power outages.... ;)

(https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/yQlqi/4/?abcnewsembedheight=330)


To add to that, the smart money knows how to fix the high cost of power, and the steel industry's ever increasing costs. I wish our federal government would get a clue.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-20/sanjeev-gupta-buys-controlling-stake-in-renewables-firm/8964448 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-20/sanjeev-gupta-buys-controlling-stake-in-renewables-firm/8964448)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on September 21, 2017, 09:00:41 AM
In the interest of balancing fake news with some opposing fake news....

http://abc.net.au/news/2017-09-18/living-off-solar-and-lithium-batteries-big-success-wa-farmers/8954740?pfmredir=sm (http://abc.net.au/news/2017-09-18/living-off-solar-and-lithium-batteries-big-success-wa-farmers/8954740?pfmredir=sm)

Those damn unreliable renewables and their lack of power outages.... ;)

(https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/yQlqi/4/?abcnewsembedheight=330)


The transmission costs to the extremities of the grid are what makes it a viable solution in this case, not so much the case for the grid at large, technology might change that in the future but as it stands, its not an accurate microcosm of the bigger picture.

To add to that, the smart money knows how to fix the high cost of power, and the steel industry's ever increasing costs. I wish our federal government would get a clue.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-20/sanjeev-gupta-buys-controlling-stake-in-renewables-firm/8964448 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-20/sanjeev-gupta-buys-controlling-stake-in-renewables-firm/8964448)


Again not a great comparison to the grid at large, Their predominate usage would be when the sun is shining which is different to the wider grid, they can put it straight to use which is substantially cheaper than having to store it to use later.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on September 21, 2017, 09:31:38 AM
The transmission costs to the extremities of the grid are what makes it a viable solution in this case, not so much the case for the grid at large, technology might change that in the future but as it stands, its not an accurate microcosm of the bigger picture.

Again not a great comparison to the grid at large, Their predominate usage would be when the sun is shining which is different to the wider grid, they can put it straight to use which is substantially cheaper than having to store it to use later.

Absolutely agree there.

I guess the point is apart from what Liescorp and the COALition keep saying, there are viable alternatives for lots of situations.

If a steel manufacturer can generate their own power that's a massive demand off an old and unreliable network.
If all of these new instant suburbs that pop up nearly every other week on the fringes of our major cities had their own locally generated supply and storage, that would be another huge demand removed from an old and unreliable network.

Keep going along that thought process and soon enough it's only the city centers that need bulk generation.

Obviously old dirty technology will have a place in our power generation network for some time to come. But to subsidize building new versions of old dirty technology is just stupid to most of us.
There would be 100s (if not 1000s) of small regional communities all around the country that could easily go off grid now with today's technology, if only the lobbyists didn't have so much money and power to control government policy (or more importantly, lack of policy).

It's not about Australia's 1% of global emissions or whatever crap the coal fans keep rolling out, it's about moving forward as a society.

I'm sure back in the day the steam society fought hard to stop the rise of petrol engines too. They most likely had a whole bunch of fake facts as to why the world shouldn't step out of the dark ages.

I recon my kids are going to laugh at how stupid us oldies were for even having this debate and not just getting on with it sooner....

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on September 21, 2017, 10:48:05 AM
I think both sides can be selective about what "facts" they use to paint the picture they want and whilst I don't doubt there are lobbyists from the coal industry looking after vested interests I also don't doubt there are some from the renewables industry doing exactly the same, the truth I think is often somewhere in the middle.

I haven't followed it too closely but it seems to me we are in a kind of twilight zone where we have;
1) Ageing coal-fired infrastructure that has been very cheap and reliable for providing constant power but due to the environmental impacts, subsidies for renewables and capital costs are not being replaced in kind.
2) Renewables are getting to a point where they are competitive for generation but not so much when you consider the storage required to replace fossil-fueled baseload power.

So we have the slow death of coal-fired generation, but renewables not to the point where they, with storage, are yet financially viable. That's probably where Gas-fired generation looks like a good stop gap but then you have issues with supply and environmental concerns with fracking.

Renewables look to be the future, but the future isn't quite here yet.

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on September 21, 2017, 11:01:40 AM
I think both sides can be selective about what "facts" they use to paint the picture they want and whilst I don't doubt there are lobbyists from the coal industry looking after vested interests I also don't doubt there are some from the renewables industry doing exactly the same, the truth I think is often somewhere in the middle.

I haven't followed it too closely but it seems to me we are in a kind of twilight zone where we have;
1) Ageing coal-fired infrastructure that has been very cheap and reliable for providing constant power but due to the environmental impacts, subsidies for renewables and capital costs are not being replaced in kind.
2) Renewables are getting to a point where they are competitive for generation but not so much when you consider the storage required to replace fossil-fueled baseload power.

So we have the slow death of coal-fired generation, but renewables not to the point where they, with storage, are yet financially viable. That's probably where Gas-fired generation looks like a good stop gap but then you have issues with supply and environmental concerns with fracking.

Renewables look to be the future, but the future isn't quite here yet.



Maybe the future is here but big business doesnt like it.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-21/pumped-hydro-renewable-energy-sites-australia-anu-research/8966530 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-21/pumped-hydro-renewable-energy-sites-australia-anu-research/8966530)
Title: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on September 21, 2017, 11:10:32 AM
I think both sides can be selective about what "facts" they use to paint the picture they want and whilst I don't doubt there are lobbyists from the coal industry looking after vested interests I also don't doubt there are some from the renewables industry doing exactly the same, the truth I think is often somewhere in the middle.

I haven't followed it too closely but it seems to me we are in a kind of twilight zone

.....

So we have the slow death of coal-fired generation, but renewables not to the point where they, with storage, are yet financially viable. That's probably where Gas-fired generation looks like a good stop gap but then you have issues with supply and environmental concerns with fracking.

I would say that's a pretty good summary.

There are a couple of other factors with gas, mostly around exports. But your twilight zone is about right.

Despite as it may appear by my posts, I'm not actually that passionate about the topic.
I mean, I do strongly believe that as a global society we do need to progress with our energy technologies. We've started the conversation, that's a good start, but we've been talking for a long time now...

But my input on this one is mostly just to counter the Newscorp lies.
As you so rightly said, for every selective fact or one sided story there's always another side, I just thought it was worth the effort to keep this one (slightly) balanced.

It has been interesting to see that the line on this one is so clearly drawn between Newscorp and the ABC.... It will be more interesting to see if we still get both sides after Pauline finishes her ABC inquiry. But's that's for another thread, I don't want to steer this one off topic and get it locked too... ;)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on September 21, 2017, 11:42:40 AM
Maybe the future is here but big business doesnt like it.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-21/pumped-hydro-renewable-energy-sites-australia-anu-research/8966530 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-21/pumped-hydro-renewable-energy-sites-australia-anu-research/8966530)


Big business likes money, they generally don't care too much where it comes from. I think pumped hydro has a big future but as the guy in the vid said, the economics don't stack up yet. Then there is the environmental aspect as well, how many dams's have we built recently, most I have read about like the Traveston dam don't go ahead due to their environmental impact.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: suby on September 21, 2017, 08:03:44 PM
Big business likes money, they generally don't care too much where it comes from. I think pumped hydro has a big future but as the guy in the vid said, the economics don't stack up yet. Then there is the environmental aspect as well, how many dams's have we built recently, most I have read about like the Traveston dam don't go ahead due to their environmental impact.

The guy in the vid didn't say the economics don't stack up yet?  I will fix it for you.

The vid from Bigfish's link said  that it would not cost anything factoring in the lower cost of solar and wind over the period and could be built by 2030. Professor Blakers said that it's off the shelf technology used throughout the world, and he identified 22K sites that could used for power generation and only a small fraction of sites are needed. That is 100% renewable storage by 2030!

In another article, I saw that this technology is one third the cost of gas generation, to put this into comparison against fossil fuels. The sites are all outside national parks etc.

Cheers,

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on September 21, 2017, 09:46:52 PM
The guy in the vid didn't say the economics don't stack up yet?  I will fix it for you.

I was referring to the main video where the energy economist said: "I don't think the economics stacks up."

The vid from Bigfish's link said  that it would not cost anything factoring in the lower cost of solar and wind over the period and could be built by 2030. Professor Blakers said that it's off the shelf technology used throughout the world, and he identified 22K sites that could used for power generation and only a small fraction of sites are needed. That is 100% renewable storage by 2030!

In another article, I saw that this technology is one third the cost of gas generation, to put this into comparison against fossil fuels. The sites are all outside national parks etc.

Can you link me to the article? All too often people include or exclude the cost of construction to favor their arguments, that my guess as to what is happening here.

Professor Blakers seems to be making some pretty big claims that I haven't seen supported elsewhere and I suspect he is using some selective "facts" in an effort to secure additional research funding.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: prodigyrf on September 22, 2017, 12:53:14 AM
Some aren't saying but you can hazard an educated guess-

https://s3.amazonaws.com/jo.nova/graph/psychology/polls/aust/newspoll-aust-2017-amount-to-pay-3.gif

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on September 22, 2017, 06:37:27 PM


Renewables look to be the future, but the future isn't quite here yet.

That's what I keep trying to say....too many think it can happen overnight, and no amount of money can make it happen, and a slow transition is what's needed, WHEN we get base load power sorted !
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Rumpig on September 22, 2017, 06:53:06 PM
Big business likes money, they generally don't care too much where it comes from. I think pumped hydro has a big future but as the guy in the vid said, the economics don't stack up yet. Then there is the environmental aspect as well, how many dams's have we built recently, most I have read about like the Traveston dam don't go ahead due to their environmental impact.
Traveston was a poor location, they couldn't even find decent bedrock where the wall was supposed to go apparently...a big shallow dam where the deepest section was 20mtrs deep, but it averaged being only 4 metres deep due to how shallow most of it was.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on September 22, 2017, 07:43:10 PM
Traveston was a poor location, they couldn't even find decent bedrock where the wall was supposed to go apparently...a big shallow dam where the deepest section was 20mtrs deep, but it averaged being only 4 metres deep due to how shallow most of it was.
Probably all true, from my understanding though the reason it got knocked back though was on environmental grounds from the federal government, which was my main point. It will be interesting though when sites getting chosen to see the green groups conflicted, on one hand, they will likely want to oppose dam building but on the other like the renewable baseload potential of pumped hydro. 
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on September 22, 2017, 09:31:48 PM
Pumped hydro is a good idea, but, like all other options, not a guaranteed 24/7 power source.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on September 22, 2017, 09:44:47 PM
Quote from: Cruiser 105Tvan
And there lies the problem.
Green groups applying their agenda selectively around the world, and dragging us back to the Stone Age.
Still think Rob has the best post in this thread...
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: suby on September 22, 2017, 11:39:58 PM
I was referring to the main video where the energy economist said: "I don't think the economics stacks up."

Can you link me to the article? All too often people include or exclude the cost of construction to favor their arguments, that my guess as to what is happening here.

Professor Blakers seems to be making some pretty big claims that I haven't seen supported elsewhere and I suspect he is using some selective "facts" in an effort to secure additional research funding.


Okay,
https://theconversation.com/factcheck-qanda-is-coal-still-cheaper-than-renewables-as-an-energy-source-81263 (https://theconversation.com/factcheck-qanda-is-coal-still-cheaper-than-renewables-as-an-energy-source-81263)
http://www.reputex.com/media-releases/rising-gas-price-falling-storage-costs-makes-renewables-cheapest-for-reliable-power-in-australia/ (http://www.reputex.com/media-releases/rising-gas-price-falling-storage-costs-makes-renewables-cheapest-for-reliable-power-in-australia/)

And how pumped storage in the middle of QLD is cheaper then gas:
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2016/s4729057.htm (http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2016/s4729057.htm)
--------- snip ----------
DOMINIQUE SCHWARTZ: Simon Kidson says the hydro scheme will be able to provide six hours of power for 200,000 homes across north Queensland.

SIMON KIDSTON: Coal-fired power is the cheapest power: and that's baseload power. What this project does is turns on or turns off very rapidly. So it really competes with the peaking generators, which are historically gas. And we're a fraction of the cost of gas.

DOMINIQUE SCHWARTZ: A fraction? What sort of fraction?

SIMON KIDSTON: Less than a third.
--------- /snip ----------

--------- snip ----------
ROGER PRICE, CEO, WINDLAB: About 80 kilometres that way there is another project which we call 'Big Kennedy' or phase two, which is an enormous plateau: 80,000 hectares, with a world-class wind resource on it. That project will support up to 1,200 megawatts of wind, enough to support nearly 1 million Australian homes.

DOMINIQUE SCHWARTZ: Roger Price says the national energy debate has focused too much on gas.

ROGER PRICE, CEO, WINDLAB: Wind and solar is now by far the cheapest form of technology you can build to produce electricity. And if we want to reduce the cost of electricity, we need to build more renewables. We need to have a stale policy framework that allows the investors to make those 10-, 20-, 30-year commitments to renewable energy.
--------- /snip ----------


https://theconversation.com/pumped-hydro-energy-storage-making-better-use-of-wind-18565 (https://theconversation.com/pumped-hydro-energy-storage-making-better-use-of-wind-18565)

This gives a good overview:
https://theconversation.com/want-energy-storage-here-are-22-000-sites-for-pumped-hydro-across-australia-84275 (https://theconversation.com/want-energy-storage-here-are-22-000-sites-for-pumped-hydro-across-australia-84275)

Can you reciprocate and point me to recent article/report outlining the cost benefits of coal Vs renewables?

Considering Australia reported the hottest winter 2 degrees above historic temperatures recently! We do need to consider all options. If coal is equal, we should use renewable energy by default. yes?

I know climate change will not affect me much, but our kids and grand kids deserve a future. Why stuff it up for them. This is about changing the way we look at the power problems and getting an affordable outcome that does not screw or kids future. The world is moving to renewables for good reason. It's both economic and green.

In previous work many years ago I worked on large scale construction, coal mines and a power station and many large construction projects. Yes cost of construction is a factor, but I can't see how pumped storage construction would be larger then building coal powerstations! No way. Pump water up hill and generate down hill, not many moving parts compared to a power station, or coal wash plant and infrastructure.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on September 23, 2017, 10:22:14 AM
So quite a few issues to address, here goes

Okay,
https://theconversation.com/factcheck-qanda-is-coal-still-cheaper-than-renewables-as-an-energy-source-81263 (https://theconversation.com/factcheck-qanda-is-coal-still-cheaper-than-renewables-as-an-energy-source-81263)

I'd agree with that article, I think it's fairly balanced and consistent with what I have said, it's actually a good read for people to get their head around the coal vs renewable costs.

Previously I asked you for a source for your claim
In another article, I saw that this technology is one third the cost of gas generation, to put this into comparison against fossil fuels. The sites are all outside national parks etc.

and your source
And how pumped storage in the middle of QLD is cheaper then gas:
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2016/s4729057.htm (http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2016/s4729057.htm)
--------- snip ----------
DOMINIQUE SCHWARTZ: Simon Kidson says the hydro scheme will be able to provide six hours of power for 200,000 homes across north Queensland.

SIMON KIDSTON: Coal-fired power is the cheapest power: and that's baseload power. What this project does is turns on or turns off very rapidly. So it really competes with the peaking generators, which are historically gas. And we're a fraction of the cost of gas.

DOMINIQUE SCHWARTZ: A fraction? What sort of fraction?

SIMON KIDSTON: Less than a third.

So, a couple of major fundamental issues here, firstly you are you mentioned "gas generation" he is talking about "peaking gas generation" peaking gas generation is where they generally spend 100's of millions to build a gas-fired power plant that can sit idle for literally 99.99% of the year and just kicks in for the 50-100 hours a year when everyone wants to turn their Aircon on at the same time. So, because you have large outlays, and a very small window for returns the cost per MWh is astronomical. This example you give could easily be a third of the cost of "peaking gas generation" but not general "gas generation" as claimed.
Secondly, this is a bad example in comparing the "technology" as the site where they are developing it is an exceptionally good site for PWH compared to just about anywhere else. The construction costs they have are minimal due to the fact the reservoirs already exist, as does piping between them and even some transmission lines, this all greatly reduces the time and cost involved in this instance but isn't indicative of the wider picture.

This gives a good overview:
https://theconversation.com/want-energy-storage-here-are-22-000-sites-for-pumped-hydro-across-australia-84275 (https://theconversation.com/want-energy-storage-here-are-22-000-sites-for-pumped-hydro-across-australia-84275)

Here is a reasonable critique of Andrew Blaker's report which includes a number of major issues with it. https://www.brightnewworld.org/s/Blakers-et-al-review-gz3p.pdf (https://www.brightnewworld.org/s/Blakers-et-al-review-gz3p.pdf)
For the tl;dr, from their conclusion "The confidence they express in the conclusions and their implications in both the document itself and recent media reports is not supported by evidence they provide."

Can you reciprocate and point me to recent article/report outlining the cost benefits of coal Vs renewables?

I can't see where I have ever claimed that so I don't know why you would want me to provide a link to it? I think that it isn't anywhere near as simple as a cost per unit generation comparison anyway, you need to also factor in certainty. For example, wind generation in and of itself might be the cheapest form of generation to build now (still more expensive than existing coal generation) but unless you only want to use electricity when the wind is blowing you need to factor in storage as well, that then makes it more expensive than its fossil-fueled alternatives.

If coal is equal, we should use renewable energy by default. yes?

If coal and renewables are the same cost for the same level of reliability, of course we should go with renewables. The issue is it's not yet close to the same price when you factor in a reliable system, I know Blaker's has claimed it can be in the near future but if you read the critique of his report, you will see some incorrect assumptions lead to incorrect costings. I am in no way against renewables or pro-coal, just try to be realistic about the situation.

In previous work many years ago I worked on large scale construction, coal mines and a power station and many large construction projects. Yes cost of construction is a factor, but I can't see how pumped storage construction would be larger then building coal powerstations! No way. Pump water up hill and generate down hill, not many moving parts compared to a power station, or coal wash plant and infrastructure.

Just to clarify, I am not for building new power plants, and yes building new coal-fired power plants would be a big job, but just to make sure you are comparing like for like, The Liddell plant that is scheduled for shutdown can produce 2000MW the QLD PWH you linked earlier will produce 250MW but only for 5 hrs a day, That means you would almost need 40 equivalent PWH setup's to produce the same power as the one coal-fired power plant, no small undertaking either.   
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: suby on September 23, 2017, 08:18:21 PM
Tryagain, It is disappointing that you can't even give one credible link to backup you arguments! This is just drivel. I must apologise, I just get sometimes frustrated that our government is pushing coal, for their own financial benefit from what I can see. The economics in my view just don't match up and its demonstrated in my posts . I think I have shown in recent times renewable power is cheaper or at a minimum equal to the cost of coal power, including storage. ( don't forget the huge time and cost to build coal power, and keeping it running) I have first hand experience working in both industries.

The running costs of solar, wind and storage, are under that of coal, and gas.  Adding the environmental impact in my view we need to away from Coal. The UN and developed countries are all moving this way (Though - Not trump, but the industry is because of economics). .   

Your only link (pdf) led me to the authors latest paper. Peer review tore it to shreds by real scientists .

Its a good read, though a lot of funny  comments from non scientists :
http://notrickszone.com/2017/04/17/new-paper-100-renewable-energy-not-feasible-unsupportable-and-reckless-keeps-poor-impoverished/#sthash.272knz1M.sG9iBzn1.dpbs (http://notrickszone.com/2017/04/17/new-paper-100-renewable-energy-not-feasible-unsupportable-and-reckless-keeps-poor-impoverished/#sthash.272knz1M.sG9iBzn1.dpbs)
http://johnquiggin.com/2017/04/10/burden-of-proof/ (http://johnquiggin.com/2017/04/10/burden-of-proof/)
And many more:

You also did not mention my link to Reputex, which has expertise in energy & climate policy and market analysis and you gave me a students paper to back up your view. Admittedly I did update my post to include the Reputex link this morning 2 hrs before your post. Still disappointed!

http://www.reputex.com/media-releases/rising-gas-price-falling-storage-costs-makes-renewables-cheapest-for-reliable-power-in-australia/ (http://www.reputex.com/media-releases/rising-gas-price-falling-storage-costs-makes-renewables-cheapest-for-reliable-power-in-australia/)

This sums it up:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/21/energy-policy-would-not-be-that-hard-if-the-government-wasnt-hamstrung-by-ideologues (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/21/energy-policy-would-not-be-that-hard-if-the-government-wasnt-hamstrung-by-ideologues)
Title: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on September 24, 2017, 08:03:34 AM
Here it is. The cold hard facts, not written by a journalist, no bias and no agendas.

It's long and detailed, but worth the read because once you know the whole story you can see why some of us get so agitated when we see the blatant lies that get printed by 'that' media outlet.

https://www.accc.gov.au/speech/shining-a-light-australia’s-gas-and-electricity-affordability-problem (https://www.accc.gov.au/speech/shining-a-light-australia’s-gas-and-electricity-affordability-problem)

Quote
Wholesale electricity prices have only increased recently, largely it seems in response to the closure of the Hazelwood and Northern power stations. The size of the wholesale price increases in response to these closures, of over 100%, has surprised most observers.

Two explanations for these stronger than expected wholesale price increases have been given.

First, changes in bidding patterns by the coal-fired generators that do not appear fully linked to increases in the cost of production. While such behaviour is clearly allowed under the rules, there is doubt about whether the rules ever envisaged a generation market as concentrated as what we now have.

In each state the combined market shares of the two or three most significant generators is well over 70%, sometimes much higher.

The closure of Hazelwood and Northern increased this level of concentration in Victoria and South Australia, and pushed overall capacity closer to demand levels such that more often the generators with high market shares could bid in high prices knowing they will be dispatched.

Generator market power was clearly seen in Queensland with two generators having two thirds of capacity and prices spiking. When the Queensland Government directed its generators to tone down their bidding, prices immediately reduced significantly.

While more generation investment would lower wholesale electricity prices, there are some important questions to be examined.

Do the major coal-fired generators have an incentive to invest given it would lower their current high profits?
What would happen to future demand if the current government subsidies to particular aluminium smelters were removed? Indeed, what would have been the effect on wholesale electricity prices if the Portland smelter in Victoria had closed when Hazelwood did?
How much of the perceived generation gap will be filled by now apparently competitive renewable energy projects, and who will own these projects?
The second explanation for the higher than expected increase in wholesale electricity prices post the closure of Hazelwood and Northern is much higher gas prices and tighter availability. Gas generation now sets the wholesale price around a third of the time in South Australia, and also at important times elsewhere.

While some gas-fired generators are on legacy contracts, some are now or soon could be paying at least three times what they once were for gas.

The third factor increasing electricity prices is the cost of the various green schemes; mostly the Renewable Energy Target and the various premium solar feed-in tariffs, but also energy efficiency measures.

We have had some stunningly generous green schemes. For example, in some states consumers were paid solar feed-in tariffs of 40-60 cents per kWh, many times the cost of energy, not only on the electricity they sent back to the grid, but also, amazingly, on the electricity they consumed themselves.

The cost of green schemes is not transparent; it is smeared over all electricity consumers and can appear costless to some. But they do cost consumers, often inequitably as those with solar panels are being subsidised by those who do not have them.

The average bill of a non-solar customer in the above chart is $1,749. An average residential solar customer has a much lower bill both through lower usage and through a benefit of $700 per year, on average, from solar feed-in payments.

Finally, increased retail costs and margins have played a significant part. Both seem higher than expected.

The retail electricity market is also highly concentrated, with three players (Origin, AGL and Energy Australia) with over 70% of customers. The next largest two players, taking shares in most states to around 90%, are also vertically integrated.

High levels of vertical integration can make it very difficult for others to compete. This concentration was, of course, made worse by the sale by the NSW Government of the Bayswater and Liddell generators (known together as Macquarie Generation) to AGL a few years back, which the ACCC strenuously but unsuccessfully opposed.

The retail electricity market is also characterised by very wide price dispersion (a consumer can save hundreds of dollars by moving from the worst to the best offer), great complexity (the best offers can be hard to find) and a lot of regulation with some unintended consequences.

And solutions??

Quote
First, getting rid of Limited Merits Review so that the regulator’s decisions (the AER) are subject to a review to see that an appropriate process was followed, rather than a review that in effect remakes the decision in ways that appear to always favour the network businesses.

That is, the electricity network sector will have the same regulatory regime as now applies in telecommunications. Consumers will not have to pay for inefficiency; network owners will still be appropriately rewarded for efficient costs.

Second, the Government is currently trying to get people off the worst retail offers, and the retailers have in response offered to take steps to do this. The ACCC will now monitor these steps, and more importantly the outcomes, carefully.

There are many lessons to be learnt from my description in section 2.2 above of what drove our high electricity prices, as follows.

First, weigh carefully what is spent to improve reliability, because consumers will pay for these measures.

Second, be very careful with new or enhanced ideas that incur costs that are to be smeared across all electricity users.

Third, think carefully about new retail regulations; they can have unintended consequences.

Fourth, and closely linked, realise that moves to re-regulate electricity prices will see many consumers pay more, and may see less of the innovation we now need.

Fifth, factor the existing market power in retail and generation into policy measures. Take steps that improve rather than worsen this situation.

Finally, and overall, keep a clear and separate focus on electricity affordability. We are told we have three issues to deal with in electricity: reliability, sustainability and affordability. Basic economics says with three problems you need three different solutions. Beware of “silver bullets” that are said to address all three objectives.

The ACCC has a tough job ahead. Australia’s electricity affordability issues have been a long time in the making and will be a long time in the solving, unfortunately. In our Interim Report we will lay out a full agenda which I will not pre-empt now.

Figure 7 below, however, lists some important issues that are or need to be considered to make electricity more affordable. They are helpfully aligned with the contribution to electricity affordability from each part of the value chain. Doing this focusses attention on the key cost areas.

Figure 7 addressing affordability


This list is different from much of the current discussion concerning electricity affordability.

If the above lessons are learnt, and given the steps already taken by the Government or that will hopefully be taken as a result of our work, I am hopeful of some quick improvements, and continued downward pressure on electricity prices.


I haven't quoted any of the ACCC chairman's comments on gas. Have a read of the whole speech in the link above as the picture is much bigger then these couple of quotes.

It's a real pity that basically none of these facts will make it into the vast majority of articles or 'news' stories about this topic. :(
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on September 24, 2017, 08:49:30 AM
I think I have shown in recent times renewable power is cheaper or at a minimum equal to the cost of coal power, including storage.

Can you explain the bit about storage.......or in a simpler term, base load power ? To my (limited) knowledge, except during winter when the snowy dams are full and we can generate some hydro, which isn't renewable energy, I don't know of anywhere in Australia that is AT PRESENT storing renewable energy ?
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on September 24, 2017, 09:48:18 AM
Tryagain, It is disappointing that you can't even give one credible link to backup you arguments!

sigh

Most of my points are pretty explanatory and therefore don't really need a link to "back it up" but feel free to actually point out what is wrong with them, not just for some strange reason think if I haven't attached a link at the bottom it is wrong. Then there is the issue of that a number of your linked documents don't actually back up the claim you are making.

I must apologise, I just get sometimes frustrated that our government is pushing coal, for their own financial benefit from what I can see. The economics in my view just don't match up and its demonstrated in my posts . I think I have shown in recent times renewable power is cheaper or at a minimum equal to the cost of coal power, including storage. ( don't forget the huge time and cost to build coal power, and keeping it running) I have first hand experience working in both industries.

I think the distinction between new coal-fired power and existing coal-fired power needs to be made here, I haven't ever contented that the LCOE (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source) for new power plants for cleaner coal is cheaper, nor do I think the government is contending this, from one of your earlier links "In 2017, the marginal cost of generating power from an existing coal station is less than $40/MWh, while wind power is $60-70/MWh" (https://theconversation.com/factcheck-qanda-is-coal-still-cheaper-than-renewables-as-an-energy-source-81263) I haven't seen the government arguing for new coal-fired power plants, what I think they would like to with Liddell, for example, is hold onto the $40/MWh generation as long as possible before realistically doubling the cost (factoring in storage) for its replacement. Whether that is even possible to do due to the ageing infrastructure is debatable. 

Your only link (pdf) led me to the authors latest paper. Peer review tore it to shreds by real scientists .
Its a good read, though a lot of funny  comments from non scientists :
http://notrickszone.com/2017/04/17/new-paper-100-renewable-energy-not-feasible-unsupportable-and-reckless-keeps-poor-impoverished/#sthash.272knz1M.sG9iBzn1.dpbs (http://notrickszone.com/2017/04/17/new-paper-100-renewable-energy-not-feasible-unsupportable-and-reckless-keeps-poor-impoverished/#sthash.272knz1M.sG9iBzn1.dpbs)
http://johnquiggin.com/2017/04/10/burden-of-proof/ (http://johnquiggin.com/2017/04/10/burden-of-proof/)

A number of points here, 1)The 2nd linked article is too an economist, not a "real scientist" the first I can't find any information on to know what his qualifications might be. 2) I think "tore it to shreds" is a very unrepresentative conclusion from his critique. 3) That paper has nothing to do with his critique of Blaker's. 4) The Irony of your position of an unrelated paper not (in your opinion) standing up to peer review, yet you happily base a lot of your points on Blaker's report that he hasn't submitted it to any journals to be peer-reviewed, contrary to standard practice.
This whole point has just been a red herring.



You also did not mention my link to Reputex, which has expertise in energy & climate policy and market analysis and you gave me a Published award-winning post grad PhD students paper who is researching in this exact field. FTFY to back up your view. Admittedly I did update my post to include the Reputex link this morning 2 hrs before your post. Still disappointed!

http://www.reputex.com/media-releases/rising-gas-price-falling-storage-costs-makes-renewables-cheapest-for-reliable-power-in-australia/ (http://www.reputex.com/media-releases/rising-gas-price-falling-storage-costs-makes-renewables-cheapest-for-reliable-power-in-australia/)


I didn't see this link until this reply, I had already started on my response before you made the change as I was just doing it in among other things, it also takes a lot more time to rebut incorrect assertions than to make them.

This is the best source you have provided so far, I always said gas would predominantly be used for the transition from coal to renewables. According to this article that window has closed, I would like to see a bit more of a detailed report and it's critique before I accept it just based on their say so, especially as they are a private entity working for companies with vested interests. The bigger picture on this that makes this possible is the trebling of the domestic gas price and the predicted continued price hikes due to the cartel-like pricing currently on the east coast which has seen Australian gas in Japan at half the price it is in Australia.  (https://www.michaelwest.com.au/its-a-gas-australian-gas-prices-are-a-bargain-in-japan/) Some (not unlikely) government intervention in gas supply would see this equation change somewhat.
 
This sums it up:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/21/energy-policy-would-not-be-that-hard-if-the-government-wasnt-hamstrung-by-ideologues (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/21/energy-policy-would-not-be-that-hard-if-the-government-wasnt-hamstrung-by-ideologues)


Well, that's an opinion piece from the Guardian that has areputation as a platform for liberal and left-wing editorial. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian) It seems way too simplistic and convenient to place all the blame at the feet of the Federal Liberal party. That's not to say that they shouldn't have anything to say, just that I read it realising they have a left-leaning agenda, just like The Australian has a right-leaning agenda.
 
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: suby on September 24, 2017, 07:57:28 PM
Here it is. The cold hard facts, not written by a journalist, no bias and no agendas.

It's long and detailed, but worth the read because once you know the whole story you can see why some of us get so agitated when we see the blatant lies that get printed by 'that' media outlet.

https://www.accc.gov.au/speech/shining-a-light-australia’s-gas-and-electricity-affordability-problem (https://www.accc.gov.au/speech/shining-a-light-australia’s-gas-and-electricity-affordability-problem)

And solutions??


I haven't quoted any of the ACCC chairman's comments on gas. Have a read of the whole speech in the link above as the picture is much bigger then these couple of quotes.

It's a real pity that basically none of these facts will make it into the vast majority of articles or 'news' stories about this topic. :(

Thanks, Its a good read.
What I take away from this is, Gas and Electricity are in a mess for lots of reasons. The main points I think are:
- Successive governments not investing in or developing policy and or regulation of power generation and network improvement and development,
- Privatisation without proper oversight or legislation/rules to govern operation of both Gas and electricity markets and supply,
- Vertical integration by the large players
- Unforeseen events without having contingency plans to address both gas and electricity supply.   

Cheers,
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: suby on September 24, 2017, 08:18:12 PM

Tryagain, I am not going to debate you any more, I have a life to live.  You and the COALition keep trying to flog Liddell. Its a dead horse. I think you would be better reading Pete79 post, and get an understanding of the problems. If you know the problems you know how to fix the the problem, yes?

Gas and Electricity are in a mess for lots of reasons. The main points I think are:
- Successive governments not investing in or developing policy and or regulation of power generation and network improvement and development,
- Privatisation without proper oversight or legislation/rules to govern operation of both Gas and electricity markets and supply,
- Vertical integration by the large players
- Unforeseen events without having contingency plans to address both gas and electricity supply.   

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: GeoffA on September 24, 2017, 08:20:20 PM
Is there an echo in here, in here, in here?
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on September 24, 2017, 09:08:52 PM
Can you explain the bit about storage.......or in a simpler term, base load power ? To my (limited) knowledge, except during winter when the snowy dams are full and we can generate some hydro, which isn't renewable energy, I don't know of anywhere in Australia that is AT PRESENT storing renewable energy ?

????????????
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Symon on September 24, 2017, 09:47:25 PM
Tryagain, I am not going to debate you any more, I have a life to live.  You and the COALition keep trying to flog Liddell. Its a dead horse. I think you would be better reading Pete79 post, and get an understanding of the problems. If you know the problems you know how to fix the the problem, yes?

Sorry, but you throwing around terms like COALition just presents you, and your arguments, in the same light as a 12 year old pratt who is crying over his dropped ice cream.

The state of the energy market is the fault of both major parties, with a fairly significant influence from the Greens as well.  Labor is just as much at fault as the Coalition for the slow uptake of renewables, as well as the significant technical challenges of large scale generation from intermittent sources such as wind and solar.  You just have to look at the issues Germany faced when they imposed aggressive renewable targets on a network that was not ready for it.

It is a far more complex issue than your simplistic assumptions.  Yes Australia is well placed to take advantage of renewable sources, and we will over the next 20-30 years transition as the existing coal fired stations reach end of life, but to do so successfully needs methodical, rational thought - which is well beyond the ability of most politicians and the short-sighted and sensationalist mainstream media.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: suby on September 24, 2017, 10:14:27 PM
Can you explain the bit about storage.......or in a simpler term, base load power ? To my (limited) knowledge, except during winter when the snowy dams are full and we can generate some hydro, which isn't renewable energy, I don't know of anywhere in Australia that is AT PRESENT storing renewable energy ?

Pumped hydro is old technology that is use now within Australia to balance baseload power plants and solar and wind (connected to the grid). At the moment only a small fraction of Australia's power is generated by solar and wind. The majority of current power is from Coal, but we have an aging infrastructure and we are unlikely going build new coal power stations because of the carbon footprint of burning coal. Most if not all new generation will be from renewable energy.

Moving forward we will need to use several technologies to make it all work. Apparently it is not a big issue until you start to get about 50% renewables. Only South Australia is getting to around that mark. Most other states are not approaching this level at this time. The price problems and outages you may have had are not from renewable energy but from bad management and forward planning and policy development ( see my posts previous to this).

So given that renewables are going to be used. We need to fix the network and install storage to make it all work, when the sun does not shine and the wind does not blow, we still can get power at reasonable cost.  Just as we use pumped hydro previously to stabilise Coal baseload power stations, we need to do the same with renewable energy, only we need more of it. This pumped hydro is attached to the grid/network, so its connected to both coal power stations and solar and wind at the same time.

The network/grid needs to be improved so more interconnects are put between states and distributed new power generation. This is a problem that needs fixing to enable reliability. Our governments need to invest in policy/development as it has failed to meet uptime commitments, and will help reduce costs. Recent research has found many sites around Australia that could be used as pumped storage locations. Its best to keep this storage distributed across the grid/network.
 
Coal will be phased out over the next 30 years, over this time will be using existing of the shelf technology like pumped storage, solar, wind, battery, hydro, gas, and coal, and probably other and new technology ( not in any order).

We have international commitments to reduce  CO2, This is for our kids and grand kids to have a future.
 

From Wikipedia:
The most important use for pumped storage has traditionally been to balance baseload powerplants, but may also be used to abate the fluctuating output of intermittent energy sources. Pumped storage provides a load at times of high electricity output and low electricity demand, enabling additional system peak capacity. In certain jurisdictions, electricity prices may be close to zero or occasionally negative on occasions that there is more electrical generation available than there is load available to absorb it; although at present this is rarely due to wind or solar power alone, increased wind and solar generation will increase the likelihood of such occurrences. It is particularly likely that pumped storage will become especially important as a balance for very large scale photovoltaic generation.[12] Increased long distance transmission capacity combined with significant amounts of energy storage will be a crucial part of regulating any large-scale deployment of intermittent renewable power sources
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: suby on September 24, 2017, 10:19:45 PM
Sorry, but you throwing around terms like COALition just presents you, and your arguments, in the same light as a 12 year old pratt who is crying over his dropped ice cream.

The state of the energy market is the fault of both major parties, with a fairly significant influence from the Greens as well.  Labor is just as much at fault as the Coalition for the slow uptake of renewables, as well as the significant technical challenges of large scale generation from intermittent sources such as wind and solar.  You just have to look at the issues Germany faced when they imposed aggressive renewable targets on a network that was not ready for it.

It is a far more complex issue than your simplistic assumptions.  Yes Australia is well placed to take advantage of renewable sources, and we will over the next 20-30 years transition as the existing coal fired stations reach end of life, but to do so successfully needs methodical, rational thought - which is well beyond the ability of most politicians and the short-sighted and sensationalist mainstream media.

Okay I take your point. I need to stop it. And agree its not easy. We do need to get on with it though. The world in general will find the best way to get to renewables, despite all this, we will adapt. 
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on September 24, 2017, 11:12:32 PM
Pumped hydro is old technology that is use now within Australia to balance baseload power plants and solar and wind (connected to the grid).

Umm, where in Australia is pumped hydro being used ?
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Andy_Q on September 24, 2017, 11:36:11 PM
Umm, where in Australia is pumped hydro being used ?
The snowy scheme.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on September 24, 2017, 11:46:14 PM
Umm, where in Australia is pumped hydro being used ?

Currently, Tumit#3, Shoalhaven and Tarraleah in Tasmania, Wivenhoe and soon to be Kidston in FNQ
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: GeoffA on September 25, 2017, 05:49:36 AM
.........  Yes Australia is well placed to take advantage of renewable sources, and we will over the next 20-30 years transition as the existing coal fired stations reach end of life, but to do so successfully needs methodical, rational thought - which is well beyond the ability of most politicians and the short-sighted and sensationalist mainstream media.

.....and the greens....
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on September 25, 2017, 06:42:39 AM
The snowy scheme.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Is it ?   I wasn't aware of any of the stations pumping their water back up the top again ? I assumed they were all gravity fed ?
Title: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on September 25, 2017, 06:58:15 AM
I haven't seen the government arguing for new coal-fired power plants


;)
Quote
Mr Abbott also suggested governments should build coal-fired power stations.

"Power generation is an essential service and if the market won't build coal-fired power stations, if the market won't build base load power, the government has got to," he said.


Hehe, sorry couldn't resist... ;) ;D


Can't forget the link.
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/tony-abbott-criticises-government-on-energy-policy-samesex-marriage-plebiscite-20170919-gykrys.html (http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/tony-abbott-criticises-government-on-energy-policy-samesex-marriage-plebiscite-20170919-gykrys.html)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on September 25, 2017, 09:08:24 AM
Important bits are in bold

Quote
I haven't seen the government arguing for new coal-fired power plants


Quote
Mr Abbott also suggested governments should build coal-fired power stations.


Quote
Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull says his Government has no plans to build a new coal-fired power station (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-28/malcolm-turnbull-says-no-plans-to-build-or-fund-coal-power/8850332)


 ;D
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on September 25, 2017, 09:20:14 AM
Is it ?   I wasn't aware of any of the stations pumping their water back up the top again ? I assumed they were all gravity fed ?
The only one that pumps back up in the Snowy Scheme is Tumut 3 Power Station.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Symon on September 25, 2017, 03:00:37 PM
Worth a read - http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-25/the-truth-about-soaring-power-prices/8979860 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-25/the-truth-about-soaring-power-prices/8979860)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: mrdenn1s on September 25, 2017, 03:45:47 PM
Come on, hard to blame him. It all started when each government started to sell off the power stations etc.  Now you have big companies whos job is to make money.  Just be glad you can switch. We have no choice because we do not live in south east Queensland.  Kevin

Nothing to do with that. In fact, states that have privatised have the cheapest network and power prices. The issue is the change to renewables. Each new wind farm or solar farm needs to be paid for. As does the grid upgrades to handle power generation usually in places where the grid wasn't designed to handle it.

Wind power currently is being generated at around $65 / MWH. Solar is around $85 / MWH

Existing coal is below $40 / MWH.

Therefore, the cost of the renewable power is about 50% more expensive than the coal it is replacing.

Renewables physically cannot be cheaper currently than existing coal. Anyone that tells you it is is misinformed or a liar.

Add on to that transmission line upgrades that the networks need to do to ensure that this generation can flow.

That's why your power prices are going up.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: mrdenn1s on September 25, 2017, 03:51:59 PM
Umm, where in Australia is pumped hydro being used ?

Kangaroo Valley. Been operating since the 70's
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on September 25, 2017, 04:39:46 PM
Worth a read - http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-25/the-truth-about-soaring-power-prices/8979860 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-25/the-truth-about-soaring-power-prices/8979860)

It is

I remember reading that the take-up of Air Conditioners was one of the main reasons for the increase in electricity bills, this is because they are the main driver of peak demand and therefore the main driver of network costs which are the main driver of increased energy costs.
Just found a reference to it, from the 2012 Energy White Paper, it basically says that at the time for every 2kw ($1500 at the time) of Airconditiner purchased, it costs the network up to $7000 in network costs to cope with the peak demand. Air conditioners have also come down in cost a lot now compared to that so the equation is likely even worse.

https://www.energymatters.com.au/renewable-news/em3459/ (https://www.energymatters.com.au/renewable-news/em3459/)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on September 25, 2017, 06:43:39 PM
Kangaroo Valley. Been operating since the 70's

It uses "excess" electricity to pump water back up.   I might ring up my provider and see if I can get some "excess" electricity ??
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on September 26, 2017, 10:30:01 AM



Australia will need up to three-quarters of its electricity coming from renewables by 2030 if it is to cut emissions in the cheapest way under a clean energy target.

But a new analysis from the Australia Institute finds the same emissions cut could be achieved with fewer renewables under a carbon price or an emissions intensity scheme - two policies rejected by the Turnbull government.

The think tank's analysis of modelling done for government agencies, released on Monday, finds the energy sector should do the heavy lifting if Australia is to meet its international emission reduction pledge in the most efficient way.

This is largely because the electricity sector can easily turn to renewables using technology already commercially available, while sectors such as agriculture, construction and manufacturing would have to either cut production or invest heavily in research.

Australia has committed under the UN-led Paris agreement to cut its emissions by 26-28 per cent below 2005 levels by 2030.

If electricity is to take on a comparatively higher burden of this task, Australia Institute research director Rod Campbell says it should cut emissions by 40-55 per cent by 2030.

To achieve this using a clean energy target - the policy the government is now considering - would lead to renewables making up between two-thirds and three-quarters of generation by 2030, the analysis finds.

This is substantially higher than Labor's aim for 50 per cent renewables, which the government has ridiculed.

But if cuts were achieved using a carbon price or an emissions intensity scheme, there would be more gas generation and less renewables.

"It is ironic that government-commissioned modelling shows that the policies that would minimise renewable energy penetration, such as carbon pricing and an EIS, have already been rejected," Mr Campbell writes.

"All that remains is the CET that would bring in the largest share of renewable generation, or the prospect of failing to meet our Paris climate targets."

Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull is facing pressure within the coalition to reshape or weaken the clean energy target to encourage the extension or further take-up of coal-fired power.

Institute executive director Ben Oquist warned the analysis showed if the government adopted a weak clean energy target, it risked making a very expensive task of reaching Australia's Paris agreement target.

He points out the government has consistently pledged to stick to its international obligations.

"It remains to be seen if we choose to meet those Paris commitments the easy way, or the hard way," he said.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on September 26, 2017, 06:48:46 PM




"It remains to be seen if we choose to meet those Paris commitments the easy way, or the hard way," he said.

Either way, it will be hard on our pockets. To show the world we care.....we have set ourselves up for prolonged hip pocket pain.

Same with the gas....too busy selling it all without doing some basic sums on how much WE actually need ?
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: alnjan on September 26, 2017, 07:01:31 PM
Well we can't ride on the back of the sheep anymore to prosper and really our days of mining are numbered so what is next
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on September 26, 2017, 08:10:23 PM
Well we can't ride on the back of the sheep anymore to prosper and really our days of mining are numbered so what is next

Fertilizer trade.  Cull and mulch up all the dead beat pollies, kiddy fiddlin priests, rapists, murderers, druggies and domestic violence pricks. Sell overseas for farming fertilizer and we will have a booming trade.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: koshari on September 26, 2017, 09:05:52 PM
Fertilizer trade.  Cull and mulch up all the dead beat pollies, kiddy fiddlin priests, rapists, murderers, druggies and domestic violence pricks. Sell overseas for farming fertilizer and we will have a booming trade.

i dont think it would be sustainable......
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on September 26, 2017, 09:30:14 PM
i dont think it would be sustainable......
I would have said it's renewable, they seam to keep popping up every day.
As quick as we sack 'em or jail 'em there's another back in the news again.... ;)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on September 26, 2017, 10:09:57 PM
I would have said it's renewable, they seam to keep popping up every day.
As quick as we sack 'em or jail 'em there's another back in the news again.... ;)


Nope, fertiliser plants are becoming unsustainable here in part due to the high gas prices.

http://www.bca.com.au/media/why-incitec-pivot-built-a-factory-in-the-us-not-australia (http://www.bca.com.au/media/why-incitec-pivot-built-a-factory-in-the-us-not-australia)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on September 26, 2017, 10:25:27 PM
Nope, fertiliser plants are becoming unsustainable here in part due to the high gas prices.

http://www.bca.com.au/media/why-incitec-pivot-built-a-factory-in-the-us-not-australia (http://www.bca.com.au/media/why-incitec-pivot-built-a-factory-in-the-us-not-australia)

Hmmm, not sure if I should continue the joke and say that Incitec built their fertilizer plant in the US because there is more dodgy politicians, pedo priests and wife beaters over there. ;)
Or take this comment seriously and say the yanks can have their water taps that catch on fire and critically sick kids caused by all that unregulated fracking causing so many toxic water supplies in so many towns... :(
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on September 27, 2017, 07:44:57 AM
Hmmm, not sure if I should continue the joke and say that Incitec built their fertilizer plant in the US because there is more dodgy politicians, pedo priests and wife beaters over there. ;)
Or take this comment seriously and say the yanks can have their water taps that catch on fire and critically sick kids caused by all that unregulated fracking causing so many toxic water supplies in so many towns... :(


I enjoyed watching the film clip of the chap in a small tinny going down the Condamine river and lighting the gas bubbles as they rose to surface.  Just proves what a smart creature man is..NOT.   
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on September 27, 2017, 08:51:40 AM
I haven't really looked at CSG enough to form an opinion on it   but this is an interesting read regarding the bubbling in the Condamine River http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/condamine-river-bubbling-unlikely-to-be-caused-by-coal-seam-gas-csiro-says/news-story/2fc275249743047db216af9a3d6ce6eb (http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/condamine-river-bubbling-unlikely-to-be-caused-by-coal-seam-gas-csiro-says/news-story/2fc275249743047db216af9a3d6ce6eb)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: alnjan on September 27, 2017, 11:41:42 AM
There is enough evidence of the dangers and damages caused by fracking, just not enough to over turn the $$$$ behind fracking regardless of the short and long term detriment of not just the environment but those living where there is fracking. 
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on September 27, 2017, 11:46:10 AM
Quote from: alnjan
There is enough evidence of the dangers and damages caused by fracking, just not enough to over turn the $$$$ behind fracking regardless of the short and long term detriment of not just the environment but those living where there is fracking.

... frackin' hell!
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on September 27, 2017, 09:11:40 PM

I enjoyed watching the film clip of the chap in a small tinny going down the Condamine river and lighting the gas bubbles as they rose to surface.  Just proves what a smart creature man is..NOT.

While fracking can and does cause problems like methane escaping into a river, it can and does occur naturally as well.

Coal seams contain methane gas, and it can be released naturally, but with fracking, the stuff they pump down into the seams would be more of a worry than methane leaking into a river !!
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on October 10, 2017, 07:28:32 AM
Wow! Just wow!!!

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/tony-abbott-says-climate-change-could-be-beneficial-because-more-people-die-20171009-gyxi9y.html (http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/tony-abbott-says-climate-change-could-be-beneficial-because-more-people-die-20171009-gyxi9y.html)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: glenm64 on October 10, 2017, 08:23:06 AM
Wow! Just wow!!!

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/tony-abbott-says-climate-change-could-be-beneficial-because-more-people-die-20171009-gyxi9y.html (http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/tony-abbott-says-climate-change-could-be-beneficial-because-more-people-die-20171009-gyxi9y.html)
An optimist? Or just plain stupid!
I wonder why he doesnt tell Aussies they need more heat waves? Probably cause he knows they'll tell him hes a d*ckhead.
And these are the sort of people that get to made the decisions that will effect our prodgenies.
No wonder so many people have had a gut full.

Cheers Glen

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Paddler Ed on October 10, 2017, 08:33:23 AM
Got my electricity bill through yesterday. $220 for the quarter. We average 4.2kw/day which does help, gas is on top of that for hot water ($100 a cylinder every quarter ish)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: alnjan on October 10, 2017, 09:36:08 AM
Wow! Just wow!!!

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/tony-abbott-says-climate-change-could-be-beneficial-because-more-people-die-20171009-gyxi9y.html (http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/tony-abbott-says-climate-change-could-be-beneficial-because-more-people-die-20171009-gyxi9y.html)


Considering there is a growing push to do a total revisit on the climate change science by a growing number of scientist maybe he is not too far off the mark. 
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on October 10, 2017, 04:48:12 PM
Considering there is a growing push to do a total revisit on the climate change science by a growing number of scientist maybe he is not too far off the mark.

I,d rather believe that Rolf Harris  is innocent than believe anything the abbotmoron says.  He,s just a pathetic has been yelling from the background scared that people wont remember him...we remember him..tosser.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: suby on October 10, 2017, 11:26:22 PM
I,d rather believe that Rolf Harris  is innocent than believe anything the abbotmoron says.  He,s just a pathetic has been yelling from the background scared that people wont remember him...we remember him..tosser.

Just saw lateline now Origin as well as AGL say its cheaper to use renewable. Yet no direction from the current government about long term strategy for power. Only Tony chipping in with his view... yep what a tosser he is.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on October 11, 2017, 07:30:53 AM
I'm guessing Joe Hockey won't be visiting FNQ anytime soon... ;)

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-11/giant-wind-farm-components-far-north-queensland/9036044?pfmredir=sm (http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-11/giant-wind-farm-components-far-north-queensland/9036044?pfmredir=sm)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on October 11, 2017, 07:56:09 AM
There is no hope..
Quote
Gas bill for couple's empty unit tops $5k for 3 months
It's no secret that gas and electricity prices have skyrocketed in recent times. But Wally and Jenny Jacobs' three most recent gas bills left them gobsmacked.

The semi-retired couple, who live in Brisbane for most of the year, say they have only spent a total of about three weeks in their Melbourne three-bedroom unit this year, which remains vacant the remainder of the time.

...

Mystified, Mrs Jacobs rang their provider, AGL, who told her they had experienced troubles accessing the meter at the Hawthorn East unit, and had based the previous bills on an estimate.

Mrs Jacobs says their gate, which allows access to the meter, had been unlocked since March.

"They said 'don't worry we'll send someone down to read the meter'. But when the next bill comes down and it's an estimate too, it's all too much for the brain," Mrs Jacobs said.
A third bill, also an estimate, added new charges of $677 for the period of July 28 to September 22, leaving them with a staggering bill of $5440 for a total of 179 days.
http://www.theage.com.au/business/consumer-affairs/its-totally-bloody-ridiculous-gas-bill-for-couples-empty-unit-tops-5k-20171004-gytzx8.html (http://www.theage.com.au/business/consumer-affairs/its-totally-bloody-ridiculous-gas-bill-for-couples-empty-unit-tops-5k-20171004-gytzx8.html)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Fizzie on October 11, 2017, 08:51:23 AM
Unfortunately, I can back that one up :'(

We lost the FiL back in April, so his unit has been empty since then as we're trying to sell it.

Paid the electricity bill for May - August the other day - $122! >:(

The break-up of that is 7kwh of electricity (us vacumning & cleaning & real estate turning lights on - hot water has been switched off since April) = ~$1.80

Paper bill = $1.50

Remaining ~$119 = daily service charge >:(

So it would cost you ~$500 a year just for the privilege of having electricity connected, without actually using any! >:(
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: krisandkev on October 11, 2017, 01:37:44 PM
Unfortunately, I can back that one up :'(

We lost the FiL back in April, so his unit has been empty since then as we're trying to sell it.

Paid the electricity bill for May - August the other day - $122! >:(

The break-up of that is 7kwh of electricity (us vacumning & cleaning & real estate turning lights on - hot water has been switched off since April) = ~$1.80

Paper bill = $1.50

Remaining ~$119 = daily service charge >:(

So it would cost you ~$500 a year just for the privilege of having electricity connected, without actually using any! >:(

In our farm shed the service fee for electricity use to be about $25 a quarter, a few years back it jumped to just over $100 a quarter!  Nice little increase.  Be nice if our wages also jumped that percentage.  Kevin
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Patr80l on October 11, 2017, 02:10:26 PM
I haven't been following this but  this thread has been up for too long for my OCD to cope.


*too
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: corndog on October 11, 2017, 03:42:55 PM
On a side note, we have an onsite caravan at Bright Victoria. The owners are now charging electricity service fees. Means we now pay our site fees, electricity used and the new service fee of around $128 per quarter, even though we might not be there for that quarter.  They have increased our stay limit to 100 days, but hen who has 100 days to spend on holidays, unless your retired.
Money for jam I thinks.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Patr80l on October 11, 2017, 04:01:13 PM
On a side note, we have an onsite caravan at Bright Victoria. The owners are now charging electricity service fees. Means we now pay our site fees, electricity used and the new service fee of around $128 per quarter, even though we might not be there for that quarter.  They have increased our stay limit to 100 days, but hen who has 100 days to spend on holidays, unless your retired.
Money for jam I thinks.


*you're



(Grammar nazi)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Nomad on October 11, 2017, 07:55:31 PM
I paid my first monthly bill to Click Energy yesterday. It was $130. So equating that out over a quarter $390. As oppossed to the $580 I paid origin on my last bill. We don't use heaters or aircon and I have gas hotwater.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on October 11, 2017, 08:14:00 PM
I paid my first monthly bill to Click Energy yesterday. It was $130. So equating that out over a quarter $390. As oppossed to the $580 I paid origin on my last bill. We don't use heaters or aircon and I have gas hotwater.

We were with click for years, just changed to Alinta due to them being better for us, with click, the first two monthly payments are just estimated amounts, the final one for he quarter will be different and based on the actual read. If you haven't already have a look at Alinta as they are giving good discounts to enter the Qld market. You need to sit down and look at the the rates, the discounts and what they apply to and your typical usage to compare what's best for you though.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on October 11, 2017, 08:22:12 PM
I do the ring around every year and they are always within 10% of each other.

One gives early payment discount. One has low daily service fees, but high kWh rates. One has the opposite.

We have no AC, no pool, no special high consumption appliances.

I care about them exactly the same as they care about me, jump ship every year if I have to and keep that awesome 10% for myself...... yep it's a bad joke.

Will check out Alinta on my next ring-a-round.

Thanks mate.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on October 11, 2017, 09:51:02 PM
On a side note, we have an onsite caravan at Bright Victoria. The owners are now charging electricity service fees. Means we now pay our site fees, electricity used and the new service fee of around $128 per quarter, even though we might not be there for that quarter.  They have increased our stay limit to 100 days, but hen who has 100 days to spend on holidays, unless your retired.
Money for jam I thinks.

Have friends with an onsite van and they are getting charged $30/quarter for a meter reading.. I read it for them and it took approx 6 seconds.....nice little earner for the park !!
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: ATC on October 11, 2017, 10:10:31 PM

We were with click for years, just changed to Alinta due to them being better for us, with click, the first two monthly payments are just estimated amounts, the final one for he quarter will be different and based on the actual read. If you haven't already have a look at Alinta as they are giving good discounts to enter the Qld market. You need to sit down and look at the the rates, the discounts and what they apply to and your typical usage to compare what's best for you though.
Was using Click Energy, through a One Big Switch campaign, but they jacked up their prices in July.

Alinta were a lot cheaper where i live, we get 30% off their rack rate, so its cheaper now than we were paying on click before the rate rise.

Now I wont take a fixed contract, but will review every 3-6 months and change.
Energy companies don't reward loyalty, so they don't get any back.


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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on October 12, 2017, 09:14:35 AM
Was using Click Energy, through a One Big Switch campaign, but they jacked up their prices in July.
I think its going to be like insurance companies... give you the "Welcome new sucker" rate... then after few/12mths then jack it up bit by bit hoping people wont notice.

we changed to Lumo and cant wait to **** them off. hoping AGL/Origin will match the rate and go back with the real companies
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: glenm64 on October 12, 2017, 10:11:46 AM
Interesting read.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2017-10-12/renewable-energy-baseload-power/9033336


Cheers Glen

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on October 13, 2017, 09:55:54 AM
Interesting read.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2017-10-12/renewable-energy-baseload-power/9033336 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2017-10-12/renewable-energy-baseload-power/9033336)


Cheers Glen


Very interesting reading..... Thanks Mate.

Now the only thing the alternative power producers need is a few billion dollars for lobbying to combat the billions of dollars that the mining/coal industry uses every year to keep the politicians singing the same songs. ;)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on October 13, 2017, 01:04:24 PM
small exert ... funny read the whole article though


Quote
Sam Borazio recently opened a coin laundry in the south-east Melbourne suburb of Bentleigh.

He has received high gas bills based on estimated use instead of actual use, because his energy provider alleges his meter is blocked by a gate.

He received two gas bills while he was still setting up the business, before he had even hooked up the appliances and started using the fuel.

"My last two gas bills have been estimated," Mr Borazio said.

"They were ridiculously high. When I enquired with my gas company, Origin, I was told that the meter reader could not access the gas meter because the gate was locked."

Yet he does not have a gate at the premises. Instead, the "very large" gas meter sits next to the front door of the business, which is open from 6am to 10pm, seven days a week.

Asked about Mr Borazio's case, an Origin spokesman said: "As a retailer, Origin does not read gas meters, but we do work with customers and network businesses to help resolve issues when they occur.

"Wherever ... possible, we expect to receive timely and accurate meter reads from network businesses from which to bill our customers."





http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/they-were-ridiculously-high-flood-of-complaints-over-eyewatering-gas-bills-20171010-gyygm4.html (http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/they-were-ridiculously-high-flood-of-complaints-over-eyewatering-gas-bills-20171010-gyygm4.html)
Title: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Garfish on October 16, 2017, 06:45:50 PM
Accc released their initial findings suggesting that network costs are one of the main contributors to cost increases
https://www.accc.gov.au/publications/accc-retail-electricity-pricing-inquiry-preliminary-report

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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on November 17, 2017, 08:08:00 AM
Some more fact facts. ;D
Once again they don’t fit in with some political/editorial agendas, but the truth often doesn’t fit in with agendas..... ;)

 http://abc.net.au/news/2017-11-17/curious-adelaide-the-problem-of-power/9158240?pfmredir=sm (http://abc.net.au/news/2017-11-17/curious-adelaide-the-problem-of-power/9158240?pfmredir=sm)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Fizzie on November 17, 2017, 08:52:17 AM
So it certainly appears that the primary focus of the whole set-up is to make as much money as possible for the power companies, & to buggery with the household budget >:(
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on November 17, 2017, 09:43:46 AM
It just blows my mind that politicians try and defend the way this market works.

Quote
Essentially, the final megawatt of energy dispatched by the market operator to meet the required demand sets the price paid to every other operating generator.

Now read that carefully;
The most expensive energy supplier sets the price for every other operating generator...... Seriously... WTF...!!

Quote
let's pretend you need to buy 100 apples.
One wholesaler might be willing to sell you 99 apples at 10 cents each. But you still need one more apple.
If the next most expensive wholesaler is offering his apples at $10 each, you will have to pay $10 for each and every one of those apples!

The same goes for electricity.
If the last generator to be dispatched is offering its energy at $14,000 then everyone gets paid $14,000 — even those who had offered their electricity to the market for nothing.

How do you like them apples?
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: prodigyrf on November 17, 2017, 10:25:43 AM
The most expensive energy supplier sets the price for every other operating generator...... Seriously... WTF...!!

Well it's a bit like your boss having to pay you the last national wage case amount even though you mightn't be worth it or perhaps you're worth over award but you know how it is. If we as a community don't pay the price of the last worst case marginal cost supplier then some of us will miss out on the particular good or service, which is a real problem with a good like electricity whereby we need a certain voltage and frequency or the whole grid is no use to any of us. Unlike mobile phones, electricity is an homogenous good and you don't get a choice between a second hand Windows phone and an iphoneX. If it costs iphoneX prices to satisfy everyone then that's what we all have to pay, particularly if Gummint has mandated a Green tick standard that only the iphoneX measures up to. We put our hands up for that remember.

But that's not fair that in order to fill our bellies and save us all from starvation some farmers have more productive land than others and with lower costs of production they're getting a big quid while the most marginal farmer is on the bones of his backside. Ah yes but that's always been the way whereby our farming ancestors grabbed the low hanging fruit and drove those current land prices accordingly. Go for your life with the cheap cost of land in the Simpson Desert if that's what floats your boat but the marketplace for food and the cost of inputs for production is what it is. Mind you if you can get some politicians to get your snout in the taxpayer trough in doing that then so much the better and Devil take the hindmost  >:D
http://reneweconomy.com.au/world-first-solar-tower-powered-tomato-farm-opens-port-augusta-41643/ (http://reneweconomy.com.au/world-first-solar-tower-powered-tomato-farm-opens-port-augusta-41643/)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: prodigyrf on November 17, 2017, 10:36:22 AM
Oh I get it now! (smacks forehead). Some of you thought you deserved to only pay the cheapest cost of producing electricity and leave the rest of us to pay for the dearer cost stuff  :'(
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on November 17, 2017, 10:52:43 AM
Oh I get it now! (smacks forehead). Some of you thought you deserved to only pay the cheapest cost of producing electricity and leave the rest of us to pay for the dearer cost stuff  :'(

Nope...
Just want to pay what the actual supplier is charging. ;)

If those evil renewables can produce even half of your required demand and the producer only wants to charge you $5 per megawatt, then that's what you should pay for half of your supply.
If the remaining half of you required demand has to come for the other state's gas or coal fired plants and they want to charge $500 or $5000 per megawatt , then that's what you should pay for that half.

From what I understand (and I'm far from an expert) currently you're paying the $500 or $5000 for all of your power regardless of what the other suppliers want to charge you.
If that fits with your ideology on this subject that's fine. Just doesn't make any sense to this layman....

Just wondering if this energy market system can be applied to petrol prices too?
There's an industry standard set to all suppliers of that product, if BP want to charge $15/L for their 98 octane fuel does that mean all 98 octane fuel needs to be sold by every other retailer at $15/L?
Or is that not how free markets work???
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: prodigyrf on November 17, 2017, 11:30:33 AM
Well unfortunately it's like this if you only want to pay cheap prices for renewables like wind-
http://anero.id/energy/wind-energy/2017/june (http://anero.id/energy/wind-energy/2017/june)
Now while that wind energy sector produces on average 30% of installed capacity over a year you can see that hides a multitude of marginal sins and some days you won't have to pay anything because you won't be getting anything. As for solar to run just a modest Sawafuji swing compressor and not a modern industrial society I'll leave that to the experienced folk here as to the investment required and the fossil fuel needed to drag it all around with them.

It's like this. We currently have a majority of people in this country who are Hell bent on trying to disprove a fundamental axiom of engineering, namely that you can't build a reliable system from unreliable componentry. If your apprentice mechanic didn't get that iron law by second year you'd have to sack him for the sake of your customers. These being the same customers who if car manufacturers dished up cars like that wind energy sector produces electricity would be screaming for lemon laws.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on November 17, 2017, 03:39:09 PM
So it certainly appears that the primary focus of the whole set-up is to make as much money as possible for the power companies, & to buggery with the household budget >:(

That's exactly what happened when the powers that be decided to sell off OUR assets !! A company with shareholders needs to show a continued expansion in profit margins, something the government didn't have to do. Sure, the government could have run the assets a lot better, but it was easier for them to take a quick buck and sell them.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on November 17, 2017, 05:40:59 PM
few mths ago we left origin for Lumo.. what a ****in abortion they are.. heading back to origin and not passing go, **** the speed cameras too
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: DrewXT on November 17, 2017, 08:06:50 PM
few mths ago we left origin for Lumo.. what a ****in abortion they are.. heading back to origin and not passing go, **** the speed cameras too
You have to ride Lumo to get their billing right.  Once they do, they're ok, because you don't have to talk to the ****tards in their call centre.

Simply Energy are pretty good to deal with

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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on November 18, 2017, 07:23:04 AM
Lumo ??  Ha ha, sounds like a kids toy company !!
Never heard of them over here in the eastern states. It's a shame you have to continually chase a cheaper deal because they all try to screw you at every turn.
I agree with the comment that we should only pay for whatever each company bids for each day, not the adjusted high price. One company that bids at $5 knows that even if they could afford to offer it at $5, it will always default to a much higher price, which is exactly what they like.....more profit.
Whether you like coal or not, it was our major source of baseload ( still is ) ,  and at times of need, like a hot summers night, the wick could be turned up easily and cheaply, but especially in SA's case, that now means having to buy expensive baseload power because the companies supplying it have them by the short and curlys.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: vern on November 18, 2017, 07:33:56 AM
Never heard of Lumo in the eastern states? Have been around for years here, you need to get out more

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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on November 18, 2017, 08:20:15 AM
Quote from: DrewXT
You have to ride Lumo to get their billing right.\
this is supposed to be a professional company... Its like its run by 12 year olds. We just got another bill for 1000 which apparently "is a system error"... sick of dealing with them...
if they cant get it right, **** em.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on November 18, 2017, 08:56:30 AM
Never heard of Lumo in the eastern states? Have been around for years here, you need to get out more

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Where's here ?
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: vern on November 18, 2017, 09:30:04 AM
Where's here ?
East coast. Vic and nsw

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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on November 18, 2017, 12:01:36 PM
East coast. Vic and nsw

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I'm at central coast.....lumo has never been offered as a supplier when doing comparison quotes.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: vern on November 18, 2017, 12:17:55 PM
I'm at central coast.....lumo has never been offered as a supplier when doing comparison quotes.
Central coast isn't exactly the whole east coast. When i lived in vic i was sending paperwork to lumo weekly when in the solar game.  And now on the nsw mid north coast, i see lumo are part of the snowy hydro limited group, but of recent years are now under the red energy banner. So they have been available on the east coast for years, they are just under a different banner now in NSW.

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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: prodigyrf on November 24, 2017, 11:06:09 PM
That's exactly what happened when the powers that be decided to sell off OUR assets !! A company with shareholders needs to show a continued expansion in profit margins, something the government didn't have to do. Sure, the government could have run the assets a lot better, but it was easier for them to take a quick buck and sell them.

It's a mixed bag really so you have to distil out the truth. In SA's case the State Bank debacle meant selling power assets was a no-brainer but you'll notice most States followed the leader. Why so? Well like water, sewer and gas provision much of our public utility infrastructure was built in the post war period by my parents generation (1920s baby boomers) going without an awful lot of what we enjoyed living off the fruits of their sweat and bloating the public sector in the 70s and 80s. State Govts lived off the dividends of those utilities in the process and failed to put away for their depreciation until the penny dropped a lot of it was wearing out (try the burst water mains in Adelaide) so it was politically easiest to flog them off and let private enterprise be the messenger with bad tidings to shoot. They also know full time public servants with their wages and conditions nowadays would be even worse and hence the rash of privatisations (ie a Labor Govt in SA is privatising the LTO as we speak)

OK so lots of catching up to do with investment in tired and failing infrastructure but in the case of power generation they sunk our dough and debt into saving the planet with these unreliables leaving aging thermal generators to pick up the insurance tab and cross subsidise them. As if their aging infrastructure wasn't bad enough that was the coup de grace as we're seeing them close and being blown up. Just one problem. We now have the highest power prices in the world and we haven't coughed up for the other half of the Green equation. Storage and despatchability and as the man said in that ABC link to all the boofheads and their computer simulations-
"The question isn't really a case of can you do it; it's a question of what cost," says Dr Platt.
You said it doc and we aint seen nothing yet with those power prices.

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: prodigyrf on November 24, 2017, 11:39:03 PM
Here's Australia's wind energy output for November- http://anero.id/energy/wind-energy/2017/November (http://anero.id/energy/wind-energy/2017/November)
Now the sector averages around 30% of installed capacity over the year so imagine without thermal despatchable power what sort of pumped hydro, batteries, molten salt or pushing heavily laden trains uphill you'll need to smooth that lot out? Then there's particularly low wind months like we had in June to try and balance out-
http://anero.id/energy/wind-energy/2017/june (http://anero.id/energy/wind-energy/2017/june)

What I find so staggering is how so many supposedly intelligent people could go on believing for so long that they could disprove a fundamental axiom of engineering, namely that you can build a reliable system from unreliable componentry. If your first year apprentice mechanic hadn't got that fundamental law through his thick head by second year you'd have to sack him for the sake of your customers and if car makers dished it up we'd all be screaming for lemon laws.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on November 25, 2017, 06:56:44 AM
Here's Australia's wind energy output for November- http://anero.id/energy/wind-energy/2017/November (http://anero.id/energy/wind-energy/2017/November)

What I find so staggering is how so many supposedly intelligent people could go on believing for so long that they could disprove a fundamental axiom of engineering, namely that you can build a reliable system from unreliable componentry. If your first year apprentice mechanic hadn't got that fundamental law through his thick head by second year you'd have to sack him for the sake of your customers and if car makers dished it up we'd all be screaming for lemon laws.


I keep banging on about base load, but the greenies will argue till the cows come home that renewables can fix that. Maybe in 20yrs time, but for now, we still need coal.
Ask any renewable advocate if they would be happy paying twice or three times the amount for their elect bill ? Their reply is renewables are just as cheap to build, which MAY be correct, but someone still has to outlay the money, and get a return on it. And it still doesn't answer the problem........base load !!
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: prodigyrf on November 25, 2017, 08:19:10 AM
Well the penny's beginning to drop if you read between the lines as SA with all the windmills wanting to dump on the national grid and ACT living off the taxpayer in fairyland are now on the outer-
https://www.msn.com/en-au/money/company-news/no-resolution-on-energy-after-coag-meeting-but-government-remains-confident-in-national-energy-guarantee/ar-BBFyWid (https://www.msn.com/en-au/money/company-news/no-resolution-on-energy-after-coag-meeting-but-government-remains-confident-in-national-energy-guarantee/ar-BBFyWid)
When the SA Govt facing blackouts with peak summer aircon demand rushed out taxpayer funded diesel gennys and a 'look over there it's a unicorn' Tesla battery you knew the game was up for these unreliables. With Port augusta and Hazelwood gone and Melbourne heat waves highly correlated with Adelaides within 24 hours, if push came to shove with the need for power restrictions and aircon bans, the Andrews Govt wouldn't be remotely interested in bailing out the Weatherill Govt via the interconnector. It's every State polly for themselves boyoh.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Garfish on November 25, 2017, 08:02:21 PM
Oh I get it now! (smacks forehead). Some of you thought you deserved to only pay the cheapest cost of producing electricity and leave the rest of us to pay for the dearer cost stuff  :'(
I'm taking the first bid block at negative price levels for all my usage.  But then they would rebid. 😇

Imagine if customers paid in 5 min interval prices.   

Will be interesting to see the outcome of the Qld election and how the outcome drives electricity prices.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: prodigyrf on November 29, 2017, 11:03:49 PM
Imagine if customers paid in 5 min interval prices.   


Well interestingly enough when we do that in metro areas with our response to fuel prices on the hoardings at servos we drive a cyclical supply price when we treat fuel supply as an indistinguishable mass like electricity. In that respect the fuel suppliers get an average return even if you as an adroit individual consumer with lots of jerry cans can beat that average price. (actually that ability is lost the moment a regulator requires fuel retailers to advertise their price 24hrs ahead like Perth and the cycle disappears to the average in the middle)

So it is with electricity where retailers on our behalf have to average out their supply cost from all those generator bids and charge us accordingly and to do that they often have to play the futures game with big bucks and risk for which consumers inevitably have to pay. It doesn't make their task any easier with so many dispersed and varied generators, rather than the few traditional large thumpers and why public servants with no incentive to get it right could easily create another State Bank disaster in that environment. The bozos did after all believe they could disprove that fundamental axiom with these unreliables remember and now we're using refined fossil fuels to cover their asses  :'(
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on November 30, 2017, 06:47:50 AM
I keep banging on about base load, but the greenies will argue till the cows come home that renewables can fix that. Maybe in 20yrs time, but for now, we still need coal.
Ask any renewable advocate if they would be happy paying twice or three times the amount for their elect bill ? Their reply is renewables are just as cheap to build, which MAY be correct, but someone still has to outlay the money, and get a return on it. And it still doesn't answer the problem........base load !!

BASE LOAD

Last week, leading lights of the global fossil power industry gathered at a conference in Houston, Texas, for CERA, known in the sector as the “Davos of Energy”. They reportedly got the shock of their professional careers.

They had invited the most senior executives from the biggest network owner (Chine State Grid Corp) in the biggest energy market in the world (China). The organisers fully expected their Chinese guest to endorse the “all of the above” marketing pitch, which is underpinning the “keep coal” campaign.

No such luck. Despite prodding by leading oil industry commentator Daniel Yergin, the chairman of State Grid Liu Zhenya reportedly said the “fundamental solution was to accelerate clean energy, with the aim of replacing coal and oil.”

Gasp number one. And then to more stunned silence, he and State Grid’s R&D chief Huang Han dismissed coal’s claim to be an indispensable source of “base load” generation.

As the network operator builds out its clean power sources, they noted, coal-fired generators could only serve as “reserve power” to supplement renewables.

“The only hurdle to overcome is ‘mindset’,” Liu said. “There’s no technical challenge at all.”

The “base load” mindset, though, is a pretty big and powerful hurdle. Across the world it infests incumbent utilities, the coal and nuclear lobbies, conservative politicians, energy regulators, and many in mainstream media, who are clinging to the concept of “base load generation” as the last resort to try to ridicule wind, solar and other technologies.

In Australia, which has more coal generation as a percentage of its energy supply than any other developed country, this perpetuation of this idea has reached fever pitch, particularly with the imminent exit of the large coal-fired power station in South Australia.

But according to Tim Buckley, from the Institute of Energy Economics and Financial Analysis, the idea of “base load” generation as an essential part of the energy mix is becoming redundant, and turning into a myth dreamed up by the fossil fuel industry to protect its interests.

“It’s as dangerous as the marketing term of “clean coal” and the idea that coal is “good for humanity”,” Buckley says.

New data bears this out. In China, thermal power plant utilisation rates (capacity factors) declined from 56.2 per cent on average in 2014 to a record low of just 50.9 per cent in 2015.

“This highlights coal is not ‘base load’, even in China,” Buckley says. “It is the marginal source of supply. Coal-fired power plants aren’t designed to run only half the time, but that is what is happening in China, and increasingly that is occurring in India as well.”

Indeed, CLP, the Hong Kong-based owner of the Yallourn and Mt Piper coal-fired power stations in Australia, revealed this week that its “flagship” Jhajjar coal plant in India ran at a capacity factor of just 49.9 per cent in 2015.

In Australia, it was even worse. The 1,400MW Mt Piper power station near Lithgow in NSW operated at just 45 per cent of its capacity, even after its neighbouring Wallerawang coal plant had been shut down.

Other black coal generators have been similarly afflicted, so much so that the Northern power station in South Australia is to shut permanently in May.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: prodigyrf on November 30, 2017, 09:56:42 AM
“The only hurdle to overcome is ‘mindset’,” Liu said. “There’s no technical challenge at all.”

He's absolutely right just as we could grow tomatoes on top of Ayers Rock with water flown in from Antarctic icebergs as technically feasible but there's that wee issue of allocation of resources and economics that immediately becomes obvious in such an example. At present many Australian households could go off the grid completely with enough solar panels and Tesla2 batteries or even their own gas fired or diesel fired generators but they don't for the obvious, even though that can stack up for remote households facing high user pays grid connection costs.

While Australia is retiring and blowing up old coal power plants like similar developed countries it's not swaying Asians one bit-
http://www.energy-daily.com/reports/China_backs_hundreds_of_global_coal_power_projects_report_999.html (http://www.energy-daily.com/reports/China_backs_hundreds_of_global_coal_power_projects_report_999.html)
https://energytransition.org/2016/04/global-coal-power-capacity-keeps-going-up-utilisation-goes-down/ (https://energytransition.org/2016/04/global-coal-power-capacity-keeps-going-up-utilisation-goes-down/)

Lots of things are technically feasible and we can go back to the future with renewables like the Green ancestors but at what cost-
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/11/26/the-big-slide-in-renewable-energy-tells-the-real-story/ (https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/11/26/the-big-slide-in-renewable-energy-tells-the-real-story/)

They chopped down a lot of forests and hunted some whale species to near extinction for their renewable fuels remember.






 
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: alnjan on November 30, 2017, 12:25:34 PM
Just logic would dictate you have the renewables up and running before you go about demolition and blowing up the old ones first.  Horses don't push carts.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on November 30, 2017, 01:39:06 PM
Quote from: alnjan
Just logic would dictate you have the renewables up and running before you go about demolition and blowing up the old ones first.  Horses don't push carts.
This is what blows my mind.. We cant go without.
They wanna kill off what we have now for a few votes, and have nothing tested, running smoothly, covering out output needs... imagine if they shut off all internet before rolling out the NBN version 12085b
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on November 30, 2017, 07:36:10 PM
BASE LOAD



But according to Tim Buckley, from the Institute of Energy Economics and Financial Analysis, the idea of “base load” generation as an essential part of the energy mix is becoming redundant, and turning into a myth dreamed up by the fossil fuel industry to protect its interests.


I won't quote all the article you put up, but, what it didn't mention is what replaces coal as base load power ?? Not in 10 yrs time, but now ??
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: prodigyrf on December 01, 2017, 12:41:19 AM
So much for relying on lithium batteries as saviour as the cathodes need cobalt and you'll soon need to choose between your portable electronics or EVs and Tesla Big Batteries at present-
https://dailykanban.com/2017/10/success-evs-threatened-cobalt-crisis-china/ (https://dailykanban.com/2017/10/success-evs-threatened-cobalt-crisis-china/)

By the way if like most you came to believe in catastrophic anthropogenic global warming/climate change/extreme weather/ocean acidification/the sky is falling from sundry taxeating doomsdayers and scientifically illiterate media types, you might be interested in examining the real scientific evidence from this scientist written for the layperson to comprehend-
http://www.mirrorsandmazes.com.au/ (http://www.mirrorsandmazes.com.au/)
However if you believe science is like democracy and a popularity contest then forget it and stick with political seance and believing electricity grids run on e-motion.


Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on December 04, 2017, 12:38:29 PM
I know prodgyrf (along with one side of Australian politics and one man that owns almost every regional newspaper in this country) says all renewables are complete bulls**t.

It seams now Toyota agrees with this sentiment.... ;)
 https://futurism.com/toyota-power-plant-clean-energy-manure/ (https://futurism.com/toyota-power-plant-clean-energy-manure/)




Will I guess in the bright side, if we keep on pumping out pollution at the current rate, that boring as hell summer game might finally come to an end... :P

 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/03/pollution-stops-play-at-delhi-test-match-as-bowlers-struggle-to-breathe (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/03/pollution-stops-play-at-delhi-test-match-as-bowlers-struggle-to-breathe)

So how fast can we get that big Adani hole in the ground???
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Fizzie on December 05, 2017, 09:59:40 AM
So how fast can we get that big Adani hole in the ground???

Latest I'm reading is that it may still not happen :D, as no-one, including China, is apparently willing to come up with the $ required to get in off the underground :D
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on December 05, 2017, 10:35:42 AM
Latest I'm reading is that it may still not happen :D, as no-one, including China, is apparently willing to come up with the $ required to get in off the underground :D
Haha, yeah I had that news story lined up to post too...

But I’ve been getting attacked a bit on here lately, so just thought I’d only give a little poke with this one... ;)
Hopefully I put enough smiley faces to show that I’m only having fun..... ???
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on December 06, 2017, 07:01:28 PM
;)

 http://www.theage.com.au/business/energy/australia-s-first-offshore-wind-farm-international-funding-20171205-p4yxfb.html (http://www.theage.com.au/business/energy/australia-s-first-offshore-wind-farm-international-funding-20171205-p4yxfb.html)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: prodigyrf on December 26, 2017, 10:47:07 PM
I know prodgyrf (along with one side of Australian politics and one man that owns almost every regional newspaper in this country) says all renewables are complete bulls**t.


No you can make it reliable with storage to grab those peaks and iron out the troughs and at present that's battery, pumped hydro or molten salt technology bearing in mind the problem with wind (and solar we know as campers)-
http://anero.id/energy/wind-energy/2017/December (http://anero.id/energy/wind-energy/2017/December)
Just that we now have the highest power prices in the world and we haven't invested in that storage yet and nobody is telling you that while our thermal power stations are wearing out and being closed one by one. Well I guess you could say the SA Govt has responded to the crisis with a Tesla big battery as a token show of storage while rolling out diesel generators that will consume 80,000L/hour of refined fossil fuels. Something does not compute if we're to go 100% renewables by whenever the poor can manage it.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: prodigyrf on December 26, 2017, 11:32:32 PM
;)

 [url=http://www.theage.com.au/business/energy/australia-s-first-offshore-wind-farm-international-funding-20171205-p4yxfb.html]http://www.theage.com.au/business/energy/australia-s-first-offshore-wind-farm-international-funding-20171205-p4yxfb.html (http://www.theage.com.au/business/energy/australia-s-first-offshore-wind-farm-international-funding-20171205-p4yxfb.html)[/URL]


Offshore wind you say? Reading between the lines-
'Mr Evans declined to say how much CIP had invested in the project but described it as ''long-term serious investment for the life of the project''.
“We are very satisfied with this partnership, and look forward to contributing our competence and experience in cooperation with Offshore Energy, all levels of government and key stakeholders in the development of the first offshore wind project in Australia.”'

More snouts in the taxpayer trough no doubt even though offshore wind is a lot more expensive than onshore wind and solar at present but well you know how it is with Gummint/consumer subsidies.

As for the Bass Straight Wave Swell testing been there, seen that done that-
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-17/oceanlinx-generator-stranded-as-court-proceedings-continue/8529602 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-17/oceanlinx-generator-stranded-as-court-proceedings-continue/8529602)
but no doubt like geothermal feasibility subsidies to the likes of Tim Flannery's Geodynamics now in administration it's all about subsidy mining again. It's the new rivers of Green.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: prodigyrf on December 28, 2017, 05:08:30 PM
Take a leaf out of the SA Gummint's book and here's an offer you can't refuse  :cup:
https://www.mygenerator.com.au/cromtech-portable-generator-money-back-guarantee (https://www.mygenerator.com.au/cromtech-portable-generator-money-back-guarantee)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: GeoffA on December 28, 2017, 06:52:51 PM
When/how did every home having lots of batteries become a green alternative?
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Cruiser 105Tvan on December 28, 2017, 07:03:51 PM
Take a leaf out of the SA Gummint's book and here's an offer you can't refuse  :cup:
https://www.mygenerator.com.au/cromtech-portable-generator-money-back-guarantee (https://www.mygenerator.com.au/cromtech-portable-generator-money-back-guarantee)

How do you get rid of all those heavy and exotic metals when the batteries fail?
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: prodigyrf on December 28, 2017, 11:27:15 PM
Well the unreliables fans have to come up with something soon as it's getting more unmanageable and costly-
http://www.wattclarity.com.au/2017/12/still-a-long-way-to-go-before-wind-forecasting-models-are-as-good-as-they-will-need-to-be-as-installed-capacity-grows/ (http://www.wattclarity.com.au/2017/12/still-a-long-way-to-go-before-wind-forecasting-models-are-as-good-as-they-will-need-to-be-as-installed-capacity-grows/)
SA is the driest State in the driest continent and we don't have any serious upwellings of land to pump salt water uphill into. What about you lot along the Great Dividing Range? Got some nice high valleys these Greens can scope out for some pumped salt water dams presumably, unless you've got some fresh water to spare of course?
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pottsy on December 30, 2017, 03:30:07 PM
It's pretty ironic on the day the SA gov opens it's new Tesla battery bank for reliable power, Jamestown just up the road loses power!
People fail to recognise you can have as much battery power or available power as you like but if the transmission lines fail your still in the dark, the local publican in Jamestowm has spent a considerable sum of money on his own diesel generator as have many major businesses and supermarkets in SA.
SA number plates should read "Last one out turn the lights off"
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: prodigyrf on January 19, 2018, 02:49:50 PM
Well we're running short of reliable power at peak demand times and it's going to get a whole lot dearer as your retailer won't be able to absorb those wholesale costs at $14/KWhr-
http://joannenova.com.au/ (http://joannenova.com.au/)
I suppose if you keep shutting down industry temporarily and install diesel gennys it can paper over the cracks for a while but at what price?
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on January 19, 2018, 03:14:38 PM
Wondered why we have had power flickers today...

http://www.theage.com.au/business/the-economy/loy-yang-b-failure-sends-prices-soaring-triggers-supply-safeguards-20180119-p4yymr.html (http://www.theage.com.au/business/the-economy/loy-yang-b-failure-sends-prices-soaring-triggers-supply-safeguards-20180119-p4yymr.html)

+
South Australia stealing our power ...
https://www.aemo.com.au/Electricity/National-Electricity-Market-NEM/Data-dashboard#nem-dispatch-overview (https://www.aemo.com.au/Electricity/National-Electricity-Market-NEM/Data-dashboard#nem-dispatch-overview)
Market Notice 60847
AEMO ELECTRICITY MARKET NOTICE

Actual Lack Of Reserve Level 1 (LOR1) in the VIC Region - 19/01/2018

An Actual LOR1 condition has been declared for the VIC Region from 1320 hrs.
The Actual LOR1 condition is forecast to exist until 1800 hrs

The contingency capacity reserve required is 1120 MW

The minimum reserve available is 32 MW

Manager NEM Real Time Operations
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: hainess on January 19, 2018, 08:33:06 PM
http://joannenova.com.au/ (http://joannenova.com.au/)
Right now SA — the leading international star of renewable energy — is getting 350MW from Victoria, which is in turn, getting 700 MW from NSW and Tasmania. Queensland is sending 1,000 MW to keep the rest of the grid alive. Look at those prices! Tasmania, through some miracle of government run markets, is paying people to take electricity during these highest peak, most valuable hours of the year, when every other generator is about to earn millions.

Go figure?
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on January 20, 2018, 09:52:19 AM
http://joannenova.com.au/ (http://joannenova.com.au/)
Right now SA — the leading international star of renewable energy — is getting 350MW from Victoria, which is in turn, getting 700 MW from NSW and Tasmania. Queensland is sending 1,000 MW to keep the rest of the grid alive. Look at those prices! Tasmania, through some miracle of government run markets, is paying people to take electricity during these highest peak, most valuable hours of the year, when every other generator is about to earn millions.

Go figure?

Bwwhahahah, that’s classic...
We often hear about these types of publications, never thought I’d be lucky enough to read one. Thanks for the link, that made my morning.... ;D

By some miracle of Tasmania’s non reliance of fossil fuels they manage to make electricity cheaply. What a shock aye....

(http://www.smh.com.au/cqstatic/12z7v7/2001Tassie_Hydro_map_729.jpg)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on January 20, 2018, 11:01:19 AM
Bwwhahahah, that’s classic...
We often hear about these types of publications, never thought I’d be lucky enough to read one. Thanks for the link, that made my morning.... ;D

By some miracle of Tasmania’s non reliance of fossil fuels they manage to make electricity cheaply. What a shock aye....

(http://www.smh.com.au/cqstatic/12z7v7/2001Tassie_Hydro_map_729.jpg)


Looks like the vast majority of their generating capacity is Hydro which can be dispatched on demand as opposed to solar and wind which are predominantly the renewables being bought online on the mainland, not really comparable IMHO
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: austastar on January 20, 2018, 02:34:32 PM
Hmmm!
             They missed my place, 5kW solar, and we put out more than we use.
Cheers

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Garfish on January 20, 2018, 07:02:49 PM
So last week the tesla battery was charging at prices of -$1000 now it could be selling it back at $14000.  Sweet profits of $15000/ mwh if they didn't have to discharge in between


https://www.indy100.com/article/tesla-massive-battery-paid-charge-itself-australia-elon-musk-south-australia-hornsdale-8161726 (https://www.indy100.com/article/tesla-massive-battery-paid-charge-itself-australia-elon-musk-south-australia-hornsdale-8161726)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: briann532 on January 23, 2018, 04:33:13 PM
We have just returned from 30 days in Forster camping in the caravan off the grid.
(Not entirely though - we still had our internet dongle!!!)

We survived very well for over a month with a family of four using only 2 x 100 ah battery and a solar panel.
We used gas for the fridge, weber, bbq and hot water system. I went through just under 2 bottles of gas at $14.99 a refill at the local servo.
Using this equation - 2 x 12 = 24 bottles a year at $15 ea = $360 in gas. Free electricity.

Now we did watch a bit of tv, charge laptops, phones, ipads and torches etc. We also ran the Waeco beer / wine fridge the wholetime as well.
So you can do it if you really want to , but the problem is how many people "want to"
It's nice to turn on the AC after a hot day.

Off grid can be done and "recycling" of lead acid batteries is incredibly effective and leads to minimal environmental damage and waste. (Can't say the same for the smartphones and laptops though)

If you really want to stick it to the power companies then just do it. Go off grid.
Design weather effective housing features, utilise insulation, become more aware of power usage and go gas for everything else.

Watch the price of everyone else's power go up to pay for their loss of your money...........Now that's another story!!! >:D

Brian
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on January 23, 2018, 06:42:01 PM
Where at Forster did you "free" camp ??
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: MadMarv on January 23, 2018, 07:53:11 PM
I might be wrong here but my thoughts on costs going up are more to do with the financial bottom line .... technology has improved all electrical appliances/lighing etc over the years so we now actually use less power per person than we did say 30 years ago but business still need to make a figure to make a profit so the price per say watt must go up ... so we are using much less power but paying more ...... wel thats how i see it ...
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Cruiser 105Tvan on January 23, 2018, 08:03:03 PM
Agree Marv.
The higher the cost, the more the Gov. gets in GST etc., so why would they discourage it.
Just the price of Fuel is another good example of the price gouging we have to put up with.
But this thread is about Gas and electricity.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Moya on January 23, 2018, 08:13:56 PM
I might be wrong here but my thoughts on costs going up are more to do with the financial bottom line .... technology has improved all electrical appliances/lighing etc over the years so we now actually use less power per person than we did say 30 years ago but business still need to make a figure to make a profit so the price per say watt must go up ... so we are using much less power but paying more ...... wel thats how i see it ...

Yes less per person but there are a Shit load more people so it adds up!
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Paddler Ed on January 23, 2018, 09:22:56 PM
Power companies have a limit to the amount they can increase charges... BUT that is related to what they spend in infrastructure investment (hence the expression gold plated poles and wires), therefore they will relatively needlessly spend money on power transmission infrastructure whilst cutting jobs (increases in wages don't translate into price increases under the AER rules) as that allows them to make more money... Have a read up on Rate of Return in a monopoly environment; the AER has got some rules on it:
https://www.aer.gov.au/system/files/AER%20Better%20Regulation%20factsheet%20-%20rate%20of%20return%20guideline%20-%20December%202013.pdf (https://www.aer.gov.au/system/files/AER%20Better%20Regulation%20factsheet%20-%20rate%20of%20return%20guideline%20-%20December%202013.pdf)

The criticisms are fairly well known, this is an older piece, but from a reputable source (Cambridge University in the UK) https://www.repository.cam.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/1810/344/EP19.pdf?sequence=1 (https://www.repository.cam.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/1810/344/EP19.pdf?sequence=1)
"We refer to strategic behaviour or gaming as type of behaviour that aim to increase profits without achieving real efficiency gains, i.e. they defy the incentive purpose of benchmarking, the regulatory objectives of efficient operation, and protection of public interest."

Basically what the power companies are often doing...
"Averch and Johnson (1962) showed that ROR regulation encourages utilities to inflate their regulatory asset base through over-investment and socially inefficient resource allocation." Averch and Johnson IS pretty much the difinitive work on this.

In the process of finding that, I found some other interesting pieces via Google Scholar:
http://markdiesendorf.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/diesendorf-simulations-2011-1.pdf (http://markdiesendorf.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/diesendorf-simulations-2011-1.pdf)


TL,DR:
Power companies will invest so that it allows them to increase prices, even if the investment isn't needed. Investment though isn't in people on the ground.
"The periodic rate reviews in price cap regulation provide the regulated firm with an incentive to build-up or inflate their regulatory asset or cost base (RAB and RCB) prior to a rate review. In general, by building up the regulatory cost-base of the reference year through creating or accumulating costs, the firm can achieve a net gain by increasing its allowed revenues for the subsequent rate period." (Jamasab, Nillesen and Pollitt, 2003)


(all references above found via scholar.google.com.au, and none are University/subscription access only)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Fizzie on January 24, 2018, 08:15:43 AM
We have just returned from 30 days in Forster camping in the caravan off the grid.

I went through just under 2 bottles of gas at $14.99 a refill at the local servo.
Using this equation - 2 x 12 = 24 bottles a year at $15 ea = $360 in gas. Free electricity.

Hey Brian, you obviously had fun :D

Re gas - 2 x 9kg or 4.5kg ??? Guessing 4.5's if only $15 to fill ???

Our kitchen cooktop burnt out a little while back & the dead bit can't be replaced due to age & lack of spares, so we've been running off 2 butane stoves, quite well ;D

We're actually thinking of putting in a gas cooktop running off 9kg bottles, so good to hear how much you actually went through.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Fizzie on January 24, 2018, 08:17:54 AM
technology has improved all electrical appliances/lighing etc over the years so we now actually use less power per person than we did say 30 years ago but business still need to make a figure to make a profit so the price per say watt must go up ... so we are using much less power but paying more ...... wel thats how i see it ...

& that's why some people refer to it as the death spiral - price of power goes up so people use less; then the power company has to charge more to make the same, or higher, profit, so power bills go up; so people use less power ... :'(
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Fizzie on January 24, 2018, 08:20:10 AM
Power companies have a limit to the amount they can increase charges... BUT that is related to what they spend in infrastructure investment

Ed, I also believe that what they spend on advertising counts as "investment" so when they run glossy ad's tellng us what a wonderful job they're doing, we then pay for the cost of those ad's in next years electricity charges :'( >:(
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on January 31, 2018, 03:13:49 PM
"The surge will increase concerns among policymakers over energy and household budgets as Parliament gets ready to resume next week"

Are they serious, there isn't a politician in this country that's in touch with the average/below average wage earner...
as for being concerned, it looks good for the camera and front page..

http://www.theage.com.au/business/the-economy/electricity-prices-jump-12-per-cent-six-times-the-average-pay-rise-20180131-p4yz4k.html (http://www.theage.com.au/business/the-economy/electricity-prices-jump-12-per-cent-six-times-the-average-pay-rise-20180131-p4yz4k.html)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on February 02, 2018, 10:11:30 AM
How dumb would a local government be to think they can offset their whole power consumption with one of those unreliable solar farm thinga-me-jigs...??

Oh wait.... What's that you say...??

Quote
The Sunshine Coast Solar Farm is now live and feeding electricity into the power grid, making Sunshine Coast Council the first local government in Australia to offset 100% of its electricity consumption with energy from a renewable source.

Mayor Mark Jamieson said the 15 megawatt (MW) solar farm at Valdora allowed council to take control of its own electricity supply, combating rising electricity costs and achieving an important sustainability milestone.

“All power consumed at all of council’s facilities, including our administration buildings, aquatic centres, community and performance venues, as well as holiday parks, libraries, art galleries and sporting facilities, will be offset with energy from a renewable source thanks to this nation-leading project,” Mayor Jamieson said

https://www.sunshinecoast.qld.gov.au/Council/News-Centre/Sunshine%20Coast%20Solar%20Farm%20goes%20live%20in%20Australian%20first%20240717 (https://www.sunshinecoast.qld.gov.au/Council/News-Centre/Sunshine%20Coast%20Solar%20Farm%20goes%20live%20in%20Australian%20first%20240717)



Quote
“Since its commission in July last year, the Sunshine Coast Solar Farm has generated more than 12,000 megawatts and it will conservatively deliver $22 million in savings, after all costs, for our ratepayers over the next 30 years."

https://www.sunshinecoast.qld.gov.au/Council/News-Centre/Sunshine-Coast-joins-Australias-biggest-council-climate-partnership-290118 (https://www.sunshinecoast.qld.gov.au/Council/News-Centre/Sunshine-Coast-joins-Australias-biggest-council-climate-partnership-290118)


Quote
“Already, 40,000-plus Sunshine Coast households have rooftop solar and with our own solar farm now generating, this is equivalent to a 140MW renewable energy power station on the Sunshine Coast,” Cr Robinson said
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on February 02, 2018, 10:29:32 AM
How dumb would a local government be to think they can offset their whole power consumption with one of those unreliable solar farm thinga-me-jigs...??

Oh wait.... What's that you say...??

https://www.sunshinecoast.qld.gov.au/Council/News-Centre/Sunshine%20Coast%20Solar%20Farm%20goes%20live%20in%20Australian%20first%20240717 (https://www.sunshinecoast.qld.gov.au/Council/News-Centre/Sunshine%20Coast%20Solar%20Farm%20goes%20live%20in%20Australian%20first%20240717)



https://www.sunshinecoast.qld.gov.au/Council/News-Centre/Sunshine-Coast-joins-Australias-biggest-council-climate-partnership-290118 (https://www.sunshinecoast.qld.gov.au/Council/News-Centre/Sunshine-Coast-joins-Australias-biggest-council-climate-partnership-290118)

Let's face it though, The "offset" is only really possible because there is currently cheap dispatchable coal-generated power when the solar isn't working, yes they could add storage but then would likely turn their $22mil savings over 30years into a sizeable loss.
Not having a go at them for doing it, it seems like the environmentally and economically sound thing to do, but only really possible because of the cheap power available in the downtime.
If everyone went down the same path, the currently available cheap coal-fired power would have to be replaced with more Gas or similar generation (how many diesel generators does SA have now) with a quick response rate, This would then increase the power they have to buy in and again likely wipe out their 22mil savings.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on February 02, 2018, 11:21:40 AM
Let's face it though, The "offset" is only really possible because there is currently cheap dispatchable coal-generated power when the solar isn't working, yes they could add storage but then would likely turn their $22mil savings over 30years into a sizeable loss.
Not having a go at them for doing it, it seems like the environmentally and economically sound thing to do, but only really possible because of the cheap power available in the downtime.
If everyone went down the same path, the currently available cheap coal-fired power would have to be replaced with more Gas or similar generation (how many diesel generators does SA have now) with a quick response rate, This would then increase the power they have to buy in and again likely wipe out their 22mil savings.

Yes, true. But at least they've done it at the right scale.
We're lucky here to have that massive big flood plain to build this one on, not every council has that luxury, I know.
Obviously there will still be need to be a backup supply, a UPS if you will, but local generation will be a key part of the overall solution in the future.

The last quote is the one that tells the tale for me.
There's a bit over 130,000 houses in our region and almost 1/3 of them are generating their own electricity for 260 days per year on average.
With over 40,000 houses having solar and now with this large scale solar farm, that combines to generate 140MW just in our little community.

We're about to do an extension at home and when finished we plan to add solar with enough capacity to generate slightly more then we consume.
We'll be starting with a small battery bank that will be sized run our water and sewage pumps everyday and some extra for lighting and refrigeration in emergency situations.

Again, not something everyone can do, but it is the proactive approach that we are choosing to take towards this issue.
We could always choose to do nothing but rubbish any new ideas and then whinge about our bills I suppose.... ;)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Fizzie on February 02, 2018, 11:45:45 AM
we plan to add solar with enough capacity to generate slightly more then we consume.
We'll be starting with a small battery bank that will be sized run our water and sewage pumps everyday and some extra for lighting and refrigeration in emergency situations.

Good on ya Pete - make sure that you allow for expansion, panels, inverter & battery capacity down the track ;D
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on February 02, 2018, 12:10:50 PM
Again, not something everyone can do, but it is the proactive approach that we are choosing to take towards this issue.
We could always choose to do nothing but rubbish any new ideas and then whinge about our bills I suppose.... ;)

I like to think I sit somewhere in the sensible centre, not an advocate of new coal but also not an advocate of trying to go full renewables overnight. As I said, it seems to make sense for the council to do so, but that doesn't mean that it is a pathway everyone can/should go down as there is a tipping point somewhere where what makes it possible at the moment (A power grid with dispatchable power) becomes unviable and therefore solar (without storage) would also not be a viable option.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on February 02, 2018, 12:16:08 PM
Cheers Fizzie. :)

And Tryagain, I was not having a dig at you. I think all of your comments have been very much sensible centre and even keeled. ;)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on February 02, 2018, 12:47:36 PM
And Tryagain, I was not having a dig at you. I think all of your comments have been very much sensible centre and even keeled. ;)

I didn't take it personally, think I just get frustrated at both sides of the debate selectively spinning their arguments like it's purely a political argument to be won. Balanced and qualified is probably too long and boring to be newsworthy but it would be nice occasionally, would probably mean more effort would go into solving the issues as well instead of trying to win the arguments.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: briann532 on February 02, 2018, 04:42:41 PM
Where at Forster did you "free" camp ??

Hi Gronk,

It wasn't "Free" I can assure you. They took all but my kidneys, the bestards!!! Costs nearly 2500 for the month....... :'( :'( :'( :'(

Smugglers cove holiday village.
We are in the camping area down the back with the plebs. No power.....
Great views though and plenty of space.
We fit the 2 cars, 28 foot caravan, 26 foot tarp and the boat.
Not bad for a caravan park site I reckon.

Cheers
Brian
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on February 02, 2018, 07:01:08 PM
Hi Gronk,

It wasn't "Free" I can assure you. They took all but my kidneys, the bestards!!! Costs nearly 2500 for the month....... :'( :'( :'( :'(

Smugglers cove holiday village.
We are in the camping area down the back with the plebs. No power.....
Great views though and plenty of space.
We fit the 2 cars, 28 foot caravan, 26 foot tarp and the boat.
Not bad for a caravan park site I reckon.

Cheers
Brian

Holy cow....and for no power !!  I knew there was a reason I don't like van parks !!
Thought you may have been down the back at Lanis Island...
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Fizzie on February 04, 2018, 03:38:28 PM
There's a bit over 130,000 houses in our region and almost 1/3 of them are generating their own electricity for 260 days per year on average.
With over 40,000 houses having solar

Hey Pete - mentioned this bit during discussions in a similar thread on Whirlpool & one of the blokes was wondering if you have any idea of the ratio of rental homes to owner-occupied up your part of the world ???
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on February 04, 2018, 08:20:31 PM
Hey Pete - mentioned this bit during discussions in a similar thread on Whirlpool & one of the blokes was wondering if you have any idea of the ratio of rental homes to owner-occupied up your part of the world ???
Sorry mate didn’t dig that deep into it. Didn’t bother comparing units/apartments to houses either. 
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Fizzie on February 05, 2018, 07:26:45 AM
Not a prob, thanks, Pete!

BTW, put it up in the "Spotted" thread t'other day - did I spot you at Bunnings Burleigh Heads on the GC? Fluro lime-green Jeep with the same colour Seadoo jet-ski on the back! :D
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Nomad on February 05, 2018, 07:42:57 PM
Hey Pete - mentioned this bit during discussions in a similar thread on Whirlpool & one of the blokes was wondering if you have any idea of the ratio of rental homes to owner-occupied up your part of the world ???

Sorry to jump in.
Roughly 62% of freestanding homes on the Sunshine Coast are owner occuppied. This would be significanlty different to the number of units owner occuppied as there are a significant amount of holiday rental units in the region.

Of that 62% different areas are significantly higher or lower depending on their location and value.

Cheers
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Fizzie on February 06, 2018, 08:19:20 AM
Sorry to jump in.
Roughly 62% of freestanding homes on the Sunshine Coast are owner occuppied. This would be significanlty different to the number of units owner occuppied as there are a significant amount of holiday rental units in the region.

Of that 62% different areas are significantly higher or lower depending on their location and value.

Cheers

You're welcome, thanks Nomad!

Was actually thinking the other day that should ask you, being in real estate up there! :D

I'll pass it on.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: prodigyrf on February 21, 2018, 01:49:50 PM
Let's face it though, The "offset" is only really possible because there is currently cheap dispatchable coal-generated power when the solar isn't working, yes they could add storage but then would likely turn their $22mil savings over 30years into a sizeable loss.
Not having a go at them for doing it, it seems like the environmentally and economically sound thing to do, but only really possible because of the cheap power available in the downtime.
If everyone went down the same path, the currently available cheap coal-fired power would have to be replaced with more Gas or similar generation (how many diesel generators does SA have now) with a quick response rate, This would then increase the power they have to buy in and again likely wipe out their 22mil savings.


Pretty much and it's called the fallacy of composition (ie what's advantageous for the few doesn't work for the whole)-
http://joannenova.com.au/2018/02/electricity-prices-fell-for-forty-years-in-australia-then-renewables-came/ (http://joannenova.com.au/2018/02/electricity-prices-fell-for-forty-years-in-australia-then-renewables-came/)

PS: I see they're still scrabbling around with the feast or famine unreliables-
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/personalfinance/households-to-hand-over-control-of-backyard-pool-in-power-trial/ar-BBJmLRv (https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/personalfinance/households-to-hand-over-control-of-backyard-pool-in-power-trial/ar-BBJmLRv)
Watts a thousand bucks a pool when yer busy saving the planet eh? Plenty more where that came from  ;D
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Garfish on March 06, 2018, 05:20:34 AM
Interesting to see that indicators are for a reduction in prices for those in regional qld final prices are not released until end of May but every thing points to a reduction for gazetted prices.

  http://www.qca.org.au/getattachment/2c9ef12a-d053-4ce8-a7c7-9642b1cc3085/Fact-sheet-Forecast-residential-electricity-pric.aspx (http://www.qca.org.au/getattachment/2c9ef12a-d053-4ce8-a7c7-9642b1cc3085/Fact-sheet-Forecast-residential-electricity-pric.aspx)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on March 11, 2018, 08:50:54 AM
how is this not a criminal offence?

8000 down to 84?
Quote
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/from-8000-to-80-bar-owner-challenges-massive-agl-gas-bill-20180310-p4z3qm.html

"The $8000 showing on their system was as it was read. Then she looked at the service providers, actual people who were supposed to read the meter, and it turns out it wasn’t actually read."

Soon after Fairfax Media contacted AGL about the matter on Friday afternoon, Mr Thompson received a call from a representative and was told his bill for the quarter would be revised down to $84.

An AGL spokesman confirmed Mr Thompson would be issued a revised bill based on his own reading.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tomo on March 11, 2018, 12:22:06 PM
HI
at the end of the day someone/party has to make a balls to the wall  approach .
Construction needs to start NOW on A GAME CHANGING SYSTEM

A coal or nuclear station at least 1  or 2  have to be built .
At the same time  develop renewables on a large scale AND create a global ozzy  industry !!

Liberal not commited
Labour  just useless

Somebody needs to lead the country ..........but who ??
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Nomad on March 11, 2018, 08:03:46 PM
I know we are fundamentally different to Sweden with an availability of land and rich in natural resources, coal, but why aren't we adopting like they have and creating power stations that run off the burning of waste.

If we could burn all of those ****ing plastics that end up in our ocean wouldn't that be a win win situation?
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: MDS69 on March 11, 2018, 08:19:15 PM
I know we are fundamentally different to Sweden with an availability of land and rich in natural resources, coal, but why aren't we adopting like they have and creating power stations that run off the burning of waste.

If we could burn all of those ****ing plastics that end up in our ocean wouldn't that be a win win situation?

The Dial a Dump waste company is trying to get a facility of the ground at Eastern Creek in western Sydney but is having trouble with locals and government agencies.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on March 29, 2018, 11:15:43 AM
This is ****in obscene.. Blokes wife miscarried and all.. all over estimates of business in his area.. Nestle are over the road.. 200 staff.. This bloke is a carwash.

https://www.theage.com.au/business/consumer-affairs/they-say-we-owe-20-000-car-wash-owner-s-two-year-fight-with-agl-20180320-p4z59z.html (https://www.theage.com.au/business/consumer-affairs/they-say-we-owe-20-000-car-wash-owner-s-two-year-fight-with-agl-20180320-p4z59z.html)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on March 29, 2018, 03:53:56 PM
This is ****in obscene.. Blokes wife miscarried and all.. all over estimates of business in his area.. Nestle are over the road.. 200 staff.. This bloke is a carwash.

https://www.theage.com.au/business/consumer-affairs/they-say-we-owe-20-000-car-wash-owner-s-two-year-fight-with-agl-20180320-p4z59z.html (https://www.theage.com.au/business/consumer-affairs/they-say-we-owe-20-000-car-wash-owner-s-two-year-fight-with-agl-20180320-p4z59z.html)

And the bastards now want us to photograph the meter and send it in!!!  Where the f&*^ are their own meter readers?
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on March 29, 2018, 04:35:10 PM
And the bastards now want us to photograph the meter and send it in!!!  Where the f&*^ are their own meter readers?
They're sitting in their cars cruising past collecting data from the 'smart' meters.
The days of the meter reader walking the streets and getting chased out of yards by dogs are long gone my friend.

No modern meter?
Live with the power companies estimates of your consumption.
If you're not happy you can complain to the toothless tiger who will sympathize with your situation, but have no power to do anything about it, just like that guy's case....  :'(
Title: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on June 20, 2018, 05:29:45 PM
Could Australia finally be taking a big step in the right direction to be part of the future in power generation...??

Quote
The Northern Australian Infrastructure Facility (NAIF) is planning to provide $516 million for the Kidston solar project near Georgetown in far north Queensland.

Genex Power executive director Simon Kidston said the loan was a significant step for the company as it develops the project's second phase — a 250 megawatt pumped storage hydro project that's fully integrated with an expanded solar farm.


It will be one of the largest loans made by the NAIF.

Once built, the project will be the first in Australia to combine solar energy and pumped hydro storage.

"All of the energy from the solar farm is used to pump the water from a lower reservoir to a higher reservoir, then we can release that water and generate power at peak demand."

.....

Mr Kidston said once complete, the project will provide reliable energy to the country.

"Pumped storage hydro is the most efficient mature technology to store energy, and integrating this with solar and potentially wind over time, we can deliver the holy grail of renewable which is dispatchable reliable energy," he said.


Sounds great doesn’t it, pretty much a no brainer one would think.

But wait....
Apparently it all needs to signed off by the coal mining funded government first...

Quote
Federal Minister for Northern Australia Matt Canavan also welcomed the news, but was not as certain that the funding was guaranteed.

"The NAIF Board has not yet made an investment decision, nor has it given any commitment for financial assistance," he said.

Senator Canavan said the potential loan was a direct result of recent changes to the NAIF's investment mandate to make it more flexible, and several other projects were also being considered.


Oh well, let’s just stay in 1945 shall we....
Calling Mr Adani...

 http://abc.net.au/news/2018-06-20/solar-farm-integrate-pumped-hydro-storage-$500m-loan-aus-first/9890466?pfmredir=sm (http://abc.net.au/news/2018-06-20/solar-farm-integrate-pumped-hydro-storage-$500m-loan-aus-first/9890466?pfmredir=sm)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on June 20, 2018, 05:36:28 PM
Could Australia finally be taking a big step in the right direction to be part of the future in power generation...?
no
Title: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on June 21, 2018, 02:14:17 PM
Lowy Institute Poll shows Australians’ support for climate action at its highest level in a decade.

 https://theconversation.com/lowy-institute-poll-shows-australians-support-for-climate-action-at-its-highest-level-in-a-decade-98625 (https://theconversation.com/lowy-institute-poll-shows-australians-support-for-climate-action-at-its-highest-level-in-a-decade-98625)

And apart from the Tony Abbott/Allan Jones induced dip into stupidity a few years ago, most of Aus has been in agreement for quite some time.

(https://images.theconversation.com/files/224138/original/file-20180621-137738-4ek9cp.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=1000&fit=clip)

According to the Lowy poll, which involved a nationally representative sample of 1,200 adults, 84% of Australians support the statement that “the government should focus on renewables, even if this means we may need to invest more in infrastructure to make the system more reliable”.

(https://images.theconversation.com/files/224139/original/file-20180621-137746-18tpsi8.png?ixlib=rb-1.1.0&q=45&auto=format&w=1000&fit=clip)

“Both figures suggest that most Australians are genuinely concerned about climate change, a finding consistent with the ever-growing scientific consensus.

The big question is: will Australia’s political leaders respond to this support for climate action and energy transition by putting legitimate policy in place?

It’s political

Two key impediments present themselves here, both political.

The first is Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull’s own party. Most governments around the world that have instituted legitimate climate and energy policies have at some stage faced down their political opponents. But the biggest political opponents to Australian climate action are the government’s own internal pro-coal cabal, featuring former prime minister Tony Abbott and backbench energy committee chair Craig Kelly.

This group has fought their more moderate colleagues tooth and nail on climate and energy policy. In the process they have painted even relatively timid policies – such as the National Energy Guarantee – as extreme or fiscally irresponsible. Abbott even recently claimed he had been misled on whether the Paris targets he announced as a “definite commitment” – a 26-28% reduction of greenhouse gas emissions by 2030 relative to 2005 – were actual targets.

The second impediment to climate leadership is trepidation on the opposition benches after a bruising decade of climate policy wars. Previously, Kevin Rudd’s Labor had a field day with John Howard’s climate inaction in 2006-07, which coincided with the high point of public concern in Lowy polls.

But the party’s current leadership is all too aware that turning public concern into sustained public consensus is tricky. In the face of Abbott’s scare campaign on carbon pricing and an associated collapse in public support for climate action, Rudd infamously walked away from acting on the “greatest moral challenge”. When Rudd’s successor Julia Gillard finally legislated a carbon price, Abbott promised that the 2013 election, which he duly won, would be a “referendum on the carbon tax”.”



Edit;
A little more insight into the modern coal fired coalition and a bit of an explanation on some of those head scratching decisions they’ve made over recent years, for those that are interested in that sort of stuff...

 https://theconversation.com/the-pro-coal-monash-forum-may-do-little-but-blacken-the-name-of-a-revered-australian-94329 (https://theconversation.com/the-pro-coal-monash-forum-may-do-little-but-blacken-the-name-of-a-revered-australian-94329)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on June 21, 2018, 02:57:15 PM
Quote from: Pete79
Lowy Institute Poll shows Australians’ support for climate action at its highest level in a decade.

... until they release how much more it will cost families already struggling to pay bills and in some cases, cant afford it..
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on June 21, 2018, 03:19:12 PM
... until they release how much more it will cost families already struggling to pay bills and in some cases, cant afford it..

Interesting, I didn’t think they broadcast Allan Jones down your way.... ;D

Just came back from Europe traveling around with some Kiwis (NZ runs on over 80% renewables).
If Aussies got out from under that big lump of coal they’d see there’s heaps and heaps of countries living on majority renewables today.
Can’t say I noticed mass starvations when walking around in Norway (98% renewables) or Denmark (almost 60% renewables).
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: corndog on June 21, 2018, 03:52:36 PM
And if you think there are not people out there that are struggling to pay bills you should come out from under your solar panels.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on June 21, 2018, 07:08:38 PM
Not questioning that there are many people struggling to pay their power bills today.
It’s really sad that our political ‘leaders’ have let it go this far and still have no spine stand up to their donors and do something to fix it.
 
But there’s a massive difference between corporate greed encouraged by many many years of political lobbying and the need to replace ancient technology with modern alternatives.
The proposal in my earlier post is a perfect example, good technology but doesn’t suit the agenda of those that pay the bills so will probably never get approval.


And I’m sure that my great grand kids will be very happy that I’m here under my solar panels refusing to believe the coal funded politics going on in this country today..... ;)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: alnjan on June 21, 2018, 07:09:43 PM
A poll of 1200 people hardly is a suggestion that most Australians agree on anything. 
Title: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on June 21, 2018, 07:26:53 PM
A poll of 1200 people hardly is a suggestion that most Australians agree on anything.
Apparently it is....

Newspoll

Publisher: The Australian
Methodology: Online panel and robopolling, which does not include mobiles.
Sample size: About 1,600-1,800 for most surveys.
Frequency: Usually once a fortnight, but three-week breaks are not uncommon. Once a week during election campaigns.



Ipsos

Publisher: Fairfax Media
Methodology: Live phone polling, which includes mobiles.
Sample size: 1,400
Frequency: Monthly, but will appear more frequently during election campaigns.



Galaxy

Publisher: News Limited tabloids
Methodology: Online panel and live phone, including mobiles.
Sample size: 1,200 to 1,700.
Frequency: Infrequent outside election campaigns.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: GeoffA on June 21, 2018, 08:06:48 PM
Norway's 98% renewables are all hydro.....hardly applicable to the driest continent on earth.
NZ renewables are mostly hydro, with a good deal of geo-thermal....again, not really appropriate to AUS.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: alnjan on June 21, 2018, 08:44:58 PM
Apparently it is....

Newspoll

Publisher: The Australian
Methodology: Online panel and robopolling, which does not include mobiles.
Sample size: About 1,600-1,800 for most surveys.
Frequency: Usually once a fortnight, but three-week breaks are not uncommon. Once a week during election campaigns.



Ipsos

Publisher: Fairfax Media
Methodology: Live phone polling, which includes mobiles.
Sample size: 1,400
Frequency: Monthly, but will appear more frequently during election campaigns.



Galaxy

Publisher: News Limited tabloids
Methodology: Online panel and live phone, including mobiles.
Sample size: 1,200 to 1,700.
Frequency: Infrequent outside election campaigns.


I must just be one of the minority that disagree with the other 1199 occupants of Australia then  lol
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on June 21, 2018, 09:54:42 PM
Just came back from Europe traveling around with some Kiwis (NZ runs on over 80% renewables).
If Aussies got out from under that big lump of coal they’d see there’s heaps and heaps of countries living on majority renewables today.
Can’t say I noticed mass starvations when walking around in Norway (98% renewables) or Denmark (almost 60% renewables).

Norway and NZ renewables generation are largely consistent and dispatchable, with hydro being the predominant generation contributing 98% of supply in Norway and 60% in NZ, when was the last time you heard of those advocating for clean energy happy to build large-scale dam's to facilitate it?  (edit typed this bit before GeoffA posted but didn't get come back and finish off and post before he did)

At the end of the day if you want energy on demand you need supply on demand, unfortunately, our renewable mix doesn't yet facilitate that, but coal does.


Lowy Institute Poll shows Australians’ support for climate action at its highest level in a decade.

The big question is: will Australia’s political leaders respond to this support for climate action and energy transition by putting legitimate policy in place?

But the biggest political opponents to Australian climate action are the government’s own internal pro-coal cabal, featuring former prime minister Tony Abbott and backbench energy committee chair Craig Kelly.

He seems to be reading things into the research to support his point that isn't there, the research says that people support climate action, and in reality, renewables have been subsidised to the tune of billions. There is already quite a bit of action, whether it's at the right level is a different question but I saw a figure from a few years back that said that at that time, for every $1 subsidy coal gets, solar gets over $500 (might be a little inflated considering the source). The author though is taking the "support for climate action" means that people want the type of policy he is advocating for when the questions posed aren't even remotely close to what he is insinuating it means.

His "Pro coal cabal" sledge isn't really accurate either, earlier in the report he referred to the "technology neutral" stand that they take and that is more accurate, I don't think they especially have an affinity for coal, just the lower cost dispatchable power it provides. Whether them being neutral and not pro-renewable actually makes them pro-coal I guess depends on your viewpoint.


Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on June 21, 2018, 10:00:51 PM
A poll of 1200 people hardly is a suggestion that most Australians agree on anything.

1200 people is usually considered statistically accurate for Australias population size.


I must just be one of the minority that disagree with the other 1199 occupants of Australia then  lol

No, 708 of those want steps taken now to address it, you would be in the 492 who think either should act slowly so that it doesn't cause too big of an imposition or not at all.

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: OldPaj on June 21, 2018, 10:12:55 PM
But you ask 1200 people in the inner city green heartland (full of DINKs) and use push polling techniques to get the answer you want. Eg. Global warming is a serious and pressing problem. We must do something now even if it at a significant cost. Agree/Disagree (note invariably not on a scale of 1 - 10) nor in relation to other pressing problems Eg. rising health care costs, rising age care costs, rising education services cost etc. I guess most can see the picture.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on June 21, 2018, 10:36:56 PM
Norway and NZ renewables generation are largely consistent and dispatchable, with hydro being the predominant generation contributing 98% of supply in Norway and 60% in NZ, when was the last time you heard of those advocating for clean energy happy to build large-scale dam's to facilitate it? 

At the end of the day if you want energy on demand you need supply on demand, unfortunately, our renewable mix doesn't yet facilitate that, but coal does.

Not trying to be smart, genuine question here.
What’s stopping plans like the solar pumped hydro they want to build in NQ going ahead now?

We have a private company wanting to use otherwise useless sloping ground (ie; no good for residential, farming or mining) and using solar to pump water up hill and using gravity to run turbines downhill on demand.
It’s got to be as close to perpetual energy as we can get, isn’t it?

I agree we don’t have the steep ranges with constant running rivers or easy access to natural thermal like some others, but as a country we have no problems digging massive holes in the ground, we have plenty of sunshine and always manage to find plenty of water for industry when it suits.
Surely it’s only political agendas stopping us from making our own solar powered pumped hydro sites in remote areas all over the country.

You are correct that building dams in rivers and flooding large swaths of forests rattles a few cages.
But when it comes to growing citrus, cotton or rice we manage to pump a few liters of water around and make some decent sized puddles with little political fuss.


And I’m sorry, but I can’t agree that Tony “science is crap” Abbott has any other agenda then the one he makes very clear every time he speaks on the energy subject.
Shouting from the backbench about how ugly wind farms are and how the government should build their own coal fired power plants hardly says open minded to a proper mix of generation to me.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: GeoffA on June 21, 2018, 10:51:10 PM
Shouting from the backbench about how ugly wind farms are.....

....and he is 100% correct on that.

I used to quite like them, but I've grown to see them as visual pollution, a blight on the landscape.
They are not reliable enough, and don't generate enough to warrant the eyesore.....IMO.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on June 21, 2018, 10:53:52 PM
But you ask 1200 people in the inner city green heartland (full of DINKs) and use push polling techniques to get the answer you want. Eg. Global warming is a serious and pressing problem. We must do something now even if it at a significant cost. Agree/Disagree (note invariably not on a scale of 1 - 10) nor in relation to other pressing problems Eg. rising health care costs, rising age care costs, rising education services cost etc. I guess most can see the picture.

Yeah, some of the conclusions the Author draws aren't really there to be drawn. There could likely be a reasonable amount who are thinking the significant cost should be borne by the government/others, ask them if they are happy to bear the significant cost and I suspect the answer would change quite a bit, but if they have been consistently asking the same question with the same methodology, then the trend should be accurate. I think they would have a representative sample though, not just all a similar demographic.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: GeoffA on June 21, 2018, 10:59:52 PM
....
Surely it’s only political agendas stopping us from making our own solar powered pumped hydro sites in remote areas all over the country.
....

...and, it could also argued that it's only political agendas stopping us from having a reliable, affordable energy supply....

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on June 22, 2018, 12:34:56 AM
Not trying to be smart, genuine question here.
What’s stopping plans like the solar pumped hydro they want to build in NQ going ahead now?

We have a private company wanting to use otherwise useless sloping ground (ie; no good for residential, farming or mining) and using solar to pump water up hill and using gravity to run turbines downhill on demand.
It’s got to be as close to perpetual energy as we can get, isn’t it?
Nothing wrong with that one, it's an ideal site for pumped hydro which is why it looks like it will go ahead, but it's pretty unique.


I agree we don’t have the steep ranges with constant running rivers or easy access to natural thermal like some others, but as a country we have no problems digging massive holes in the ground, we have plenty of sunshine and always manage to find plenty of water for industry when it suits.
Surely it’s only political agendas stopping us from making our own solar powered pumped hydro sites in remote areas all over the country.

I don't think political agendas have that much to do with it, to the main issue is cost, keep in mind it's the Libs (with Tony's agreement) that have instigated Snowy 2.0. The Kidston project stacks up because the bulk of the earthworks have already been completed, if you have to do that from scratch then the cost is a whole lot higher. the other issue with pumped hydro is that the sites that would be ideal are also often area's of significant scenic value, you think people whinge about wind turbines being ugly, I think that it would be nothing compared to placing rammed earth turkey nest dams on the top of scenic mountain ranges. The other issue is proximity to the grid, there would possibly be remote sites that are suitable, but the cost of transmission then becomes the limiting factor.



And I’m sorry, but I can’t agree that Tony “science is crap” Abbott has any other agenda then the one he makes very clear every time he speaks on the energy subject.
Shouting from the backbench about how ugly wind farms are and how the government should build their own coal fired power plants hardly says open minded to a proper mix of generation to me.

I think that with Tony it's a partly a money thing, he hates that renewables have been subsidised to the extent they have, especially when he, at a minimum, thinks the potential effects have been significantly overblown by the proponents of renewable energy, I think he is also doing a good job of playing to his base but I also think that there is a big part of it that is that the people on the other side of the debate are the people who his naturally political enemy's, and he has always liked a good stoush.

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on June 22, 2018, 08:52:37 AM
Apparently it is....

Newspoll

Publisher: The Australian
Methodology: Online panel and robopolling, which does not include mobiles.
Sample size: About 1,600-1,800 for most surveys.
Frequency: Usually once a fortnight, but three-week breaks are not uncommon. Once a week during election campaigns.



Ipsos

Publisher: Fairfax Media
Methodology: Live phone polling, which includes mobiles.
Sample size: 1,400
Frequency: Monthly, but will appear more frequently during election campaigns.



Galaxy

Publisher: News Limited tabloids
Methodology: Online panel and live phone, including mobiles.
Sample size: 1,200 to 1,700.
Frequency: Infrequent outside election campaigns.
thats why the whole "highest level " is bullShit. **** thats not even a country town worth of people.

Come back with a poll of 3-4 million (which would be a reasonable amount going off the population clock 2017  (http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Web+Pages/Population+Clock?opendocument) if they want some form of credibility.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on June 22, 2018, 09:13:55 AM
thats why the whole "highest level " is bullShit. **** thats not even a country town worth of people.

Come back with a poll of 3-4 million (which would be a reasonable amount going off the population clock 2017  (http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Web+Pages/Population+Clock?opendocument) if they want some form of credibility.

I agree, but that is all of the polls that make all of the headlines at election time (and whenever the outcomes suit which ever parties argument at that point in time).

Pretty ridiculous isn’t it?
1,600 people can dictate a parties policy direction..... ???

I’ve often wondered how you got onto their polling register and how easy it would be to stack the numbers.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: JusyApples on June 22, 2018, 09:20:12 AM
Stop subsidies for renewables. Build a Shit load of coal fired power stations and I'd be happy.
I don't want to be like south Australia and constantly have black outs.

Climate change.... please, the climate has been changing long before we were around. It will continue to change with or without human activity.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on June 22, 2018, 09:40:35 AM
Quote from: Pete79
I agree, but that is all of the polls that make all of the headlines at election time (and whenever the outcomes suit which ever parties argument at that point in time).

Pretty ridiculous isn’t it?
1,600 people can dictate a parties policy direction..... ???

I’ve often wondered how you got onto their polling register and how easy it would be to stack the numbers.
I like it when they say the figures were "Seasonally Adjusted..." WTF?



Quote from: JusyApples
Stop subsidies for renewables. Build a Shit load of coal fired power stations and I'd be happy.
I don't want to be like south Australia and constantly have black outs.

Climate change.... please, the climate has been changing long before we were around. It will continue to change with or without human activity.
I'm with you. Or how about stop closing power stations until there is a better viable reliable cost effective solution... And no point doing it of majority of other countries are giving it the middle finger.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Fizzie on June 22, 2018, 09:52:49 AM
But you ask 1200 people in the inner city green heartland (full of DINKs) and use push polling techniques to get the answer you want. Eg. Global warming is a serious and pressing problem. We must do something now even if it at a significant cost. Agree/Disagree (note invariably not on a scale of 1 - 10) nor in relation to other pressing problems Eg. rising health care costs, rising age care costs, rising education services cost etc. I guess most can see the picture.

I do quite a few online surveys (& think I may have had input on this one a little while ago ???), & it's not like Sir Humphrey's method https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA)! :D

There's no "nice, young lady", only your computer keyboard, & nothing to stop you answering yes, yes, yes, yes, no if that's what you think.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Fizzie on June 22, 2018, 09:57:25 AM
Or how about stop closing power stations until there is a better viable reliable cost effective solution... And no point doing it of majority of other countries are giving it the middle finger.

The problem with that one is that it's the oversea's companies that own the power stations that are saying the $ don't add up anymore as the station is getting too old & need's to much maintenance so we'll shut it down >:(

They couldn't give 2 stuffs about whether Joe Blow Aussie has power or not, or how much it cost's him, they're only interested in the $ >:(

The electricity network should never have been sold off to private enterprise in the first place, & now it should be taken back.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on June 22, 2018, 10:20:04 AM
thats why the whole "highest level " is bullShit. **** thats not even a country town worth of people.

Come back with a poll of 3-4 million (which would be a reasonable amount going off the population clock 2017  (http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Web+Pages/Population+Clock?opendocument) if they want some form of credibility.


If they have been asking the same question for 10 years to a similar demographic then the trend is relevant, I think there are issues with the question they are asking, but basically, the trend is saying support for tackling climate change is back up around the same levels it was 10 years ago after a decline.

The only exact way to find out what everyone thinks is too ask everyone, however the sample size they use (assuming a representative sample) should give pretty accurate results, its not just done to a made up number, its a based on statistical probability to a set confidence level, not perfect but still pretty accurate.

I like it when they say the figures were "Seasonally Adjusted..." WTF?


That normally refers to things like retail figures, ie the first quarter for the year might see a big dip compared to the previous quarter that included Christmas, so they adjust the figures to compare  last year to give an accurate representation of what is happening
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on June 22, 2018, 10:32:37 AM
Quote from: tryagain
its a based on statistical probability to a set confidence level
Confidence level = 0.


Quote
That normally refers to things like retail figures, ie the first quarter for the year might see a big dip compared to the previous quarter that included Christmas, so they adjust the figures to compare  last year to give an accurate representation of what is happening
they use it for unemployment figures. EG: bullShit numbers to make it look better than it really is.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Poita on June 22, 2018, 01:45:48 PM
Stop subsidies for renewables. Build a Shit load of coal fired power stations and I'd be happy.
I don't want to be like south Australia and constantly have black outs.

Climate change.... please, the climate has been changing long before we were around. It will continue to change with or without human activity.

That's a very forward way of thinking... don't believe all the tin hat rubbish that the media feeds you.

The blackouts here had nothing to do with renewable energy. It was the feed from the eastern states which had the catastrophic failure and took down the entire grid. Coal, gas or renewable would have made no difference as the whole grid was down. Compounding was the fact we have an archaic grid set-up which couldn't cope with this sort of catastrophe.
Even if the grid was functional, the good old coal stations would have been no use as they take a solid 24hours to wind up. Natural gas is a little better at a few hours. Our new renewable storage takes 200ms to kick in.

Now that we have renewable energy we are a lot less reliant on the eastern feed.

But hey, lets build a heap more filthy coal stations, pump crazy amounts of pollution into the atmosphere because that works okish right now. If all humanity took that approach we'd still be living in caves and grunting. Sure climate change has been around since the dawn of time, but not to the exponential extent our society is contributing.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Poita on June 22, 2018, 01:56:38 PM
In Dec 2017 I put just over 6kW of solar on my roof and a 5kW inverter (max inverter size is now limited to 5kW due to our archaic grid limitations). My normal bill over the next quarter was around $600-$800. I got a $66 credit. This is combined with sensible power usage, so washing machine and dishwasher etc during the day. My first winter bill is coming up so I will be interested to compare given there was less solar insolation in the last 3 months.

It cost me about $6000 so shouldn't take long to pay off and saves me quite a bit. I did it now to ease the bills as we have school fees starting next year and the 3rd kid due in a couple months, so doubt I would have been able to afford it later.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on June 22, 2018, 02:24:38 PM
That's a very forward way of thinking... don't believe all the tin hat rubbish that the media feeds you.

The blackouts here had nothing to do with renewable energy. It was the feed from the eastern states which had the catastrophic failure and took down the entire grid. Coal, gas or renewable would have made no difference as the whole grid was down. Compounding was the fact we have an archaic grid set-up which couldn't cope with this sort of catastrophe.
Even if the grid was functional, the good old coal stations would have been no use as they take a solid 24hours to wind up. Natural gas is a little better at a few hours. Our new renewable storage takes 200ms to kick in.

Now that we have renewable energy we are a lot less reliant on the eastern feed.

But hey, lets build a heap more filthy coal stations, pump crazy amounts of pollution into the atmosphere because that works okish right now. If all humanity took that approach we'd still be living in caves and grunting. Sure climate change has been around since the dawn of time, but not to the exponential extent our society is contributing.

I am not pro new coal power plants and am happy with some level of subsidies for environmentally friendly power over not, but I think you have a little bit of a rosy view of the situation in SA, SA wouldn't have needed electricity from interstate if they had built dispatchable power generation, it's the fact that they build so much wind generation that can be a little erratic in the first place that meant they needed brown coal-fired back up from interstate.

If they had have built coal-fired power plants (not saying they should) there likely wouldn't have been the shortfall, to begin with, so the time to come online isn't really an issue with coal, only if you have erratic generation and whilst the wind and solar that can feed battery storage like they have built in SA are renewable, the lithium batteries that store it certainly aren't.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on June 22, 2018, 02:37:21 PM
Quote from: Poita
But hey, lets build a heap more filthy coal stations, pump crazy amounts of pollution into the atmosphere because that works okish right now.
actually works very well right now, has done for decades.

lets close down all the nasty coal powered stations and have.. umm... ****in nothing to replace it with which is Victoria at the moment and most states.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Paddler Ed on June 22, 2018, 03:14:10 PM
Simple solution....


Use less power


We run at under 5KW/h a day (so about a $1.20/day) for 2 of us - in fact, if we buy town water from the supply it's less again (but costs more than pumping from the tank).

Turning things off at the wall saved me 10%, we don't have a big TV, no aircon, and gas hot water.

Our biggest cost on the electricity bill is the supply charge...


It's not hard... if everyone saved that 10%, then it makes a difference...
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Poita on June 22, 2018, 03:19:13 PM
actually works very well right now, has done for decades.

lets close down all the nasty coal powered stations and have.. umm... ****in nothing to replace it with which is Victoria at the moment and most states.

Doesn't mean it's the right thing to do though. There is increasing amount of international pressure and regulation to produce cleaner energy. At least give SA credit that they are one of the few states to even attempt to do something about it rather than just hope some miracle solution pops up to solve the worlds problems. We led the way in recycling, paper bag reduction and now renewables. It has taken years but a lot of other states are slowly implementing the same things. Are they perfect solutions? No, not by a long shot, but they are a step forward and if we listened to all the doom and gloomers, nothing would ever be done.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: JusyApples on June 22, 2018, 07:23:20 PM
It wouldn't make a difference what SA are doing. Seriously there are hundreds of coal fired power stations being built around the world as we speak. Why are SA relying on eastern states? Technology changes, making coal power much cleaner as well as nuclear. We have so much uranium and coal which we send overseas for others to use. Why not use it ourselves.

You can rely on wind and solar for base load power.

You don't make friends with salad
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Mitch92 on June 22, 2018, 08:15:39 PM

The blackouts here had nothing to do with renewable energy. It was the feed from the eastern states which had the catastrophic failure and took down the entire grid. Coal, gas or renewable would have made no difference as the whole grid was down. Compounding was the fact we have an archaic grid set-up which couldn't cope with this sort of catastrophe.
Even if the grid was functional, the good old coal stations would have been no use as they take a solid 24hours to wind up. Natural gas is a little better at a few hours. Our new renewable storage takes 200ms to kick in.

Now that we have renewable energy we are a lot less reliant on the eastern feed.


You are so far wrong in your statements.

The last chance SA had at not going black was the interconnector from VIC. All of the renewables, gas and coal had already begun tripping off. The only reason the interconnector trippes was due to overload. The load draw from VIC into SA exceeded the capacity to the point it tripped open for it's own protection.

Synchronous generation is the most stable in these situations. Again the problem is that SA didn't have most of it running. Once wind etc started to fail there is more load placed onto what was running. They all have protection limits and they were reached, when reached they trip to stop other bigger issues.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Hewy54 on June 22, 2018, 08:39:04 PM
I wish I was sure of my facts, but much of the reference to SA I believe is incorrect.
The power outages a couple of years ago were caused by storm damage.
We live just north of Adelaide and have nor had a power outage for ages.
I believe that the recent changes to our power production and storage now mean that we export to the eastern states.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Mitch92 on June 22, 2018, 08:42:12 PM
The storm damage certainly did the most damage....hard to send power down lines that have fallen over etc.

However the fact remains that had there been more synchronous generation from coal power etc that the whole state would not have gone black.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Paddler Ed on June 22, 2018, 09:13:53 PM
I'd recommend having a look at this... and out of the 90 places that are listed, look at where the Australian states rank...

https://www.electricitymap.org/?page=map&solar=false&remote=true&wind=false (https://www.electricitymap.org/?page=map&solar=false&remote=true&wind=false)

Just had a look at places in a bit more detail... The UK recorded more Solar generation in the last 24hrs than NSW did... that's a worry...
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on June 23, 2018, 04:33:33 AM
I'd recommend having a look at this... and out of the 90 places that are listed, look at where the Australian states rank...

https://www.electricitymap.org/?page=map&solar=false&remote=true&wind=false (https://www.electricitymap.org/?page=map&solar=false&remote=true&wind=false)

Just had a look at places in a bit more detail... The UK recorded more Solar generation in the last 24hrs than NSW did... that's a worry...

I'd be pretty sure those figures wouldn't include rooftop PV, a quick look at some figures show the UK with 12.8GW of solar so about 0.2W per capita and Australia with 7.8GW so about 0.33W per capita, not sure about the UK but Australia's capacity is expected to almost double in 12months.

I think we look ok in comparison.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Rumpig on June 23, 2018, 07:11:59 AM
actually works very well right now, has done for decades.

lets close down all the nasty coal powered stations and have.. umm... ****in nothing to replace it with which is Victoria at the moment and most states.
reminds me of a t shirt my mate who is a mining engineer, had when he was at uni....the front read in big letters “BAN MINING”...the back read “Let the bastards freeze in the dark”.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: GeoffA on June 23, 2018, 07:16:37 AM
We are destroying our energy supply network for no gain, but at a huge expense to personal and corporate bottom lines.
If Aus were to cut it's emissions to zero, the effect on global warming would be as good as nil.
It's all just virtue signalling.....
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: duggie on June 23, 2018, 08:07:55 AM
reminds me of a t shirt my mate who is a mining engineer, had when he was at uni....the front read in big letters “BAN MINING”...the back read “Let the bastards freeze in the dark”.


Yep , I still got the stickers .  ;D
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: corndog on June 23, 2018, 10:06:54 AM
We are destroying our energy supply network for no gain, but at a huge expense to personal and corporate bottom lines.
If Aus were to cut it's emissions to zero, the effect on global warming would be as good as nil.
It's all just virtue signalling.....

Now that is a great comment. :cheers:
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pottsy on June 23, 2018, 10:44:37 AM
Now that is a great comment. :cheers:
X2
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Cruiser 105Tvan on June 23, 2018, 12:59:16 PM
Yep, Geoff's on the money.
Add me for lots more, Like Bird does.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Garfish on June 24, 2018, 03:27:07 PM
I wish I was sure of my facts, but much of the reference to SA I believe is incorrect.
The power outages a couple of years ago were caused by storm damage.
We live just north of Adelaide and have nor had a power outage for ages.
I believe that the recent changes to our power production and storage now mean that we export to the eastern states.

Based on aemo data SA is currently importing about 25% of its energy demand live map here. 
Vhttps://www.aemo.com.au/Electricity/National-Electricity-Market-NEM/Data-dashboard#nem-dispatch-overview
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on June 25, 2018, 11:20:39 AM
Based on aemo data SA is currently importing about 25% of its energy demand live map here. 
Vhttps://www.aemo.com.au/Electricity/National-Electricity-Market-NEM/Data-dashboard#nem-dispatch-overview

Fixed the link; https://www.aemo.com.au/Electricity/National-Electricity-Market-NEM/Data-dashboard#nem-dispatch-overview (https://www.aemo.com.au/Electricity/National-Electricity-Market-NEM/Data-dashboard#nem-dispatch-overview)

Very interesting to watch that site.

Currently (at 11am) QLD and Tasmania are producing more energy then we need, so QLD is selling it NSW and Tas is selling to VIC.
Then from what I can see NSW is selling to VIC, with the prices increasing as the power makes it's way down the food chain and at the very end of the line is poor old SA, getting shafted by every other state along the way with prices almost double that of QLD....

The damn renewables shafting consumers once again....  :angel:
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: corndog on June 25, 2018, 11:48:46 AM
I thought it was China that was selling us electricity.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Fizzie on June 26, 2018, 01:16:34 PM
Sort of - the Chinese own Energy Australia & Alinta Energy, as well as a few of the power stations & transmission networks :'(
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: paceman on June 26, 2018, 01:51:30 PM
The damn renewables shafting consumers once again....  :angel:

not so much the renewables, but the subsidies that taxpayers have to fund to get them off the ground and keep them viable...

and when i say viable, it's not like they provide anywhere near the capacity, reliability or wholesale cheapness of the power provided by coal.

it's the subsidies that hurt taxpayers...

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/state-politics/queensland-taxpayers-kept-in-dark-as-they-prop-up-solar-firms/news-story/04eefc1e8a2520c25e83d63306e9b896 (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/state-politics/queensland-taxpayers-kept-in-dark-as-they-prop-up-solar-firms/news-story/04eefc1e8a2520c25e83d63306e9b896)

(bold emphasis added by me)...

Quote
The Queensland government is concealing its financial support for large-scale renewable energy projects, guaranteeing subsidies to solar companies that do not ­appear on balance sheets.

With an expert panel previously finding the government would need to spend between $500 million and $900m in subsidies to meet its 50 per cent renewable energy target by 2030, there are now calls for spending to be made public.

The government has struck four deals with major solar-farm developers, under “contracts for difference”, with floor prices nominated for the sale of their ­energy in order to attract finance. When the market price falls below that threshold, the government has to make up the difference.


one commenter spells it out in plain english (date added by me for comment reference and context):

Quote
Yesterday (June 6, 2018) at 9 am Qld.. was generating 7,000 MW from fossil fuels/hydro and 80 MW from windmills and solar panels which is typical of Qld's power mix over the last couple of months. At the same time Qld has been exporting +/- 1,000 MW of excess power to Southern States to make up for power shortages caused by the closure of VICs. Hazelwood.

Two of Qld's "large scale" solar projects  — Genex’s Kidston and Canadian Solar’s Longreach solar farms, which have capacities of 50 megawatts and 15MW respectively — have begun feeding into the grid. These capacities are nameplate ratings only if they run 24/7/365, which of course they cannot, especially at night. The real ratings of these two baby power projects is more like 12.5 MW and 3.75 MW respectively which are definitely not large scale.

QLD has a long way to go to reach the 3,000 MW,  50% target of intermittent energy by 2030, but it will still need 3,000 MW of fossil fuel backup for when the wind and sun go missing. BTW the 3,000 MW represents energy produced not nameplate ratings which is a capacity factor of 25%.


if renewables are so good, why do they need subsidies to remain viable?

if renewable energy companies are so confident in their product, then fund and build without taxpayer-funded subsidies... go your hardest...

to be clear, i have no issue with renewables providing power (i really don't care where my power comes from), but i do have a problem with:

power prices going up for no good reason, when we have the ability and resources to provide cheap, plentiful and reliable power for hundreds of years at our disposal, today.
governments pushing for renewables, at the expense of people's costs of living, to try and mitigate something that has yet to be proven conclusively and something that we may have absolutely no control over (despite what the 'models' tell us), and
to be treated like some kind of a moron when i (or anyone else) suggest that we could have an orderly transition to renewable power, when the technology is ready.


common sense dictates that we could have a sensible, middle ground... 


Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on June 26, 2018, 02:39:20 PM
not so much the renewables, but the subsidies that taxpayers have to fund to get them off the ground and keep them viable...

and when i say viable, it's not like they provide anywhere near the capacity, reliability or wholesale cheapness of the power provided by coal.

it's the subsidies that hurt taxpayers...


Couldn't agree more..... Stop ALL of the subsidies...

The bold bit was added by me. ;)
Quote
At a time when the mining industry is earning record profits you might be surprised to learn that it is also receiving $4 billion worth of government subsidies and concessions each year. The Australia Institute provides a breakdown of the amount of support the industry receives, which includes cheap fuel and tax breaks.

The $4 billion includes:

$1,900 million in fuel subsidies
$550 million in reduced tax payments for the gas industry’s production of condensate
$368 million on tax write-offs for capital works
$330 million on deductions for exploration and prospecting
$312 million in accelerated depreciation write-offs.
Significantly, this is likely to be an underestimate as it does not include State subsidies (the Queensland Government alone is spending $1.4 billion each year in subsidies to the mining industry) or sweeteners like fringe benefits tax exemptions and benefits from publically-funded infrastrucuture projects.

With the resources boom in full swing it appears counterintuitive that the government is subsidising the mining industry. Government subsidies are often used as a way of supporting important industries at times when they are financially vulnerable. This is clearly not the case for the mining industry.

In turn, there does not seem to be any reason why these subsidies are in the national interest. With the mining industry so profitable these subsidies are not supporting the industry, but instead are simply increasing the size of their profits and placing greater pressure on other industries such as manufacturing, tourism and education.

Put simply, these subsidies represent a transfer of funds from taxpayers to the owners of mining companies operating in Australia, most of which are foreign-owned.

Or they're not really the subsidies we're worried about, are we??

Perhaps it's just the government subsidies that go towards energy production that we're concerned with....

Quote
The Division of Resources and Geoscience’s, Coal Innovation NSW (CINSW), was set up to advance low emissions coal technologies research and development across the state, with the aim of reducing greenhouse gas emissions associated with the mining and use of coal in industries such as electricity generation, steel and cement.

Low emissions coal technologies can play a vital role in reducing the state’s future greenhouse gas emissions and can contribute to the Commonwealth Government’s commitment to mitigate the effects of climate change under the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change Paris Agreement1. Advancements in the capture and storage of carbon dioxide (CO2) in NSW will also assist the NSW Government to meet its aspirational target of zero-net emissions by 20502.

Low emissions coal technologies can reduce the emissions from coal mining and coal-fired electricity generation,and contribute to ensuring the security and reliability of the state’s electricity network, and also provide businesses and households in NSW with access to affordable electricity.

CINSW:

provides strategic advice and makes recommendations to the Government about funding projects that encourage the development of low emissions coal technologies
provides advice on policy to encourage the development and implementation of low emissions coal technologies
makes recommendations about opportunities for private and public sector organisations concerning interstate, national and international research projects involving low emissions coal technologies
provides advice on other matters concerning low emissions coal technologies
undertakes these activities in accordance with the CINSW Code of Conduct.
CINSW is an advisory council established by the Coal Innovation Administration Act 2008 (the Act). Council representatives come from the coal and energy industries, research institutes and the NSW Government.

One of the key roles of CINSW is the ongoing provision of strategic advice to the Minister concerning the Coal Innovation NSW Fund (the Fund). This $100 million Fund was established under the Act and is a vital tool in reducing NSW's carbon dioxide emissions, now and into the future.

Apparently subsidies are handed out pretty freely, just depends which side of the fence you're on as to which ones get you more outraged..... ;D
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: paceman on June 26, 2018, 02:54:25 PM
Or they're not really the subsidies we're worried about, are we??

Apparently subsidies are handed out pretty freely, just depends which side of the fence you're on as to which ones get you more outraged..... ;D

https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/miners-pay-their-fair-share-of-tax-if-you-count-royalties-report-20180108-h0f0qh.html (https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/miners-pay-their-fair-share-of-tax-if-you-count-royalties-report-20180108-h0f0qh.html)

Quote
The Australian mining industry paid $185 billion in federal company tax and state and territory royalties between 2005-06 and 2015-16, according to a report produced by Deloitte Access Economics for the mining lobby.

i'd say receiving 14.5 billion (full 185, divided by 10 years, minus the 4 billion on subsidies), having spent 4 billion, is a pretty good return on investment... 

when renewables pay the same percentage (or any) royalties back to the government coffers, then we can compare apples with apples, regarding differences in subsidies...

high power prices for no reason, other than ideology and government interference get me outraged...

in the end, we can agree to disagree... just my thoughts on the subject...


Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on June 26, 2018, 02:56:01 PM
in the end, we can agree to disagree... just my thoughts on the subject...

 :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Fizzie on June 27, 2018, 01:01:26 PM
The bold bit was added by me. ;)

& this bold bit was added by me :D

"will also assist the NSW Government to meet its aspirational target of zero-net emissions by 20502"

Well, at least someone is finally discussing a realistic target date!  >:D
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: alnjan on June 27, 2018, 04:12:47 PM
and while speaking of target emissions, to help reduce the alleged green house gases attributed to Climate Change the target sights have been moved to the farming community and some dumb #@$% has decided we need to cull half the countries livestock.  I guess they want us to eat tofu with no dairy products. 
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on June 27, 2018, 05:04:44 PM
and while speaking of target emissions, to help reduce the alleged green house gases attributed to Climate Change the target sights have been moved to the farming community and some dumb #@$% has decided we need to cull half the countries livestock.  I guess they want us to eat tofu with no dairy products.

Apparently Kangaroo if fine to eat, beef not to so much so.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pottsy on June 27, 2018, 06:30:30 PM
and while speaking of target emissions, to help reduce the alleged green house gases attributed to Climate Change the target sights have been moved to the farming community and some dumb #@$% has decided we need to cull half the countries livestock.  I guess they want us to eat tofu with no dairy products.
I reckon let the livestock fart all they like, I like MEAT!
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: alnjan on June 27, 2018, 07:18:23 PM
I reckon let the livestock fart all they like, I like MEAT!

Yeah will make a BBQ pretty unappetising
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Poita on June 28, 2018, 09:54:18 PM
This thread has been making for some very interesting lunch time conversations at work, where we have several experts in power and renewables.

They did mention several aspects to consider:

No new tech is cheap, but if you can look beyond today, it is far more sustainable, cleaner and will end up being cheaper.

As for increased pricing, it has very little to do with the coal VS renewables debate. From the last reference, the rise is costs can be contributed to:
42% Network expansion. Needs forecasts were grossly over estimated, better (expensive) safety regulations and finally a pathetic business regulation model which encourages businesses to build even if it's not required.
26% Retail (cost of billing and servicing the customer). This was due to deregulation.
17% Wholesale (cost of generation). Read the article, quite interesting.
16% Government environmental policies Not really a success, but still only about 6% of the end users bill. This is the part being debated in this thread, so you can see how little impact it really has had in the scheme of things. So people getting worked up over this are completely missing the bigger picture.


References:
https://reneweconomy.com.au/plunging-costs-make-solar-wind-and-battery-storage-cheaper-than-coal-83151/ (https://reneweconomy.com.au/plunging-costs-make-solar-wind-and-battery-storage-cheaper-than-coal-83151/)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/dominicdudley/2018/01/13/renewable-energy-cost-effective-fossil-fuels-2020/#399e9c6b4ff2 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/dominicdudley/2018/01/13/renewable-energy-cost-effective-fossil-fuels-2020/#399e9c6b4ff2)
https://theconversation.com/a-high-price-for-policy-failure-the-ten-year-story-of-spiralling-electricity-bills-89450 (https://theconversation.com/a-high-price-for-policy-failure-the-ten-year-story-of-spiralling-electricity-bills-89450)

And I think this graph helps if we can think long term:
(http://www.abc.net.au/cm/lb/8270078/data/predicted-change-in-power-prices-to-2050-data.jpg)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: GeoffA on June 28, 2018, 10:24:11 PM
This thread has been making for some very interesting lunch time conversations at work, where we have several experts in power and renewables.....in SA?....

They did mention several aspects to consider:
  • The Australian government has no choice, they MUST lower green house emissions.......says who? It's our country. There is always a choice..
  • The operating cost of renewable plants is cheaper than coal......but coal works when the sun don't shine, and the wind don't blow.
  • A large contributing factor to the rapid decline in installation costs of unreliables is the fact that governments were prepared to fund and install this infrastructure......with truck loads of taxpayer money

If renewables are such a good thing, why was power so much more reliable and affordable before they were foisted upon us?

If AUS cut it's emissions to ZERO, the effect on global warming would be as good as nil. WOFTAM

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Cruiser 105Tvan on June 28, 2018, 10:34:03 PM
This thread has been making for some very interesting lunch time conversations at work, where we have several experts in power and renewables.

They did mention several aspects to consider:
  • The Australian government has no choice, they MUST lower green house emissions. Installing new coal plants will only set this target backwards, so not an option. They are also extremely expensive to build and maintain (see point 3). They need to subsidise to encourage investment to meet this target.
  • Mining is heavily subsidised as well.
  • The operating cost of renewable plants is cheaper than coal when greater than 1000MW (cumulative) and far far cheaper once you hit about 4300MW and above.
  • A large contributing factor to the rapid decline in installation costs of renewables is the fact that governments were prepared to fund and install this infrastructure encouraging research in improved technology and manufacturing processes. I put a 6kW system in recently for less that what it cost my boss to install a 1.5kW a few years ago. It has saved me $1000 in 6 months, so I am very happy with that.

No new tech is cheap, but if you can look beyond today, it is far more sustainable, cleaner and will end up being cheaper.

As for increased pricing, it has very little to do with the coal VS renewables debate. From the last reference, the rise is costs can be contributed to:
42% Network expansion. Needs forecasts were grossly over estimated, better (expensive) safety regulations and finally a pathetic business regulation model which encourages businesses to build even if it's not required.
26% Retail (cost of billing and servicing the customer). This was due to deregulation.
17% Wholesale (cost of generation). Read the article, quite interesting.
16% Government environmental policies Not really a success, but still only about 6% of the end users bill. This is the part being debated in this thread, so you can see how little impact it really has had in the scheme of things. So people getting worked up over this are completely missing the bigger picture.


References:
https://reneweconomy.com.au/plunging-costs-make-solar-wind-and-battery-storage-cheaper-than-coal-83151/ (https://reneweconomy.com.au/plunging-costs-make-solar-wind-and-battery-storage-cheaper-than-coal-83151/)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/dominicdudley/2018/01/13/renewable-energy-cost-effective-fossil-fuels-2020/#399e9c6b4ff2 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/dominicdudley/2018/01/13/renewable-energy-cost-effective-fossil-fuels-2020/#399e9c6b4ff2)
https://theconversation.com/a-high-price-for-policy-failure-the-ten-year-story-of-spiralling-electricity-bills-89450 (https://theconversation.com/a-high-price-for-policy-failure-the-ten-year-story-of-spiralling-electricity-bills-89450)

And I think this graph helps if we can think long term:
(http://www.abc.net.au/cm/lb/8270078/data/predicted-change-in-power-prices-to-2050-data.jpg)


If renewables are such a good thing, why was power so much more reliable and affordable before they were foisted upon us?

If AUS cut it's emissions to ZERO, the effect on global warming would be as good as nil. WOFTAM

 :cheers:


Exactly, and why can't they do it without subsidies, if it's such a world saving bunch of ideas.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Poita on June 28, 2018, 10:50:50 PM
I was also accused of not knowing what I was talking about with SA's power failure.

The labour government has always been vocal against SA's move towards renewables, especially Turnbull. So it's no surprised that they immediately blamed renewables and the brown nosed media ran with that story. Of course all the tin hatters loved it and believed it as gospel.

Turnbull was also the twit that touted the "clean coal" mantra. To quote recent studies:
“This so-called ‘clean coal’ is no better than the average emissions intensity of the market, and insignificantly better than regular coal. It defies belief that we are even talking about building one (a new coal plant) in 2017,” [1]

Did it have anything to do with wind? Yes, it blew the interstate transmission line over in 3 places. There are two actually, but one was down being serviced. In May that year, SA closed it's last coal power station down, but even if this and the previous one were running it would not have made any difference. This is not the fault of the SA government, but rather a lack of redundancy in the national grid, which is recognised as being one of the most spread out electricity grids in the world. South Australia and North Queensland both are at risk being at extreme ends of the grid.

"Decentralised energy solutions such as solar with battery storage and micro-grids would likely increase the resilience and energy security of South Australia’s very stringy electricity network.... This is what New York has done. In the aftermath of Hurricane Sandy in 2012" [2]

The flow on blackout was not caused by renewable energy deficiencies, but some overly sensitive protection circuitry tripped after detecting six voltage dips on the grid over a two-minute period (as a result of the transmission line failures). This then increased the load on the Victorian interconnect which triggered its protection circuit taking this offline. SA has load-shedding protection to deal with this but the rate of change in frequency was so rapid it didn't work. So pretty much the whole system collapsed and SA was disconnected from the national grid. Changes have been made to these protection settings to ensure that this does not happen again given a similar number of dips.

So was it renewables?? No, not really. It was incorrectly programmed protection devices. Flame away tin-hatters.

[1] https://reneweconomy.com.au/coalitions-clean-coal-plan-revealed-idiotic-fantasy-12811/ (https://reneweconomy.com.au/coalitions-clean-coal-plan-revealed-idiotic-fantasy-12811/)
[2] https://theconversation.com/what-caused-south-australias-state-wide-blackout-66268 (https://theconversation.com/what-caused-south-australias-state-wide-blackout-66268)
[3] http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-28/wind-farm-settings-to-blame-for-sa-blackout-aemo-says/8389920 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-28/wind-farm-settings-to-blame-for-sa-blackout-aemo-says/8389920)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Poita on June 28, 2018, 10:59:10 PM
        The Australian government has no choice, they MUST lower green house emissions.......says who? It's our country. There is always a choice..
        The operating cost of renewable plants is cheaper than coal......but coal works when the sun don't shine, and the wind don't blow.
        A large contributing factor to the rapid decline in installation costs of unreliables is the fact that governments were prepared to fund and install this infrastructure......with truck loads of taxpayer money


If renewables are such a good thing, why was power so much more reliable and affordable before they were foisted upon us?

If AUS cut it's emissions to ZERO, the effect on global warming would be as good as nil. WOFTAM

 :cheers:

You serious?? Just because it's our country we don't have any obligation to minimise the damage we are doing to the environment for future generations? And it's not just our country it's international agreements signed by multiple countries who are all trying to work towards minimising the mess we are creating. That is a pretty damn short sighted view...

Recent studies show that wind and solar combined with modern storage could effectively supply the entire demands of Australia. At this stage it would be too expensive though. Wind and solar combined aren't anywhere near as unreliable as the nay-sayers would have us believe. For example, if demand in power increased suddenly, a coal plant takes about 24 hours to ramp up. No where near quick enough to meet the demand. Natural gas takes a couple hours. Renewable storage... 200 milliseconds. Which the battery storage plant in SA has already done several times, even feeding back into Victoria when they needed it.

Tax payers money is wasted on huge amounts of things that we might deem extravagant. If it helps forge a better and cleaner future and encourages development of technology that means we are less reliant on dirty energy and the ecological effect this has (mining) then I am happy to pay for it.

If you read my thread... renewables are not the cause of the price increase. And again, if you read my thread, our pathetic national grid is at far more fault.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Poita on June 28, 2018, 11:03:15 PM
Exactly, and why can't they do it without subsidies, if it's such a world saving bunch of ideas.

Simple economics, it's not rocket science. New tech is expensive. Military, government etc investing in new tech eventually drives the price down as it becomes more common and the tech improves and manufacturing processes are refined and cheaper. This same process has occurred many times. LED lights are one example. I remember when a globe was $30-$40. I picked one up on the weekend for $9.95 and it wasn't the cheapest one there.

(https://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2015/04/solar-price-installation-chart.jpg.860x0_q70_crop-scale.jpg)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on June 28, 2018, 11:46:38 PM
This thread has been making for some very interesting lunch time conversations at work, where we have several experts in power and renewables.


+1 for doing some research and looking into it, on the whole, I don't disagree with you, but there are some bit's that I think could do with being put into a better context.


They did mention several aspects to consider:
  • The Australian government has no choice, they MUST lower green house emissions. Installing new coal plants will only set this target backwards, so not an option. They are also extremely expensive to build and maintain (see point 3). They need to subsidise to encourage investment to meet this target.
  • Mining is heavily subsidised as well.
  • The operating cost of renewable plants is cheaper than coal when greater than 1000MW (cumulative) and far far cheaper once you hit about 4300MW and above.
  • A large contributing factor to the rapid decline in installation costs of renewables is the fact that governments were prepared to fund and install this infrastructure encouraging research in improved technology and manufacturing processes. I put a 6kW system in recently for less that what it cost my boss to install a 1.5kW a few years ago. It has saved me $1000 in 6 months, so I am very happy with that.


Australias is a sovereign nation, in reality, we could do what we wanted.
Yes, mining gets some subsidies, but I haven't seen anything that suggests that these aren't infinitely smaller than what renewables receive, and we are actually talking about electricity generation, not mining, and whilst they are somewhat linked, they aren't the same thing.
You really need to compare the LCOE not just running costs to accurately compare, and in reality, you also need to factor in back costs if it is intermittent.


As for increased pricing, it has very little to do with the coal VS renewables debate. From the last reference, the rise is costs can be contributed to:
42% Network expansion.


Everything I have read says that the network expansion spend as more renewables come online will need to increase significantly, so yes, whilst a lot of the "Gold Plating" at the time wasn't needed, it and more will be required as renewables increase. So some of that spend would likely have had to be done at a later at a later date under the renewables associated costs.

And I think this graph helps if we can think long term:
(http://www.abc.net.au/cm/lb/8270078/data/predicted-change-in-power-prices-to-2050-data.jpg)


I think anything looking that far into the future you need to take with a grain of salt, and as mentioned earlier you really need to factor in storage for renewables to be a like for like comparrison with coal.

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Poita on June 29, 2018, 12:34:33 AM
+1 for doing some research and looking into it, on the whole, I don't disagree with you, but there are some bit's that I think could do with being put into a better context.


Australias is a sovereign nation, in reality, we could do what we wanted. Agreed, but I'd rather live in a country that wanted to try to improve processes rather than bury it's head in the sand and leave it to future generations/governments to worry about.

Yes, mining gets some subsidies, but I haven't seen anything that suggests that these aren't infinitely smaller than what renewables receive, and we are actually talking about electricity generation, not mining, and whilst they are somewhat linked, they aren't the same thing. The subsidies for coal and gas generation is very hard to find. A lot of politics involved (they fund many politicians political campaigns) and very difficult to accurately calculate as they range from mining the source fuel all (you can't unlink them, without the mining the coal generation wouldn't occur) the way through to the dumping of waste at the end. There are also many direct and indirect costs which are not born by the generation company during the life of the plant, environmental being just one of them.

You really need to compare the LCOE not just running costs to accurately compare, and in reality, you also need to factor in back costs if it is intermittent. There are heaps of these graphs around. Working out what data is used is more difficult. But they all point to the same thing... as the cost manufacture, installation and maintenance of renewable stations are dropping, coal is very quickly becoming unattractive financially

Everything I have read says that the network expansion spend as more renewables come online will need to increase significantly, so yes, whilst a lot of the "Gold Plating" at the time wasn't needed, it and more will be required as renewables increase. So some of that spend would likely have had to be done at a later at a later date under the renewables associated costs. I agree, the archaic networks really need to be updated and that will cost a fortune. But that's not the cause of the current price rise which everyone is complaining about and blaming renewables for. This price hike is due to increasing grid capacity for existing tech which was not needed. They would have been far better off future proofing their tech rather than expanding capacity.

I think anything looking that far into the future you need to take with a grain of salt, and as mentioned earlier you really need to factor in storage for renewables to be a like for like comparrison with coal.
Yes and no. They have a large amount of data now to use for predictions. But future aside, we are pretty much at that crossover point now. Storage is also dropping really fast and the battery tech is also getting much better. Give it 5 or so years and battery storage will be quite affordable even for householders. I'm an electronics engineer (Electrical/Electronics, majoring in Electronics) and in my field I have seen many times really expensive tech plummet in price very quickly once it becomes established.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: GeoffA on June 29, 2018, 06:08:38 AM
Virtue signalling.....
What would be the impact on global warming if Australia cut its' emissions to ZERO?
Give me a number please.....
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: GeoffA on June 29, 2018, 06:18:26 AM
When did batteries become a green option?
Consider the raw materials, manufacture, and disposal.
They will be the next environmental disaster....
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on June 29, 2018, 08:49:28 AM
Quote from: GeoffA
Give me a number please.....
Nun I'd say
https://previews.123rf.com/images/hedgehog/hedgehog1509/hedgehog150900533/45377535-young-nun-in-religious-concept-eat-banana.jpg
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on June 29, 2018, 11:39:46 AM
The subsidies for coal and gas generation is very hard to find. A lot of politics involved (they fund many politicians political campaigns) and very difficult to accurately calculate as they range from mining the source fuel all (you can't unlink them, without the mining the coal generation wouldn't occur) the way through to the dumping of waste at the end. There are also many direct and indirect costs which are not born by the generation company during the life of the plant, environmental being just one of them.
They aren't really that hard to quantify, it's not like the government have secret accounts that they use to funnel billions the way of the mining companies, just about all advocates of renewables point to the cost of subsidies to mining as a whole and conflate that with the cost of mining for electricity generation, even then the "subsidies" they mention are generally things like the fuel tax credit which isn't mining specific, it applies to all business equally. The reason that they are "hard to find" is that they don't exist in the way many try to insinuate, what does exist is pretty easy to quantify, just pales into insignificance in comparison to renewables. Whether that cost is justified on environmental grounds etc is a different question.

There are heaps of these graphs around. Working out what data is used is more difficult. But they all point to the same thing... as the cost manufacture, installation and maintenance of renewable stations are dropping, coal is very quickly becoming unattractive financially

Renewables (both with and without storage) vs existing coal, existing coal is cheaper
Renewables vs new coal, renewables are probably cheaper.
Renewables with storage vs new coal, new coal is probably cheaper.

The cost of existing renewables and storage continue to fall so that will likely change as time goes by. So yes building new coal-fired power is becoming less financially viable, keeping existing coal-fired power plants online though is still the cheapest form of non-intermittent supply by a fair bit.

Yes and no. They have a large amount of data now to use for predictions. But future aside, we are pretty much at that crossover point now. Storage is also dropping really fast and the battery tech is also getting much better. Give it 5 or so years and battery storage will be quite affordable even for householders. I'm an electronics engineer (Electrical/Electronics, majoring in Electronics) and in my field I have seen many times really expensive tech plummet in price very quickly once it becomes established.

You only have to look at one of your linked articles to see that they got the predicted increase in electricity demand very wrong, even though it would have been based on a large amount of data. I am not saying it definitely will be wrong, just that the further out they are predicting the greater the uncertainty.

No doubt that it will continue to fall, especially due to government incentives for renewables and regulatory impositions for coal.
I think the underlying question is predominantly a "values" one, Advocates of renewables say we need to do our bit to reduce the environmental impact of climate change or the cost will be borne by future generations, detractors say it's virtue signaling that hurts those who can least afford it and that any changes that we make here in Australia will have negligible difference in the global context.


Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Cruiser 105Tvan on June 29, 2018, 01:25:54 PM
It's not just the Batteries that'll be a problem when they collapse later in their service life.
Have a look at the components in Solar panels, and how they do humans a World of good.
Just Like Uranium and Power plants.  How do you neutralize Uranium at the end of its useful life.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on June 29, 2018, 01:32:21 PM
It's not just the Batteries that'll be a problem when they collapse later in their service life.
Have a look at the components in Solar panels, and how they do humans a World of good.
Just Like Uranium and Power plants.  How do you neutralize Uranium at the end of its useful life.
8) 8) 8) Parrrrrrrrrrrrty!
(https://hipertextual.com/files/2014/09/Nuclear-Explosion-670x410.jpg)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Cruiser 105Tvan on June 29, 2018, 01:34:50 PM
8) 8) 8) Parrrrrrrrrrrrty!
(https://hipertextual.com/files/2014/09/Nuclear-Explosion-670x410.jpg)

That's how you spread it, and I'm sure there'll be someone who thinks it's a great idea.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on June 29, 2018, 02:17:25 PM
That's how you spread it, and I'm sure there'll be someone who thinks it's a great idea.
launch it into space.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Cruiser 105Tvan on June 29, 2018, 02:53:47 PM
I think it might be an idea for a rocket load to collide with the sun.
But that Uranium isn't light.  So getting it into a path that does it would be horrendously expensive.
But you never know what it could cause, if you did.

I still think that if you can't get rid of it safely, you shouldn't have used it in the first place.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on July 04, 2018, 10:52:41 PM
I got an email from my electricity supplier a little while ago saying my power bills are going down from this month, and apparently I’m not alone.

This news had me scratching my head for a while, apparently because of those evil renewables getting around destroying economies all around the world price reductions are physically impossible.

But I think I’m finally working out how this power stuff works....

When prices go up it’s the evil renewables fault.
When prices go down it’s because of good government policies.

Got it. ;)

Now I’ve just got to work out how after you sign a binding global agreement it somehow becomes and aspirational target when you’re no longer PM....
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: GeoffA on July 05, 2018, 06:06:31 AM
....how much will the price drop, and for how long?

It was always an aspirational target, but it somehow morphed.

How much would global warming drop if AUS were to reduce its emissions to zero?
Still waiting for a number on that one.....anyone?
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: D4D on July 05, 2018, 06:29:06 AM
How much would global warming drop if AUS were to reduce its emissions to zero?


All it takes is one big bushfire and that target is out the window.

On another note, received the first gas bill since the new central heater was installed. We've been able to drop the temp to 20 from 22, missus likes it warm, and we've left it on all winter, as per the installers suggestion. Bill has dropped 20% which I was happy with.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on July 05, 2018, 06:43:31 AM

All it takes is one big bushfire and that target is out the window.

On another note, received the first gas bill since the new central heater was installed. We've been able to drop the temp to 20 from 22, missus likes it warm, and we've left it on all winter, as per the installers suggestion. Bill has dropped 20% which I was happy with.

But if a few of you Mexicans moved north where you don't need heaters, how much would you save yourself and the environment  !!!  ;D
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: paceman on July 05, 2018, 07:11:41 AM
This news had me scratching my head for a while, apparently because of those evil renewables getting around destroying economies all around the world price reductions are physically impossible.

When prices go up it’s the evil renewables fault.

where in this conversation does anyone say that the renewables themselves are 'evil'?

anyone with half a brain would agree that renewables, as an idea and as a solution, are great, in a vacuum...

it's the other stuff hanging off renewables (subsidies, government interference, sanctimonious attitudes, etc) that people hate...

do i hate renewables? of course not.  i hate the other rubbish that comes along with it.

i, and probably everyone else, couldn't give a rats where my power comes from, as long as it is cheap, plentiful and reliable, which, currently, fossil fuels provide all three. 

renewables, at this point, are none of those things.  that's not to say they won't get there, but until they do, fossil fuels are a reality.

the stance taken by extremists, saying that we must turn off coal NOW, is dangerous and misguided.  we can get to where they want us to go, it will just take time.



Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on July 05, 2018, 07:40:13 AM
....how much will the price drop, and for how long?

4% this month.
Bit like asking when fuel prices will start dropping or when your housing values in Melbourne and Sydney will stop dropping... ;)



where in this conversation does anyone say that the renewables themselves are 'evil'?
Nope their clearly evil.
They’ve been causing mass starvation, shutting down whole states, bankrupting countries all over the world and stealing first born children from what I’ve been reading..... ;D

















* Sarcasm gets lost around here.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: paceman on July 12, 2018, 07:53:10 AM
this makes for very interesting reading...

https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/accc-releases-blueprint-to-reduce-electricity-prices (https://www.accc.gov.au/media-release/accc-releases-blueprint-to-reduce-electricity-prices)

a couple of interesting bits from the executive summary (emphasis mine):

Quote
Most state governments put in place excessively generous solar feed-in tariff schemes with a view to
encouraging consumers to install solar photovoltaic (PV) systems. Under these schemes, the subsidy
paid to consumers for the energy produced by their systems outweighed, by many multiples, the value
of that energy
. Take up of the schemes exceeded all expectations, in part due to dramatic declines
in solar PV installation costs. The substantial cost of the schemes continues to be spread across all
electricity users
.

Quote
Policies associated with the objective of reducing carbon emissions have been problematic. Australia
has committed, through international treaties, to reduce its carbon emissions. The electricity sector
has, understandably, been a key focus for these efforts given the historically carbon-intensive nature of
electricity generation. However, various policy failures here have hurt consumers.
As the Finkel review identified, there has been a failure to facilitate an orderly transition from
carbon-intensive generation technologies to cleaner ones
. This is highlighted by the relatively sudden
decisions by the owners of the Northern and Hazelwood power stations to close those plants. The short
notice of closure of these plants did not enable the market to respond to expected shortfalls in capacity
with adequate and timely investment.


executive summary link below:

https://www.accc.gov.au/system/files/Retail%20Electricity%20Pricing%20Inquiry%E2%80%94Final%20Report%20June%202018_Exec%20summary.pdf (https://www.accc.gov.au/system/files/Retail%20Electricity%20Pricing%20Inquiry%E2%80%94Final%20Report%20June%202018_Exec%20summary.pdf)

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on August 09, 2018, 02:09:40 PM
“Profit at AGL, Australia's largest electricity generator, have surged by 194% to $1.59 billion as power bills to consumers keep rising.

Underlying profit after tax was up 28% to $1.023 billion, in the upper half of AGL’s guidance range, reflecting strong earnings growth in Wholesale Markets.

CEO Andy Vesey says the result reflects the benefits of multibillion-dollar investments in electricity generation, meaning strong returns from higher wholesale electricity prices. “This increase in prices in the broader electricity market has mostly been a result of the abrupt closure of non-AGL power stations such as Hazelwood in 2017 and Northern in 2016 and higher input costs for coal and gas," he says.
“In this environment, we recognise that many Australian households are facing cost-of-living pressures because of the higher energy bills that have resulted from higher market prices.”


Yes you did read that right.
A power company’s profits are up 194%.

Poor guys, if only they’d raised their prices to consumers a touch more they could have cracked 200%. The CEO must be devastated with missing out on that bit of his bonus....
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on August 09, 2018, 02:40:21 PM
Quote from: Pete79
Poor guys, if only they’d raised their prices to consumers a touch more they could have cracked 200%. The CEO must be devastated with missing out on that bit of his bonus....
someones going to lose their job over this obvious oversight
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: corndog on August 09, 2018, 06:43:23 PM
I've been saying for a long time, Bugger the Royal Commission into the banks. It should be into the banks, petrol, insurance, power, telecommunications, the big business accounting firms, and scare the s**t out of the rest of them Royal Commission.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: briann532 on August 09, 2018, 07:50:22 PM
When did batteries become a green option?
Consider the raw materials, manufacture, and disposal.
They will be the next environmental disaster....

And we have a winner...……….  ;D ;D ;D

You would need to own your Prius for 800 years before it even came close to being carbon neutral compared to a hilux.

Don't believe me?
Yes I did the maths for a thesis I worked on.... :'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Paddler Ed on August 09, 2018, 08:01:42 PM
And we have a winner...……….  ;D ;D ;D

You would need to own your Prius for 800 years before it even came close to being carbon neutral compared to a hilux.

Don't believe me?
Yes I did the maths for a thesis I worked on.... :'( :'( :'(

I spoke with someone a few years ago at a conference on sustainability, and we were talking about vehicles; I raised that my old 4Runner whilst not great on headline fuel economy, it was at about 270,000km at the time, was averaging about 11/100km... the guy I was talking to had a Honda Civic hybrid that was dropping battery power at a much younger age as the battery pack was dying off - the result was his fuel economy was heading rapidly towards mine...

People wonder why I run my 26 year old 4Runner (petrol), 40 year old Land Cruiser (diesel) and 27 year old Yamaha XT600.... Yep, they're all well and truly on their way to being lower impact than a pious Prius... Great piece from CAR in the UK about this as well (https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/features/opinion/gavin-green/why-keeping-your-car-for-longer-is-environmentally-kinder/)...
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: glenm64 on August 09, 2018, 09:33:57 PM


And we have a winner...……….  ;D ;D ;D

You would need to own your Prius for 800 years before it even came close to being carbon neutral compared to a hilux.

Don't believe me?
Yes I did the maths for a thesis I worked on.... :'( :'( :'(

You telling me Mr Tesla is all smoke and mirrors?


Cheers Glen

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Cruiser 105Tvan on August 09, 2018, 10:44:29 PM

You telling me Mr Tesla is all smoke and mirrors?


Cheers Glen

They all focus on where the recharging electricity comes from, not where this rotting pile of sophistication is going to end up.
Of course Tesla is smoke and mirrors, So is Bill Gates and heap of others, including that Twitter junkie in the white house.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: corndog on August 10, 2018, 07:09:54 PM
Nearly $1.6 billion profit. We really are mugs.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on August 10, 2018, 08:06:35 PM
Nearly $1.6 billion profit. We really are mugs.
what real choice is there?? Remember - the politicians told us privatization will save us money. They wouldnt lie would they?
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Cruiser 105Tvan on August 10, 2018, 09:49:46 PM
what real choice is there?? Remember - the politicians told us privatization will save us money. They wouldnt lie would they?
Every one knows how to tell if a politician is lying don't they?
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: corndog on August 20, 2018, 10:30:40 AM
The remember when game.
I remember when gas was considered the cheaper way to heat the house, cook the dinner and heat your hot water.
Forget your electricity power bill, check out your gas bill.
Sure it's winter and we use more.
No one is saying anything about the price of gas, all the talk is about electricity. And a lot of it has just been talk.
We need the price of gas brought into the picture too.
A bill for 61 days and the price of $523 excluding GST.
$8.57 a day.
Maybe we'll  stay cold, eat sandwiches, and take a cold shower soon.
It wouldn't be so bad if I couldn't remember when..............
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: prodigyrf on August 22, 2018, 02:20:23 AM
Remember when?  ;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmEsDDX25VA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmEsDDX25VA)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: glenm64 on August 22, 2018, 06:47:55 AM
Now and see all the trouble you lot have started.
Terrible Tony's been monitoring this post and reckons you all want a change. He's talked Paramilitary Peter into treason, trying to usurp poor old Mindless Malcolm, to be king of this (once) wonderful kingdom.
Now i want you all to go home and write 50 lines.

I promise I wont complain about power prices anymore.......
I promise I wont complain about power prices anymore.......
I promise I wont complain about power prices anymore.......
I promise I wont complain about power prices anymore.......
I promise I wont complain about power prices anymore.......
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: corndog on August 22, 2018, 12:37:11 PM
I thought I had it bad. Mentioned my bill to a guy I car pool with. He said that 's nothing. Same period, over $800. At least he made me smile.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on August 22, 2018, 12:56:53 PM
its all ****ed up.


from a mate at home:
Quote
listening to a guy just on radio now telling his experience.

he called up asking about his bills going up - power up from 600 to 900 same period as last year
2 hours on hold ….

oh you have to call up every year to make sure you get your 30% discount
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: corndog on August 22, 2018, 01:08:55 PM
And they never notify you if a better plan comes out saving you money. But why would they. They couldn't milk you dry if they did.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Cruiser 105Tvan on August 22, 2018, 01:37:37 PM
And they never notify you if a better plan comes out saving you money. But why would they. They couldn't milk you dry if they did.
That's exactly right, and everybody else is always on a different rate to you.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on September 03, 2018, 07:14:16 AM
This has the potential as a real game changer..

https://theconversation.com/new-solar-cells-offer-you-the-chance-to-print-out-solar-panels-and-stick-them-on-your-roof-102335

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on September 03, 2018, 07:18:20 AM
Many of the coal supporters and nay-sayers about renewable energy probably wont agree....As far as I am concerned renewables, like electric cars and different power supplies/storage,  are here to stay, will function well and will help our planet survive a little longer.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-03/angus-taylor-energy-minister-power-price-solution-curious/10188496 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-03/angus-taylor-energy-minister-power-price-solution-curious/10188496)

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Rodt on September 03, 2018, 07:47:45 AM
It's all about affordable storage for me. Solar is just about useless for me as we are a working family that has most of its power usage at night or late afternoon. IMO forget all the subsidies based on feeding into the grid etc affordable power storage options would get me over the line. Will say I don't view a 3 - 4 years payback as affordable either.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: JusyApples on September 03, 2018, 09:06:12 AM
It's all about affordable storage for me. Solar is just about useless for me as we are a working family that has most of its power usage at night or late afternoon. IMO forget all the subsidies based on feeding into the grid etc affordable power storage options would get me over the line. Will say I don't view a 3 - 4 years payback as affordable either.
Solar is useless for me as well, 2 story house next door and a couple of trees in neighbouring yards means there's shadows over my roof most of the day.
Coal or nuclear is the only reliable way to go. The fact that renewables need subsidies tells me they are not effective
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: wada4wd on September 03, 2018, 10:05:47 AM
Solar is useless for me as well, 2 story house next door and a couple of trees in neighbouring yards means there's shadows over my roof most of the day.
Coal or nuclear is the only reliable way to go. The fact that renewables need subsidies tells me they are not effective


Yes, some houses can't install solar because of the shade etc, and renters can't often do it either. There are some options for them and should be more.

If power has never had subsidies then there would never have been reliable power. Coal has been a large subsidy. The difference is that actual persons has had their own subsidy with solar on their roof. The main issue for the country is that the government has not been moving forward for years and years and the original generation system is aged for coal stations.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-03/angus-taylor-energy-minister-power-price-solution-curious/10188496 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-03/angus-taylor-energy-minister-power-price-solution-curious/10188496)

Coal is now more expansive than other options including renewables like solar, wind and hydro.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on September 03, 2018, 10:16:04 AM
Ten years ago I was living in Arnhem Land and realised that one day I would have to get back into the real world. I bought a house in Cairns (investment with a view to occupy when I moved).  I wanted to move to Cairns after a while and eventually retire.  Thinking about this I wanted to retire with as few bills coming in as possible.  I was renting the house out at the time that I decided to install a 6 kw system. $12000 at the time.  Put it in my name and the people who rented the house got free power for several years.  44 cents rebate per kw .  I got in 2 weeks before the deadline. Paid for itself in 7 years after rebates and tax incentives.  Now I break about even as electricity price hikes are continuing and I also run a swimming pool pump all year.  Solar is continuing just to get cheaper as well as batteries.  I am locked in at 44 cents until 2028.  If I was to add a battery bank I would lose my subsidy.  All my neighbours have solar, with some having 10kw systems, but 5 kw is most that can be fed into grid for a tariff.  Solar has certainly been a bonus for me.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on September 03, 2018, 10:36:58 AM
Ten years ago I was living in Arnhem Land and realised that one day I would have to get back into the real world. I bought a house in Cairns (investment with a view to occupy when I moved).  I wanted to move to Cairns after a while and eventually retire.  Thinking about this I wanted to retire with as few bills coming in as possible.  I was renting the house out at the time that I decided to install a 6 kw system. $12000 at the time.  Put it in my name and the people who rented the house got free power for several years.  44 cents rebate per kw .  I got in 2 weeks before the deadline. Paid for itself in 7 years after rebates and tax incentives.  Now I break about even as electricity price hikes are continuing and I also run a swimming pool pump all year.  Solar is continuing just to get cheaper as well as batteries.  I am locked in at 44 cents until 2028.  If I was to add a battery bank I would lose my subsidy.  All my neighbours have solar, with some having 10kw systems, but 5 kw is most that can be fed into grid for a tariff.  Solar has certainly been a bonus for me.

And it's good for some......if you can afford the initial cost.

But, one factor with solar panels is quality and use by date. It took you 7 yrs to break even, but how many more yrs before you have to replace the panels ?
I like the idea of being completely self sufficient,  but the cost is still too far out there to be able to easily run a pool pump, pool solar pump, aircon etc.

I left it too late for installing solar (bugger all rebate now ) and can't afford  it now either, and at 60yrs old, not sure how many more yrs I have left at the present address, so solar is the last thing on my mind.

Electricity took 40 yrs to become widespread and reliable and so renewables may do the same, and may change in system designs and type of renewables, but in the meantime, reliable (and especially baseload ) energy means COAL. For how much longer ??? Who knows, but my guess is at least 10 plus years.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on September 03, 2018, 10:55:09 AM
Ten years ago I was living in Arnhem Land and realised that one day I would have to get back into the real world. I bought a house in Cairns (investment with a view to occupy when I moved).  I wanted to move to Cairns after a while and eventually retire.  Thinking about this I wanted to retire with as few bills coming in as possible.  I was renting the house out at the time that I decided to install a 6 kw system. $12000 at the time.  Put it in my name and the people who rented the house got free power for several years.  44 cents rebate per kw .  I got in 2 weeks before the deadline. Paid for itself in 7 years after rebates and tax incentives.  Now I break about even as electricity price hikes are continuing and I also run a swimming pool pump all year.  Solar is continuing just to get cheaper as well as batteries.  I am locked in at 44 cents until 2028.  If I was to add a battery bank I would lose my subsidy.  All my neighbours have solar, with some having 10kw systems, but 5 kw is most that can be fed into grid for a tariff.  Solar has certainly been a bonus for me.

Smart financial move, unfortunately for the rest of us, we fund the difference (about 39c/kW) that they pay you as opposed to what they would pay a wholesaler for the same amount of electricity through inflated electricity prices.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on September 03, 2018, 11:25:07 AM
Smart financial move, unfortunately for the rest of us, we fund the difference (about 39c/kW) that they pay you as opposed to what they would pay a wholesaler for the same amount of electricity through inflated electricity prices.

Yep..I was lucky that I used my brain to see a little into the future (for a change)...I think its called "growing up"..lol.   I was also fortunate to have a well paid job that saw me travel all over Australia in a company 4wd and visiting places many will never go. The same system now is around the $5000 mark..installed so prices certainly have been driven down. Solar panels will still get a lot cheaper and easier to manufacturer..see my link from 2nd last post...now they are printing solar panels from pc printers and doing it very cheaply. The technology will get better.  I know many cant afford solar at the moment but hopefully maybe in years ahead. The 44c per Kw is my way of regaining some the taxes I paid throughout my working life and for getting ripped off with 20% interest rates on my house loan 30+ years ago!!.  Many will remember this period. The state and federal governments have been an absolute joke when it comes to power.  Gas should have been in use 20 years ago rather than selling it all overseas.  Still say we are the laughiong stock of the world when it comes to handing our natural assets over.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on September 03, 2018, 11:54:08 AM
Interesting and scary.. overnight we may have 1000's of "solar experts" :(


Quote
Victoria’s $1.24 billion pledge to provide heavily discounted solar panels to thousands of households has drawn parallels with the former Rudd government’s failed home insulation scheme, amid fears it could attract dubious operators and lead to safety risks.

Responding to the Labor government’s pre-election announcement yesterday, opposition energy spokesman David Southwick called on Premier Daniel ­Andrews to explain how it would safeguard families “from being scammed by telemarketers and dodgy installers … that will flood the system under this scheme”.

“Daniel Andrews’s solar panel election promise sounds a lot like Kevin Rudd’s pink batts disaster,” Mr Southwick said, referring to federal Labor’s home insulation program that was scrapped in 2010 after four installation workers died.

“This is ‘Pink Batts mark 2’ — it failed the first time and it is at risk of failing again.”

While the government moved to allay such fears, claiming that the scheme would be overseen by an independent authority to ­ensure the highest safety standards, the push to have 650,000 owner-occupied households install solar panels comes after the Australian Competition & Consumer Commission recently called for solar rebates to be phased out by 2021.

Releasing a blueprint on July 11 to ­reduce electricity prices, the ACCC argued that government subsidies for household solar had been a well-intentioned but misguided policy. Solar schemes were too generous, unfairly disadvantaged lower-income households and had failed to adjust to the changing economics of household solar, it said.

Labor has predicted that its scheme, which will provide owner-occupiers with a 50 per cent rebate on the cost of installing a solar panel system and ­interest-free loans to repay the balance over four years, will bring the number of homes across the state with solar panels to one million within 10 years. It is open to households earning up to $180,000 a year and homes valued at less than $3 million.

In an unashamed play to voters’ cost-of-living concerns, Mr Andrews said the scheme would save a typical Victorian household up to $2225 on installation and $890 a year on electricity bills.

“We know the cost of living is going up and it’s getting harder to make ends meet,” the Premier said. “That’s why Labor is helping families with their energy bills.”

Mr Andrews also took a swipe at the federal government over the status of the national energy guarantee and ongoing infighting within the Coalition over power prices.

“I honestly can’t give an ­answer on whether we will or won’t support whatever they’re proposing in Canberra because it just keeps on changing,” he said.

“When we’ve got some detail, when we’ve got a final position agreed to by the commonwealth, we’ll look at it carefully.”

Mr Southwick described the state government’s announcement as a “thought bubble” that would do little to help Victorians who were struggling and could not afford to install solar panels.

“Victorians are the highest taxed in Australia and it’s being used to fund programs like this that have a track record of failure,” he said. “Daniel Andrews’s answer to his high power bills is to ask ­people to spend more money.”

The Australian Conservation Foundation welcomed the initia­tive. “The Victorian solar homes plan will be good for our climate, good for clean energy, and good for household power bills,” ACF climate change program manager Gavan McFadzean said.

“Driving more renewables into the system is the best way to cut climate pollution and electricity prices, while adding stability to the national grid.”

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/andrews-solar-panel-scheme-like-pink-batts-disaster-says-opposition/news-story/127b16191f6bf840bf425a3366e32a67 (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/andrews-solar-panel-scheme-like-pink-batts-disaster-says-opposition/news-story/127b16191f6bf840bf425a3366e32a67)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on September 03, 2018, 11:59:41 AM
Yep..I was lucky that I used my brain to see a little into the future (for a change)...I think its called "growing up"..lol.   I was also fortunate to have a well paid job that saw me travel all over Australia in a company 4wd and visiting places many will never go. The same system now is around the $5000 mark..installed so prices certainly have been driven down. Solar panels will still get a lot cheaper and easier to manufacturer..see my link from 2nd last post...now they are printing solar panels from pc printers and doing it very cheaply. The technology will get better.  I know many cant afford solar at the moment but hopefully maybe in years ahead. The 44c per Kw is my way of regaining some the taxes I paid throughout my working life and for getting ripped off with 20% interest rates on my house loan 30+ years ago!!.  Many will remember this period. The state and federal governments have been an absolute joke when it comes to power.  Gas should have been in use 20 years ago rather than selling it all overseas.  Still say we are the laughiong stock of the world when it comes to handing our natural assets over.

My issue is with the way the Gov of the day set it up, If it was tax dollars paying the subsidy then I wouldn't really have as much of an issue, but instead, they were "clever" and funded it through increased electricity prices (for everyone else), the result is effectively a poor tax, those who can't afford a solar setup (or renters) effectively subsidising those that can. This is from all the from the side of politics that is supposed to be for the "working class" too. Just to be clear I am not having a go at those who took advantage of it (the funding details aren't obvious), but those who set it up and the way they did it.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: wada4wd on September 03, 2018, 12:54:11 PM
In the last year or so, people interested and able are adding solar and battery.

Why would they do that? Because the governments have stuffed up the cost of electricity for the public. Selling off most of the power plants, failing to upgrade the system, paying high cost for poles and wires added to the public costs and then moved the retail system by adding extra costs so the retail suppliers make money. In SA, we used to get bills from ETSA but changed to a retail group making their own $$.

Over time, 5-10 years, it is cheaper to run your main power from the solar system. Not because it is cheap to add solar and battery, but because the governments have screwed up the system by failing to move forward. Lot of house owners just added the cost of solar to their house mortgage because it is cheaper than paying retail 100% electricity!

2011 we added 10kW solar to the roof on a stone house uses power to keep it reasonably comfort. Have done anything we can to reduce the energy for the place and we are neutral kW over a year including power the EV car. If we were doing it now, would do the same with battery storage, might do that anyway over time as the cost of batteries etc is cost dropping down over time.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on September 03, 2018, 12:55:39 PM
Quote from: tryagain
Just to be clear I am not having a go at those who took advantage of it (the funding details aren't obvious), but those who set it up and the way they did it.

one member on here filled house and shed with panels when it was originally done so gets max rebate..
he has free gas and electric and gets a chq too ;(
wish I'd had the $$$ at the time.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on September 03, 2018, 02:15:51 PM
I used to get a cheque once a year for about $800.  Now I get about $300...Still better than paying.  This was probably one of the smarter things I have done..
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on September 03, 2018, 02:27:30 PM
I used to get a cheque once a year for about $800.  Now I get about $300...Still better than paying. 
x eleventy willionteen.


Quote
This was probably one of the smarter things I have done..
hindsight :'(
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on September 03, 2018, 06:14:50 PM
Yep..I was lucky that I used my brain to see a little into the future (for a change)...

Fortunately there are still some decision makers that haven't got their heads completely buried in the sand and also consider the future when planning new projects.
I guess it helps when 40% of your constituents are thinking along the same lines and have invested in the future on their own homes...

Quote
The Sunshine Coast Solar Farm took out the top gong at the National Federation Awards last night in Canberra (August 23), winning the national award for Environmental Leadership and Sustainability.
Sunshine Coast Council competed against other state winners in the sustainability category after winning the Local Government Managers Association Sustainability Excellence Award in April.

Sunshine Coast Mayor Mark Jamieson said this was the fourth prestigious award the solar farm had won in the past 12 months and goes to prove the value of investing in this project on behalf of the region.
“To win the national award for environmental leadership and sustainability speaks to the very heart of what Sunshine Coast Council is all about and underpins our commitment to becoming Australia’s most sustainable region,” Mayor Jamieson said.
“This game changing project has delivered day after day since it was switched on in July last year, to a tune of $1.7 million so far.
“Every dollar we don’t spend on electricity is a dollar better used delivering the services and facilities our region needs.
“We are also about to hit 30,000 megawatt hours of generated energy with a resultant saving of almost 23,000 tonnes in carbon emissions – which is great news for our environment.”

Economic Development and Innovation Portfolio Councillor Stephen Robinson said the award recognised the achievements of individuals and teams working to achieve great things for their communities.

“The Solar Farm is certainly working for our community but it’s just one part of the clean energy puzzle, representing just 10% of the region’s current solar generation,” Cr Robinson said.
“Forty per cent of homes on the Sunshine Coast have already made the switch to rooftop solar and it’s our community which can make the most significant impact.
“That’s why, over the next six months, council will be providing information to help our community make informed renewable energy choices, starting with free renewable energy sessions at council libraries from August 28.
“We’ll also be working with independent renewable energy experts to provide information through social media and on our website to help our community learn about renewable energy options, rebates, energy saving and making the most out of their existing systems.”

The Sunshine Coast Solar Farm has previously been recognized at the Planning Institute of Australia Awards for planning excellence, received the Wendy Chadwick Encouragement Award for innovation and won the Local Government Managers Australia (Queensland) Award for Sustainability Excellence.

The nay-sayers can call them unrealiables as much as they like, but $1.7 Million being invested back into my community and not going to power companies can only be a good thing in my books.  :cup: :cup: :cup:
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Nomad on September 03, 2018, 07:24:14 PM
but but but Noosa is meant to be the greenest location of all........I mean we have a biosphere ffs that takes about $1m a year to run that so far has achieved..........well nothing I can think of................our council are a bunch of small time losers..........thanks for the airport by the way we will get a substantial return out of that project.

It pretty ****ed that everyone up here laughs at the money being invested in the Sunshine Coast Council area and the debt that Jamieson has gone into to do that but for every dollar he spends I reckon it'll make $5 to $10 in the medium term..........

My business in Maroochydore and CaLoundra are going gang busters whilst Noosa just plods along. Noosa is great if you are minted and own beach front real estate........three homes have now sold for $15m, $16m and $18m in Sunshine Beach......what a ****ing joke
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on September 04, 2018, 12:40:18 AM
Fortunately there are still some decision makers that haven't got their heads completely buried in the sand and also consider the future when planning new projects.
I guess it helps when 40% of your constituents are thinking along the same lines and have invested in the future on their own homes...

The nay-sayers can call them unrealiables as much as they like, but $1.7 Million being invested back into my community and not going to power companies can only be a good thing in my books.  :cup: :cup: :cup:

1.7 million back into the community.......BUT......how much did the farm cost (community money ) and how long before the community breaks even ?
Title: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on September 04, 2018, 07:32:40 AM
1.7 million back into the community.......BUT......how much did the farm cost (community money ) and how long before the community breaks even ?
That’s a bit of a hard one to nail down.

Official numbers say it cost $35M to construct and has a forecast 30 year life span.
Each year will be different in terms of overall hours of sunlight, but with $1.7M in savings this year, it looks on track to at least break even over its life.


However, if you happen to be the type that reads Murdock owned newspapers they claim the actual cost was more like $75M, just a little bit more then the official figure.
But Murdock owned papers don’t have any sort of agenda when it comes to those evil renewables, they would never lie or make up figures to suit their agenda, that they don’t have....
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on September 04, 2018, 08:45:28 AM
That’s a bit of a hard one to nail down.

Official numbers say it cost $35M to construct and has a forecast 30 year life span.
Each year will be different in terms of overall hours of sunlight, but with $1.7M in savings this year, it looks on track to at least break even over its life.


However, if you happen to be the type that reads Murdock owned newspapers they claim the actual cost was more like $75M, just a little bit more then the official figure.
But Murdock owned papers don’t have any sort of agenda when it comes to those evil renewables, they would never lie or make up figures to suit their agenda, that they don’t have....

And that is dilema of renewables....and why power prices may have to increase.....someone has to pay for the installation of a new power source (and that goes for a coal one as well ) ..but for the equivalent power output, renewables are far more expensive than a coal power plant.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: glenm64 on September 04, 2018, 08:59:23 AM
Unreliables are going to help fix the (unreliable) power system at Kalbari.
Wind and Solar with a battery bank will be the power source used to feed into the traditional generation system.
https://thewest.com.au/news/wa/renewable-energy-set-to-end-kalbarris-electricity-woes-ng-b88738652z
Call it what you want, but it is the way of the future. Technology will keep improving and eventually renewables will be the main stay.
Now excuse me as I go and hitch up my horse and buggy, cause them there fandangle automatic carriages are just too reckless.

Cheers Glen

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on September 04, 2018, 09:10:28 AM
The only way for renewable power prices is down

Last year, Origin Energy stunned the market by signing a long-term deal to buy electricity from the Stockyard Hill windfarm being developed west of Ballarat in Victoria, reportedly at less than $55 a megawatt hour.

That set a new benchmark. AGL swiftly followed suit at its Coopers Gap windfarm project in south-east Queensland, which is set to be the largest wind farm in Australia.
 A wholesale price for wind energy has been established at between $50 and $60 a megawatt hour.

A series of similar deals followed, firmly establishing a wholesale price for wind energy at between $50 and $60 a megawatt hour.

Electricity from large-scale solar power plants is now similarly priced, after dramatic declines in the costs of production for solar modules.

"The numbers right now are between $50 and $60 a megawatt hour," says David Leitch of ITK Services, an independent energy analyst with decades of experience, who has previously worked for major investment banks.

How does the price of new coal power compare?

Given Friday's events, it's worth briefly recapping our national energy policy over the past 20 years.


The Australian Parliament has proven itself unable to reach consensus on climate change policy, even when the parties are close enough to touch. It's a familiar tale, writes Annabel Crabb.

At market rates of financing, the lowest cost of electricity from a new coal generator using so-called "high-efficiency, low-emissions" technology would be more than $150 a megawatt hour, according to Bloomberg New Energy Finance.

In the absence of big government subsidies and underwriting, analysts say a new coal generator would need a price of more than $80 a megawatt hour for its electricity just to cover the costs of its operation.

Meanwhile, the only way for renewable power prices appears to be down.

The cost of solar power modules has fallen by up to 30 per cent this year alone, according to recent analysis by Bank of America/Merrill Lynch, with huge supply from China driving prices down.

With new solar panels now available that you can simply print and stick on your roof, the likelihood is that prices will plummet in the future.
The reality is new coal power is not the answer

According to Goldman Sachs, wind and solar power prices will fall by between one-third and 43 per cent by 2025. Some analysts consider this a estimate conservative.

There is a caveat — because renewable energy sources are variable, there will be a future need for "balancing" or stabilising technologies to maintain adequate electricity supply 24/7 as the penetration of renewable energy increases.


But the cheapest way to do this, according to the Australian Energy Market Operator and most analysts, is a combination of battery storage (likely to fall in price as production scales up), pumped hydro and electricity from gas-fired power plants to meet peaks in demand — not coal.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: paceman on September 04, 2018, 09:27:54 AM
here's a couple of real-world articles, using real-world current data (not analyst projections) that show why coal-powered electricity generation is critical for the foreseeable future:

https://papundits.wordpress.com/2018/08/13/australian-daily-electrical-power-generation-data-sunday-12th-august-2018-plus-weekly-and-rolling-totals/

https://papundits.wordpress.com/2018/05/13/australian-daily-electrical-power-generation-data-introduction-with-permanent-link-to-daily-and-weekly-posts/


comment from one of the articles (emphasis mine):

Quote
With this Series of Posts, I hope to show that while renewable power is making a contribution, that contribution is small when compared to actual power consumption overall, and when such a huge amount of power is required on an absolute basis, at a regular basis as well, then that can only be delivered by dedicated large scale power plants which can actually do thatd here in Australia, that means it is coal fired power, which is far and away the largest supplier.


whilst renewables may be the holy grail (cheap, plentiful, reliable) of the future, the assumption that renewables can replace our current coal-generated power right now is laughable and dangerous.

it may happen in the future (and that's cool), but there needs to be a staggered, well-thought out approach.

which isn't what we have now.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: paceman on September 04, 2018, 09:31:35 AM
some interesting, real-world numbers at this site:

https://anero.id/energy/

the "Today's Energy Production by Source" graph is particularly useful.

change the 'Grouping' to 'Fuel source - primary' to get a real idea of just what renewables would have to replace for coal to be 'obsolete'.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: glenm64 on September 04, 2018, 09:44:37 AM
Agree 100% Paceman.
Problem is we all know theres a need for a change, a transition. But the politics get in the way and coal is pushed as the default.
If all subsidies(and politics) where removed on both sides, I wonder what the capital investment companies long-term decisions would be.
People see renewables as solar and wind, but there are lots of other technologies here and coming into the market.

Cheers Glen

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: paceman on September 04, 2018, 09:52:35 AM
Agree 100% Paceman.
Problem is we all know theres a need for a change, a transition. But the politics get in the way and coal is pushed as the default.
If all subsidies(and politics) where removed on both sides, I wonder what the capital investment companies long-term decisions would be.
People see renewables as solar and wind, but there are lots of other technologies here and coming into the market.

Cheers Glen

coal is the default at the moment, because nothing can replace it.  the numbers bear that out.

that is the reality that we need to face.

yes, renewables can take some load, but it is a fantasy to believe that coal can just be removed from the equation in the next few years.

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Fizzie on September 04, 2018, 10:21:41 AM
it may happen in the future (and that's cool), but there needs to be a staggered, well-thought out approach.

which isn't what we have now.

& that's the killer, Pace :'(

We should have been having a "staggered, well-thought out approach" for the last 15 years or so, but the bloody pollies in Can'tberra can't make a decision that lasts for any longer than 12 months, or a change of PM, whichever is sooner >:D
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on September 04, 2018, 10:24:33 AM
Existing Coal is the cheapest form of generation, then comes wind and solar BUT they are intermittent, then of similar cost is new coal (factoring in build costs) and Wind and solar plus storage.

Given the trend of renewables plus storage prices, this is what most future generation will likely come from, but in the interest of keeping power prices down, we would be wise to keep the existing coal generation online for as long as feasible. 
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: glenm64 on September 04, 2018, 10:28:07 AM


coal is the default at the moment, because nothing can replace it.  the numbers bear that out.


Im not debating coal being the present day base load default power source.
A big issue we as a nation have, is we are politically hamstrung on is future power generation. For example back in the 40's and 50's, we had politicians who made decisions based on the betterment of future generations, not the next poll results. What decision would those real leaders make?
What I find ironic with what the latest ideas on pulling back power prices, is regulating the prices that can be charged. Deregulation and privatization was meant to give us the cheapest power prices. Now they're going back full circle.
Here in WA its still government owned. Power prices are set by government, balanced between making a profit (which is returned to government coffers) and being palatable to voters at the next election.
Bet some wish they never sold off the farm.


Cheers Glen

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: wada4wd on September 04, 2018, 02:09:04 PM
Existing Coal is the cheapest form of generation, then comes wind and solar BUT they are intermittent, then of similar cost is new coal (factoring in build costs) and Wind and solar plus storage.

Given the trend of renewables plus storage prices, this is what most future generation will likely come from, but in the interest of keeping power prices down, we would be wise to keep the existing coal generation online for as long as feasible.

Correct. We aren't dumping the current coal system until it is worn out. Over time, there will be way more renewable power than today, and the worst of the coal system will eventually be closed because it takes more $$ to maintain it and more expensive to dig, transport, and burn coal than renewable power. Renewables are built and don't burn stuff adding emissions to the atmosphere every day of every year like the coal system does it.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Paddler Ed on September 04, 2018, 03:05:16 PM
A couple of interesting reads from the BBC:
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20180822-why-china-is-transforming-the-worlds-solar-energy (http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20180822-why-china-is-transforming-the-worlds-solar-energy)
and the piece that follows is about Drax, a coal fired power station:
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20180821-the-giant-coal-plant-converting-to-green-energy (http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20180821-the-giant-coal-plant-converting-to-green-energy)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on September 05, 2018, 01:21:28 AM
Correct. We aren't dumping the current coal system until it is worn out. Over time, there will be way more renewable power than today, and the worst of the coal system will eventually be closed because it takes more $$ to maintain it and more expensive to dig, transport, and burn coal than renewable power. Renewables are built and don't burn stuff adding emissions to the atmosphere every day of every year like the coal system does it.

What a lot aren't realising is until we have a system where renewables can fully replace coal, which is base load power....coal will continue to be our main source of power.
Apart from Denmark, which can do it some of the time, I can't think of any other country that can be reliant on renewables to power themselves 24/7...?
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Cruiser 105Tvan on September 05, 2018, 01:50:13 AM
And in the mean time the privately owned coal fired Generators are being shut down, because Maintenance is a cost the power companies are not prepared to meet.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on September 05, 2018, 03:17:40 AM
And in the mean time the privately owned coal fired Generators are being shut down, because Maintenance is a cost the power companies are not prepared to meet.

The complicating factor is in that often the energy companies stand to make more money by shutting down the coal fired plants and selling renewables at a higher price instead. Alinta offered to buy Liddell power plant and keep it online beyond it planned closure but AGL said "the offer was not in the best interests of either the company or its shareholders." i.e. they can make more money by stopping it generating cheap power and replacing it with renewables which they can sell for a greater price.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: GeoffA on September 05, 2018, 05:59:15 AM
Subsidising renewables is akin to a Ponzi scheme.
Power prices cannot fall if we keep subsidising more and more renewables.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on September 05, 2018, 06:10:36 AM
Subsidising renewables is akin to a Ponzi scheme.
Power prices cannot fall if we keep subsidising more and more renewables.

Geoff...Here is the winner of Australias biggest Ponzi Scheme benefactor.........Each year, the Australian government spends billions of dollars of public money on programmes that encourage more coal, gas and oil to be extracted and burned. Market Forces estimates that tax-based fossil fuel subsidies amount to almost $11 billion per year federally. This figure includes subsidies that support both the production and consumption of fossil fuels.

But tax-based subsidies aren’t the only government financial support afforded to fossil fuels. Direct handouts and contributions to the fossil fuel industry are doled out at both federal and state levels. On top of this, public money is used to finance fossil fuels through our national export credit agency EFIC, as well as our involvement with international financial institutions.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: GeoffA on September 05, 2018, 06:15:56 AM
BF, if you're going to c+p, you really should credit the source.

"Look over there" does not directly address the point.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on September 05, 2018, 07:09:04 AM
BF, if you're going to c+p, you really should credit the source.

"Look over there" does not directly address the point.

Just for you Geoff....https://www.marketforces.org.au/campaigns/ffs/ (https://www.marketforces.org.au/campaigns/ffs/)


There are heaps more sites letting us know how many billions coal is subsidised...just like heaps of other industries in Oz.

Heres one for mining...
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: GeoffA on September 05, 2018, 07:15:04 AM
There are heaps more sites letting us know how many billions coal is subsidised...

More "look over there"....

Coal and gas are major exports for the country. Hardly comparable to the subsidising of renewables...
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on September 05, 2018, 07:29:43 AM
More "look over there"....

Coal and gas are major exports for the country. Hardly comparable to the subsidising of renewables...

I think its very comparable.  Here we are faced with rising electricity costs, subsidising our gas and coal industry and virtually giving the stuff away to other countries! . We cant even use much gas for ourselves as our stupid govts and greedy corporations are taking our assets at little cost and selling very cheaply to overseas nations that on sell at huge profits. Adani, if they get going, have the same aim...mine , pay and export coal cheaply and make a killing on the world market.  And the governments want to subsidise this shonky outfit as well.  The subsidising of renewables is for our direct benefit...just look at the Australian innovations and technological advancement in solar and battery. Only several days ago a company in Victoria/NSW is printing off solar panels from a pc computer.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: paceman on September 05, 2018, 08:30:02 AM
Just for you Geoff....https://www.marketforces.org.au/campaigns/ffs/ (https://www.marketforces.org.au/campaigns/ffs/)


There are heaps more sites letting us know how many billions coal is subsidised...just like heaps of other industries in Oz.

Heres one for mining...

no-one doubts that coal gets subsidies as well... that is plainly obvious and not in question...

in real life, governments are paying way more $$$ to keep a renewables industry going that is currently inefficient and does not provide the cheap, plentiful and reliable power that people in the real world need.

at least there is a return on the subsidy investment into coal-powered electricity generation.

imagine how much could be done in the areas of health and education (to use your graphic's examples) with the subsidies currently paid to renewables?


and as a side note, i would hardly use the 'marketforces' organisation as a bastion of unbiased analysis, considering they have a vested interest in the success of renewables:

from their 'about us' page (emphasis mine):

Quote
Our vision is a future where institutions invest with a high degree of respect for the environment, utilising our money to deliver solutions to major environmental issues


Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: paceman on September 05, 2018, 08:39:31 AM
The complicating factor is in that often the energy companies stand to make more money by shutting down the coal fired plants and selling renewables at a higher price instead. Alinta offered to buy Liddell power plant and keep it online beyond it planned closure but AGL said "the offer was not in the best interests of either the company or its shareholders." i.e. they can make more money by stopping it generating cheap power and replacing it with renewables which they can sell for a greater price.

ding, ding, ding... we have a winner...

private companies should not be responsible for wholesale power generation.... let the government control the wholesale generation and then private companies can provide retail services.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: jfella on September 05, 2018, 09:49:47 AM
Just for you Geoff....https://www.marketforces.org.au/campaigns/ffs/ (https://www.marketforces.org.au/campaigns/ffs/)


There are heaps more sites letting us know how many billions coal is subsidised...just like heaps of other industries in Oz.

Heres one for mining...

Sorry what you attached is completely misleading to the point of being deceitful

* The 11.3B in subsidies quoted includes 6.5B related to the diesel fuel tax rebate - the government applies taxes to the cost of diesel fuel to pay for public roads but as this fuel is not for vehicles operating on public roads, it refunds the tax charged on purchase (note mining companies pay a separate road tax in QLD for use of roads for moving product - which other industries dont).
* Of the remaining tax quoted, basically all of them are available to all companies regardless of industry
* Regardless of above, where this the value of all the royalties paid to governments by mining?





Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on September 05, 2018, 10:17:02 AM
Getting off topic, but in response to the above....

"Just how important is the mining industry to our economy?
Short answer: not nearly as much as it wants us to believe, and has conned our politicians into believing.

Because people like me have spent so much time over the past decade and more banging on about the resources boom, we've probably left many people with an exaggerated impression of the sector's importance.
It's true that, thanks to a quadrupling in the value of its physical capital, mining now accounts for about 7 per cent of our total production of goods and services (gross domestic product), compared with less than 5 per cent in 2004, at the start of the boom.

But 7 per cent ain't all that much, and if you measure mining by how much of our workforce it employs, it's even less: 2 per cent.
That's just 230,000 people, about as many as are employed in the arts and recreation.

It compares with 300,000 workers in agriculture, 400,000 in financial services, 800,000 in accommodation and food services, 900,000 in manufacturing, almost a million in education, a million in construction, another million in professional services, 1.2 million in retailing and 1.5 million in healthcare.

Still think the economy revolves around mining?

How can an industry account for 7 per cent of our production but only 2 per cent of our jobs? Because it's so "capital intensive" - it uses a lot of expensive equipment, but not many humans.

Because it employs so few people directly, the industry is always paying "independent" economic consultants to estimate how many people it employs "indirectly" as dollars earned from mining are spent in other parts of the economy.

This is always a good way to impress judges - who know a lot about law, but little about economics - when you're trying to persuade them to let you despoil the environment.
It's true that money earned from mining has a "multiplier effect" when spent. But it's just as true of money earned from any other industry. Or money spent by the government.
Normally I'd be happy to defend an industry against the idea that it didn't contribute much because its capital intensity meant it directly employed few workers.
That's because what matters most is how much income the industry earns from its production. When that income is spent - by employees, suppliers, tax-receiving governments or profit-earning shareholders - jobs will be created somewhere in the economy.

In the case of mining, however, there's weakness in the argument.
Our mining industry is about 80 per cent foreign-owned - mainly by BHP Billiton, Rio Tinto and Glencore - which, in econospeak, adds a huge "leakage" to the "circular flow of income" around our economy. (Another leakage is that most of the heavy equipment the miners and natural gas producers use is imported.)

If most of the profits made by our (highly profitable) mining industry don't belong to us and end up being spent in some other economy, this greatly reduces the economic benefit we get.
Which makes it doubly important the mining companies are paying a fair rate of tax on their earnings in Oz.

Here, the industry often pays "independent" economic consultants to write reports showing what huge amounts of tax it pays.
But these usually rely on the legal fiction that the minerals royalties the miners pay to state governments are a tax.
In economics, a tax is something you pay the government for nothing specific in return (if you are paying for something specific, it's a "user charge").

Royalties are a user charge.
The miners are buying access to valuable mineral deposits owned by us. Royalties are levied on different bases but, overall, they're probably charging less than the minerals are worth.

So the miners shouldn't expect brownie points for paying for the minerals we hand over to them. The Rudd government did try to ensure we taxed their profits more fairly and adequately but, as you recall, the miners objected and so Tony Abbott abolished what was left of the tax.

But, whatever their profits, they're paying 30 per cent of them in company tax, right?
Right in theory but, as we've realised, in practice not so much.

Our big foreign mining companies are heavily into minimising the tax they pay by moving profits offshore, claiming to do their "marketing" in Singapore, where the tax rate is lower.
All of which makes you wonder how well we do from our foreign-dominated mining industry, considering all the environmental and economic disruption we have to put up with.

But it's worse than that. Our politicians, state and federal, are so desperate to create the temporary appearance of progress and jobs that mining projects bring - and, no doubt, to say thanks for the generous political donations the miners make - that they often use the offer of hefty subsidies to attract them.

The subsidy comes in the form of governments building railways, ports and other infrastructure on the miners' behalf. (Not to mention the federal government's exemption of mining from paying the diesel fuel excise, worth billions a year.)

Take the Indian Adani company's proposed Carmichael coal mine in central Queensland, which is so huge it would lower the world price of coal, to the disadvantage all existing Australian coal miners.
Queensland's Newman government was so keen to use the project as proof of progress it offered Adani a "royalty holiday". Now the Turnbull government is offering a $1 billion-plus concessional loan in the name of developing Northern Australia.

Both the miners and the politicians indignantly deny the industry receives any subsidies. But that's not what the West Australian and Queensland treasuries say in their submissions to the Commonwealth Grants Commission, revealing how poor the mining companies keep them.

If the nation is ahead on the mining deal, it ain't by a lot."

Source; https://www.smh.com.au/business/minings-economic-contribution-not-as-big-as-you-might-think-20170203-gu4r5l.html (https://www.smh.com.au/business/minings-economic-contribution-not-as-big-as-you-might-think-20170203-gu4r5l.html)

To be clear, I'm not apposed to mining.
I am apposed to miners freely getting their way with our weak as water politicians and not paying us what they should be.
And in turn (as the article above points out) sections of the public are lead to believe the mining industry (as it is right now) are the saviors of our economy. Which clearly it is not.

But to get back on track.
The "look over there" tactics are employed on both sides of this energy debate.
I'm interested to note that putting up the running cost of an existing old technology power station against the cost of developing a new technology and building new modern power plants is seen as a fare augment about our country's future by some people.

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: paceman on September 05, 2018, 10:33:24 AM
I'm interested to note that putting up the running cost of an existing old technology power station against the cost of developing a new technology and building new modern power plants is seen as a fare augment about our country's future by some people.

keeping the older plants running as long as possible is a sensible part of a long-term transition strategy:

https://www.afr.com/news/politics/prolong-the-life-of-coalfired-power-stations-in-the-national-electricity-market-says-australian-energy-market-operator-20180716-h12r9n (https://www.afr.com/news/politics/prolong-the-life-of-coalfired-power-stations-in-the-national-electricity-market-says-australian-energy-market-operator-20180716-h12r9n)

a snippet from the article (emphasis mine):

Quote
the Australian Energy Market Operator's plan to be released on Tuesday warns against the early retirement of coal-fired power plants, saying they provide essential low-cost energy as well as stability in the power system.

"Maintaining existing coal-fired generation up to the end of its technical life is a key element of a low-cost approach," the report said.


closing them down (ie: Hazelwood) is largely a money-making exercise by private companies, who are not interested in providing cheap, reliable and plentiful power to consumers.

like any private company, their first loyalties lie with shareholders.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: BC66 on September 05, 2018, 11:11:07 AM
Hi guys
Lots of passionate responses here. Have any of you registered with Clean Energy Council ?
http://www.cleanenergycouncil.org.au/cec.html
Lots of interesting points and they often have webinar on the hot topics.
The day before the news about the new Prime-minister there was a webinar about the coal mines and the possibility of ending the STC program which will have a massive effect in the solar industry and how the Vic gov is offering terrific deals on new solar installations.
For those that are unsure of what an STC is , it’s a rebate paid back to offset the cost of a new solar installation. The Federal gov wants them to end which to the home owner equates to approx an extra $3500 additional cost to a 5kw system
The Gov has actually asked that sales of coal mines to end and that the owners keep them running.
Where I work we supply Energex and I once asked a cheeky question to them saying with all the solar coming on board, why is my power bill getting more expensive?
The answer is because of the solar inputs
New substations and infrastructure are needed, the electricity companies make money selling us power and with less people buying power, the expense to provide to us without solar has to go up because Power Stations still cost money to run.
It’s a vicious circle


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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Paddler Ed on September 05, 2018, 11:46:59 AM
The knock on effect to regional economies is interesting; I know of a few companies that have suffered because they've lost tradies to the mines after investing time and money into their development:
https://www.northerndailyleader.com.au/story/5625931/uphill-battle-to-stop-drain-of-skilled-workers-to-the-mines/?cs=159 (https://www.northerndailyleader.com.au/story/5625931/uphill-battle-to-stop-drain-of-skilled-workers-to-the-mines/?cs=159)

OK, it's Barnyard's publicity piece, but there are valid points....

A response of pay them more isn't go to wash; unfortunately most regional companies can't afford to pay more to retain staff, the big mining companies have skewed the markets that much.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Rumpig on September 05, 2018, 06:44:39 PM
I used to get a cheque once a year for about $800.  Now I get about $300...Still better than paying.  This was probably one of the smarter things I have done..
we used to get about $350 back each quarter several years ago, last quarter we had a $140 bill....might be time to add a few more panels I reckon. Our inverter is bigger then the amount of panels we fitted to the house originally in order not to effect us adding on down the track, bit of future planning on our behalf.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: BC66 on September 05, 2018, 06:47:59 PM
If you change your system you will void the rebate tarrif and go on the current rates


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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Rumpig on September 05, 2018, 06:52:01 PM
If you change your system you will void the rebate tarrif and go on the current rates


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
not an issue for us i believe....we signed up for a bigger solar system then we currently run, the inverter size is what it is about and we aren't changing that, we never fitted the maximum amount of panels we could of originally.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: jwb on September 05, 2018, 06:52:28 PM
Shhhhhhhhh
He won't tell em! :))

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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on September 05, 2018, 07:54:29 PM
not an issue for us i believe....we signed up for a bigger solar system then we currently run, the inverter size is what it is about and we aren't changing that, we never fitted the maximum amount of panels we could of originally.

Based on ads I have seen for used panels, they seem to replace the whole lot so all the panels are the same, don't know enough about RT solar though to know if it's a necessity or just a upsell though.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: glenm64 on September 05, 2018, 08:03:42 PM
not an issue for us i believe....we signed up for a bigger solar system then we currently run, the inverter size is what it is about and we aren't changing that, we never fitted the maximum amount of panels we could of originally.
You can over clock most inverters by around 25 - 30%. Your inverters rated output wont be exceeded, but by splitting the orientation of them you will get a longer output duration.

Cheers Glen

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Rumpig on September 05, 2018, 08:22:35 PM
You can over clock most inverters by around 25 - 30%. Your inverters rated output wont be exceeded, but by splitting the orientation of them you will get a longer output duration.

Cheers Glen
we can do that but don't need to, we have a 4KW inverter only running 3KW of panels...have the space to add more panels, just didn't see the need to have that many when we originally installed them years ago. The one thing we do need to do is run another line to the inverter for the extra panels, apparently we can't piggy back off what is already there.....can't remember exact reason why now, but think that line is at it's limit maybe.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: prodigyrf on September 05, 2018, 08:57:18 PM
Finally the engineers are coming out and saying it-

"Electricity bills will soar and gas and coal-fired power stations will close if the share of wind and solar generation increases dramat­ically, engineers have warned after analysing the nation’s ­energy supply.
The analysis casts doubt on Labor’s claim that a 50 per cent renewable energy target — the centrepiece of the opposition’s climate change policy — would reduce electricity prices.
It found bills were likely to soar 84 per cent, or about $1400 a year, for the typical household, if wind and solar power supplied 55 per cent of the national electricity market.

The analysis by a group of veteran engineers — written and funded by five mechanical, chemical, electrical and nuclear engineers, with decades of experience in the power industry — was sent to premiers, federal cabinet ministers and shadow cabinet late last month."

(via Adam Creighton-Economics Editor, The Australian, 5th Sept)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: arjay on September 05, 2018, 09:41:28 PM
It's not rocket science - no sun, no wind = no power.
Ooh - that's why the pollies can't see it
Title: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on September 05, 2018, 09:57:14 PM
Finally the engineers are coming out and saying
Hmmm... Interesting...
I don’t give any of my money to Rupert, so can’t read the full article and see which “think tank” funded that report.

Here’s another report from an actual official legitimate organization for actual engineers.
Quote
The Institution of Engineers, Australia was first established in 1919, as a result of the amalgamation of 12 existing engineering societies in Australia. From their Web site, July 2002: "The Institution of Engineers Australia (IEAust) is the largest and most diverse engineering association in Australia, with approximately 60 000 members.

So what do these professionals say on this topic?

“Australia’s electricity market consumption is expected to remain relatively flat for the next 20 years, but our power stations are old and will struggle to continue to fuel demand.
The projection was made in the Australian Institution of Engineers “The Future of Australian Electricity Generation Report” which was published yesterday.

The report, penned by Mark Stewart, said that Australia’s electricity market recently experienced a fall in demand for power and that it is expected to remain relatively flat .
This is due to industry restructuring and greater public awareness of energy conservation, which has altered consumer behaviour. If things stay as they are, Australia’s power stations will continue to produce enough electricity to fuel peak demand, and no additional generation capacity is expected to be required for the next seven to 10 years unless existing generators close.
But these findings are not likely to have any effect on spot and futures prices and Australia continues to pay some of the highest electricity rates as shown in this report. The Federal Government dragged its feet in finding solutions and the announcement of 11th hour gas deals, the expansion of Snowy Hydro and new investments are not likely to drive spot and futures prices in the short-term.
 
“Policy makers must realise that a transitional approach is necessary, recognising that ageing coal plants will need to be replaced with considerations to Australia’s global commitments to emission reductions”
The majority of these high capacity power plants are fuelled by high emitting fossil fuels, and are major contributors to Australia’s greenhouse gas emissions. This is incompatible with Australia’s greenhouse gas emission reduction targets.
The Chamber called for politicians to sit up and take notice of what is going on around them and to act ahead of the inevitable mothballing of the dirt, ageing plants.
“Policy makers must realise that a transitional approach is necessary, beginning with the recognition that these plants will need to be replaced with considerations to Australia’s global commitments to emission reductions,” the report advised.”

Here’s the full report;  https://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/Pitch-Better-Nation/Australian-Electricity-Generation (https://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/Pitch-Better-Nation/Australian-Electricity-Generation)

It’s a bit more factual and boring then those conspiracy theory websites, but it is written by actual engineers...
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: GeoffA on September 05, 2018, 10:23:34 PM
Hmmm... Interesting...
I don’t give any of my money to Rupert, so can’t read the full article and see which “think tank” funded that report.
.....

Pete, it says they self-funded.

If the last few years have show us anything, it's that greater penetration of renewables does not reduce power prices.

Any system of subsidies that takes money from those that can least afford it, and hands it to those that least need it must surely be due for a major overhaul....

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: prodigyrf on September 06, 2018, 01:58:16 AM
The main spokesman of that analysis is this gentleman-
https://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/Event/eminent-speaker-dr-robert-barr-australias-green-electricity-schemes-cost-benefits (https://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/Event/eminent-speaker-dr-robert-barr-australias-green-electricity-schemes-cost-benefits)
and they look at the levelized costs of trying to achieve 50% renewables and point out that whilst wind and solar have very low marginal costs of generation (ie after the sunk capital costs) many analysts ignore the cost burden of extra transmission to diverse wind and solar farms that are often large distances from consumers, as well as the costs of thermal generation as backup. ie to cover this sort of extreme variability - https://anero.id/energy/wind-energy/2018/april (https://anero.id/energy/wind-energy/2018/april) bearing in mind wind generation output averages around 30% of installed capacity over a seasonal year and obviously solar doesn't generate at night or very minimally on wet/overcast days.

Those cost externalities are currently being shifted onto large coal fired power stations which cannot ramp up and down cost effectively so they're being bankrupted as a result(or at the least there's no margin for depreciation and hence replacement) which currently leaves the field to more expensive cogeneration gas which also struggles with ramping up and down to be efficient(eg Pelican Point), thereby leaving the field to even less efficient and much more expensive gas peaking plants ('open-cycle'). Also the switch away from coal is driving the backup gas prices ever higher and overall power prices like laboratory South Australia leading the charge. Currently SA relies on an interconnector to Vic and the rest of the NEM but should States like Vic and NSW follow suit that's a fallacy of composition as Hazelwood follows Port Augusta and Liddell is next cab off the rank.

“Looking at the total cost of particular forms of energy in isolation is sensible only if you’re going to rely on that form of energy alone, but for the electricity market, it’s the total system costs that matters,” Mr Murphy said.(another spokesman for the engineering group here- https://www.epce.com.au/ (https://www.epce.com.au/)) Their conclusion is long before a national grid got to 50% or 65% renewables all the backup coal and gas plants would be out of business and where would that leave us all? That's what the debate's all about in Canberra now as a train wreck looms and power prices are already driving some householders to desperate measures by all accounts- https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/dodgy-electricians-who-offered-cheap-wiring-and-illegal-unmetered-power-are-linked-to-the-death-of-a-24-year-old-tradie-who-was-electrocuted-while-working-on-a-sydney-home/ar-BBMSRKL (https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/dodgy-electricians-who-offered-cheap-wiring-and-illegal-unmetered-power-are-linked-to-the-death-of-a-24-year-old-tradie-who-was-electrocuted-while-working-on-a-sydney-home/ar-BBMSRKL)


 
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Troopy_03 on September 06, 2018, 07:13:14 AM
Finally the engineers are coming out and saying it-

"Electricity bills will soar and gas and coal-fired power stations will close if the share of wind and solar generation increases dramat­ically, engineers have warned after analysing the nation’s ­energy supply.
The analysis casts doubt on Labor’s claim that a 50 per cent renewable energy target — the centrepiece of the opposition’s climate change policy — would reduce electricity prices.
It found bills were likely to soar 84 per cent, or about $1400 a year, for the typical household, if wind and solar power supplied 55 per cent of the national electricity market.

The analysis by a group of veteran engineers — written and funded by five mechanical, chemical, electrical and nuclear engineers, with decades of experience in the power industry — was sent to premiers, federal cabinet ministers and shadow cabinet late last month."

(via Adam Creighton-Economics Editor, The Australian, 5th Sept)

OK, so they have a vested interest in their own findings.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on September 06, 2018, 07:25:22 AM
Pete, it says they self-funded.

If the last few years have show us anything, it's that greater penetration of renewables does not reduce power prices.

Any system of subsidies that takes money from those that can least afford it, and hands it to those that least need it must surely be due for a major overhaul....

 :cheers:

All subsidies come from state or commonwealth govts.   The money comes from rich and poor alike. Hands it to those that can least afford it?..bullShit.  The vast majority of these people took out loans to get their system in place.  They were and are smart enough to know that by taking a little pain now they can save some further down the track.  Big majority of people who have solar are just working class people trying to save a dollar.  Subsidies now are only around 8 cents a Kw and the solar system is subsidised  a fair whack. You dont have to be a millionaire to get solar.  Just smart. The subsidies have been coming down. Subsidies are a real part of our life.   How many millions went into the car industry/   for no avail
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: paceman on September 06, 2018, 07:32:32 AM
here's a (hopefully) working link to the article quoted in previous posts:

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/climate/engineers-warn-ofbill-shock-under-green-energy-surge/news-story/89ef58cbc07a13726bbf9a014540ce17 (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/climate/engineers-warn-ofbill-shock-under-green-energy-surge/news-story/89ef58cbc07a13726bbf9a014540ce17)

and IMO, this paragraph is a key one:

Quote
The AEMO forecast would require more than a 40-fold increase in the solar capacity and around a tripling of the number of wind turbines. “That’s a total of 62,000MW of unreliable, intermittent, weather-dependent generating capacity, with a lot situated a long way from points of high consumption,”


even if solar and wind become very efficient, it will still be intermittent, weather-dependent and far away from the bulk of people who need it, thus making it more expensive to implement and maintain, along with transmission implementation and maintenance.

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: paceman on September 06, 2018, 07:38:30 AM
All subsidies come from state or commonwealth govts.   The money comes from rich and poor alike. Hands it to those that can least afford it?..bullShit.  The vast majority of these people took out loans to get their system in place.  They were and are smart enough to know that by taking a little pain now they can save some further down the track.  Big majority of people who have solar are just working class people trying to save a dollar.  Subsidies now are only around 8 cents a Kw and the solar system is subsidised  a fair whack. You dont have to be a millionaire to get solar.  Just smart. The subsidies have been coming down. Subsidies are a real part of our life.   How many millions went into the car industry/   for no avail

those people you have mentioned could afford to get the loan to get the solar panels installed.  there were plenty (like myself) who weren't in a position to even get the loan to get the solar, at that stage.

to infer that it was only the 'smart' (mentioned twice in the quote above) that got solar is insulting.  plenty of families would have loved to have gotten on the 44c bandwagon, but weren't in a position to. 

and now the 44c rebate is having it's own effect on power prices in qld, which in turn affects those who could not afford to implement solar at that time.


Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: BC66 on September 06, 2018, 07:43:38 AM
To make it more efficient each home or business will need battery storage of some type, I can tell you now that this will open the door for legislation to have solar systems be maintained on a regular basis to ensure the safety of the occupants.
Emergency services are quite concerned with Lithium batteries and how to put them out in a fire.  I had a meeting last year with the head of fire investigations here in Brisbane. He was shocked that one of the most famous Lithium battery companies told him that in the event of fire. Maintain the surrounding properties as it is extremely difficult to extinguish a lithium fueled fire unless special foam is used.


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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: paceman on September 06, 2018, 07:54:35 AM
To make it more efficient each home or business will need battery storage of some type, I can tell you now that this will open the door for legislation to have solar systems be maintained on a regular basis to ensure the safety of the occupants.
Emergency services are quite concerned with Lithium batteries and how to put them out in a fire.  I had a meeting last year with the head of fire investigations here in Brisbane. He was shocked that one of the most famous Lithium battery companies told him that in the event of fire. Maintain the surrounding properties as it is extremely difficult to extinguish a lithium fueled fire unless special foam is used.


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+1...

that's why i'll be checking these out, when finances allow:

https://www.zcell.com/ (https://www.zcell.com/)


Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: krisandkev on September 06, 2018, 07:59:59 AM
those people you have mentioned could afford to get the loan to get the solar panels installed.  there were plenty (like myself) who weren't in a position to even get the loan to get the solar, at that stage.

to infer that it was only the 'smart' (mentioned twice in the quote above) that got solar is insulting.  plenty of families would have loved to have gotten on the 44c bandwagon, but weren't in a position to. 

and now the 44c rebate is having it's own effect on power prices in qld, which in turn affects those who could not afford to implement solar at that time.

Correct. Back then we paid $50 which in Qld provided us with 2 experts to come to our home and make us more green!  They replaced some of our light bulbs to the new ones and gave us a water wise shower spout. They also said our roof/s were not facing the correct way to get the best out of solar, so don't waste our money. That was when there were the big rebates.  We later found out solar would have been great. All of the bulbs they gave us have blown and been replaced. The great shower spout. As I tried to tell them, we are on tank water and have a very large dam so water is not an issue. The spout is still in the cupboard.  So what a waste of $50 and we should have ignored their EXPERT advice and got solar.  Kevin
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Poita on September 06, 2018, 09:43:24 AM
Solar isn't that expensive any more. We put in over 6kW of panels and a 5kW (max. size now in SA for residential) for a bit under $6000. We saved $1000 in 6 months of bills, so it will pay itself off in 3 years. Currently on a 16c feed-in rebate. This has come down massively over the last 5 years. I know a lot of people who wouldn't blink twice to spend that on a sound system and TV. Comes down to priorities for a lot (I know there are some who genuinely can't afford it).
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: BC66 on September 06, 2018, 10:15:38 AM
we can do that but don't need to, we have a 4KW inverter only running 3KW of panels...have the space to add more panels, just didn't see the need to have that many when we originally installed them years ago. The one thing we do need to do is run another line to the inverter for the extra panels, apparently we can't piggy back off what is already there.....can't remember exact reason why now, but think that line is at it's limit maybe.
Good morning
I was just discussing your situation with our Solar Technical advisor at work and he says that depending on where you live and the age of your system you will lose your current tarrif as they changed the regulations regarding this and you may even have to upgrade your entire system because your inverter may not be on the current CEC list.
The gov keeps changing the rules and what is compliant and what’s not. We
Have pallets of brand new inverters that now cannot be sold as new because they were taken off the CEC list.
We can sell them as direct replacement of old or faulty units or sell them outside of Australia, just not here


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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on September 06, 2018, 10:18:16 AM
Quote from: BC66
The gov keeps changing the rules and what is compliant and what’s not.
and this is the problem (one of many that a Gov with no clue on what they are doing is incharge of)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Paddler Ed on September 06, 2018, 10:31:52 AM
I think that there are some other problems:
-Low income households are more likely to be renters, and therefore are less able to undertake energy use reduction through insulation, upgrades, and actually general maintenance (I know someone in a rental who is struggling to get a new hot water element for the HWS as it's all coated in scale and therefore is chewing power to generate hot water - whereas if that was your own place, you'd sort it out.)
-Low income houses can't install solar as they don't own the place
-People are generally rubbish at cutting costs - we are at the point now with our consumption that we pay more for the supply charge than we do for the energy use... and according to our bill are using less per day than a single person household (there's 2 of us and we run on tank water)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on September 06, 2018, 11:25:13 AM
In my fantasy world.... they should be making it cheaper/more affordable for people on low incomes so they stand a chance against those with unlimited disposable at the end of each week.
Title: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: BC66 on September 06, 2018, 11:29:58 AM
Unfortunately those that can afford solar or even own a home get the benefit of solar while the rest pay more for electricity because of the people with solar.
With 4 adult kids at home our quarterly bill is always up around $1000.00
We rent so no solar for us and the house is going up for sale in 6 months so maybe that can be on our list when we move


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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Rumpig on September 06, 2018, 11:37:10 AM
Good morning
I was just discussing your situation with our Solar Technical advisor at work and he says that depending on where you live and the age of your system you will lose your current tarrif as they changed the regulations regarding this and you may even have to upgrade your entire system because your inverter may not be on the current CEC list.
The gov keeps changing the rules and what is compliant and what’s not. We
Have pallets of brand new inverters that now cannot be sold as new because they were taken off the CEC list.
We can sell them as direct replacement of old or faulty units or sell them outside of Australia, just not here


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something that look into  :cheers: hopefully the inverter is fine, it’s an SMA brand and running Bosch panels, we didn’t go the cheapie deals at the install time. Worst case scenario it stays as is, we are on a decent tariff now for a long while yet, so won’t be chucking my it away to to add another KW to the set up
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: BC66 on September 06, 2018, 11:41:04 AM
One of our guys upgraded his system and didn’t tell the electricity company. They soon worked it out because  he was exporting more power  and he was out on another plan after that


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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on September 06, 2018, 12:24:28 PM
Unfortunately those that can afford solar or even own a home get the benefit of solar while the rest pay more for electricity because of the people with solar.
With 4 adult kids at home our quarterly bill is always up around $1000.00
We rent so no solar for us and the house is going up for sale in 6 months so maybe that can be on our list when we move


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1/4 of Australian households now have power. Huge amount of business,s also are using solar (have a look at the Bunnings stores).  Dont blame the people with solar panels as the cause root of high electricity prices.  Lots of shiny new cars sold every year whilst poorer families make do with second hand jobs.  The governments inability to take a planned approach to power in Australia is the root cause for high prices.  Its easier to give our gas away than use it domestically.  Its nice when you can spend and waste other peoples money with no accountability.  Many people with solar installations have borrowed money to install their system .  I personally think that every new home should be mandated to include a solar system.   There is a lot of talk about the downside of negative gearing on the economy.  Why not make it compulsory for house owners to install a system . They get a subsidy and a tax break as well as adding value to their asset.  Would help a lot of struggling renters/families.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: BC66 on September 06, 2018, 12:31:00 PM
Where I work we sell solar systems and I have a direct connection with the power companies as part of my role here as I’m a contracted supplier for their sub stations so I have a little bit of an idea of the big picture and not the propaganda the public is told.
Basically you can’t keep a fully stocked farm running at the same price for a litre of milk when most of your customers now own their own cow
This is the problem and it’s almost if not as bad as NBN


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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Poita on September 06, 2018, 12:44:45 PM
Where I work we sell solar systems and I have a direct connection with the power companies as part of my role here as I’m a contracted supplier for their sub stations so I have a little bit of an idea of the big picture and not the propaganda the public is told.
Basically you can’t keep a fully stocked farm running at the same price for a litre of milk when most of your customers now own their own cow
This is the problem and it’s almost if not as bad as NBN


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The issue I have as an end user of the 'milk', is that it was so expensive, it made much more economic sense to purchase my own cow. If I can ever become completely self sufficient I will be even happier.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: wada4wd on September 06, 2018, 01:05:58 PM
Where I work we sell solar systems and I have a direct connection with the power companies as part of my role here as I’m a contracted supplier for their sub stations so I have a little bit of an idea of the big picture and not the propaganda the public is told.
Basically you can’t keep a fully stocked farm running at the same price for a litre of milk when most of your customers now own their own cow
This is the problem and it’s almost if not as bad as NBN

Incorrect. The people who have added solar to their houses are not destroying the power companies. Coal companies are running late because of the way the governments have been ignorant moving forward while the coal system is slowly dying.

From Reply #354:

(https://papundits.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/apr2901overall.jpg)

The major production of power is still running on the aged coal system.

Adding your own solar power is improvement of the power in your own system because the governments have failed to move forward for a decade or more. Not destroying the major companies, but supporting them while we all wait for the governments to move forward.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: BC66 on September 06, 2018, 01:23:40 PM
The issue I have as an end user of the 'milk', is that it was so expensive, it made much more economic sense to purchase my own cow. If I can ever become completely self sufficient I will be even happier.

Hey I agree and if I could have my own cow I would ! Andddddd I would be completely off grid
It’s all the Supermarkets fault. 🤣


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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: BC66 on September 06, 2018, 01:39:15 PM
Incorrect. The people who have added solar to their houses are not destroying the power companies. Coal companies are running late because of the way the governments have been ignorant moving forward while the coal system is slowly dying.

From Reply #354:

(https://papundits.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/apr2901overall.jpg)

The major production of power is still running on the aged coal system.

Adding your own solar power is improvement of the power in your own system because the governments have failed to move forward for a decade or more. Not destroying the major companies, but supporting them while we all wait for the governments to move forward.
I never said that solar was destroying power companies so using my quote with that is putting words in my mouth.
I think it’s AGL that has a Coal power Power station that they want to close or sell because the demand is not there to keep it open. The Government has urged them to keep it open and not sell it.
If your in Vic, take advantage of your state governments new incentives to get solar while it lasts before they remove the STC rebate.
Hopefully one day all the power stations and governments get their act together and the price of these consumables become affordable


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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on September 06, 2018, 01:56:59 PM
Quote from: BC66
Where I work we sell solar systems
so... do tell :)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: BC66 on September 06, 2018, 02:02:11 PM
so... do tell :)

We are wholesalers , are you an installer or have a solar business ?



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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: wada4wd on September 06, 2018, 02:30:48 PM
I never said that solar was destroying power companies so using my quote with that is putting words in my mouth.
I think it’s AGL that has a Coal power Power station that they want to close or sell because the demand is not there to keep it open. The Government has urged them to keep it open and not sell it.
If your in Vic, take advantage of your state governments new incentives to get solar while it lasts before they remove the STC rebate.
Hopefully one day all the power stations and governments get their act together and the price of these consumables become affordable

Hi.

What you said was:

Quote
Where I work we sell solar systems and I have a direct connection with the power companies as part of my role here as I’m a contracted supplier for their sub stations so I have a little bit of an idea of the big picture and not the propaganda the public is told.
Basically you can’t keep a fully stocked farm running at the same price for a litre of milk when most of your customers now own their own cow

Maybe you meant to say something else, but I read it and you seem to think that people with solar panels on their house is 'can’t keep a fully stocked farm running at the same price'

Just explain what you mean rather than talking about milk bottles.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: wada4wd on September 06, 2018, 02:39:01 PM
I think it’s AGL that has a Coal power Power station that they want to close or sell because the demand is not there to keep it open. The Government has urged them to keep it open and not sell it.

The plant is Liddell. It is 50 years old and is dying. AGL has decided to close it down rather than waste money trying to repair an old dying coal station.

It's not about power demand, it's about waste of maintaining an old power station.

https://www.afr.com/business/energy/electricity/the-fight-about-agls-liddell-power-station-explained-20180409-h0yju5 (https://www.afr.com/business/energy/electricity/the-fight-about-agls-liddell-power-station-explained-20180409-h0yju5)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: BC66 on September 06, 2018, 03:09:29 PM
Hi.

What you said was:

Maybe you meant to say something else, but I read it and you seem to think that people with solar panels on their house is 'can’t keep a fully stocked farm running at the same price'

Just explain what you mean rather than talking about milk bottles.
Farms = power stations
Huge costs to run and maintain power stations
Demand is going down because more people are going to alternative power
Those who still need power from power stations will pay more as profits have gone down through less sales of power yet costs.

And at a webinar that I watched recently from the Clean Energy Council. It was stated that the Federal Gov has urged that they keep Liddell open

All I’m trying to do is help explain why electricity costs are rising when I too thought that with all the solar around that maybe my electricity costs would go down.
But turns out that was a dream


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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on September 06, 2018, 03:17:01 PM
Quote from: BC66
We are wholesalers , are you an installer or have a solar business ?
No but if I installed 1x 120w panel on my trailer :D
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: BC66 on September 06, 2018, 03:49:00 PM
No but if I installed 1x 120w panel on my trailer :D
Sorry we don’t have panels that small, we have house panels and the smallest is 275 watt and 30 volts which is what’s used on houses


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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on September 06, 2018, 03:52:59 PM
Quote from: BC66
Sorry we don’t have panels that small, we have house panels and the smallest is 275 watt and 30 volts which is what’s used on houses
thats what I'd love to setup on the house!!

I meant my installer experience was on a trailer :P
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: BC66 on September 06, 2018, 04:00:17 PM
thats what I'd love to setup on the house!!

I meant my installer experience was on a trailer :P
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: wada4wd on September 06, 2018, 04:29:59 PM
https://www.aemo.com.au/-/media/Files/Electricity/NEM/Planning_and_Forecasting/EFI/2017-Electricity-Forecasting-Insights.pdf (https://www.aemo.com.au/-/media/Files/Electricity/NEM/Planning_and_Forecasting/EFI/2017-Electricity-Forecasting-Insights.pdf)

(https://s15.postimg.cc/r4c5pqfi3/Annual_Power_Consumption.jpg)

Businesses use about at least double of the households electricity consumption.

Walk around the city and see how much is wasted. If they had the same kw cost as the households they would reduce the waste of power consumption. Customers have to pay for the services including the cost of power.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on September 06, 2018, 08:30:36 PM
The plant is Liddell. It is 50 years old and is dying. AGL has decided to close it down rather than waste money trying to repair an old dying coal station.

It's not about power demand, it's about waste of maintaining an old power station.

https://www.afr.com/business/energy/electricity/the-fight-about-agls-liddell-power-station-explained-20180409-h0yju5 (https://www.afr.com/business/energy/electricity/the-fight-about-agls-liddell-power-station-explained-20180409-h0yju5)

It may be old, but still has an estimated 10yrs left. AGL has been offered MONEY to buy it, but so far has declined.
If it closes it before it's lifespan, it gets nothing, so I'd say there certainly is an agenda to close it early. And it will certainly not be one to benifit the consumer...
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: briann532 on September 06, 2018, 08:44:12 PM
It may be old, but still has an estimated 10yrs left. AGL has been offered MONEY to buy it, but so far has declined.
If it closes it before it's lifespan, it gets nothing, so I'd say there certainly is an agenda to close it early. And it will certainly not be one to benifit the consumer...

AGL wouldn't want it to run.
Once less station means more demand which means higher prices which then equates to more profit.

Supply and demand. AGL run a business and do not care about anything but money.
Google Dalton power plant or the plant up in the hunter to see the lies and bribes and manipulation they get away with.
The fines they pay for it are a pittance to them so they keep going.

Money money money. Nothing else.

Snowy hydro does work, will work and can be done again elsewhere. Now why don't these pollies have any of that old school foresight?
Oh that's right, buying votes to line pockets. Money money money, here we go again.

Yep, I'm cynical, I hate the buggers. There are feasible solutions but no one is willing to do it.

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Mitch92 on September 06, 2018, 11:07:48 PM
AGL and Liddel is why privatisation of power stations and distribution networks is bad.

At the end of the day, regardless of what we want to think or feel, a private company is not there to be our friend, they are there for money. We can't expect them to stay open, nor be suprised at them closing, if they feel that they can't make a sufficient profit from it.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: BC66 on September 06, 2018, 11:17:47 PM
Part of the company I work for is developing a wave generator with the CSIRO that bobs around in the ocean and it’s natural movement generates power. Should be interesting to see how these go.
There are also other experimental energy sources like a kinetic flywheel that is perpetual and once wound up and released continues to spin one direction till the spring is unwound then spins in the opposite direction.
These have basically an endless life generating power and all you have to do is wind it up and let it go
Each fly wheel literally weighs a ton and spins at high rpm so they have to be buried deep Incase of explosion
The future is full of new things and eventually power stations will be a thing of the past.

There is a new housing estate being built out at Gatton and every home will have its own off grid power system.
How cool is that !


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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on September 07, 2018, 01:15:59 AM


There is a new housing estate being built out at Gatton and every home will have its own off grid power system.
How cool is that !


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Certainly would be cool...
So the homes have solar panels, batteries and a backup generator.......just like a lot of remote houses have been doing for 20yrs.
But for people who like to run a pool pump, have ducted aircon etc, there are limitations..
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: prodigyrf on September 07, 2018, 03:04:26 AM
Part of the company I work for is developing a wave generator with the CSIRO that bobs around in the ocean and it’s natural movement generates power. Should be interesting to see how these go.


Another company harvesting our taxes again for no benefit?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-17/oceanlinx-generator-stranded-as-court-proceedings-continue/8529602 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-17/oceanlinx-generator-stranded-as-court-proceedings-continue/8529602)
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-05-17/huge-swell-sinks-wave-energy-generator/829282 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-05-17/huge-swell-sinks-wave-energy-generator/829282)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Rumpig on September 07, 2018, 05:46:57 AM
Part of the company I work for is developing a wave generator with the CSIRO that bobs around in the ocean and it’s natural movement generates power. Should be interesting to see how these go.
Sister in-laws father is (or was atleast) an engineer for Queensland water and he had a fair bit to do with the hydro set up in Wivenhoe dam, he told me years ago they were looking at wave generation (at least 5 years ago I reckon), but the biggest issue they faced was they couldn't be to far offshore and nobody wants to see that stuff out front of their waterfront views. He went overseas somewhere checking out various forms of power generation, things like molten salt farms were being considered for example also.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on September 07, 2018, 08:35:34 AM
Quote from: BC66
There is a new housing estate being built out at Gatton and every home will have its own off grid power system.
How cool is that !
pretty good forward thinking I reckon! Just as long as they spec it up enough for all toys...

thats one thing thats put me off - too many stories of people being sold setups that are not big enough :(
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Paddler Ed on September 07, 2018, 09:28:42 AM
pretty good forward thinking I reckon! Just as long as they spec it up enough for all toys...

thats one thing thats put me off - too many stories of people being sold setups that are not big enough :(

That's the other side - how much can we cut consumption at a household level? There's no point in running inefficient old things (says the person who is daily driving a HJ45 Land Cruiser at the moment) that chew through power, nor is there a need for every house to have reverse cycle air con if we design them better... Our little shed house doesn't have air con, whereas our unit in town did... have we missed it? Not really, we get the morning sun in the winter streaming into the house, so that's nice and warm, and even on a cloudy and cool day, the house isn't too cold. Likewise in summer, the windows are generally set for the prevailing wind and therefore it cools it nicely. The best upgrade for our place would probably be double glazing, as that would trap in the internal temperature that bit more (one of the things I miss from the UK... my parent's old house built in the mid 1980's had it, and they've fitted it to the current house which was built in the 1830's and is in a heritage protected area so external modifications have to be approved)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on September 07, 2018, 09:40:12 AM
Part of the company I work for is developing a wave generator with the CSIRO that bobs around in the ocean and it’s natural movement generates power. Should be interesting to see how these go.
I remember first seeing information about CETO wave generation about 10 years ago, looked like a fantastic idea, obviously still working through issues though and it is a fairly simple concept so obviously not a simple exercise https://youtu.be/xNYR4ZIyOZc


There are also other experimental energy sources like a kinetic flywheel that is perpetual and once wound up and released continues to spin one direction till the spring is unwound then spins in the opposite direction.
These have basically an endless life generating power and all you have to do is wind it up and let it go
Each fly wheel literally weighs a ton and spins at high rpm so they have to be buried deep Incase of explosion
The future is full of new things and eventually power stations will be a thing of the past.

I wouldn't be holding your breath for anything perpetual, there is a little thing called the laws of thermodynamics that are pretty significant https://youtu.be/A-QgGXbDyR0



Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on September 07, 2018, 10:12:01 AM
Quote from: Paddler Ed
That's the other side - how much can we cut consumption at a household level? There's no point in running inefficient old things (says the person who is daily driving a HJ45 Land Cruiser at the moment) that chew through power
Too true, there are ways and means of saving power...
Mate of mine had a master power switch wired up at his house, where it turns everything off except the fridge when he leave for work. Nothing on standby, no clocks, no nothing.


But how many people can afford to throw out good working whitegoods just to save few bux a year? Fridge, washing machine, freezer, dryer, TV's etc videos etc.. theres 10,000+
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: BC66 on September 07, 2018, 10:17:37 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180907/16f8b0c4541043d4a96e0541d161be83.jpg)
We are playing with this at work atm
It’s a lithium battery back up that connects to any house either with solar or without.
Think of it as a UPS with 10kw of storage.
It can provide power back into your house to supply in peak times and it has a critical load port so in case of a power outage , you can keep things like fridges running.
It’s pretty cool and easy to adapt to your current set up


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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: BC66 on September 07, 2018, 10:22:08 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180907/25f85ac339653d4ee75235abf32b9724.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180907/ec6cd67b44710f65f9e801cf1d9aea19.jpg)


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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Paddler Ed on September 07, 2018, 10:31:24 AM
But how many people can afford to throw out good working whitegoods just to save few bux a year? Fridge, washing machine, freezer, dryer, TV's etc videos etc.. theres 10,000+

More looking at the power consumption to begin with - some of the funky looking things are woefully power inefficient, and that really needs to be explained more at the time of purchase.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Fizzie on September 07, 2018, 12:55:11 PM
Too true, there are ways and means of saving power...
Mate of mine had a master power switch wired up at his house, where it turns everything off except the fridge when he leave for work. Nothing on standby, no clocks, no nothing.


But how many people can afford to throw out good working whitegoods just to save few bux a year? Fridge, washing machine, freezer, dryer, TV's etc videos etc.. theres 10,000+

I'd spend so much time going around the house resetting clocks every arvo that it wouldn't be worth while!

I'd also wonder if he's actually saving anything, once you take into account the cost of having the switch fitted ??? We've got solar & from checking meter readings when we go away, I know the basic things left running in the house - 2 fridges, 1 freezer & various clocks - use between 5 & 7 KwH / day, made up of roughly half each solar & grid, so that's well & truly <$1 / day! :D
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Cruiser 105Tvan on September 07, 2018, 01:23:43 PM
Clocks don't have to be connected to the Mains.
You can get 12 to 24 Months out of a AA Battery.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Paddler Ed on September 07, 2018, 03:29:37 PM
I'd spend so much time going around the house resetting clocks every arvo that it wouldn't be worth while!

I'd also wonder if he's actually saving anything, once you take into account the cost of having the switch fitted ??? We've got solar & from checking meter readings when we go away, I know the basic things left running in the house - 2 fridges, 1 freezer & various clocks - use between 5 & 7 KwH / day, made up of roughly half each solar & grid, so that's well & truly <$1 / day! :D

Turning (nearly) everything off when we are out and overnight resulted in about a 10% drop in power use - brings us under 5KWH/day for 2 of us.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on September 07, 2018, 03:45:08 PM
Quote from: Cruiser 105Tvan
Clocks don't have to be connected to the Mains.

Does anyone use clocks round the house anymore?? I just use my fone.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Paddler Ed on September 07, 2018, 03:52:56 PM
Does anyone use clocks round the house anymore?? I just use my fone.

Yep, have a clock in the kitchen/lounge and still wear a watch. Dog also tells me when it's 6pm (dinner time)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: prodigyrf on September 07, 2018, 07:24:44 PM
The really big picture problem is the lack of level playing field for power generators and its impact on the national grid and how so? Well you may believe in taxing a colourless, odourless gaseous plant food because it makes sense like taxing biz on the size of their payrolls among other necessities, but that should apply equally to all generators- ie not just the ongoing emissions but the emissions of any inputs for the whole of life cycle of the generator. But there's a more glaring omission than that with the current RECs and various imposts on thermal generators that are being handed directly to the owners of wind turbines, solar panels and sundry tax-eating brainwaves like geothermal and sinking wave generators (Gummints shouldn't try and pick winners). There's only a level playing field marketplace if the electrons are also dispatchable and reliable.

Well that's far from the case with unreliables like wind generation and as many campers here would know with solar panels. What's been happening is deliberately subsidised wind and solar have been bludging on thermal generators to insure their lack of reliability, thereby not paying them their just insurance premia and sending them to the wall as a result. There's a fallacy of composition going on there, that it can continue unabated without heading for a communal grid train wreck in terms of reliable voltage and frequency at the flick of a switch. The only way to level that playing field is to legislate that no tenderer of electrons to the national grid can tender any more power than they can reasonably guarantee (ie short of unforeseen mechanical failure) 24/7 all year round. That way these unreliables would either have to invest in storage to lift their average tender capability, or partner with thermal generators and pay them their required premia  in order to do that, or some combination of the two. You can't guarantee a certain level of power anytime it's required then you get to keep the electrons until you can.

But that's the political problem for all those who believed we could run a modern economy on fickle electrons. They'd have to fess up they got it wrong and where's the political leadership with the cohones to tell all the mums and dads with rooftop solar that if you can't guarantee reliable 24/7 electrons to your communal neighbours you can keep them. That's the real political problem as we head for a train wreck with a national power grid unless we all wake up to the fact we need dispatchable, reliable electrons and not just those at the whims of wind and sun where it's feast or famine. Besides with all the cross subsidies and disperse transmission and voltage and frequency controls, they're proving to be very expensive, fickle electrons anyway. 
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on September 08, 2018, 02:03:39 AM
Does anyone use clocks round the house anymore?? I just use my fone.

Yep.....one in the microwave, the wall oven, one on the wall (batt operated ), the clock radio beside the bed.....on screen of the 2 home phones......plus the 2 mobiles.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Rumpig on September 08, 2018, 08:52:12 AM
Does anyone use clocks round the house anymore?? I just use my fone.
clock is seen on the tv when it's on by hitting the info button on the remote, there's one beside my bed I look at when I go to bed and wake up (but that's about all it's used for, the misses uses her phone since her alarm clock died), the microwave clock is never set to the right time, our new stove has a clock on it my daughter set the right time on (handy to see, though not looked at heaps)....other then that we just use our phones also.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: prodigyrf on September 08, 2018, 10:34:19 AM
'Scott Morrison has declared the national energy guarantee “dead” and will seek endorsement from cabinet to tear up the Paris emissions target legislation when it meets formally for the first time on Monday, as the new Prime Minister moves to stamp his authority over a new policy direction for the government.
“The NEG is dead, long live ­reliability guarantee, long live default prices, long live backing new power generation,” Mr Morrison said in an interview with The Weekend Australian.' (today)

 Perhaps ScoMo is looking back at the history of predecessors and deciding it's now or never to differentiate himself from Labor and the Greens and what the Hell has he got to lose with the polls the way they are. We're about to live in interesting times  ;D
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on September 08, 2018, 11:02:16 AM
'Scott Morrison has declared the national energy guarantee “dead” and will seek endorsement from cabinet to tear up the Paris emissions target legislation when it meets formally for the first time on Monday, as the new Prime Minister moves to stamp his authority over a new policy direction for the government.
“The NEG is dead, long live ­reliability guarantee, long live default prices, long live backing new power generation,” Mr Morrison said in an interview with The Weekend Australian.' (today)

 Perhaps ScoMo is looking back at the history of predecessors and deciding it's now or never to differentiate himself from Labor and the Greens and what the Hell has he got to lose with the polls the way they are. We're about to live in interesting times ;D

He,s just feeding the sheep what they want to hear...
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on September 08, 2018, 12:17:15 PM
I haven't really looked into the policies and lack thereof regarding power generation, but two general themes from renewable advocates seem to be contradictory, one is that renewables are now the cheapest form of new generation, the other is that renewables are being back by a lack of legislative certainty.

Surely if the first point is true, the government has backed it's chosen outcome until it has become inevitable, it would be better for them to step back and let the market decide the most economical way to transition and not keep forking over money (predominantly to large corporations) with little outcome to show for it. The only argument for them to continue is that a slightly quicker and far more expensive option is better.

There is still a role to play for them in ensuring the reliability of the network but is there much value in still throwing money after specific subsidies when it's not going to change much?

It seems like ScoMo might be taking an economically sensible approach here, the big question will be how good of a salesman he can be though.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on September 08, 2018, 03:04:49 PM
What the renewable crowd don't get is the basics of how a country uses power.

Say a tooth fairy dropped 6000 windmills and 500,000 solar panels out of the sky, and we had them all up and running in a month......and they were producing 100% of the power we currently use.......

How do we cook and watch tellie of a night time ??     Solve that and we are getting close to achieving a new era of power !!
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: paceman on September 08, 2018, 03:34:51 PM
He,s just feeding the sheep what they want to hear...

What the ‘sheep’ want to hear is common sense...

Which this seems to be heading towards...

Completely disregarding coal as a viable source of reliable, plentiful and cheap power is ridiculous.

Maybe the ‘sheep’ are sick of being fed halfhearted promises about cheap renewable energy that can magically solve our power issues.

I don’t care where my power comes from, as long as it is cheap, plentiful and reliable.


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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: wada4wd on September 08, 2018, 04:29:34 PM
What the renewable crowd don't get is the basics of how a country uses power.

Say a tooth fairy dropped 6000 windmills and 500,000 solar panels out of the sky, and we had them all up and running in a month......and they were producing 100% of the power we currently use.......

How do we cook and watch tellie of a night time ??     Solve that and we are getting close to achieving a new era of power !!

If we replaced the coal and gas system with renewable, it would be done correctly. We have to do it anyway over time.

Wind power runs by the wind, not only over daytime. So it isn't the same as solar.

So, without coal and gas, we would run solar/wind/hydro/etc and run them with adequate battery system to allow the system to run when the sun is out and the wind isn't running.

Port Augusta is starting to build a large solar system: https://reneweconomy.com.au/aurora-what-you-should-know-about-port-augustas-solar-power-tower-86715/

Quote
A field of billboard-sized computer-controlled mirrors (100m2 heliostats) follow the sun and reflect sunlight onto a target at the top of a 227m tower, where the equivalent of 1200 suns heats up a molten salt — not table salt, but an inert mixture of sodium nitrate and potassium nitrate, traditionally used as garden fertiliser.

According to SolarReserve, the initial melting of the salt is a one-time process, after which the liquid salt is recirculated and used for the 40+ year life of the plant – without any degradation, or the need for replacement or topping up. Temporary equipment is brought on-site during plant commissioning to melt the salt, which is later removed after the process is completed.

Just to put a rumour to rest, no natural gas or other fuel is required for power generation, and the plant will have no pipeline feed.

Molten salt starts in the ‘cold’ storage tank at 288°C and is circulated up to the ‘receiver’ — a set of 14 panels of tube walls arranged into a cylindrical vessel approximately 30m high and 20m wide — heating the salt to 565°C. The heated salt then descends the tower and is stored in the ‘hot’ storage tank.

When power is required, the heated salt is pumped through a heat exchanger to transfer the heat energy from the salt to water in order to generate high temperature/pressure steam which is then run through a standard steam turbine generator, not unlike the turbines in many thermal power stations.

That is only one plant. If we want to move forward there are many options other than burning coal and continuing to wrecking the environment.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on September 08, 2018, 06:06:05 PM
As I said above, we haven't got a solution yet. Maybe in time, but alluding to the tooth fairy scenario, we haven't got anywhere near the capability to produce power overnight without coal or gas.  Wind is unreliable of a night time, and can be during the day, and hydro is miniscule for our needs......and battery backup is almost non existant.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: GeoffA on September 08, 2018, 06:19:30 PM
If we replaced the coal and gas system with renewable, it would be done correctly. We have to do it anyway over time.

Wind power runs by the wind, not only over daytime. So it isn't the same as solar.

So, without coal and gas, we would run solar/wind/hydro/etc and run them with adequate battery system to allow the system to run when the sun is out and the wind isn't running.

Port Augusta is starting to build a large solar system: https://reneweconomy.com.au/aurora-what-you-should-know-about-port-augustas-solar-power-tower-86715/

That is only one plant. If we want to move forward there are many options other than burning coal and continuing to wrecking the environment.

I find it amusing when people support batteries as a valid option, but denounce burning coal as wrecking the environment.

Batteries are NOT green....
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on September 08, 2018, 06:25:26 PM
I find it amusing when people support batteries as a valid option, but denounce burning coal as wrecking the environment.

Batteries are NOT green....

I find it amusing that thousands have died from coal related illness,s but not many from batteries..
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: GeoffA on September 08, 2018, 06:28:42 PM
I find it amusing that thousands have died from coal related illness,s but not many from batteries..

...yet...

I repeat, batteries are NOT green....
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: alnjan on September 08, 2018, 06:45:18 PM
I find it amusing when people support batteries as a valid option, but denounce burning coal as wrecking the environment.

Batteries are NOT green....

They're not renewable either.  Lithium mines look just as 'bad' as any other open cut mine.   
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: glenm64 on September 08, 2018, 06:47:47 PM
You need to differentiate between current (mainly coal fired) power generation and new investment in power generation.
No one, I think, is arguing to close all coal fired generators.
The dilemma capital investors have is they have no clear government policy direction for them to make long term investment decisions. Hence their reluctance to build any new stations, which is our biggest problem.

Refurbishment of old coal fired power stations is very expensive and not cost effective. After spending $300million on 50 year old Muja here in WA they gave up, and decided to close it.
When people compare electricity generation in $ per Mwh they quote 30 - 50 year old coal fired power stations against new build wind and solar.
Coal is cheaper in this comparison ($40 Mwh) compared to wind($60-70 Mwh)
But with 8 old coal fired power stations closed between 2012 and 2016, and more pending, it is putting more pressure on old infrastructure.
If you start to compare new build power stations, coal ($75 Mwh) starts to lose it cost advantage.
https://theconversation.com/factcheck-qanda-is-coal-still-cheaper-than-renewables-as-an-energy-source-81263

Solar now costs 50 USD Mwh to produce, so is cost comparative to new build coal, but not inclusive of storage costs for non generation periods.
Its hard to get real costs for Australia due to feed in tariffs, rebates and renewable target offsets.
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/solar-power-cost-decrease-2018-5?r=US&IR=T

Like all markets, scale of economy are reducing the costs of renewables as they develop.
Port Augusta's solar thermal power station is contracted to have a maximum cost of $78 Mwh.
Its easy to ridicule the SA government, saying they will have the highest energy prices in Australia, but new power stations must be built, and it has cost parity with new build coal fired power stations. They are locking in energy security which is what all of Australia needs to do.
Unfortunately Australia as a nation is getting sucked into playing the party politic based arguments, which are all short term (election) focused.
What we need is immediate investment in new build power generation, that have competitive costs. New builds can take anywhere up to 5 - 8 years to complete, but we dont have much longer before we have a critical energy vulnerability.

Within a decade, around half of Australia's coal fired power stations will be over 40years old, with some current operating stations approaching 60 years, all using obsolete technology.
75% of coal fired power stations are operating beyond their original design life.
Not worried? You should be!

Cheers Glen

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on September 08, 2018, 07:11:34 PM
Lithium mines look just as 'bad' as any other open cut mine.

Technically true, but the edit vast majority of lithium doesn't come from open cut mines. crossed out as no longer the case
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on September 08, 2018, 07:17:56 PM
They're not renewable either.  Lithium mines look just as 'bad' as any other open cut mine.

No they are not renewable but they are recyclable.  Coal is not either.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: alnjan on September 08, 2018, 07:46:21 PM
Technically true, but the vast majority of lithium doesn't come from open cut mines.


From what I was reading the increased demand for lithium has found the evaporation method of extracting lithium is not keeping up to demand, hence the recent and rapid expansion of the open cut mining of lithium which is over taking the supply of the previous evaporation method.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on September 08, 2018, 08:24:17 PM

From what I was reading the increased demand for lithium has found the evaporation method of extracting lithium is not keeping up to demand, hence the recent and rapid expansion of the open cut mining of lithium which is over taking the supply of the previous evaporation method.

Looks like you are probably right, what I was reading was from a few years ago but looks like as demand has skyrocketed that has been mostly met  by open cut which is where the majority now comes from.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: alnjan on September 08, 2018, 08:43:51 PM
Looks like you are probably right, what I was reading was from a few years ago but looks like as demand has skyrocketed that has been mostly met  by open cut which is where the majority now comes from.

Yeah, demand and money.    Some of the mines are just as large with an environmental impact as any other open cut mine
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on September 09, 2018, 04:05:21 AM
I find it amusing that thousands have died from coal related illness,s but not many from batteries..

Not in this country.....apart from perhaps 5 or 10 from dust related disease that has come to light.....that should have never happened in this  enlightened age.....the only deaths  that I've ever heard of have been accidents,, which although it is a dangerous occupation, mostly could have been avoided as well.

Same as the  towns that are at risk from coal dust near a power station....I live close by one such town and there has never been any data or a suggestion of illness related to coal dust.......and not suggesting there is anything good about coal dust.......but it's not like the beatup that the greenies make out.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: briann532 on September 09, 2018, 03:41:31 PM
I find it amusing when people support batteries as a valid option, but denounce burning coal as wrecking the environment.

Batteries are NOT green....

This one is

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjEt73Gmq3dAhWYHXAKHSGWD5kQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.indiamart.com%2Fproddetail%2Fluminous-solar-battery-15940449962.html&psig=AOvVaw0L7px8RqW6bYSVD3G7QwYr&ust=1536557926388183 (https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjEt73Gmq3dAhWYHXAKHSGWD5kQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.indiamart.com%2Fproddetail%2Fluminous-solar-battery-15940449962.html&psig=AOvVaw0L7px8RqW6bYSVD3G7QwYr&ust=1536557926388183)

 ;D ;D ;D

Just kidding.....
I agree with you and I install the damn things!!!
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: GeoffA on September 09, 2018, 07:14:04 PM
This one is

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjEt73Gmq3dAhWYHXAKHSGWD5kQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.indiamart.com%2Fproddetail%2Fluminous-solar-battery-15940449962.html&psig=AOvVaw0L7px8RqW6bYSVD3G7QwYr&ust=1536557926388183 (https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjEt73Gmq3dAhWYHXAKHSGWD5kQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.indiamart.com%2Fproddetail%2Fluminous-solar-battery-15940449962.html&psig=AOvVaw0L7px8RqW6bYSVD3G7QwYr&ust=1536557926388183)

 ;D ;D ;D

Just kidding.....
I agree with you and I install the damn things!!!

 :cup: :cup:

Yeah, I've been waiting for it. I'd do it too..... ;D ;D
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on September 11, 2018, 11:23:41 AM
interesting
https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/labor-offers-a-4838-battery-bonanza-for-homes-with-solar-panels-20180910-p502wc.html (https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/labor-offers-a-4838-battery-bonanza-for-homes-with-solar-panels-20180910-p502wc.html)

must be an election coming, the manure is flowing and the millions are being found left right and ...
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Rodt on September 11, 2018, 12:59:43 PM
able to claim half the cost – up to $4838   :o

F**k me how much do these batteries cost?
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on September 11, 2018, 02:39:41 PM
Quote from: Rodt
able to claim half the cost – up to $4838   :o

F**k me how much do these batteries cost?
from what I've read... that wont get you much battery.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: plusnq on September 11, 2018, 03:33:19 PM
from what I've read... that wont get you much battery.

It’s about right https://www.solarchoice.net.au/blog/battery-storage-price-index-august-2018/ (https://www.solarchoice.net.au/blog/battery-storage-price-index-august-2018/)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on September 11, 2018, 03:43:59 PM
It’s about right https://www.solarchoice.net.au/blog/battery-storage-price-index-august-2018/ (https://www.solarchoice.net.au/blog/battery-storage-price-index-august-2018/)
yea for min spec.. I have no idea what most people would need, but I cant see Gov Co giving anything decent to the lemmings.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: BC66 on September 11, 2018, 04:34:51 PM
To work out the size of your battery needs , get a power meter and connect to your house to measure what you would typically use over night.
Power meters are relatively cheap.
https://reductionrevolution.com.au/products/efergy-elite-classic-wireless-energy-monitor?utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=googlepla&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIxNy6samy3QIVl6DsCh3iRQ4MEAQYAiABEgK60vD_BwE
Measure your power usage from 3.30pm to 8.30 am to get an idea of how much your spending each night.
The average home with Mum dad and a few kids will need around 10kw of battery storage.
This will provide power to the home at night and then recharge during the day. Once charged your system will export to the grid. If you run out of power at night, it will switch back to the grid till the batteries are ready again.
They also have EPPS which is emergency power for black outs so things like fridges and maybe a few lights will still operate till power is restored. Now these are not going to make your house off grid, that’s another and more expensive story


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: BC66 on September 11, 2018, 04:36:08 PM
Oh and I just discovered my Home UPS uses 200 watts of power 24/7. That works out to be costing us $184 per quarter and is about to be unplugged !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on September 11, 2018, 04:49:43 PM
Oh and I just discovered my Home UPS uses 200 watts of power 24/7. That works out to be costing us $184 per quarter and is about to be unplugged !
what UPS is it ???
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: BC66 on September 11, 2018, 05:20:59 PM
what UPS is it ???
Some old Upsonic Power 1000va thingy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: briann532 on September 11, 2018, 05:53:14 PM
able to claim half the cost – up to $4838   :o

F**k me how much do these batteries cost?

I recently installed a Fronius battery setup for a client.

$27,600 just for the battery setup, he already had the solar side of things...…………

 ??? ??? ??? Yep, he was happy and couldn't pay fast enough.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: GeoffA on September 11, 2018, 06:16:34 PM
interesting
https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/labor-offers-a-4838-battery-bonanza-for-homes-with-solar-panels-20180910-p502wc.html (https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/labor-offers-a-4838-battery-bonanza-for-homes-with-solar-panels-20180910-p502wc.html)

must be an election coming, the manure is flowing and the millions are being found left right and ...

.....and the brunt of the bill will be felt by those who can least afford it, and those not in a position to take advantage of the scheme....
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on September 11, 2018, 06:20:41 PM
.....and the brunt of the bill will be felt by those who can least afford it, and those not in a position to take advantage of the scheme....
exactly.... If I had a spare $20,000 layin round I'd be in like flynn with batteries, panels the works.


also I dont know how true, those pumping back into the grid - if they need to draw from the grid they pay more than everyone else?
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Cruiser 105Tvan on September 11, 2018, 06:46:36 PM
exactly.... If I had a spare $20,000 layin round I'd be in like flynn with batteries, panels the works.

Also, I dont know how true, those pumping back into the grid - if they need to draw from the grid they pay more than everyone else?

Be like when they introduced Domestic Solar Systems.
The people that purchased systems were faced with a very confusing set of rates and charges and were told they had to stay connected to the grid.
Some benefited, some didn't.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: prodigyrf on October 04, 2018, 05:20:04 PM
I see our PM in waiting has had an epiphany on drilling for gas-
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/offshore-gas-worth-considering-shorten/ar-BBNTZJE (https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/offshore-gas-worth-considering-shorten/ar-BBNTZJE)
He doesn't want to tell Mr Andrews how to run things but here have an elbow in the ribs mate as it could well be the buck stops with me soon inheriting the national grid fast heading for a train wreck as we keep retiring and blowing up thermal power stations.

But here's some quick maths for the wind and battery fans now the Liberal Gummint have released the Whetherill Gummint's hush hush costing on the Hornsdale wind farm with Telsla's big battery (the 9 diesel gennys we'll forget about). $90 million for 100MW of installed capacity but at best wind farms only average 30% of installed capacity so that means an investment cost of $3000 per kilowatt before running costs and depreciation. Now my power bill shows average kwhrs/day for various households to compare against and for household of 4 they reckon 17.8 kw/day average so that wind and battery would need to invest 17.8 times $3000 or $53400 to keep the household running. Well at 5% interest that's $2670 a year mum dad and the 2 kids have to stump up in interest before any running costs and depreciation- ie paying back the $53,400 before it's rinse repeat.


But that isn't the end of the matter because Germany's lead with Energiewinde is in deep trouble as the Federal Audit Officenotes-
http://www.thegwpf.com/germany-risks-complete-loss-of-control-of-energiewende-federal-audit-office-warns/ (http://www.thegwpf.com/germany-risks-complete-loss-of-control-of-energiewende-federal-audit-office-warns/)
That's because research shows that all their copious wind turbines only save around 8% of their installed capacity which is not hard to appreciate here in Australia too when you look at our typical wind output graph-
https://anero.id/energy/wind-energy/2018/june (https://anero.id/energy/wind-energy/2018/june)

So if the Hornsdale facility could only guarantee say 10% of its installed capacity 24/7 at present then you can see those above figures get multiplied by 3 for the investment for our 4 person household and yowzah! Basically you aint seen nothing yet if we're all to enjoy that 'free' energy from Gaia and get rid of fossil fuels altogether but that's probably where Bill is coming from as the penny drops he could well be inheriting this out of control pipe dream from Green technical and economic illiterates.



Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Poita on October 05, 2018, 11:12:57 PM
https://reneweconomy.com.au/tesla-big-battery-claims-its-first-major-fossil-fuel-victim-30614/
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on October 06, 2018, 07:50:06 AM
https://reneweconomy.com.au/tesla-big-battery-claims-its-first-major-fossil-fuel-victim-30614/ (https://reneweconomy.com.au/tesla-big-battery-claims-its-first-major-fossil-fuel-victim-30614/)


I read that as well a week ago...Interesting.

I also read an article on lithium batteries. It stated that that there are 38 minerals required to make a lithium battery.  All of which are found in Australia.  How frickin hard could it be to actually have the govt invest in companies (like they do with many millions of dollars for their future funds) and manufacture the things here?  It is estimated that the actual cost could drop by over 90% within 15 years. Limit our valuable resources as to what goes over seas and require the bigger percentage to be used in manufacturing here in Oz..  This should also apply to other natural resources.  Biggest problem is that we live in a "I want it now society".  In 50 years we will have lost most of our natural resources and our grandkids are going to wonder why the old folk were such idiots and greedy pricks for killing off the land  as well as its fauna and flora.

LINK TO ELECTRIC VEHICLES AND BATTERIES..

https://stockhead.com.au/tech/battery-prices-are-plunging-and-that-could-drive-an-electric-car-industry-in-australia/ (https://stockhead.com.au/tech/battery-prices-are-plunging-and-that-could-drive-an-electric-car-industry-in-australia/)

It doesn't matter how many positive posts about renewable energies are posted on here (and I believe the future is definitely with renewables) there will be dinosaurs who prefer to bury their heads in the sand...

Here is a link as to how renewable is saving Port Augusta in S.A.  ...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-05/port-augusta-becomes-australian-renewable-energy-hub/10338812 (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-05/port-augusta-becomes-australian-renewable-energy-hub/10338812)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: prodigyrf on October 14, 2018, 12:46:37 AM
The Tesla battery at Hornsdale is making money hand over fist as a first adopter creaming the top of the FCAS market which of itself has been created by a plethora of fickle wind and solar power being added to the grid all over the place. You need to understand how the FCAS market has been set up in answer to that rising problem here-
http://ceem.unsw.edu.au/sites/default/files/documents/WIW13_Riesz-FCAS-2013-09-02a.pdf (http://ceem.unsw.edu.au/sites/default/files/documents/WIW13_Riesz-FCAS-2013-09-02a.pdf)
The AEMO is also attempting to make addons pay somewhat for their marginal loss factors too in that regard-
https://reneweconomy.com.au/solar-wind-farms-hit-as-aemo-slashes-output-calculations-18481/ (https://reneweconomy.com.au/solar-wind-farms-hit-as-aemo-slashes-output-calculations-18481/)

In that respect both Origin Energy and AGL have only just spoken up with their concerns about adding more and more 'unfirm' power as they refer to these unreliables, which they themselves have been engaged in. What they're concerned about is increasing grid instability with the demise of large centralised thermal power stations that supply spinning inertia to the system and the fallacy of composition problem as they disappear and more and more fickle electrons are added to the grid.

In that respect what really should have happened with the move to renewables was a level playing field right from the start. ie no supplier of electrons to the communal grid should be allowed to tender any more than they can reasonably guarantee (ie short of unforeseen mechanical failure) 24/7 all year round. That way solar and wind would have to invest in storage to up their average tender or else partner with thermal generators and pay them their just insurance premia or some combination of the two. The problem now is political and who's got the guts to tell it like it is that if you can't guarantee your electrons you can keep them. That certainly won't go down well with the mums and dads with rooftop solar and they know Tesla Powerwalls don't stack up added to their panels.

That level playing field never happened and hence when the SA Labor Govt were faced with the growing prospect of cascading blackouts over summer they rushed out the Tesla battery and 9 diesel gennys that could consume 80,000litres of diesel an hour so you get the picture. While the Tesla battery is currently very useful at supplying FCAS at a moment's notice and making a big earn in the process that sort of investment is really needed for ALL solar and wind in order to provide stable reliable power on tap. It's very expensive though and we haven't paid for that yet and already SA joins the dearest world power price club and for those of you who think battery prices are coming down and we're all going to jump into EVs in future BMW have some unpleasant news for you- https://www.msn.com/en-au/motoring/news/why-youll-always-pay-extra-for-evs/ar-BBO5c2C (https://www.msn.com/en-au/motoring/news/why-youll-always-pay-extra-for-evs/ar-BBO5c2C)

It's like this. Solar and wind power are very cheap to produce at the margin but we as consumers are interested in the average dispatchable cost at the flick of a switch and just like EVs when you have to account for the investment in making it reliable the cost gets really ugly. If you don't believe that just ask yourself who do you know with a BEV in the garage or a Tesla Powerwall or two attached to their solar panels?

PS: You do have to read between the lines with these feast or famine electrons that shift the bill to your poorer neighbours-
https://www.msn.com/en-au/money/company-news/australia-heading-for-a-battle-royale-on-solar-power/ar-BBOngef (https://www.msn.com/en-au/money/company-news/australia-heading-for-a-battle-royale-on-solar-power/ar-BBOngef)
And freecamping swaggers knowing what it takes to run a piddling fridge and a few LED lights on solar and batteries when it's overcast for 3 or 4 days should be the first to see through the rooftop solar BS that's been peddled to date.






 


 
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: prodigyrf on October 23, 2018, 10:35:21 AM
Not to worry as it's all going to be fixed in a jiffy and South Australians are going to get the biggest bucks back because we're the nicest people at saving the planet  :cup:
https://www.msn.com/en-au/money/personalfinance/power-prices-could-ease/ar-BBOKeGP (https://www.msn.com/en-au/money/personalfinance/power-prices-could-ease/ar-BBOKeGP)

Trust them, they're from the Gummint and they're here to help  ;D
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on November 01, 2018, 05:52:31 AM
Some more info for the nay sayers...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-01/coal-report-warns-of-grim-future-for-australian-thermal-coal/10452456 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-01/coal-report-warns-of-grim-future-for-australian-thermal-coal/10452456)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: paceman on November 01, 2018, 06:13:48 AM
Some more info for the nay sayers...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-01/coal-report-warns-of-grim-future-for-australian-thermal-coal/10452456 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-01/coal-report-warns-of-grim-future-for-australian-thermal-coal/10452456)

not sure about china switching to renewables...

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/china-secretly-building-hundreds-of-new-coal-plants-new-report-claims/news-story/024ff4216e024b7b6332a392a5904e89?nk=59e8d28c419b0a42273025e405e37d5f-1541016506 (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/china-secretly-building-hundreds-of-new-coal-plants-new-report-claims/news-story/024ff4216e024b7b6332a392a5904e89?nk=59e8d28c419b0a42273025e405e37d5f-1541016506)

or anywhere else, for that matter...

https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/07/03/forget-paris-1600-new-coal-power-plants-built-around-the-world/ (https://wattsupwiththat.com/2017/07/03/forget-paris-1600-new-coal-power-plants-built-around-the-world/)

and even if they do, it means we can have the coal for cheap power for centuries...

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: prodigyrf on November 14, 2018, 10:19:24 PM
Some more info for the nay sayers...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-01/coal-report-warns-of-grim-future-for-australian-thermal-coal/10452456 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-01/coal-report-warns-of-grim-future-for-australian-thermal-coal/10452456)


Just means more returns for existing mines as they sell it in shiploads to people not afraid of colourless odourless gaseous plant food-
http://joannenova.com.au/2018/11/like-prohibition-is-to-moonshine-green-divestment-activists-are-a-boon-for-coal-investors/ (http://joannenova.com.au/2018/11/like-prohibition-is-to-moonshine-green-divestment-activists-are-a-boon-for-coal-investors/)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: GeoffA on November 15, 2018, 05:55:51 AM
Some more info for the nay sayers...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-01/coal-report-warns-of-grim-future-for-australian-thermal-coal/10452456 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-01/coal-report-warns-of-grim-future-for-australian-thermal-coal/10452456)

Who is/are the IEEFA?

https://growaldfamilyfund.org/institute-for-energy-economics-and-financial-analysis-ieefa.html (https://growaldfamilyfund.org/institute-for-energy-economics-and-financial-analysis-ieefa.html)

Looks like just another bloke pushing his own agenda. Lots of waffle, but very little of substance on the web site.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: prodigyrf on November 15, 2018, 10:44:10 PM
Perhaps the climastrologists plugging tree rings, etc into their computer models were really tracking the price of unreliable power instead of our long interglacial warming that's seen the rise of mankind-
http://joannenova.com.au/2018/11/climate-models-are-a-joke/ (http://joannenova.com.au/2018/11/climate-models-are-a-joke/)
But then the doomsdayers got it wrong predicting the next Ice Age back in the 70s as well although the current lot of warmies have done their best to erase that embarrassing episode despite the internet having a long memory-
http://notrickszone.com/2016/09/13/massive-cover-up-exposed-285-papers-from-1960s-80s-reveal-robust-global-cooling-scientific-consensus/ (http://notrickszone.com/2016/09/13/massive-cover-up-exposed-285-papers-from-1960s-80s-reveal-robust-global-cooling-scientific-consensus/)

Still there's no stopping the current lot of technological illiterates trying to disprove a fundamental axiom of engineering, namely that you can't make a reliable system from unreliable componentry but they're determined to die in a ditch disproving it. There's no shortage of these movers and shakers committing political suicide trying to marry affordable power with despatchable/reliable Green power while our national grid heads for a train wreck with their dogged determination. Something about breaking a few eggs to make their omelette and where have we heard that before?
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Cruiser 105Tvan on November 15, 2018, 11:01:46 PM
Is that similar to our financial system being forced to endure a financial depression/collapse, because a Politician thought it was a good idea?
Title: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on December 05, 2018, 03:08:22 PM
Some facts out of China...
The last couple of paragraphs pretty much tell the story and it’s much different to what we’ve been getting told around here lately.

“SHANGHAI (Reuters) - A group of three Chinese regions failed to meet their targets to curb energy consumption growth and improve efficiency last year, the country’s top planning authority said in a notice published on Wednesday.

Liaoning province in the rustbelt northeast and the big coal producing regions of Ningxia and Xinjiang in the northwest failed to meet targets to cap rises in energy use and reduce the amount of energy consumed per unit of economic growth, the National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC) said.

China has been trying to fashion what it has called an “energy revolution” in order to ensure the economy continues to grow without significant increases in fossil fuel consumption, carbon emissions and pollution.

It aims to keep annual primary energy consumption at less than 5 billion tonnes of standard coal by 2020, up from 4.5 billion tonnes last year. It has also said it would cut energy intensity - the amount consumed per unit of economic growth - by 15 percent over the 2016-2020 period.

Though 12 provinces and regions exceeded their targets last year, some have continued to struggle. Liaoning, an old industrial base dominated by sectors like coal, oil and machinery, has struggled to diversify and its economy has been one of the country’s worst performers.

Meanwhile, Ningxia and Xinjiang are emerging as major new coal and electric power suppliers as traditional “energy bases” near the eastern coast come under greater pressure to curb air pollution.

China is trying to encourage regions to make greater use of clean and renewable energy resources, and it said on Tuesday that it would implement a new renewable energy quota system and improve grid access for wind, hydro and solar generators.

Meanwhile, state news agency Xinhua said on Tuesday, citing research from a government think-tank, that traditional coal-fired power plants are coming under increasing financial pressure as cleaner rivals become more competitive and their fuel, financing and environmental compliance costs increase.

According to research by the China Institute for Reform and Development, nearly half of China’s thermal power generators are facing losses as a result of their inability to pass higher costs onto consumers, with many turning into “zombie enterprises” after being forced into a “vicious circle” of debt.”


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-energy-efficiency/china-says-three-regions-failed-to-meet-energy-efficiency-targets-last-year-idUSKBN1O40BW?utm (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-energy-efficiency/china-says-three-regions-failed-to-meet-energy-efficiency-targets-last-year-idUSKBN1O40BW?utm)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: paceman on December 05, 2018, 03:59:57 PM
Some facts out of China...
The last couple of paragraphs pretty much tell the story and it’s much different to what we’ve been getting told around here lately.

facts? really?  just another news report out of china...  changes all the time...

depending on who you believe, satellite photos don't always lie...

https://grist.org/article/china-said-it-was-done-with-these-coal-plants-satellite-imagery-shows-otherwise/


in any case, i wonder if proponents of pure renewables would seriously believe that an only renewable-powered grid would have handled the energy needs of queensland, 24/7, in the heat wave conditions we've just experienced in central qld?

if you do, then you are delusional.


i thought this thought exercise was interesting, from https://papundits.wordpress.com/

Has anyone ever wondered about that gigantic ‘powerhouse’ that is rooftop solar?
The average system is around 5KW, and there is now supposedly 8GW (which is 8,000,000KW) of rooftop solar installed, so that averages out to around 1.6 Million installations. (average, because there’s way more than that)
Now, keep in mind how the cost for those rooftop systems has fallen dramatically, so let’s just do the sums on today’s price, keeping in mind that the cost has fallen, so it’s way way more than this. The average cost for the average system is around $4000, so the total cost for all this rooftop solar is around $6.4 Billion.
That 8 GW doesn’t actually generate 8GW of power, as the Capacity Factor for rooftop solar is around 18%, so 18% of 8GW is 1440MW.
So, effectively, we have a 1440MW ‘powerhouse’ which has cost $6.4 Billion PLUS.
But it hasn’t replaced any 1440MW power plant, because this is 2 million or more of these tiny little distributed inverters spread across the whole Country, not one large power plant with four Units delivering power in one humungous bulk amount, that actually is useful.
But hey, renewables are just …. soooooo much cheaper than coal fired power, eh!


and this as well (an add-on comment to the original above):

And, unlike coal or hydro, does NOT provide “system support” functions – essentially, they have no inertia, so don’t provide frequency support, don’t respond well to reactive loads, and are likely to drop off-line at a moments notice even when there’s no fault.
Title: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on December 05, 2018, 04:50:50 PM
facts? really?

depending on who you believe, satellite photos don't always lie...

https://grist.org/article/china-said-it-was-done-with-these-coal-plants-satellite-imagery-shows-otherwise/

Yep.

Satellite imagery supports the facts..

China has been trying to fashion what it has called an “energy revolution” in order to ensure the economy continues to grow without significant increases in fossil fuel consumption, carbon emissions and pollution.

It aims to keep annual primary energy consumption at less than 5 billion tonnes of standard coal by 2020, up from 4.5 billion tonnes last year. It has also said it would cut energy intensity - the amount consumed per unit of economic growth - by 15 percent over the 2016-2020 period.

Though 12 provinces and regions exceeded their targets last year, some have continued to struggle. Liaoning, an old industrial base dominated by sectors like coal, oil and machinery, has struggled to diversify and its economy has been one of the country’s worst performers.

Meanwhile, Ningxia and Xinjiang are emerging as major new coal and electric power suppliers as traditional “energy bases” near the eastern coast come under greater pressure to curb air pollution.

China is trying to encourage regions to make greater use of clean and renewable energy resources, and it said on Tuesday that it would implement a new renewable energy quota system and improve grid access for wind, hydro and solar generators.

Meanwhile, state news agency Xinhua said on Tuesday, citing research from a government think-tank, that traditional coal-fired power plants are coming under increasing financial pressure as cleaner rivals become more competitive and their fuel, financing and environmental compliance costs increase.

According to research by the China Institute for Reform and Development, nearly half of China’s thermal power generators are facing losses as a result of their inability to pass higher costs onto consumers, with many turning into “zombie enterprises” after being forced into a “vicious circle” of debt.”


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-energy-efficiency/china-says-three-regions-failed-to-meet-energy-efficiency-targets-last-year-idUSKBN1O40BW?utm (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-energy-efficiency/china-says-three-regions-failed-to-meet-energy-efficiency-targets-last-year-idUSKBN1O40BW?utm)

An extra 0.5 billion tones of coal obviously have to get burnt somewhere.

To use your words, you’d have to be delusional to think China is going to produce the vast majority of the worlds products and not need to build new power supplies.

And as the article states, some provenance exceeded their targets and they are still prospering.
While others that are stuck in the olden days refuse to diversify, their economies are one of the country’s worst performers.

The article does not say China isn’t building any new coal fired power stations, but it does say the OLD coal power is fast becoming an economic liability.

The biggest thing I take from the story is China is TRYING to change its ways and do something to reduce pollution for the betterment of their society. Which is really saying something considering our current political leaders in this country can’t even acknowledge there’s a problem.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: paceman on December 05, 2018, 05:14:51 PM
The article does not say China isn’t building any new coal fired power stations, but it does say the OLD coal power is fast becoming an economic liability.

so, why not new, cleaner coal power?

The biggest thing I take from the story is China is TRYING to change its ways and do something to reduce pollution for the betterment of their society. Which is really saying something considering our current political leaders in this country can’t even acknowledge there’s a problem.

whilst changing ways is admirable (when done with common sense), in this case, it unfortunately comes at the expense of cheap, reliable and plentiful power that humanity thrives on...

and also contributes to the ever-rising costs of living, which are already pushing plenty to the brink...

we are already seeing both of these scenarios play out here in australia, where soon it will be the haves and have nots, when it comes to energy consumption.


Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on December 05, 2018, 05:22:03 PM
Quote from: paceman
so, why not new, cleaner coal power?

we have a winner. technology has come a few ft forward since the old coal powered were built...
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: paceman on December 05, 2018, 05:26:05 PM
we have a winner. technology has come a few ft forward since the old coal powered were built...

It’s not even an option for some.

It offers a tangible, realistic bridging point to the renewables panacea that some think is inevitable.


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Title: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on December 05, 2018, 05:58:52 PM
we have a winner. technology has come a few ft forward since the old coal powered were built...
The only thing stopping any investment in new power is the last 11 years of political stupidity.

ETS, no ETS, RET, no RET, Carbon tax, no carbon tax, NEG, no NEG and on and on it goes with no end in sight.
Oh sorry, I forgot this current mob have now got a “big stick”, whatever the f*** that means...!!

What company would ever invest in a massive infrastructure project like a power station when we have political leaders that have absolutely no direction for our country’s future?
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on December 05, 2018, 06:07:45 PM
The only thing stopping any investment in new power is the last 11 years of political stupidity.
I hope your not waiting for that to change.... ???

Other countries overseas are pissing themselves at AU, as they are building Modern Coal Powered stations... and moving forward...

While our leaders cannot see past trying to get re-elected in few years time - say what the lemmings want to hear, keep the lemmings happy.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: JusyApples on December 05, 2018, 06:08:26 PM
Build more power stations, whether it’s nuclear or coal I don’t care. Someone just needs the balls to do it


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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on December 05, 2018, 07:29:24 PM
Build more power stations, whether it’s nuclear or coal I don’t care. Someone just needs the balls to do it


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They will......but not until we are backed into a corner with large scale blackouts etc, then we'll pay thru the nose for a quick bandaid solution.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: JusyApples on December 05, 2018, 07:50:22 PM
They will......but not until we are backed into a corner with large scale blackouts etc, then we'll pay thru the nose for a quick bandaid solution.
Seems to be the Australian way


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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on December 05, 2018, 08:15:18 PM
Clean coal???  WTF!!   .  Clean coal...what a friggin joke
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on December 05, 2018, 09:05:10 PM
Clean coal???  WTF!!   .  Clean coal...what a friggin joke

I used to work in a coal mine.  After coming out of the mine it went thru a washery.......comes out sparkling clean !!   ;D ;D
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: paceman on December 05, 2018, 09:17:05 PM
Clean coal???  WTF!!   .  Clean coal...what a friggin joke

and yet the resources used/mined/transported and pollution created when electric cars/solar/wind are manufactured and then not being able to be recycled, so we have mountains of old panels and batteries laying around... are all so clean?

NO form of energy creation is done without pollution.  take off the blinkers and it's easy to see that the so called 'clean & green' options for energy creation are anything but...



Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on December 06, 2018, 05:24:19 AM
Clean coal was a catchcry invented by the coal companies in an effort to give the public the perception that coal could be clean energy. Absolute bullShit.  For coal to be used it has to be burnt...therein lies the problem.  Renewables also have a legacy.  Same as when your missus does the shopping...look at all the packaging even from organic foods.  Everything we do has a downside. .  I am in agreeance with Sir David Attenborough...we are blindly heading to a point of no return where we will cease to exist because of our own doing.  Greed and denial are the culprits.  Self interest groups, corporations, governments, and the "I,m alright Jack..F you" people are the ones whose idea of living is to be guided by the almighty dollar.    I,m 65 and don't reckon I,ll see 85 but one thing I know...I,m glad I wont be here in 100 years...it will be a complete Shithole thanks to mans stupidity. Wonder what your grand kids will reckon about how we are behaving now?
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: JusyApples on December 06, 2018, 05:29:05 AM
Clean coal was a catchcry invented by the coal companies in an effort to give the public the perception that coal could be clean energy. Absolute bullShit.  For coal to be used it has to be burnt...therein lies the problem.  Renewables also have a legacy.  Same as when your missus does the shopping...look at all the packaging even from organic foods.  Everything we do has a downside. .  I am in agreeance with Sir David Attenborough...we are blindly heading to a point of no return where we will cease to exist because of our own doing.  Greed and denial are the culprits.  Self interest groups, corporations, governments, and the "I,m alright Jack..F you" people are the ones whose idea of living is to be guided by the almighty dollar.    I,m 65 and don't reckon I,ll see 85 but one thing I know...I,m glad I wont be here in 100 years...it will be a complete Shithole thanks to mans stupidity. Wonder what your grand kids will reckon about how we are behaving now?
Climate change was created for people to make money out of renewables. What’s your point.


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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: paceman on December 06, 2018, 06:11:36 AM
Clean coal was a catchcry invented by the coal companies in an effort to give the public the perception that coal could be clean energy. Absolute bullShit.  For coal to be used it has to be burnt...therein lies the problem.  Renewables also have a legacy.  Same as when your missus does the shopping...look at all the packaging even from organic foods.  Everything we do has a downside. .  I am in agreeance with Sir David Attenborough...we are blindly heading to a point of no return where we will cease to exist because of our own doing.  Greed and denial are the culprits.  Self interest groups, corporations, governments, and the "I,m alright Jack..F you" people are the ones whose idea of living is to be guided by the almighty dollar.    I,m 65 and don't reckon I,ll see 85 but one thing I know...I,m glad I wont be here in 100 years...it will be a complete Shithole thanks to mans stupidity. Wonder what your grand kids will reckon about how we are behaving now?

as previously stated in this thread, i am not against renewables, as long as they can provide the cheap, reliable and plentiful power that fossil fuels currently can.

humanity thrives when energy is these three things.  it's a fact.

renewables cannot do that currently, and yet the push is on to completely dismiss fossil fuels straight away. 

hopefully my grandkids will have enough money to pay for energy, because at this rate, energy will be for those who have plenty of money.  it's happening right now.

what do you think is one of the biggest causes of higher power prices?

i also hope my grandkids are smart enough to use their brains and common sense and get the best outcome, regardless of zealots ramming things down their throats, at the expense of humanity.

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on December 06, 2018, 06:43:21 AM
Climate change was created for people to make money out of renewables. What’s your point.


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I reckon you,d be Fred Flinstones best mate. This ideology also validates my belief in the stupidity/ignorance of some people.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: paceman on December 06, 2018, 07:00:38 AM
This ideology also validates my belief in the stupidity/ignorance of some people.

the use of the word 'ideology' is interesting...

considering that the overwhelming reason to go with renewables ASAP is to cut down on CO2 emissions, don't you think it's weird that there is not one scientific paper (using the proper scientific method) or study that conclusively links high CO2 levels in the upper atmosphere with rising temperatures?

models and theories, not withstanding.

correlation does not equal causation.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on December 06, 2018, 07:41:16 AM
Prefered view of the world from the denialists..
...

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pottsy on December 06, 2018, 07:45:18 AM
Maybe Cleaner Coal?
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: paceman on December 06, 2018, 07:48:28 AM
Prefered view of the world from the denialists..
...

i'm a skeptic... huge difference.

but i appreciate the derogatory nature of your replies... it confirms why these debates are a waste of time.

i've said my piece in this thread.  enjoy your day.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on December 06, 2018, 07:52:15 AM
i'm a skeptic... huge difference.

but i appreciate the derogatory nature of your replies... it confirms why these debates are a waste of time.

i've said my piece in this thread.  enjoy your day.

hahaha...I,m a skeptic too but am a believer in climate change...I,ve done my homework. Opinions are like arseholes...everyone has one...
Cheers
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: JusyApples on December 06, 2018, 10:57:42 AM
I reckon you,d be Fred Flinstones best mate. This ideology also validates my belief in the stupidity/ignorance of some people.
Just like most people of the left. If someone disagrees with their opinion they start the personal attacks.


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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on December 06, 2018, 11:48:10 AM
Just like most people of the left. If someone disagrees with their opinion they start the personal attacks.

Cough, cough.... Pot-Kettle-Black.......

Quote
if you do, then you are delusional.

Quote
regardless of zealots ramming things down their throats, at the expense of humanity.

We could go on...
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pottsy on December 06, 2018, 11:50:09 AM
Yep, starting to sound like politics, if you can't win the debate with facts go with personal attacks, be a better spectacle with duelling pistols at 10 paces. ;D
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Paddler Ed on December 06, 2018, 12:04:48 PM
If we aren't certain of what impact we are having, but know that the amount of CO2 is increasing, and therefore we are heading into unknown territory, perhaps the best bet is to cut back on the amount of CO2 we are producing?

It's a simple idea called the Precautionary Principle  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle)

If we are clever we can also reduce our costs as we reduce the amount of CO2 we produce - even down to changing lightbulbs at home makes a difference. However, there is a balancing act in terms of the outputs from what we shift to - hence the clampdown on diesels in Europe where the focus was on CO2 for a long time, resulting in a shift towards more economical cars (diesel) but the rise in particulates was the next problem...
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: alnjan on December 06, 2018, 12:40:33 PM
'They' say CO2 is the problem and further 'they' it is man made CO2 is the problem.  Then just how the heck to do they justify cows and other livestock belching and farting has to be dramatically culled or 'taxed'.  I might just be a little bit sceptical on that one.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Paddler Ed on December 06, 2018, 01:26:19 PM
'They' say CO2 is the problem and further 'they' it is man made CO2 is the problem.  Then just how the heck to do they justify cows and other livestock belching and farting has to be dramatically culled or 'taxed'.  I might just be a little bit sceptical on that one.

There is research going on with cattle burps (as that's where the methane escapes from, not farts) in feedlots, and also within that the effect that different feeds have on those burps (ie grass vs corn/manufactured feed etc). One of the things is that it's easier to measure the methane output as the ruminant burps in a feedlot as it can be done when the head is in the feeder.

It is one of the arguments for reducing red meat consumption (which has a tendency to go up as incomes increase), especially as the world's population gets more affluent.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: alnjan on December 06, 2018, 01:40:12 PM
There is research going on with cattle burps (as that's where the methane escapes from, not farts) in feedlots, and also within that the effect that different feeds have on those burps (ie grass vs corn/manufactured feed etc). One of the things is that it's easier to measure the methane output as the ruminant burps in a feedlot as it can be done when the head is in the feeder.

It is one of the arguments for reducing red meat consumption (which has a tendency to go up as incomes increase), especially as the world's population gets more affluent.

It just sounds like Vegan BS which ever way it is described. 
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Paddler Ed on December 06, 2018, 03:07:29 PM
It just sounds like Vegan BS which ever way it is described.

I suspect that's the view of someone who does not see the potential impacts of changes that might happen in 25 years time as having any impact on them because they are likely to be dead... Sorry, but I think the tide is turning against those who are not taking the view that things are changing in the environment at a pace and scale we are not familiar with, and that whilst activity as normal isn't a problem for the near future (ie 10-15 years), the potential for a planet with 9bn people on it in the next 30 years does mean that there will need to be some changes in what we produce as food, and our choices around food.

It's the same as the Brexit debacle in the UK, the number of over 65s who voted leave was much higher than those under 25.... but in the 15 years that the full ramifications are expected to shake out most of those over 65s will be dead (average live expectancy of about 80 years old).... whilst those who are 25 will be suffering the ramifications for the next 55 years at least (life expectancy of 80 again - although, for those born in 2016 IIRC it's 82)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: alnjan on December 06, 2018, 04:27:40 PM
I suspect that's the view of someone who does not see the potential impacts of changes that might happen in 25 years time as having any impact on them because they are likely to be dead... Sorry, but I think the tide is turning against those who are not taking the view that things are changing in the environment at a pace and scale we are not familiar with, and that whilst activity as normal isn't a problem for the near future (ie 10-15 years), the potential for a planet with 9bn people on it in the next 30 years does mean that there will need to be some changes in what we produce as food, and our choices around food.

It's the same as the Brexit debacle in the UK, the number of over 65s who voted leave was much higher than those under 25.... but in the 15 years that the full ramifications are expected to shake out most of those over 65s will be dead (average live expectancy of about 80 years old).... whilst those who are 25 will be suffering the ramifications for the next 55 years at least (life expectancy of 80 again - although, for those born in 2016 IIRC it's 82)

Or someone that has heard over the year all the different potential impacts of changes that might happen over the past 25 years + time and has not seen any impact on them because they are not dead or floating. 
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: DeBe on December 06, 2018, 04:48:30 PM
Something that seems to be missing in the CO2 argument , is that trees & plants need CO2 to survive & produce oxygen that we need!!! People have found a way to make money out of nothing.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: GeoffA on December 06, 2018, 09:03:55 PM
Throughout history there has never been a shortage of prophets of doom.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on December 06, 2018, 09:31:53 PM
I suspect that's the view of someone who does not see the potential impacts of changes that might happen in 25 years time as having any impact on them because they are likely to be dead...
Either that or Allan told them this morning that it’s all a bunch of lies made up by the loony left... ;)


Sorry, but I think the tide is turning against those who are not taking the view that things are changing in the environment at a pace and scale we are not familiar with, and that whilst activity as normal isn't a problem for the near future (ie 10-15 years), the potential for a planet with 9bn people on it in the next 30 years does mean that there will need to be some changes in what we produce as food, and our choices around food.

You’ve absolutely nailed it there.
Personally those that choose to shout at each other from the far left and far right of this conversation don’t really bother me.
It’s the short sighted ones that are the problem.

One of the lines I always hear is how the earth has been heating and cooling forever, or how one volcano can change everything.

I was reading an article earlier about the Greenland glaciers. It was written by those lying scientists and not verified by Mr Jones or Mr Abbott, but still an interesting read nonetheless.

Quote
What Greenland's 'unprecedented' ice loss means for Earth.
The ice sheet is melting faster than in the last 350 years.

For a few days in July of 2012, it was so hot in the Arctic that nearly the entire surface of the Greenland ice sheet turned to slush.

It was so uncharacteristically warm that scientists, emerging from their tents high on the peak of the ice sheet, sank up to their knees in the suddenly soft snow. And then, that snow started melting.

Near the edge of the ice sheet, bright blue puddles collected on the flat white surface. Rivulets of melt trickled down, braiding into fat, gushing rivers. The meltwater punched through gullies and spilled down crevasses. One river near the edge of the ice sheet was so swollen that it swept away a bridge that had been there for decades.

.....

“The melting of the Greenland ice sheet is greater than at any point in the last three to four centuries, and probably much longer than that,” says Luke Trusel, a researcher at Rowan University in New Jersey and lead author of the new study, published today in Nature.

.....

Scientists already knew that Greenland was melting fast; they could track its shrinking size from satellites. But the key satellite data only goes back until the early 1990s—so they couldn’t tell exactly how alarmed to be by the melting. Had this kind of jaw-dropping warming happened before? How unusual was it, compared to the time before human-caused climate change kicked into gear? No one knew.

They had to figure out a way to look back in time, so they went to the source: the ice sheet itself. They fanned across the ice surface and drilled a suite of ice cores that recorded signals of how much and how intensely the surface of the ice sheet had melted over the past few hundred years. They compared that with models, which let them calculate how much runoff would result from the kind of surface melting recorded in the ice cores.

And in both, they saw a clear signal. Melting and runoff started creeping upward just when the first stirrings of human-caused climate change hit the Arctic, in the mid-19th century. But the real drama unfolded in the past 20 years; suddenly, melt intensity shot up, up to nearly six-fold higher than it was before the Industrial Revolution.

“It’s really like turning on a switch,” says Beata Csatho, a glaciologist at the University at Buffalo who was not a part of the study.

So there’s just one tiny piece of fact based evidence showing the impact that modern industrialization has had on one tiny piece of this earth.

Some may read it and think it’s pretty clear that for the sake of future generations we should try to clean up our act just a tiny bit.
Others will just think those scientists are only trying to sell some solar panels and batteries....



Full article here (https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/2018/12/greenland-ice-sheet-is-melting-faster-than-in-the-last-350-years/)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: JusyApples on December 07, 2018, 04:52:48 AM
Cough, cough.... Pot-Kettle-Black.......

We could go on...
Sorry Pete when did I call old mate stupid?

The fact is the earths climate changes no matter who is here? Did humans cause the ice age? Man made climate change is just a bit of bs so the people who have $$ invested in renewables can make money. Remember when Al Gore travelled the world armed with all his bs modelling and when he was called out he disappeared.
What about old Tim Flannery who claimed all the rain would evaporate because the ground would be too hard and full of cracks. This was meant to have happened by now, where is he? Never heard of again.

If renewables were so good why are they subsidised? What happens when there’s no sun or wind? Where does our energy come from on those days?

Other countries are building a stack of coal fired power stations, we will be left behind all because of a few paid activists who show up to places and make a bit of noise.



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Title: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on December 07, 2018, 05:55:43 AM
Sorry Pete when did I call old mate stupid?
I wasn’t referencing you specifically, just pointing out that both sides like to make personal attacks and throw insults around when it suits.

Back on topic.

Do you believe the scientists when they explain what caused the ice age?

Why not believe them when they explain the clear link between modern industrialization and the proven acceleration of the earths heating over the last couple of decades?

Yes there are the Al Gores and Tim Flannery’s on one side, just the same as the other side have all of their dire predictions about economies being completely destroyed and societies crumbling if we dare do anything to try and reduce our polluting ways. Which obviously didn’t happen to any of those countries that have made big changes to their environmental outputs in recent years.

No body (well at least not on here) is saying we need to go back to the Stone Age.
But if we can give cows feed that reduces their burps a little bit or drive cars that put just a little bit less crap out their exhaust or heaven forbid, produce electricity with less toxic emissions, is that not a good thing?

Looking after the planet is not that different to looking after yourself.
Sure you can survive sitting on the couch living on a diet of Maccas and Coke. Your going to have all sorts of health problems, but you’ll survive.
Whereas you can eat fresh unprocessed foods and push yourself though a little bit of pain with exercise everyday and you’ll be much much happier in the long run.

We can keep pumping out crap into the atmosphere and dumping Shit into the oceans, the world will still turn, might be a bit hotter and a few less animals getting around, but the plant will still be here.
Or we can literally clean up our act just a tiny bit, suffer a little bit of financial pain and leave this place in half decent condition for our great grandkids to enjoy.

Unfortunately those of us that care about the long term can’t do enough to offset what is being done by those shortsighted ones that only care about their own personal comfort right now.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on December 07, 2018, 06:23:56 AM
SOME MORE FACTS FOR THE DINOSAURS TO DISPUTE...

A landmark study has shown that renewable energy has reduced electricity prices by far more than the subsidies paid for it.
Key points:

    The study's lead author said the research proved renewables were the key to lower power prices
    Researchers found South Australians were paying, on average, the highest electricity prices in the world
    Gas-fired power is pushing prices higher, while wind and solar are placing downward pressure on prices, the study found

The independent study, by the Victoria Energy Policy Centre, focused on the South Australian electricity market and confirmed households in the state have on average the highest electricity prices in the world.

FULL ARTICLE.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-07/study-shows-impact-wind-solar-gas-power-on-electricity-prices/10590876 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-07/study-shows-impact-wind-solar-gas-power-on-electricity-prices/10590876)


OPINION ARTICLE.  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-07/climate-change-denialism-holocaust-david-attenborough-coal/10585744 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-07/climate-change-denialism-holocaust-david-attenborough-coal/10585744)

  ""It would be fascinating to eavesdrop on discussions between members of the Flat Earth Society sailing the open sea, and debating why the horizon is curved. They would provide a good laugh.

They are deluded, but most committed flat earth believers appear normal in the rest of their lives and their delusion is not generally harmful to others.

A delusion is a belief that is clearly false, a denial of facts. It indicates an abnormality in the affected person's content of thought.

The false belief is not accounted for by the person's cultural or religious background or their level of intelligence.

The belief of climate change deniers is usually unshakable, like that of the flat-earth believers or Holocaust deniers. Many delude themselves that there is a conspiracy.

US President Donald Trump uses the words "hoax" and "Chinese hoax". Often their fervour leads to influential positions, for example in environment and energy policy as in the Coalition.  ""
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on December 07, 2018, 08:20:26 AM
There are as many research articles "for" as there are "against" out there.

Just depends who is pushing the barrow.

Just remember if they dont put out *something* they lose their grants.

YMMV
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: alnjan on December 07, 2018, 09:53:18 AM
I know it is only a small part but there is a very big difference between changing a cows feed to the planned mass culling of of all livestock that alarmists with the scientific and political fields.  Maybe the alarmist and the livestock need to change fields occasionally.   
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on December 07, 2018, 01:33:43 PM
Everyone knows that the biggest contributor for CO2 is volcanoes. But one we can't do anything about.

But I haven't seen any reports on whether there is more activity in the last 10 to 30 yrs compared to previous times ??

Everyone also knows that what we do in almost every aspect of life isn't good for the worlds health, but until the rest of the world starts doing something about it, we as a minnow of the big picture are wasting our time talking about reducing OUR carbon footprint !!
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pottsy on December 07, 2018, 02:19:53 PM
There have been some very eloquent arguments put both for and against on this thread but I think the two points of view will never meet. Am I card carrying greenie, definitely not, but we do recycle our household waste as per our local councils bin system. Do we drink bottled water, no, rainwater in refillable bottles, are we careful with water and power (solar installed) usage, yes, more motivated by cost than some over arching need to save the planet.
Is this all undone by the fact I drive a diesel, wear clothes and footwear made from synthetics and I eat meat from cattle which burp and fart?
Am I believer in climate change, probably not, I remember the hole in the ozone layer controversy, Y2K etc, but everyone is entitled to their opinions and I would assume they practice the beliefs of those opinions. Sometimes the biggest negative can be zealots who try to force their enthusiasm for a cause on others, protesters who resort to violence, Greenpeace and the damage inflicted on infrastructure or equipment, Greenies and the spiking of trees etc.
One of the hardest things in this world of immediacy, media manipulation and fake news is who to believe. Their are brighter minds than mine who will continue to debate, work on a solution or debunk someone else's science regardless of the topic wether it be global warming, bacon causing cancer, aspirin preventing heart attacks etcetera, etcetera.
For me I am going to enjoy what years I have left with my wife and family in what some will say is a selfish attitude to my own existence.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on December 07, 2018, 04:12:20 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfJhPbFW6qk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfJhPbFW6qk)

By all means, watch the whole thing, but save the planet is about 6.30 minutes in......  ;D
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on December 07, 2018, 08:21:44 PM
SOME MORE FACTS FOR THE DINOSAURS TO DISPUTE...

A landmark study has shown that renewable energy has reduced electricity prices by far more than the subsidies paid for it.
Key points:

    The study's lead author said the research proved renewables were the key to lower power prices
    Researchers found South Australians were paying, on average, the highest electricity prices in the world
    Gas-fired power is pushing prices higher, while wind and solar are placing downward pressure on prices, the study found


I don't think that this says what you want it too, yes renewables are now cheaper..... when they are working, but unless you are happy to only use power when the sun shining or the wind is blowing, you then need a backup, either gas or batteries seem to be the most popular at the moment, and when you combine the two, you end up with more expensive power, it no coincidence that SA has the highest rate of renewables and the highest electricity prices of the mainland states.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: JusyApples on December 09, 2018, 08:17:16 PM
I don't think that this says what you want it too, yes renewables are now cheaper..... when they are working, but unless you are happy to only use power when the sun shining or the wind is blowing, you then need a backup, either gas or batteries seem to be the most popular at the moment, and when you combine the two, you end up with more expensive power, it no coincidence that SA has the highest rate of renewables and the highest electricity prices of the mainland states.
And probably the most blackouts


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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on January 02, 2019, 10:37:30 AM
I have mentioned this a few times in the past so is interesting to see an article on it, I don't have so much of an issue with the subsidies from general revenue but with the ones coming from higher power prices. https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/blogs/tim-blair/poor-subsidising-the-solarloving-rich/news-story/3884c995eb7344f5f007c2b160866878 (https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/blogs/tim-blair/poor-subsidising-the-solarloving-rich/news-story/3884c995eb7344f5f007c2b160866878)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on January 20, 2019, 11:21:25 PM
https://amp.abc.net.au/article/10729020

My heart bleeds for them
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on January 24, 2019, 11:13:10 AM
I have mentioned this a few times in the past so is interesting to see an article on it, I don't have so much of an issue with the subsidies from general revenue but with the ones coming from higher power prices. https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/blogs/tim-blair/poor-subsidising-the-solarloving-rich/news-story/3884c995eb7344f5f007c2b160866878 (https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/blogs/tim-blair/poor-subsidising-the-solarloving-rich/news-story/3884c995eb7344f5f007c2b160866878)

Hahahahahahahahahaha.....
A 'news artical' written by Tim Blair?? Really???
The extreme right, greens hating, muslim bashing, Murdoch mouth peace Tim Blair?
That guy can write a balanced artical about solar power, wow.. Who knew...  ;D

I do like the comment under that photo though.
Nothing says 'quality journalism' like saying someone could mount solar panels on their forehead...  :angel:

...


Now at the complete oppersite end of the Tim Blair spectrum is a fantastic Australian Dr Katerina Kimmorley.

Dr Kimmorley created an Australian company that is currently the largest supplier of solar lighting and power to the poorest people in the world.
Her company Pollinate Energy (https://pollinateenergy.org/) has brought power to over 550,000 people in India and Napal over the last few years.

Katerina was in India during the largest ever human distaster, when the lights went out on 700,000,000 (Yes that is Seven Hundred Million) people.
That's 30 times the whole Australian population without power.

She saw that there is currently 500,000,000 people living in the slums over there that rely on kerosene for thier lighting and living with no other power, so she did something about it.
No she didn't build a coal fired powerplant, as much as that would have made mr Blair happy. ;)
She established a new company to give these people a solar power supply that gives them lighting for their house and allows them to charge a phone and run a small TV.
They are supplying these solar units for the cost of 10 weeks worth of kerosene.
So now, for the cost of 10 weeks worth of kerosene light they can have solar lighting and power of the next 20 years.

It makes me so happy to know there awesome Australians actually standing up and using new technology to bring power to the poorest people in the world.  :cup:

So if you'll excuse me I'll just continue ignoring the Tim Blairs, Alan Jones' and Rupert Murdocks of the world and focus on those great people actually doing exciting things to help their fellow man.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: paceman on January 24, 2019, 11:59:34 AM
Hahahahahahahahahaha.....
A 'news artical' written by Tim Blair?? Really???
The extreme right, greens hating, muslim bashing, Murdoch mouth peace Tim Blair?
That guy can write a balanced artical about solar power, wow.. Who knew...  ;D

to be fair, there are plenty of extreme mouth pieces on the other side as well... 

They are supplying these solar units for the cost of 10 weeks worth of kerosene.
So now, for the cost of 10 weeks worth of kerosene light they can have solar lighting and power of the next 20 years.

it's ambitious to think that these solar setups will last 20 years and keep giving the same output.

the sentiment is there, but until we get some actual, real-life data on how long solar actually lasts and what damage it can do in regards to recycling components, energy use to create, etc... it is impossible to quantify the timeframe of useful output and associated costs.

It makes me so happy to know there awesome Australians actually standing up and using new technology to bring power to the poorest people in the world.  :cup:

So if you'll excuse me I'll just continue ignoring the Tim Blairs, Alan Jones' and Rupert Murdocks of the world and focus on those great people actually doing exciting things to help their fellow man.

isn't that the high-level intention of the Adani project, to highlight one example?  to bring energy to millions over in India?

the initiatives you have spoken about for individual families certainly have value, but what about industry, hospitals, etc?  the coal mined by Adani might very well bring millions out of poverty and provide a real future, a future that we have already had the benefits of?

who are we to say 'you can't have it', when we have had it already?

contrary to popular belief, there is no black or white solution to energy creation and distribution that will make all sides of the discussion happy.

and until ALL sides get that through their heads , progress will be stagnated.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on January 24, 2019, 12:09:27 PM
Quote from: paceman
to be fair, there are plenty of extreme mouth pieces on the other side as well...
Just depends who is paying the bill.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: paceman on January 24, 2019, 12:12:44 PM
Just depends who is paying the bill.

in some cases, including when it comes to the actual science, which is a shame...

but other times, it's just passion (rightly or wrongly placed).  nobody in their right mind wants the earth to go belly up, but some seem to ignore the fact that some policies will hurt living people on that earth right now, and choose to ignore that fact....

there is a middle ground.  plenty of people, groups, governments have yet to find it.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on January 24, 2019, 12:27:46 PM
to be fair, there are plenty of extreme mouth pieces on the other side as well... 
Possibly, but it just so happens that not one is currently on the payrol of any Murdoch owned entity....;)

isn't that the high-level intention of the Adani project, to highlight one example?  to bring energy to millions over in India?
No, it's not.
Quote
Initially, Adani had planned to run its own vertically integrated “pit-to-plug” operation, taking coal from the Galilee basin, transporting it to Adani-owned power stations in India, and increasing profits by cutting out middlemen. Up to 16m tonnes a year from the proposed Queensland mine was earmarked for the Mundra power plant in Gujarat.
But Mundra has since fallen into serious financial difficulty, making the “pit-to-plug” vision largely untenable. Adani’s subsidiary Adani Power has a net debt of about US$7bn. Last year it offered to sell majority control in the Mundra power station to a government entity for one rupee.

So now then plan is to sell the power generated from the imported Australian coal to Bangladesh.
Quote
Despite Godda’s proximity to India’s coal heartland, Adani would have to import coal to the new plant. The company’s Australian arm has already begun to hint that this will come from Carmichael. At an event in Brisbane last month the chief executive of Adani Australia, Jeyakumar Janakaraj, was reported by News Corp as saying Galilee coal had been “booked”.
Buckley estimates the 700km – and 8km/h – train journey to Godda from the coast would add US$16 a tonne to the cost of coal to fuel the new plant, relative to a coastal power plant.

He says the deal is clearly not in the interests of Bangladesh, which would bear the costs of imported coal and unnecessary transport. Buckley said the country could import power more cheaply by seeking fuel-agnostic competitive tenders from the Indian market.
“The logistics of the proposal can only work because the power purchase agreement allows Adani Power to pass the full cost of importing the coal on to Bangladesh.”
“Godda would lock Bangladesh into expensive electricity with high emissions at a time when cleaner, cheaper alternative sources of energy are rapidly being deployed across India,” Buckley said.
The deal with Adani has prompted protests in Dhaka on environmental grounds that have had to be broken up by police.

the initiatives you have spoken about for individual families certainly have value, but what about industry, hospitals, etc?  the coal mined by Adani might very well bring millions out of poverty and provide a real future, a future that we have already had the benefits of?

who are we to say 'you can't have it', when we have had it already?

contrary to popular belief, there is no black or white solution to energy creation and distribution that will make all sides of the discussion happy.

and until ALL sides get that through their heads , progress will be stagnated.
India has no plans to roll out mains power to these slums, one would be very foolish to believe otherwise.
There is no water, no sewage, no services in these areas at all.
Adani will not be the savior of mankind and start installing new power supplies for these people. Adani will do what it needs to continue to make profits, full stop.

If not for people like Dr Kimmorley, those living in the slums would continue gassing them selves to death with their kerosene lighing for a very, very long time.
Yes, perhaps her forecast life span of these systems is a little ambitious, but it took one Australian with a vision to actually do something to extend the life spans of hundreds of thousands of people.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on January 24, 2019, 12:29:26 PM
Hahahahahahahahahaha.....
A 'news artical' written by Tim Blair?? Really???
The extreme right, greens hating, muslim bashing, Murdoch mouth peace Tim Blair?
That guy can write a balanced artical about solar power, wow.. Who knew...  ;D

I do like the comment under that photo though.
Nothing says 'quality journalism' like saying someone could mount solar panels on their forehead...  :angel:

...


Now at the complete oppersite end of the Tim Blair spectrum is a fantastic Australian Dr Katerina Kimmorley.

Dr Kimmorley created an Australian company that is currently the largest supplier of solar lighting and power to the poorest people in the world.
Her company Pollinate Energy (https://pollinateenergy.org/) has brought power to over 550,000 people in India and Napal over the last few years.

Katerina was in India during the largest ever human distaster, when the lights went out on 700,000,000 (Yes that is Seven Hundred Million) people.
That's 30 times the whole Australian population without power.

She saw that there is currently 500,000,000 people living in the slums over there that rely on kerosene for thier lighting and living with no other power, so she did something about it.
No she didn't build a coal fired powerplant, as much as that would have made mr Blair happy. ;)
She established a new company to give these people a solar power supply that gives them lighting for their house and allows them to charge a phone and run a small TV.
They are supplying these solar units for the cost of 10 weeks worth of kerosene.
So now, for the cost of 10 weeks worth of kerosene light they can have solar lighting and power of the next 20 years.

It makes me so happy to know there awesome Australians actually standing up and using new technology to bring power to the poorest people in the world.  :cup:

So if you'll excuse me I'll just continue ignoring the Tim Blairs, Alan Jones' and Rupert Murdocks of the world and focus on those great people actually doing exciting things to help their fellow man.

Textbook case of argumentum ad hominem and a red herring.

Edit, to give more context the article was about solar panels and their subsidies in Australia.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: paceman on January 24, 2019, 12:35:29 PM
Possibly, but it just so happens that not one is currently on the payrol of any Murdoch owned entity....;)
No, it's not.
So now then plan is to sell the power generated from the imported Australian coal to Bangladesh.India has no plans to roll out mains power to these slums, one would be very foolish to believe otherwise.
There is no water, no sewage, no services in these areas at all.
Adani will not be the savior of mankind and start installing new power supplies for these people. Adani will do what it needs to continue to make profits, full stop.

If not for people like Dr Kimmorley, those living in the slums would continue gassing them selves to death with their kerosene lighing for a very, very long time.
Yes, perhaps her forecast life span of these systems is a little ambitious, but it took one Australian with a vision to actually do something to extend the life spans of hundreds of thousands of people.

possibly?  righto...  they are all angels on the other side...

regardless of who owns the power, where is all the energy going to go?  is that energy no good to the millions you speak of?  because it comes from coal, it must not be used or taken advantage of? 

you can't provide water, sewage, services to millions without mass energy of some kind.

like i said, there is a middle ground to these issues, but some refuse to believe/acknowledge it.

but hey, i guess if you are a skeptic (like me), we must just want the earth to self-destruct, so my kids have nothing. 

makes sense.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on January 24, 2019, 01:40:42 PM
to be fair, there are plenty of extreme mouth pieces on the other side as well... 

it's ambitious to think that these solar setups will last 20 years and keep giving the same output.

the sentiment is there, but until we get some actual, real-life data on how long solar actually lasts and what damage it can do in regards to recycling components, energy use to create, etc... it is impossible to quantify the timeframe of useful output and associated costs.

isn't that the high-level intention of the Adani project, to highlight one example?  to bring energy to millions over in India?.  No! To make hundreds of millions for the Irish/Cayman Island registered company...funny how their tax laws prevent anyone from knowing how much is earnt.

the initiatives you have spoken about for individual families certainly have value, but what about industry, hospitals, etc?  the coal mined by Adani might very well bring millions out of poverty and provide a real future, a future that we have already had the benefits of?
.  India has already said it wants to turn away from coal.  The pollution is already killing millions around the world.
who are we to say 'you can't have it', when we have had it already?

contrary to popular belief, there is no black or white solution to energy creation and distribution that will make all sides of the discussion happy.

and until ALL sides get that through their heads , progress will be stagnated.  Unfortunately, although it may upset the dinosaurs and troglodytes who cant see renewables as a viable alternative,...solar, wind tidal and hydro power will definitely play a majority part of our future energy needs. 
.

As for Adani...what a bloody joke.  Its a proven fact that if it goes ahead most of the Hunter Valley in NSW will be shut down.  Adani must be back handing someone plenty of dollars to secure the deal of a lifetime...Free, unlimited, unregulated water for the life of the plant...while every food producing farmer pays through the nose.  The same as every house, business and town in Qld...what a f,en joke.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: paceman on January 24, 2019, 01:55:54 PM
.

As for Adani...what a bloody joke.  Its a proven fact that if it goes ahead most of the Hunter Valley in NSW will be shut down.  Adani must be back handing someone plenty of dollars to secure the deal of a lifetime...Free, unlimited, unregulated water for the life of the plant...while every food producing farmer pays through the nose.  The same as every house, business and town in Qld...what a f,en joke.

proven how?  would like to see the sources on that particular claim...

plenty of houses, businesses and towns in QLD are counting on projects like this one for survival...

but i guess that doesn't matter...

easy to criticise when your livelihood isn't counting on projects like this one.

totally agree that some aspects of the adani project (like the water issue you have highlighted) are not as they should be, but it's a bit rich that some seem to completely disregard the opinions and comments from those that will actually benefit from projects like this.

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on January 24, 2019, 04:26:31 PM
proven how?  would like to see the sources on that particular claim...

plenty of houses, businesses and towns in QLD are counting on projects like this one for survival...

but i guess that doesn't matter...

easy to criticise when your livelihood isn't counting on projects like this one. Criticise a project that is shrouded in secrecy, is trying to get Australian taxpayers dollars to get it going, has openly lied about its environmental studies, will pay stuff all tax thanks to its Irish and Cayman Islands business set ups. If it was a viable, self supporting business that supported local business,s, land owners and paid its fair tax share then good.  But it is so far removed from these ideals. Who is going to benefit?  About 1000 workers..even then that will dwindle with automation taking jobs.  They will also completely annihilate perfectly good farming land. They will cause swamps and streams to disappear.  All this for a product that is trying to be phased out globally.

totally agree that some aspects of the adani project (like the water issue you have highlighted) are not as they should be, but it's a bit rich that some seem to completely disregard the opinions and comments from those that will actually benefit from projects like this.

I do a fair bit of reading with regards to rip-off organisations and the sensational statements they make in trying to secure Oz public support or confidence.  Adani is just a huge organisation that couldn't give fu&$ about Australia or anyone else. They are as good at bullShitting as trump himself.

Heres just one of many article (Canberra Times) about the effects.  Perhaps you need to google adani a bit more Paceman...there is so much negativity out there that its beyond the joke. Just the huge unregulated waste of our valuable water resource should be enough to haly this proposed project...why should everyone in Qld pay many hundreds of dollars for water every year when this cowboy bunch can get unlimited amounts for nothing?

'Threat to jobs'
Australia has a pipeline of approved coal mines that stretches into the 2040s. If we stopped approving new coal mines, the effect on employment would be 0.04 per cent. That's because despite exporting lots of coal, coal mining employs few people – 99 per cent of Australians don't work in coal mining – and new mines threaten these existing jobs.

There have many claims – mostly dodgy – about the jobs the mine will create. It's 10,000 out of court, though under oath Adani admitted it is only 1464. But the government has been conspicuously silent on the jobs Adani's mine threatens.

First, there's the obvious threat to the 70,000 jobs that depend on the Great Barrier Reef. The beauty of the reef is so exquisite it has moved people to tears. But now it's the scientists weeping as they survey the death and decay of one of the natural wonders of the world.

Severe and consecutive bleaching events over the past two years, caused by global-warming heated ocean waters, has seen 93 per cent of the reefs experience bleaching. Building a mega coal mine next door to the reef is the opposite of protecting the many small businesses and tourism and fishing operators whose jobs rely on protecting this natural wonder.

Second, the Adani mine is a direct threat to existing coal jobs in NSW and elsewhere in Queensland. Australia is the Saudi Arabia of coal. We have a larger share of the seaborne coal market than Saudi Arabia has of the world oil market. In Paris, the world promised to use less coal. So what would adding the world's biggest export coal mine do to a market with flat or declining demand?

"Bringing on additional tonnes with the aid of taxpayer money would materially increase the risk to existing coal operations," said Peter Freyberg, of commodity trading giant Glencore. In other words, Adani threatens existing coal jobs in NSW's Hunter Valley and Illawarra, and elsewhere in Queensland.


Honestly Paceman....do yourself a favour and check out the chequered past of this Adani outfit and just see the bullShit the greedy bastards spread.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: paceman on January 24, 2019, 04:42:13 PM


Honestly Paceman....do yourself a favour and check out the chequered past of this Adani outfit and just see the bullShit the greedy bastards spread.

I’ve done my fair share of reading... but thanks for the tip.

I don’t just take what I read in the papers and hear from politicians as gospel.  I try to get information from all sides and try to take all views and real life data and information into account, not just the rhetoric...

There’s enough evidence on both sides, regarding Adani in particular and the reasoning behind the renewables push, to have an informed opinion that might be in contrast to the loud majority.

It’s our prerogative to each have our own opinion on these matters.

What is funny is that if you are someone who dares speak against the loud majority, you are immediately labelled a denier or someone who isn’t capable of rational thought.

I’m neither of those things, just like I don’t believe that you are incapable of rational thought, either.

Enjoy the rest of your day. 



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on January 24, 2019, 04:57:27 PM
One small point.....some of the Hunter Valley coal is coking coal....good quality and used for making steel, not feeding power stations.

No matter what anyone believes in, we are NOT ready yet for coal fired power stations to be done away with. Anyone good with sums ?? Work out how we can supply 600Mw of power one hot evening at 9pm with solar or wind ?? Solve that without a coal fired power station and you will be one rich person..

There are rumblings of a new coal fired station needed in NSW, especially in light of Hazelwood and soon Liddell closing. Even Nuclear !!

I said it 5 yrs ago, I believe a new incarnation of safe Nuclear will be the savior of the planet, not solar or wind, but they will just be a stop gap for a few years.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on January 24, 2019, 05:05:36 PM
One small point.....some of the Hunter Valley coal is coking coal....good quality and used for making steel, not feeding power stations.

No matter what anyone believes in, we are NOT ready yet for coal fired power stations to be done away with. Anyone good with sums ?? Work out how we can supply 600Mw of power one hot evening at 9pm with solar or wind ?? Solve that without a coal fired power station and you will be one rich person..

There are rumblings of a new coal fired station needed in NSW, especially in light of Hazelwood and soon Liddell closing. Even Nuclear !!

I said it 5 yrs ago, I believe a new incarnation of safe Nuclear will be the savior of the planet, not solar or wind, but they will just be a stop gap for a few years.

I also would like to see  some sort of nuclear power.  Renewables will be a major player in the future but I also believe we need some sort of system that can provide quick, safe and cheap power in a short period of time.  Battery technology will also go ahead in leaps and bounds. Already the writing is on the wall for lithium. Solid state batteries will be common within 5-7 years and different, cheap battery banks for houses will also be available at nowwhere near the cost of lithium.

Like you Paceman..I am a sceptic....but only when I havent found out enough information to make a decision as to what I believe.  .  I put Adani in the same basket as trump and that other wonderful human bean..Palmer...rubbish basket that is..

Cheers. :cheers:
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pottsy on January 24, 2019, 05:30:19 PM
Definitely need more coal and to do something quickly about alternatives ( nuclear ) because the AustralianEnergy Market numbers tell the tale.
As at 24/1 5.25pm we are generating approx 32,000 megawatts of power with only 1887 megawatts of wind and solar alternatives.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on January 24, 2019, 05:46:13 PM
Definitely need more coal and to do something quickly about alternatives ( nuclear ) because the AustralianEnergy Market numbers tell the tale.
As at 24/1 5.25pm we are generating approx 32,000 megawatts of power with only 1887 megawatts of wind and solar alternatives.

No worries...we have hbig reserves of diesel.....oops...well at enough for 30 days!  The govt has absolutely no idea about Australias power needs or its future direction.  No wonder we are the quarry of the world..
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on January 24, 2019, 05:48:14 PM
Quote from: Bigfish
No worries...we have hbig reserves of diesel.....oops...well at enough for 30 days!  The govt has absolutely no idea about Australias power needs or its future direction.  No wonder we are the quarry of the world..

they are only concerned about getting reelected the next election.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on January 25, 2019, 02:47:08 PM
Load shedding has started in VIC.

Reason?
3 existing thermal power generators failed last night and this morning.
Then the weather got hotter and stayed hotter then expected and the existing thermal power generators could not continue working at full capacity and output was cut but 18,000mW.


Going to have to add another line to that war cry of “reliable, dispatchable power supply”.
And include something about actually working when it’s hot and sunny.

I have no idea what sort of power generation works best when it’s hot and sunny, perhaps one day someone will figure that one out.... ;)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: plusnq on January 25, 2019, 04:08:49 PM
Load shedding has started in VIC.

Reason?
3 existing thermal power generators failed last night and this morning.
Then the weather got hotter and stayed hotter then expected and the existing thermal power generators could not continue working at full capacity and output was cut but 18,000mW.


Going to have to add another line to that war cry of “reliable, dispatchable power supply”.
And include something about actually working when it’s hot and sunny.

I have no idea what sort of power generation works best when it’s hot and sunny, perhaps one day someone will figure that one out.... ;)



 ;D ;D ;D :cup: :cup: :cup: :cup:
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: paceman on January 25, 2019, 04:26:52 PM
Load shedding has started in VIC.

Reason?
3 existing thermal power generators failed last night and this morning.
Then the weather got hotter and stayed hotter then expected and the existing thermal power generators could not continue working at full capacity and output was cut but 18,000mW.


Going to have to add another line to that war cry of “reliable, dispatchable power supply”.
And include something about actually working when it’s hot and sunny.

I have no idea what sort of power generation works best when it’s hot and sunny, perhaps one day someone will figure that one out.... ;)

Probably the same one that works at night or when the wind stops?

Or maybe the one that has a battery that lasts for a whole hour for the whole state?

Mate, I get it.  You think I’m just some crackpot who thinks coal is the only answer.

That’s cool.  You’re obviously much smarter than plenty of people, including me, because it’s obviously such an easy problem to solve.

Look back on my posts and find where I have ever said that coal was the only answer...

It’s ridiculous and flat out inflammatory comments like yours that make this whole discussion, not a discussion at all.

Oh and one more thing... maybe just check how many units of coal generation were running and their output, compared to the wind and solar...

Be thankful there was some coal generation at all, because if we had to rely on solar and wind, there’d be plenty less power to go around.

Also, when qld had their recent heatwave conditions, I can’t remember us having the power problems that other states have had.  I wonder why...

Enjoy your day...


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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: D4D on January 25, 2019, 04:35:40 PM
I've got the answer, we get Clive Palmer to send every Aussie a txt with his new policy of building a nuclear power station.  :cup:
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on January 25, 2019, 04:49:23 PM
Probably the same one that works at night or when the wind stops?

Or maybe the one that has a battery that lasts for a whole hour for the whole state?

Mate, I get it.  You think I’m just some crackpot who thinks coal is the only answer.

That’s cool.  You’re obviously much smarter than plenty of people, including me, because it’s obviously such an easy problem to solve.

Look back on my posts and find where I have ever said that coal was the only answer...

It’s ridiculous and flat out inflammatory comments like yours that make this whole discussion, not a discussion at all.

Oh and one more thing... maybe just check how many units of coal generation were running and their output, compared to the wind and solar...

Be thankful there was some coal generation at all, because if we had to rely on solar and wind, there’d be plenty less power to go around.

Also, when qld had their recent heatwave conditions, I can’t remember us having the power problems that other states have had.  I wonder why...

Enjoy your day...


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Settle petal...

Back off with all the personal stuff mate. Nothing in my throw away comment was directed at anyone, especially not at you.

I meant nothing more then what I wrote, which I’ve read again and can’t see where I attacked anyone.

As I wrote, the weather got hot, the old crappy power stations couldn’t cope and people got their aircons turned off.
The fact that output from thermal power gets greatly reduced in extreme heat is worth noting in this discussion (and as far as I’m concerned this is a discussion, not an attack on anyone’s right to their opinion).

If you keep reading every post as if it’s directed at you it will send you mad mate.
Besides it’s those Mexicans that should be hot under the collars right now, us Queenslanders are living in the goldy locks zone at the moment.
A little bit of rain would be nice, but I’ve been working in my shed all day and just a little desk fan has been more then enough to keep me cool. ;)

Have a nice day. ;D

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: JusyApples on January 25, 2019, 05:28:36 PM
I gave up debating Pete a long time ago. More left then Shane Warnes mystery ball.

Build more coal power stations, the rest of the world are doing it, they are using our coal to feed it.

Build some nuclear ones as well and take advantage of our uranium deposits.

South Australians are paying the highest energy prices in the world.

Renewables they said it will be great they said.



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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on January 25, 2019, 05:56:50 PM
Quote from: JusyApples
Build more coal power stations, the rest of the world are doing it, they are using our coal to feed it.
its too obvious for some. and other countries thank us for our coal with open arms... while we have blackouts.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on January 25, 2019, 06:06:11 PM
its too obvious for some. and other countries thank us for our coal with open arms... while we have blackouts.

It wouldn,t matter if we had treble the number of power stations Bird.  The pollies would still have the whole power supply system ****ed anyway.  As we are the worlds quarry..it only matters that our precious ground products are ripped out and sold off as quick as we can.  The future generations dont count for anything.  No point planning for the future when we can live like kings now! 
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on January 25, 2019, 06:29:11 PM
I gave up debating Pete a long time ago. More left then Shane Warnes mystery ball.

Nothing wrong with engaging people with different opinions to your own, is far more interesting than living in an echo chamber and gives you the opportunity to either learn something, or refine your argument.

And yes Pete is a seems a little left, but if you think he is far left, I think you are mistaken.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on January 25, 2019, 06:37:33 PM
Now engaging with Pete's comment.

Load shedding has started in VIC.

Reason?
3 existing thermal power generators failed last night and this morning.
Then the weather got hotter and stayed hotter then expected and the existing thermal power generators could not continue working at full capacity and output was cut but 18,000mW.


Going to have to add another line to that war cry of “reliable, dispatchable power supply”.
And include something about actually working when it’s hot and sunny.

I have no idea what sort of power generation works best when it’s hot and sunny, perhaps one day someone will figure that one out.... ;)

The issue with this is the time of day that energy demand peaks, which from what I have seen is in the evening when guess what has packed up its bag for the night

And I noticed you said "failed last night" maybe because they had to do the heavy lifting due to another form having pulled up stumps for the night.  ;D
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on January 25, 2019, 06:41:51 PM
It wouldn,t matter if we had treble the number of power stations Bird.  The pollies would still have the whole power supply system ****ed anyway.  As we are the worlds quarry..it only matters that our precious ground products are ripped out and sold off as quick as we can.  The future generations dont count for anything.  No point planning for the future when we can live like kings now!

We can certainly plan for the future, but we need to also live NOW.  If we are happy to have blackouts as our normal life, then we continue on as we are now......or if we want stable power ( like we want the comfort of turning on the air con ) then we need more baseload power....NOW.....
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on January 25, 2019, 06:47:55 PM
We can certainly plan for the future, but we need to also live NOW.  If we are happy to have blackouts as our normal life, then we continue on as we are now......or if we want stable power ( like we want the comfort of turning on the air con ) then we need more baseload power....NOW.....

But we knew that 10 years ago...as I said ..the pollies are only interested in their wallets.  I plan ahead for many of my life events. The same as how I run my house. Shit...if a pissant like me can plan for the future why cant the overpaid, greedy blood sucking pricks in Canberra do the same...? >:D >:D >:D
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: lloydus67 on January 25, 2019, 06:52:18 PM
The problem is clearly you can’t expect 50+ year old coal fired power stations to work at the capacy they did when new. It’s a 25-30 year investment to build a new power station, to replace the old failing ones. No one is going to put up that kind of investment, when the future for coal fired power stations looks uncertain over the next 10 years


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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on January 25, 2019, 06:58:04 PM
Now engaging with Pete's comment.

The issue with this is the time of day that energy demand peaks, which from what I have seen is in the evening when guess what has packed up its bag for the night

And I noticed you said "failed last night" maybe because they had to do the heavy lifting due to another form having pulled up stumps for the night.  ;D
Thanks mate. I like to think your previous comment is pretty much on the mark. ;)


And the specific reason I made my comment was the time of day that it happened.
The way I understood the announcement was that during extreme heat events traditional thermal power generators cannot operate at full capacity.
My tongue in cheek, non personal comment was that solar or thermal solar would be the perfect support system for this current flaw in our power generation network.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Kangaron on January 25, 2019, 07:19:49 PM


Build some nuclear ones as well and take advantage of our uranium deposits.



Some sense at last.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on January 25, 2019, 07:57:29 PM


The way I understood the announcement was that during extreme heat events traditional thermal power generators cannot operate at full capacity.


I know that it was a tongue in cheek comment, but it's funny how some might actually believe the above comment !!
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on January 25, 2019, 07:59:51 PM
The problem is clearly you can’t expect 50+ year old coal fired power stations to work at the capacy they did when new.


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Yes they can....if maintained properly. This can change a bit when we sell OUR assets to private enterprise !!
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pottsy on January 25, 2019, 08:09:24 PM
Yes they can....if maintained properly. This can change a bit when we sell OUR assets to private enterprise !!

Got to wonder then why Playford at Pt Augusta which was commissioned in 1985 was decommissioned in past few years and demolished. 520mwh lost to the state, yes brown coal but still a substantial asset, had to run back up diesel gens yesterday at huge costs to the state.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on January 25, 2019, 09:20:01 PM
Got to wonder then why Playford at Pt Augusta which was commissioned in 1985 was decommissioned in past few years and demolished. 520mwh lost to the state, yes brown coal but still a substantial asset, had to run back up diesel gens yesterday at huge costs to the state.

Yep, gotta wonder why ?
Title: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on January 26, 2019, 12:45:14 AM
I know that it was a tongue in cheek comment, but it's funny how some might actually believe the above comment !!

Just 1 of many Gas fired power plant studies;
Quote
In particular, the study assesses the effect of ambient temperature in the context of the electricity system in Mexico and proposes supplementary firing in the heat recovery steam generator to mitigate reduction in power output. For ambient temperature varying from ?5 °C to 45 °C, a typical temperature variation in the north of Mexico, the efficiency of the NGCC with CO2 capture reduces from 50.95% to 48.01% when the temperature increased from 15 °C (ISO design condition) to 45 °C, and reduces from 50.95% to 50.78% when the temperature decreased from 15 °C to ?5 °C.

The power generated decreases from 676.3 MW at 15 °C to 530 MW at 45 °C.

 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360544217307661 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360544217307661)
That’s a big loss of out put caused by the same temperatures that Victoria and SA have been getting these last few days.

Just 1 of many studies on coal fired power plants;
Quote
THE EFFECT OF AMBIENT TEMPERATURE TO POWER PLANT EFFICIENCY
Figure 5 shows the effect of ambient temperature on the energy and exergy efficiencies of the power plant when constant condenser pressure approach is used. Figure 6 shows the same results but when variable condenser pressure approach is taken into account. As shown, the energy efficiency is constant in the case of using constant pressure in the condenser but it decreases with ambient temperature when variable condenser pressure is taken into account. The exergy efficiencies decrease in both cases but the rate of reduction is higher when variable condenser pressure approach is taken into account. Actual data from the power plant agree with variable pressure approach in the condenser.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190125/a6ec88a74a10976057b9db502c3d57a7.png)
 http://psrcentre.org/images/extraimages/3.%20412700.pdf (http://psrcentre.org/images/extraimages/3.%20412700.pdf)
Coal power plants are not as bad as gas, but still clearly effected by ambient temperatures.



And Tryagain was absolutely right. I never would have expected to be reading pages and pages of scientific studies on power plants. But I had heard the comment many times in the past that thermal power stations don’t like hot weather and I finally did some investigating tonight.

So thanks for disagreeing with my point. I’ve learned some stuff tonight.....
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: GeoffA on January 26, 2019, 05:52:12 AM
All good stuff Pete, but solar panel efficiency also drops as temps rise.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on January 26, 2019, 06:24:54 AM
All good stuff Pete, but solar panel efficiency also drops as temps rise.

 :cheers:

As does nearly everything else on earth...including us nupnup human beans..
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: GeoffA on January 26, 2019, 06:42:37 AM
As does nearly everything else on earth...including us nupnup human beans..

Yep.

Wind turbines usually don't spin on hot days 'cos there's either too much wind, or not enough.....

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on January 26, 2019, 07:48:11 AM


So thanks for disagreeing with my point. I’ve learned some stuff tonight.....

You have.....but my "general" comment was just that.
In high temps, going by that essay on reduced efficiency , all they do is increase the output of the power station, as they generally never run at full steam.......unless you can find another essay that says otherwise..... ;D ;D
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on January 26, 2019, 07:52:40 AM
Yep.

Wind turbines usually don't spin on hot days 'cos there's either too much wind, or not enough.....

 :cheers:

So we get a hot windless day, overcast , and the greenies have closed all our power stations........??

How big was that Tesla battery again ??  :'(
Title: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on January 26, 2019, 07:54:39 AM
You have.....but my "general" comment was just that.
In high temps, going by that essay on reduced efficiency , all they do is increase the output of the power station, as they generally never run at full steam.......unless you can find another essay that says otherwise.....
We’ll have to save that one for another insomnia night.

But you could be right.
If they don’t run plants at full capacity to give them a safety buffer in good times.
Then if they ramp them right up and max them out when they’re running inefficiently in the heat, that would perfectly explain why they fail so much in heat waves...


Edit;
I noticed in my studies last night that one of the coal fired power stations that failed in VIC yesterday, has consistently failed in several previous heat events. It was the second time this year that plant fell over.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pottsy on January 26, 2019, 10:52:25 AM
So we get a hot windless day, overcast , and the greenies have closed all our power stations........??

How big was that Tesla battery again ??  :'(

Hornsdale at Jamestown 120mwh and another to come on line at lake Bonney in the SE at 52mwh.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Fizzie on January 26, 2019, 10:57:14 AM
In high temps, going by that essay on reduced efficiency , all they do is increase the output of the power station, as they generally never run at full steam.......unless you can find another essay that says otherwise..... ;D ;D

They try to avoid it, but from Whirlpool at 4.50pm Thursday

"Well hats off to the team at TIPS (Torrens Island Power Station) – 1,245MW output out of 1,320MW. Doing damn well IMO."

It's even better – the actual plant capacity is 1280 MW not 1320 :-)

The "A" station units have hit 100% of their original (1967) rated capacity by the way. :o

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Fizzie on January 26, 2019, 11:01:58 AM
Besides it’s those Mexicans that should be hot under the collars right now, us Queenslanders are living in the goldy locks zone at the moment.

& over these last couple of days, it's been excess generation from Qld that has pretty well kept NSW & Vic from collapsing altogether 8)

Reckon they should throw the State of Origin to say thanks :-*
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Fizzie on January 26, 2019, 11:16:35 AM
Got to wonder then why Playford at Pt Augusta which was commissioned in 1985 was decommissioned in past few years and demolished.

This, together with Northern & Hazlewood, were all closed because their foreign ::) owners (partially / mainly Govts of France, China & Singapore >:() decided that they were no longer profitable enough to keep operating >:(

Keep supplying power to the people of Australia ??? Nah, don't give two stuffs about that, we're only interested in maximum $ for minimum expenditure >:(

Build more coal power stations,

No one is going to put up that kind of investment, when the future for coal fired power stations looks uncertain over the next 10 years

No, so if anybody wants to build one, it will have to be funded by Oz Govt, either State or Federal.

& you can see it now, 10 years in advance ...

The Laberal Party decides to fund & build a new $3 billion power station. They get thrown out at the next election & the first thing the incoming Libeur Party does is announce that they always opposed wasting so much money on an already obsolete, unneeded (because we haven't had a blackout in the last 6 months ::) white elephant, so they're going to sell it to private enterprise to operate. Guess who buys it ??? Then 30 years further down the track, when it's approaching needed mid-life maintenance upgrades, what happens ??? >:( :'(

Power supply should never have been tendered out to private enterprise, who's only interest is $ ::)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on January 26, 2019, 12:07:45 PM
Quote from: Fizzie
No, so if anybody wants to build one, it will have to be funded by Oz Govt, either State or Federal.

& you can see it now, 10 years in advance ...

The Laberal Party decides to fund & build a new $3 billion power station. They get thrown out at the next election & the first thing the incoming Libeur Party does is announce that they always opposed wasting so much money on an already obsolete, unneeded (because we haven't had a blackout in the last 6 months ::) white elephant, so they're going to sell it to private enterprise to operate. Guess who buys it ??? Then 30 years further down the track, when it's approaching needed mid-life maintenance upgrades, what happens ??? >:( :'(

Power supply should never have been tendered out to private enterprise, who's only interest is $ ::)
hes seen the future....  which one are you/????
(http://www.voxy.co.nz/files/imagecache/article_extra_large/files/doctors.jpg)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: GeoffA on January 26, 2019, 12:53:03 PM
This, together with Northern & Hazlewood, were all closed because their foreign ::) owners (partially / mainly Govts of France, China & Singapore >:() decided that they were no longer profitable enough to keep operating >:(

Keep supplying power to the people of Australia ??? Nah, don't give two stuffs about that, we're only interested in maximum $ for minimum expenditure >:(......

Hazelwood's fate was sealed when Red Dan tripled the excise on brown coal.....
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pottsy on January 26, 2019, 01:29:49 PM
Hazelwood's fate was sealed when Red Dan tripled the excise on brown coal.....

As was Northern when the Weatherill govt decided on going down the renewables road in SA.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on January 26, 2019, 06:54:22 PM


Power supply should never have been tendered out to private enterprise, who's only interest is $ ::)

Even the average joe blow in the street could see that....BUT, for short term profit, the pollies look good when they can bank roll a project, then what have you got left....a privately owned company holding you to ransom !!

1st it was coal mines, then the power stations, then the roads, then the hospitals, then the aged care.....do we own anything anymore ??
Us dumb "normal" people can see what was going on....why is it so hard for the pollies to understand ??????
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: austastar on January 26, 2019, 07:29:15 PM
Hi,
   Is it that the can see their pension at the end of the tunnel?
Cheers

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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on January 26, 2019, 07:50:03 PM
I don't think state owned power really helps https://www.afr.com/news/politics/stateowned-power-companies-entrench-high-prices-says-australian-energy-regulator-20170718-gxdd1z (https://www.afr.com/news/politics/stateowned-power-companies-entrench-high-prices-says-australian-energy-regulator-20170718-gxdd1z)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on January 26, 2019, 09:39:11 PM
I don't think state owned power really helps https://www.afr.com/news/politics/stateowned-power-companies-entrench-high-prices-says-australian-energy-regulator-20170718-gxdd1z (https://www.afr.com/news/politics/stateowned-power-companies-entrench-high-prices-says-australian-energy-regulator-20170718-gxdd1z)
so if it aint Gov co owned, and private has proved to be a flop... who should run it ???
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on January 26, 2019, 11:10:44 PM
so if it aint Gov co owned, and private has proved to be a flop... who should run it ???

Without giving it to much thought I'd say privately run with the right policy requirements in place.
I think the situation we find ourselves in with power issues probably has many causes, but if I were to point the finger, it would be at the previous SA Gov and the current Vic one for speeding up the demise of coal fired power plant when renewables + storage aren't yet economically viable alternatives.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: GeoffA on January 27, 2019, 05:15:00 AM
Without giving it to much thought I'd say privately run with the right policy requirements in place.
I think the situation we find ourselves in with power issues probably has many causes, but if I were to point the finger, it would be at the previous SA Gov and the current Vic one for speeding up the demise of coal fired power plant when renewables + storage aren't yet economically viable alternatives. being idiots.....

Fixed it for ya ..... ;D
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on January 27, 2019, 02:56:14 PM
https://www.theage.com.au/world/europe/german-plan-to-phase-out-coal-would-cost-a-cool-64-billion-20190127-p50tx5.html (https://www.theage.com.au/world/europe/german-plan-to-phase-out-coal-would-cost-a-cool-64-billion-20190127-p50tx5.html)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on January 27, 2019, 03:10:43 PM
https://www.theage.com.au/world/europe/german-plan-to-phase-out-coal-would-cost-a-cool-64-billion-20190127-p50tx5.html (https://www.theage.com.au/world/europe/german-plan-to-phase-out-coal-would-cost-a-cool-64-billion-20190127-p50tx5.html)

If you could come up with a design to cheaply store power with minimal environmental impact and patent it you could become a billionaire overnight.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Fizzie on January 28, 2019, 09:28:52 AM
https://www.theage.com.au/world/europe/german-plan-to-phase-out-coal-would-cost-a-cool-64-billion-20190127-p50tx5.html (https://www.theage.com.au/world/europe/german-plan-to-phase-out-coal-would-cost-a-cool-64-billion-20190127-p50tx5.html)

"each of the interest groups had accepted concessions with an eye to achieving a result."

Ahh, well, that wipes out any chance of anything similar ever happening in Australia >:D
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: moeite on January 28, 2019, 11:31:59 AM
Hazelwood's fate was sealed when Red Dan tripled the excise on brown coal.....

Nope. The reason Hazelwood closed is that to bring it up to REQUIRED minimum safety standards would cost Engie between $400m and $1b dollars. Engie said at the time that if they could get all the coal for nothing it would STILL not be a viable proposition.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: GeoffA on January 28, 2019, 12:15:50 PM
Nope. The reason Hazelwood closed is that to bring it up to REQUIRED minimum safety standards would cost Engie between $400m and $1b dollars. Engie said at the time that if they could get all the coal for nothing it would STILL not be a viable proposition.

Who imposed the "REQUIRED minimum safety standards"?

Did it comply with the standards of the day when they bought it?
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: moeite on January 28, 2019, 12:44:33 PM
Who imposed the "REQUIRED minimum safety standards"?

Worksafe Victoria
Quote
Did it comply with the standards of the day when they bought it?

Yes - only just though. They only did the bare minimum maintenance. Worksafe went through the place and found a heap of corrosion, cracked welds, etc. and required Engie to complete major repairs to five of the eight units. To do the work the five units would need to be offline for in excess of three months. That loss of generating capacity for that period was NOT factored into the cost of the required work.
When Engie purchased Hazelwood even Blind Freddie could've seen that it was an ageing plant that would need MAJOR work in the not too distant future.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: DrewXT on January 28, 2019, 01:51:54 PM
Some sense at last.
Three strategically placed "clean" reactors would fix the entire country's baseload issue, and mean that our coal fired generators could be used to service peak load times.

I find it amusing that both sides of government touts solar and wind as a solution, yet one is useless in the dark, and the other when it's not windy.

My wife and I have been looking to import a really aesthically pleasing wind turbine from Europe, but the paperwork to even start discussions, OMFG...

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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: GeoffA on January 28, 2019, 01:55:41 PM
Yes - only just though. They only did the bare minimum maintenance....

I was involved in the PLE that was done in the late '80's. It was old then....

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on January 28, 2019, 02:05:42 PM
Three strategically placed "clean" reactors would fix the entire country's baseload issue, and mean that our coal fired generators could be used to service peak load times.

I find it amusing that both sides of government touts solar and wind as a solution, yet one is useless in the dark, and the other when it's not windy.

My wife and I have been looking to import a really aesthically pleasing wind turbine from Europe, but the paperwork to even start discussions, OMFG...

The issue is modern "clean" coal-fired power plants aren't as cheap as an old one that's still operating. Solar and wind have dropped dramatically in price and are cheaper than new coal-fired power plants, the issue is that as you point out they are intermittent. Power storage is likely to drop in price a whole lot in the near future which will likely see solar and wind plus storage being cheaper than a new "clean" Coal-fired power plant so they now have to sell cheaper to compete, and the ROI just isn't there resulting in a loss for whoever builds it. 

And the issue of using Coal-fired power plants intermittently is they are a bit like a freight train, good when they are running but take a lot of time and effort to get started and then stop again.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: DrewXT on January 28, 2019, 05:36:02 PM
The issue is modern "clean" coal-fired power plants aren't as cheap as an old one that's still operating. Solar and wind have dropped dramatically in price and are cheaper than new coal-fired power plants, the issue is that as you point out they are intermittent. Power storage is likely to drop in price a whole lot in the near future which will likely see solar and wind plus storage being cheaper than a new "clean" Coal-fired power plant so they now have to sell cheaper to compete, and the ROI just isn't there resulting in a loss for whoever builds it. 

And the issue of using Coal-fired power plants intermittently is they are a bit like a freight train, good when they are running but take a lot of time and effort to get started and then stop again.
I meant clean nukes, not coal fired... Rather than lease our uranium and bring it back to have to dispose of it from dirty reactors, we could build cleaner reactors than those we lease to, and dispose of what we use ourselves

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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on January 28, 2019, 05:41:44 PM
Power storage is likely to drop in price a whole lot in the near future which will likely see solar and wind plus storage being cheaper

What have we at the moment for power storage ??

A couple of AAA's in south australia and a small hydro in qld that can pump back up again. ???
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: DrewXT on January 28, 2019, 06:34:01 PM
What have we at the moment for power storage ??

A couple of AAA's in south australia and a small hydro in qld that can pump back up again. ???
Snowy Hydro and Tassie Hydro as well

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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on January 28, 2019, 07:35:03 PM
Snowy Hydro and Tassie Hydro as well

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Tassie power doesn't help us over here and snowy hydro at best just ticks over in summer due to low water levels. I think you can google the snowy scheme and see how many turbines are working at any given time !
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on January 28, 2019, 09:09:37 PM
I meant clean nukes, not coal fired... Rather than lease our uranium and bring it back to have to dispose of it from dirty reactors, we could build cleaner reactors than those we lease to, and dispose of what we use ourselves

OK, that then makes more sense, I think the issue with Nuclear is cost and time to construct, if they had started building them 10yrs ago it would probably be a different scenario but I think the horse has bolted now as wind and solar plus storage is probably already cheaper than Nuclear, and their price trend is continuing down. That's all without considering Fukushima

We are lucky in that we have plentiful, coal, uranium, sunlight for solar, the raw materials used in lithium batteries etc here in Australia for power generation and storage, probably just don't have the rainfall to make hydro viable in too many places.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: DrewXT on January 28, 2019, 09:16:09 PM
Tassie power doesn't help us over here and snowy hydro at best just ticks over in summer due to low water levels. I think you can google the snowy scheme and see how many turbines are working at any given time !
AEMO have been showing Tassie exporting to the mainland at anything up to 15% of their capacity lately...

Their dashboard is quite intriguing to watch some days...

I'm just hoping that the 10kW system we're having installed this week gets rid of our power bill and hopefully our gas and water bills if I've calculated correctly...

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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on January 28, 2019, 09:47:48 PM
Tassie power doesn't help us over here and snowy hydro at best just ticks over in summer due to low water levels. I think you can google the snowy scheme and see how many turbines are working at any given time !
Tumit 3 is pumped hydro and there is the Shoalhaven hydropower station and the kidston pumped hydro you mentioned and the snowy 2.0 are in the pipeline as well as batteries but it's all relatively small so far compared to what will be needed.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Fizzie on January 29, 2019, 07:10:23 AM
Tassie power doesn't help us over here

AEMO have been showing Tassie exporting to the mainland at anything up to 15% of their capacity lately...

As drew says - Tassie does help NSW, just not directly.

Have a look at https://www.aemo.com.au/Electricity/National-Electricity-Market-NEM/Data-dashboard#nem-dispatch-overview (https://www.aemo.com.au/Electricity/National-Electricity-Market-NEM/Data-dashboard#nem-dispatch-overview), which shows virtually live data on where power is flowing at any time.

Right now, Vic has 5380MW demand, but is only generating 5350 itself. They are also receiving 56MW from SA + 77 from Tas, which is then allowing Vic to export 103MW into NSW, who is ~740 down on generation compared to demand (the rest is coming into NSW from Qld)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Fizzie on January 29, 2019, 07:33:34 AM
probably just don't have the rainfall to make hydro viable in too many places.

A lot of the pumped hydro plants they've been talking about are't going to rely on rainfall. The first plant currently under construction in SA is on the edge of the Bight so will be working on sea water.

According to NEMWatch (which is another fun site that shows what type of generation is actually happening at any time) https://reneweconomy.com.au/nem-watch/ (https://reneweconomy.com.au/nem-watch/), hydro is currently at 1132MW in Tas, 965 Vic, 136 NSW & 153 in Qld
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on January 29, 2019, 07:48:35 AM
A lot of the pumped hydro plants they've been talking about are't going to rely on rainfall. The first plant currently under construction in SA is on the edge of the Bight so will be working on sea water.

Yeah that's the difference between hydo which is what I was talking about Australia not having an abundance of possibilities of Hydro, pumped hydro is a different story. It has it's own environmental issues though.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Fizzie on January 29, 2019, 07:57:42 AM
Yeah that's the difference between hydo which is what I was talking about Australia not having an abundance of possibilities of Hydro, pumped hydro is a different story. It has it's own environmental issues though.

Sorry - misinterpreted :-[

Yes, there will be issues with PH, but everything says it has a much smaller footprint, which, in the majority of cases, won't involve flooding mountain valleys, so should be easier to get moving ???
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on January 29, 2019, 08:08:02 AM
Sorry - misinterpreted :-[

Yes, there will be issues with PH, but everything says it has a much smaller footprint, which, in the majority of cases, won't involve flooding mountain valleys, so should be easier to get moving ???

I personally can't see to much of it happening, most of the suitable sites what would also be considered areas of natural beauty and can't see people being happy to build them there, the fact that we have built so few dam's in recent times I think gives a glimpse of the environmental issues that will have to be faced, my guess would be predominantly Lithium Batteries. With some other's like pumped hydro thrown in  here and there.
The plus will be we will probably all have cheap lithium batteries in our campers in 5+ yrs time, much like we now have cheap solar panels.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: austastar on January 29, 2019, 08:08:13 AM
Hi,
    Pumped hydro can have minimal impact in some cases.
With sequential dams in a scheme, pumping water back up during periods of low demand can recharge the source supply.
It costs more in water, but can deliver higher peak loads if needed.
Cheers

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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on January 29, 2019, 08:19:54 AM
Meanwhile the successful countries just ****in do it while AU just sits on their arse talking Shit, and polly sscared of offending voters

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/china-coal-fired-power-station-buildup-2018-9 (https://www.businessinsider.com.au/china-coal-fired-power-station-buildup-2018-9)


then again with our Shit pollys - one party would take the initiate to start building - the opposition would get in next election and stop it. and like now, we'd get nowhere.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on January 29, 2019, 04:22:05 PM
Pumped hydro works in some countries like Demark because they can use "free" power  ( windmills ) to pump the water back up.
In a situation like the snowy, you are using power to pump it back up....when it could be used for the grid. If you pump during low demand, as said you waste water ( would be nice to only use as much as you pump, but it's not possible )

If anyone saw the massive water going over barron falls the other day, then there is the sort of water you need to fill a dam.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: macca on January 29, 2019, 04:49:53 PM
Why cant we use windmills?

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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on January 29, 2019, 05:05:44 PM
Why cant we use windmills?

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Because they’re ugly...... apparently....
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: macca on January 29, 2019, 05:08:16 PM
Because they’re ugly...... apparently....
What the Danes or their windmills?

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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on January 29, 2019, 05:15:03 PM
What the Danes or their windmills?

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Haha, Danes have some good stock. ;)

I was just quoting the former minister for ‘science is crap’....

Quote
Tony Abbott has launched another attack on "ugly", "noisy" wind turbines, and it appears a trip to an island off Perth contributed to his dislike of the renewable energy generators.

Mr Abbott is clearly not a fan of the visual impact.

"Frankly it's right and proper we've reduced the Renewable Energy Target because as things stood there was going to be an explosion of these things right around our country," Mr Abbott said.

"There will still be some growth but it will be much less than it would otherwise have been thanks to measures this Government has taken."

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: macca on January 29, 2019, 05:28:33 PM
Haha, Danes have some good stock. ;)

I was just quoting the former minister for ‘science is crap’....
Yeah, all TIC Pete,  my son inlaw is Danish it actually gets embarrassing talking to him sometimes, for a small country they are a lot more advanced than us in a lot of things. He just laughs and shakes his head at some of procrastination that our pollies go on with. I'll check out the windmills appearance when I go over in July and report back to ScoMo, if hes still in power

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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on January 29, 2019, 05:32:59 PM
Yeah, all TIC Pete,  my son inlaw is Danish it actually gets embarrassing talking to him sometimes, for a small country they are a lot more advanced than us in a lot of things. He just laughs and shakes his head at some of procrastination that our pollies go on with. I'll check out the windmills appearance when I go over in July and report back to ScoMo, if hes still in power

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I was over there last year enjoying their summer for a couple of weeks. Beautiful country and great people.
Enjoy.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: rags on January 29, 2019, 05:59:17 PM

If you pump during low demand, as said you waste water ( would be nice to only use as much as you pump, but it's not possible )



But that is the feature of SMH, it is more than a power plant. The original idea behind the scheme was for irrigation, power generation was a bonus outcome. No water is wasted as after the water passes through one of the 5 power stations it gets stored in either the Khancoban dam or Blowering dam before it is controlled released down river to serve both the Murray and Murrumbidgee irrigation network (and some conservation flows down the Snowy River).
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on January 29, 2019, 08:56:50 PM
But that is the feature of SMH, it is more than a power plant. The original idea behind the scheme was for irrigation, power generation was a bonus outcome. No water is wasted as after the water passes through one of the 5 power stations it gets stored in either the Khancoban dam or Blowering dam before it is controlled released down river to serve both the Murray and Murrumbidgee irrigation network (and some conservation flows down the Snowy River).

What was meant, the wasted water is what gets used to power the the pumps for repumping uphill. The water that goes downstream might be good for irrigation, but can't be reused for power generation.
During summer, not a lot gets used for either....all the snow has melted and unless good rains have added to the dams, most of the turbines are idle.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: rags on January 29, 2019, 09:21:01 PM
What was meant, the wasted water is what gets used to power the the pumps for repumping uphill. The water that goes downstream might be good for irrigation, but can't be reused for power generation.
During summer, not a lot gets used for either....all the snow has melted and unless good rains have added to the dams, most of the turbines are idle.

I haven't studied the scheme in recent years but did spend  a lot of time there in the 1980s with access to inspect with some people who worked at Cabramurra and Talbingo (Tumut ponds)
It was my understanding that there is only 1 pumping station which pumps water from Jindabyne through to the Snowy-Geehi Tunnel.
There is also a second pump  at Tumut 3 Power Station which can return water to Talbingo Reservoir.
The 7 power stations are effectively gravity feed, and it is why it is considered one of the worlds best engineering feats.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on January 29, 2019, 09:23:02 PM
What was meant, the wasted water is what gets used to power the the pumps for repumping uphill. The water that goes downstream might be good for irrigation, but can't be reused for power generation.
During summer, not a lot gets used for either....all the snow has melted and unless good rains have added to the dams, most of the turbines are idle.

If you haven't already seen it  (think I have posted it before) this vid is a good overview of SMH/Tumit 3/Pumped storage, from my understanding Snowy 2.0 is basically installing the pumps to pump some of that water back up the hill when power is cheap to then release it again when the grid prices are high. This normally happens now in the wee hours when the coal stations are still firing but there isn't much demand but will come from wind and solar in the future.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-21/pumped-hydro-renewable-energy-sites-australia-anu-research/8966530 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-21/pumped-hydro-renewable-energy-sites-australia-anu-research/8966530)

I should clarify I think the video is good but think the article about professor Blakers is deeply floored.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: rags on January 30, 2019, 11:35:22 AM
An interesting article on Snowy 2.0 published today on ABC
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-30/snowy-hydro/10683112 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-30/snowy-hydro/10683112)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on January 30, 2019, 10:08:00 PM
An interesting article on Snowy 2.0 published today on ABC
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-30/snowy-hydro/10683112 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-30/snowy-hydro/10683112)

Good article
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on January 31, 2019, 05:50:57 PM
An interesting article on Snowy 2.0 published today on ABC
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-30/snowy-hydro/10683112 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-30/snowy-hydro/10683112)

And for that sort of money, if it ever gets off the ground, we will farm it out to a foreign investor and pay thru the nose for the next 40 years !!

The concept sounds good, but the way we are going, there won't be any "spare" power to run the system .
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on February 01, 2019, 09:18:41 AM
Quote from: gronk
And for that sort of money, if it ever gets off the ground, we will farm it out to a foreign investor and pay thru the nose for the next 40 years !!

(http://oels.byu.edu/student/idioms/idioms/images/hit_nail_on_head.jpg)

actually for any money it will be sold off and we will then have more promises on how Gov co will force them to drop the price for us out of the goodness of their hearts.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on February 01, 2019, 10:42:26 AM
The concept sounds good, but the way we are going, there won't be any "spare" power to run the system .

This bit makes it sound like it shouldn't be an issue

Quote
The current rate of solar and wind development is “phenomenal”, according to Doctor Matthew Stocks from the ANU Energy Change Institute.

“If it continues, we are at 100 per cent renewables by 2030, never mind the targets that are being bandied about,” he said
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on February 16, 2019, 12:58:29 PM
The chinese have the solution
https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/plans-for-first-chinese-solar-power-station-in-space-revealed-20190214-p50xtg.html (https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/plans-for-first-chinese-solar-power-station-in-space-revealed-20190214-p50xtg.html)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bigfish on February 16, 2019, 02:51:06 PM

Oil and gas giant BP says renewable energy will rapidly become the world’s main source of power within the next 20 years, as the planet shifts towards a lower carbon future.
 
"The pace at which renewable energy penetrates the global energy system is faster than for any fuel in history," BP said in its latest annual Energy Outlook report.
 
The report looked at a number of scenarios for changing energy demand globally, and said in all forecasts there will be a massive boom in demand and more generation will be needed to supply it.
 
"The increase in energy over and above the evolving transition scenario is roughly the equivalent of China's entire energy consumption in 2017," it said.
 
BP said in all scenarios wind and solar will play an increasing role in keeping the lights on. But oil and gas will remain key fuels in the energy mix, with consumption peaking in the 2030s before demand falls off.
 
While coal demand will flatten in BP's least energy transformation aggressive scenario, the use of coal will see a sharp contraction in all other scenarios.
 
“The world of energy is changing. Renewables and natural gas together account for the great majority of growth in primary energy,” BP chief economist Spencer Dale said.
 
“In our evolving transition scenario, 85 per cent of new energy is lower carbon.”
 
BP chief executive Bob Dudley said the transition to renewables is inevitable.
 
“This outlook again brings into sharp focus just how fast the world’s energy systems are changing and how the dual challenge of more energy with fewer emissions is framing the future. Meeting this challenge will undoubtedly require many forms of energy to play a role,” Mr Dudley said.
 
“Predicting how this energy transition will evolve is a vast, complex challenge. In BP, we know the outcome that’s needed but we don’t know the exact path the transition will take.”
 
Renewable power in Australia now accounts for a fifth of all energy generated, the first time it has done so since the 1970s.
 
The latest Green Energy Markets report says renewable power levels punched through the 20 per cent market share threshold in 2018, although coal still accounts for more than 70 per cent of Australian power, leading to high carbon emissions from the energy sector.
 
Mr Dudley said strong leadership on energy policy - aimed at electricity generation - is needed from governments to ensure carbon emissions are reduced in line with the global Paris Agreement targets.
 
“Policies aimed at the power sector are central to achieving a material reduction in carbon emissions over the next 20 years,” Mr Dudley said.
 
He has also previously called for a price on carbon to drive down emissions created by the electricity industry.
 
“Put a price on carbon and you incentivize everyone to use less energy,” Mr Dudley said.
 
Fellow energy giant Shell's Australian chairman Zoe Yujnovich also made calls this week for a carbon price.
 
"Part of the role for government will be to encourage consumers and businesses into lower carbon choices," Ms Yujnovich said, "perhaps through government-led carbon-pricing mechanisms that avoid the pitfalls of previous designs."
Modify message
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: GeoffA on February 17, 2019, 06:16:10 AM
......
“Put a price on carbon and you incentivize everyone to use less energy,” Mr Dudley said.
......
"Part of the role for government will be to encourage consumers and businesses into lower carbon choices," Ms Yujnovich said, "perhaps through government-led carbon-pricing mechanisms that avoid the pitfalls of previous designs."

So, where does the money from the price on carbon end up?

Reeks of subsidy chasing......
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on February 17, 2019, 07:44:09 AM
A price on carbon ??  Is it calculated by the electricity used.....or by another method made up by pollies or "experts" ??
Just another method to tax people for using electricity.
Title: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: lloydus67 on February 17, 2019, 10:11:57 AM
When I lived and worked in the uk, I worked for a company called (edit probably shouldn’t name them on a public forum). At the time they were the only licensed traders for “carbon”
The way it worked was you worked out your carbon footprint, then we came along and made you more efficient, used those improvments in efficiency to leverage better tarrif rates and subsidies, then sold on the leftover carbon usage to less efficient businesses to save them being charged higher tax rates
Win win
Well except for possibly the environment, but the Pollies looked good and we were very profitable


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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: lloydus67 on February 17, 2019, 10:15:36 AM
A price on carbon ??  Is it calculated by the electricity used.....or by another method made up by pollies or "experts" ??
Just another method to tax people for using electricity.
It’s calculated on all energy used, electricity, gas, diesel, fuel oil, etc.


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Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: alnjan on February 17, 2019, 01:13:14 PM
A price on carbon ??  Is it calculated by the electricity used.....or by another method made up by pollies or "experts" ??
Just another method to tax people for using electricity.


What he said
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on February 17, 2019, 03:18:49 PM
what happened to the latest fashion 5-10yrs ago with everyone buying carbon credits here in AU LMAO... bet they feel stupid now
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on February 26, 2019, 10:20:38 AM
Looks like the Snowy 2.0 pumped hydro is getting the green light.

https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/groundbreaking-snowy-hydro-20-project-gets-the-goahead/news-story/83994e49171dbd8d6279934ab5de7642 (https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/groundbreaking-snowy-hydro-20-project-gets-the-goahead/news-story/83994e49171dbd8d6279934ab5de7642)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on February 26, 2019, 07:24:47 PM
Looks like the Snowy 2.0 pumped hydro is getting the green light.

https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/groundbreaking-snowy-hydro-20-project-gets-the-goahead/news-story/83994e49171dbd8d6279934ab5de7642 (https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/groundbreaking-snowy-hydro-20-project-gets-the-goahead/news-story/83994e49171dbd8d6279934ab5de7642)

When finished it would provide peak power for 500,000 homes ??

That's a lot of money for 1/18th of the homes in Australia.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: glenm64 on February 26, 2019, 07:29:24 PM
Looks like the Snowy 2.0 pumped hydro is getting the green light.

https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/groundbreaking-snowy-hydro-20-project-gets-the-goahead/news-story/83994e49171dbd8d6279934ab5de7642 (https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/groundbreaking-snowy-hydro-20-project-gets-the-goahead/news-story/83994e49171dbd8d6279934ab5de7642)
Must be an election coming up. Theres money falling from every tree at the moment.

Cheers Glen

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on February 26, 2019, 08:14:30 PM
Must be an election coming up. Theres money falling from every tree at the moment.

Cheers Glen

There is certainly that, this is one of the few things that actually has bipartisan support though as long as the business case stacked up. So suspect it would be going ahead even if it wasn't.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on February 26, 2019, 08:34:36 PM
When finished it would provide peak power for 500,000 homes ??

That's a lot of money for 1/18th of the homes in Australia.

It will provide 350,000MWh of storage, compare that to the Tesla big battery in SA which provides 130mWh and it goes some way to show the scale of it. Not a solution in and of itself but certainly a decent piece of the puzzle.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on February 26, 2019, 09:22:33 PM
It will provide 350,000MWh of storage, compare that to the Tesla big battery in SA which provides 130mWh and it goes some way to show the scale of it. Not a solution in and of itself but certainly a decent piece of the puzzle.

Even though it will use cheaper ( not cheap as advertised ) electricity in off peak times, this cost will be passed onto us. During summer, when the most load is normally needed, is when the dams are at their lowest, so I'd assume they have thought of that ?

They haven't even done the test tunnel yet, so this story is a bit premature....although probably rushed thru in time for the election !!
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Paddler Ed on February 27, 2019, 10:15:02 AM
Interesting piece from the SMH et al on the power companies who are doing well in the rankings:
https://www.smh.com.au/business/consumer-affairs/simple-deals-no-discounts-small-power-companies-beat-big-end-of-town-20190227-p510h3.html (https://www.smh.com.au/business/consumer-affairs/simple-deals-no-discounts-small-power-companies-beat-big-end-of-town-20190227-p510h3.html)

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on February 27, 2019, 10:24:10 AM
Interesting piece from the SMH et al on the power companies who are doing well in the rankings:
https://www.smh.com.au/business/consumer-affairs/simple-deals-no-discounts-small-power-companies-beat-big-end-of-town-20190227-p510h3.html (https://www.smh.com.au/business/consumer-affairs/simple-deals-no-discounts-small-power-companies-beat-big-end-of-town-20190227-p510h3.html)
Interesting, havent heard of many of those companies - the 'winner' in Vic sounds positive.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Paddler Ed on February 27, 2019, 10:36:45 AM
Interesting, havent heard of many of those companies - the 'winner' in Vic sounds positive.

Plug your details into here and see what it fires up - when I did it RedEnergy were the best option for me:
https://www.energymadeeasy.gov.au/ (https://www.energymadeeasy.gov.au/)

Just ran it back through again, and Red aren't the best option any longer, but with the deal I'm on, it's pretty close still once I get prompt payment taken into account ($20 in it)

Ed
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on February 27, 2019, 10:44:52 AM
Plug your details into here and see what it fires up - when I did it RedEnergy were the best option for me:
https://www.energymadeeasy.gov.au/ (https://www.energymadeeasy.gov.au/)

Just ran it back through again, and Red aren't the best option any longer, but with the deal I'm on, it's pretty close still once I get prompt payment taken into account ($20 in it)

Ed
will sus it later... sounds interesting.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on February 27, 2019, 12:45:11 PM
Must be an election coming up. Theres money falling from every tree at the moment.

Cheers Glen
You might be on to something there mate. ;)

Watching Lib pollies in Tassie right now promising more studies on another pumped hydro site down there.
You can physically see the pain in their faces as they’re saying how much they like renewable energy.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on February 27, 2019, 04:07:34 PM
You might be on to something there mate. ;)

Watching Lib pollies in Tassie right now promising more studies on another pumped hydro site down there.
You can physically see the pain in their faces as they’re saying how much they like renewable energy.

I think they will like wedging the likes of the Greens, especially Bob Brown who has a history of opposing daming rivers in Tas.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Fizzie on February 28, 2019, 09:37:09 AM
Interesting piece from the SMH et al on the power companies who are doing well in the rankings:

We've been with Diamond Energy for a couple of years now, & very happy with them, especially their solar FiT! 8)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Fizzie on February 28, 2019, 10:31:09 AM
Plug your details into here and see what it fires up - when I did it RedEnergy were the best option for me:
https://www.energymadeeasy.gov.au/ (https://www.energymadeeasy.gov.au/)

Just had a try & the results don't make sense to me ???

Punched in all my details & it came back to say AGL was $100 cheaper a year than Diamond, but by using my actual figures for Diamond, I can't work out how they came up with the figure they quoted as it's ~$200 a year more than I pay ???

Then tried in my own spreadsheet putting in AGL's plan figures & it works out ~$30/quarter more than I'm currently paying ???

While doing all this, also just got an e-mail that mentioned this: https://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/episodes/solar/10846360 (https://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/episodes/solar/10846360) :D
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: alnjan on March 01, 2019, 05:41:50 PM
https://finance.nine.com.au/2019/03/01/17/19/carnegie-clean-energy-wa-wave-power-company-suspended


Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on May 10, 2019, 05:56:20 PM
Did any other Queenslanders get a $50 credit on their power bills this month?

Did anyone get more then $50 from any other electricity company?

From the Energy Australia email I received this afternoon;

“Hello Peter

Thanks for being with us.

As part of our commitment to simple, more affordable energy, we support the Queensland Government’s Affordable Energy Plan. This means you’ll receive a $50 credit on your electricity account.”

Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Fizzie on May 11, 2019, 03:01:54 PM
Next bill refund :D (Diamond Energy) is due mid-June, so you've got me interested! :D
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: tryagain on September 23, 2019, 01:18:23 PM
Think I had derided neucular as too expensive and slow to bring online in the past, think I might have to change my tune a little after watching this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-yALPEpV4w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-yALPEpV4w)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: paceman on September 23, 2019, 01:48:43 PM
Think I had derided neucular as too expensive and slow to bring online in the past, think I might have to change my tune a little after watching this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-yALPEpV4w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-yALPEpV4w)

pretty much says it all.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: alnjan on September 23, 2019, 01:52:54 PM
Think I had derided neucular as too expensive and slow to bring online in the past, think I might have to change my tune a little after watching this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-yALPEpV4w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-yALPEpV4w)

Also watch this one. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0W1ZZYIV8o&t=632s
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on February 14, 2020, 09:05:29 PM
I’m very cautiously poking this sleeping bear..

But I just read an article saying that South Australia has been cut off from the rest of the national power grid since January 31st. ???

I know there’s been plenty of other big things happening around the country lately, but given the massive uproar last time those power lines got cut I was pretty surprised this one hadn’t gotten the slightest mention anywhere around here.

Apparently this time a 500kV transmission line was cut, much bigger than the 275kV lines hit by tornadoes before the South Australia system black in 2016.

The technical stuff is way over my head, but it sounds like the wind and batteries saved the day this time. Perhaps that’s why the usual shouty voices have been so quite.. ??? ;)

From the article;

“When the storms hit on the afternoon of January 31 South Australia had been exporting about 460MW of capacity to Victoria.
The loss of the link meant that South Australia had way too much generation and the event pushed frequency levels up dangerously high. But several wind farms responded – as they are now programmed to do – by immediately reducing their output.
And the batteries helped by immediately ramping up to charge and therefore add load to the grid – and then quickly change direction again as the frequency fluttered.

Some gas generators also responded, but the bulk of the instant response came from the wind farms, the three big batteries and two of the bigger solar farms. Rooftop solar also played a role, with inverters switching off – as they are now expected to do in such situations – adding to system demand, which is what the market operator wanted at the time.

Indeed, it was the speed and the accuracy of the inverter-based technologies that AEMO engineers say was the key to bringing the frequency excursion back under control, keeping the lights on and preventing the type of catastrophic result that occurred in the “system black” in September 2016.

What happened to South Australia is about as bad as it gets, but without coal, and without hydro, it has been managed in exemplary fashion. And it should be a tribute to good engineering, and an endorsement of renewable and battery technologies, and of the Liberal state government’s goal of reaching “net 100 per cent” renewables by 2030.”
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on February 14, 2020, 10:06:10 PM
?


The technical stuff is way over my head, but it sounds like the wind and batteries saved the day this time. Perhaps that’s why the usual shouty voices have been so quite.. ??? ;)



It all sounds pretty good.......but this event must have happened during the day.
Wind and solar doesn't run a state during the night, and the you beaut batteries only smooth out irregularities in the supply, and their gas isn't enough to run the state either.

Even though we don't look like going down a nuclear path anytime soon, the above video gives a good insight to the shortcomings of the  renewables some think will save the planet !!
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on February 14, 2020, 10:23:58 PM
Wind and solar doesn't run a state during the night, and the you beaut batteries only smooth out irregularities in the supply, and their gas isn't enough to run the state either.

South Australia is running totally self sufficiently, independent of the rest of the country.

Live data from tonight;

Wind is producing 805MW
Gas is producing 725MW
No other power supply is feeding South Australia right now this evening.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200214/51f702d6246a74ac20ba939851f9f6fc.jpg)

Not sure why you would say that wind doesn’t run a state at night.. ???
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on February 15, 2020, 07:32:45 AM
South Australia is running totally self sufficiently, independent of the rest of the

Not sure why you would say that wind doesn’t run a state at night.. ???

Umm, because nearly every night, the wind drops off and the turbine capacity drops off, making that output figure for wind look good.....but  doesn't tell you the output during the night.

As for being self sufficient, those figures state the whole of SA is running on 1300 Mw .....I'm sure there are more than 20,000 people living there.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Pete79 on February 15, 2020, 08:31:22 AM
Maths wasn’t you’re strong point aye... ;D ;D

That data was live at 8:30pm and wind was producing over 50% of their power requirements last night.

The whole point of my post was that SA has been cut off from the rest of the grid for 2 weeks now and the world hasn’t ended for them yet.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Fizzie on February 15, 2020, 08:46:06 AM
As for being self sufficient, those figures state the whole of SA is running on 1300 Mw .....I'm sure there are more than 20,000 people living there.

There are a few different sources of data, who don't count it in exactly the same way, so I don't know what the exact figures were last night (although the faint striped bar, under the generation bar on Pete's diagram, shows the demand at that time, which was less than the amount of power being generated).

However, right now, as at 0830 AEST Sat, so 0900 local, SA is generating ~1338 MW v 1174 MW of demand. Break down of generation is something like 742MW gas, 653MW wind + 46MW "large" solar. There's also another ~141MW being generated by "small" (household roof-top) solar. They are also exporting ~140MW to Victoria

Here two different spots to see what's going on at any time:

https://reneweconomy.com.au/nem-watch/ (https://reneweconomy.com.au/nem-watch/)

https://www.aemo.com.au/energy-systems/electricity/national-electricity-market-nem/data-nem/data-dashboard-nem#nem-dispatch-overview (https://www.aemo.com.au/energy-systems/electricity/national-electricity-market-nem/data-nem/data-dashboard-nem#nem-dispatch-overview)

From (extensive!) discussions on Whirlpool over these last couple of weeks, when everything collapsed in Victoria due to power stations & lines being shut down due to fires, then the main SA - Vic connector being damaged due to towers being knocked down by another tornado, it was very close to the aluminium smelter at Portland being irrevocably damaged due to power failure. They were able to do some quick re-jigging of power arrangements via the secondary SA - Vic connector to get power from SA to feed it, literally with minutes left!
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on February 15, 2020, 08:58:54 AM
Quote from: Pete79
I know there’s been plenty of other big things happening around the country lately, but given the massive uproar last time those power lines got cut I was pretty surprised this one hadn’t gotten the slightest mention anywhere around here.

http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=42087.msg1006296#msg1006296 (http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=42087.msg1006296#msg1006296)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on February 15, 2020, 07:40:39 PM
Maths wasn’t you’re strong point aye... ;D ;D

That data was live at 8:30pm and wind was producing over 50% of their power requirements last night.

The whole point of my post was that SA has been cut off from the rest of the grid for 2 weeks now and the world hasn’t ended for them yet.

Actually maths was my better subject at school.
Data was live at 8.30pm.....what about 2.30am ?
The point of your post may have been their ability to supply all their own power....nothing wrong with that, but 1/2 their power comes from gas....yet people complain about other states being reliant on coal ( a fossil fuel ), so gas is no different.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: GeoffA on February 15, 2020, 07:44:13 PM
Coal, gas and oil are renewable.
Just takes a bit longer..... ;D
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: GeoffA on February 15, 2020, 07:47:19 PM
.....
That data was live at 8:30pm....

Way past bed time in SA....


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: paceman on February 19, 2020, 10:39:10 AM
found this interesting, in relation to the SA renewables 'utopia'...

http://joannenova.com.au/2020/02/sa-renewable-electricity-market-mayhem-as-frequency-stabilizing-costs-hit-record-breaking-90-million/ (http://joannenova.com.au/2020/02/sa-renewable-electricity-market-mayhem-as-frequency-stabilizing-costs-hit-record-breaking-90-million/)
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: gronk on February 19, 2020, 06:41:33 PM
found this interesting, in relation to the SA renewables 'utopia'...

http://joannenova.com.au/2020/02/sa-renewable-electricity-market-mayhem-as-frequency-stabilizing-costs-hit-record-breaking-90-million/ (http://joannenova.com.au/2020/02/sa-renewable-electricity-market-mayhem-as-frequency-stabilizing-costs-hit-record-breaking-90-million/)


There are a fair few smart people out there that saw this coming.....but were probably ignored.
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Mitch92 on February 19, 2020, 07:08:18 PM
And people say that stable baseload power isn't needed  >:D
Title: Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
Post by: Bird on February 19, 2020, 07:15:07 PM
Coal, gas and oil are renewable.
Just takes a bit longer..... ;D
:cup: :cup: :cup: :cup: :cup: :cup: :cup: :cup: :cup: :cup: :cup: :cup: :cup: :cup: :cup: