MySwag.org The Off-road Camper Trailer Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: cruiser 91 on February 10, 2016, 11:47:17 AM
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Please keep in mind this plain simple and cheap. The shack is inherited and a heap with a story behind it but the concept is right.
As he say's the myth of grid solar costing 10's of thousands is bogus.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWwJsLobZJQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWwJsLobZJQ)
More and more of us are getting itchy feet to give the energy providers the flick!
:cheers:
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I know of a few people and have family that have bought cheap land and either put decent new or second hand sheds on it .. Throw in a few decent size water tanks, composting toilets [ youtube ] wind / solar and LPG for power / cooking etc and are living very cheaply with all the comforts ..
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It makes you wonder how far we have come from the 1900's and now people are looking at heading back that way sort of.
Plenty of options to assist in doing this.
Mark
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My new place I am building right now, the excavation started today.. 22sq home totally off grid everything.
My entire power system which I can posts picks of when installed will be 24k in total. That's all the power inverters,Panels, lg lipo batteries, and even a auto generator and everything as a full backup with everything more then enough to run for many days without sun.
So although not cheap I could do it a bit cheaper but are getting the really good gear, it's not crazy expensive.
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Is it just me, cos reckon the term "off grid" here is a misnomer.
Because as long as you're posting on my swag you'll never truly be "off grid". I understand peoples desire not to be totally dependant on government utilities but fair dinkum its a bit of a wankers term ????????????
Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk
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ha ha... Yeah maybe call it everything but off-internet in my case.
We're building a normal house with normal appliances and all the usual gear. (should be a nice home when i am at home :)..
We are putting in NBN Wireless as an internet, but we don't have access to Water/Sewage or phone lines. But "IF" i wanted to i can get power.
We decided we wanted this to be totally disconnected from all main utilities..
Maybe we call it off-utilities instead of off-grid.. Though with a good satellite setup you can be in the middle of Australia even without anything else and at least still have internet.
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I think if you are not connected to anything by wires or pipes then "off the grid" is a useful term. With satphones you can be connected anywhere so if you get too purest nowhere is 'off the grid" There is quite a lot of info available to allow you to get as disconnected as you like.
I think that the "off the grid" attitude also thinks about all the things you bring in and out of your property. Energy inputs are not just electricity or gas but also petrol, diesel, LPG, food etc. Outputs include garbage, smoke from burning etc There are heaps of options and choosing the ones that suit you and your families lifestyle is what matters.
Good luck with this, the more people that go down this road the better for all of us. :cup:
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We are in the same boat at the moment and are building new on acreage.
We plan to go "on grid" to start so I can supply the builders with power, but in a year or so when we are finished and sheds up etc etc, we hope to go "off grid"
I am installing the same as you, a normal appliance and light etc sytle house, but I plan to have battery bank and inverter to run it all.
I have also discovered some really good DC fans that I plan to use as well as 12 volt pumps for irrigation and water supply that I hope to keep separate to the house system.
It can be done and not too costly if you plan ahead.
We live for a month every Christmas "off the grid" in our camper and have absolutely no problems with power etc.
The only real concern is air conditioning. As long as you plan the house to be energy efficient and make use of shade and environment you can get a good system going.
I'd be keen to follow your build Firefox, if you are interested in sharing.
Cheers
Brian
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Hi Brian if there is enough interest I'll document it on the forum.
So we are on 8ha in the Huon valley in Tasmania. Up high and an awesome view straight down the valley.
We've got a shed already and I should have solar system running by the end of month. We are putting 5kw of solar on plus a lot of other gear. The batteries in lipo are getting cheaper and cheaper which is good. So we've got one going in immediately with an expansion a little later.
One thing we've done is because we are starting from scratch we've gone and got very efficient lights and appliances and systems.. I was originally going to run a seperate 12v grid for just lights, but after doing a heap of tests with some 12v down light house lights were going these 12v transformer ones that draw nothing.
I think the other trick is planning from the start about thermal Barriers, solar warmth, insulation and all these other terms to ensure the house is setup right. It's actually pretty easy to do.
We are also owner building now and organising contractors to do work
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We sit somewhere 'in between', in so much as we are water tanks and septic toilet. Still hooked up to power though........ wouldn't have it any other way....
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Hi Brian if there is enough interest I'll document it on the forum.
So we are on 8ha in the Huon valley in Tasmania. Up high and an awesome view straight down the valley.
We've got a shed already and I should have solar system running by the end of month. We are putting 5kw of solar on plus a lot of other gear. The batteries in lipo are getting cheaper and cheaper which is good. So we've got one going in immediately with an expansion a little later.
One thing we've done is because we are starting from scratch we've gone and got very efficient lights and appliances and systems.. I was originally going to run a seperate 12v grid for just lights, but after doing a heap of tests with some 12v down light house lights were going these 12v transformer ones that draw nothing.
I think the other trick is planning from the start about thermal Barriers, solar warmth, insulation and all these other terms to ensure the house is setup right. It's actually pretty easy to do.
We are also owner building now and organising contractors to do work
The old chooks beautiful brides family is just up the road at Huonville.........
Beautiful part of the world.
I would be interested in what you are doing if you have the time.
Even just a few build pics here and there.
Thanks mate,
Brian
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I'm gathering all and any information on offgrid as I can at the moment. I have a few few major concerns/homework for efficiency and sustainability prior to jumping into the deep end and I want to be completely off grid and self reliant on all major commodities.
1. Water capture and conservation/rain fall
2. Power generation, solar and wind
3. Smaller energy efficient home
4. Food source/farming.................soil
7. Wood heating
5. No rates, water or electricity bills.
6. LPG cylinder cooking
7. Solar hot water vs lpg vs convenience
7. Home cooling is still a major hurdle
8. Small income generation
Due to forward scientific calculations of future climate, coastal SA will become sub tropical.
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If there is enough interest I'll document it on the forum.
So we are on 8ha in the Huon valley in Tasmania. Up high and an awesome view straight down the valley.
Yes please will be very interested in the build up ... And just a little shocked your in Tassie, Wernt you guys SEQ based before heading off in the Styromax chalet ?.
And while talking of builds could I bother you for a link to the camper build that went to WA [ I think it was the Mk3 ? not sure, had a forwards fold out bed ] if at all possible ..
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Have you had a look at http://www.permies.com/ (http://www.permies.com/) ? There is heaps of info even if it is US based. Wood based heating is the major focus of http://donkey32.proboards.com/ (http://donkey32.proboards.com/) you can find world best practice there.
I would think that solar would solve a lot of your issues if your house is designed to be energy efficient. One great thing is to use the excess solar power generation in summer to power your air conditioner.
Wood heating is great if you can grow enough on your property. Rocket mass heaters are the most efficient but not the only option for wood based heating (and water heating)
An outside kitchen with rocket stoves, bbq and wood fired oven could be an interesting choice if you like to spend time that way.
lots of options and heaps of fun ahead :laugh:
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Solar aircon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz-kquRmvqk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz-kquRmvqk) or a geothermal unit that you could run from solar https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY3oGlgZRgI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY3oGlgZRgI)
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Solar aircon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz-kquRmvqk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz-kquRmvqk) or a geothermal unit that you could run from solar https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY3oGlgZRgI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY3oGlgZRgI)
Still not perfect. I want hot water on demand at night.
Not being disrespectful, just pushing the outer limits of the square after sunlight hours. Still trying to find another solution, perhaps wind generation.
:cheers:
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See if I can kill this thread by mentioning straw bale building. Worked on the last thread like this >:D
If you are looking at reducing your heating/cooling bill this building method is worth exploring amongst its other benefits.
Just need to find one where the owners will let you visit & feel what they are like inside. There is a lot of information out there & is ideal for a handy owner builder.
I had planned to owner build one but the other half has since suffered serious medical issues that make this impossible at the moment.
There is a range of providers of training & building services from basic to upmarket. Viva Homes is one but there are quite a lot of others I have no affiliation with any.
Ray
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I think the pioneering of free camping plays a lot into the future of home efficiency innervation. It's coming ever so close to a home near you.
Corporate $$$$ myths are starting to be broken, many thanks to those who have gone out on a limb and pioneered and experienced to the essence of offgrid living.
The funny thing is our ancestors had already experienced it and conquered it, now days it seems to be unchartered waters ???
Capitalism....................the perfect scam
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Just landed late in Hobart, will post some more info in the morning.
After living off grid for 3 years in the as some would say hotel or chalet were pretty good at off grid. The house is just another cool project I'm getting into
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See if I can kill this thread by mentioning straw bale building. Worked on the last thread like this >:D
If you are looking at reducing your heating/cooling bill this building method is worth exploring amongst its other benefits.
Ray
Nothing wrong with straw bale houses.. just got to have the time and right raw materials to put into them is all ..
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I know of a few people and have family that have bought cheap land and either put decent new or second hand sheds on it .. Throw in a few decent size water tanks, composting toilets [ youtube ] wind / solar and LPG for power / cooking etc and are living very cheaply with all the comforts ..
Unfortunately with most Councils your Planning and Development office would have some bad news for you with that and they speak softly but carry a big Legislative stick.
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Re the home cooling. I think the biggest issue in Aus is bad or poor building design. The package builders just lay a slab, put up some walls, a roof and chuck in A/C. You can do so much with passive design, just think about all the old Queenslanders, and Darwin homes (pre cyclone), and old style Thai and Malay homes built to be cool before we had A/C. But it will require a custom build.
Decent insulation including double glazing will keep the house cool as well as warm- 30% or so of heat transfer comes through glazing. Shade the Windows, glaze them well. Other things like a central courtyard with water feature will cool the building core. Place bedrooms in the core, venting roofs etc.all help. Even just changing your habits like keeping the blinds and internal doors closed on a hot day.
For an idea of what can be done, My mothers side of the family own a brewery in the UK and built a 4400 sq m 'green' warehouse about 8 years ago. It's bloody impressive. Maintains a constant 11degrees C through 90,000 hemp and lime brick walls, a 0.6ha 'green' sedum roof for cooling, thermal buffering and water capture, air locks in the loading bay to stop heat transfer, shaded windows etc A lot of the principles can be adapted to a home but it's not cheap. It's saving them close to 50,000GBP in energy costs per year over their old traditional industrial estate warehouse
http://www.greensuffolk.org/sgbn/suffolk-case-studies/adnams-distribution-centre/ (http://www.greensuffolk.org/sgbn/suffolk-case-studies/adnams-distribution-centre/)
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Another concept for cooling / warming is underground airconditioning.
Theory is that if you dig down ~5m, the ground will be a constant temperature of ~24`. Stick an array of pipes down at that depth, blow 30` hot air down one end & cool air comes out the other, put 5` air in & warm air comes out, basically totally free except for a fairly small fan.
Have read about it but never seen one actually working, although the theory sounds great :D
So when will this fantastic home appear as a POI on Tripigy? :D
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Ground source heating/cooling is a good thing in theory, tried in greenhouses over many years with ordinary results
Nothing is free, If you keep feeding 30 deg air in, the ground simply warms up, also transfer efficiency is pretty low.
Works as a temporary measure, you can bank day/night energy but it isnt simple as expected.
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Our farm at Connondale has been off grid - forever. Has a small solar array and a lister LPT2 as backup. Gas/timber stove, gas fridge (was kero), solar hws etc etc.
My aunt's farm at Ballandean is the same - they recently installed a gas stove and hws. Prior to that (5 years ago) it was a wood stove and hot water pig running off it.
Lower your expectations off grid and all will be fine. Expect to live like you do in the city and you'll need a city job to get the systems up and running and keep them there.
Also think (a LOT) about passive fire fighting - put a 100 gal tank on the roof that you can let go when it turns to custard - also works when you lose power to the water pump so the house doesn't fail.
Check town planning for the area to see what septic is allowed - plenty of areas need bio cycle now rather than soaker trenches.
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If there is enough interest I'll document it on the forum.
So we are on 8ha in the Huon valley in Tasmania. Up high and an awesome view straight down the valley.
We've got a shed already and I should have solar system running by the end of month. We are putting 5kw of solar on plus a lot of other gear. The batteries in lipo are getting cheaper and cheaper which is good. So we've got one going in immediately with an expansion a little later.
Any updates on the off grid build Justin ?.
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Yeah and no..
One lesson the solar market is full of people doing the wrong thing.
I've sacked our original solar guy as Dogy brothers inc.
But we should have the core running today tomorrow and will post some pics
We are now going initially. Phase 1
6kw sun power panels
5kw sunny boy
6kw sunny island inverter
LG CHem master LION battery 6.4kwh plus expansion module 3.2
Home manager
Sunny Webbox
Energy meter and a few other monitoring systems.
phase 2
8kva generator auto start and integrated into inverter and grid
5kw trina solar panels
5kw sunny boy
Plugged into master grid
Phase 3
4kw sunny island inverter as slave to 6kw
Second LG CHem master battery and expansion means total of 20kwh usable battery
Phase 3 or 4 will introduce potentially a spa swim pool on solar and maybe another 5kw.
Had NBN wireless connected on Thursday.
I'll send some pics today making some changes to prep for the panels tomorrow.
Generator should be here this week
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Wood heating is great if you can grow enough on your property. Rocket mass heaters are the most efficient but not the only option for wood based heating (and water heating)
If you are going off-grid for environmental reasons then you don't want to be burning timber. Gas is much cleaner.
See if I can kill this thread by mentioning straw bale building. Worked on the last thread like this >:D
I was watching Grand Designs a few months ago and they used this technique, looked awesome and incredibly cheap.
Decent insulation including double glazing will keep the house cool as well as warm- 30% or so of heat transfer comes through glazing. Shade the Windows, glaze them well. Other things like a central courtyard with water feature will cool the building core. Place bedrooms in the core, venting roofs etc.all help. Even just changing your habits like keeping the blinds and internal doors closed on a hot day.
The other thing is EAVES. So many houses these days don't have them, or are so small that the sun just heats up the walls.
Lower your expectations off grid and all will be fine. Expect to live like you do in the city and you'll need a city job to get the systems up and running and keep them there.
Bingo. This is something I think many people overlook. There is a lifestyle change associated with going off-grid, and this does not suit everyone. As this is a camping forum I am sure many here would be able to adapt quite easily if they haven't already, but there is a sizeable chunk of the population that are not used to that lifestyle.
You also have to look at ongoing costs of going off grid. They are not 'set and forget'. Solar panels have a lifespan of 25-30 years. Depending on what kind of batteries you get and your useage you will need to replace them every 10-20 years. Inverters are ~15 years.
So if you are going to go off-grid, make sure you do the numbers and be prepared. It is not as easy or cheap as many assume.
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If you are going off-grid for environmental reasons then you don't want to be burning timber. Gas is much cleaner.
If you are burning timber that you grow (as opposed to old growth forests) then it is carbon neutral. If you combine this with efficient combustion then you're onto a winner. Gas is a fossil fuel with all those issues even if it burns clean.
If you are interested some options this thread is an example of some of the newer heating ideas complete with emissions analysis. http://donkey32.proboards.com/thread/355/small-scale-development (http://donkey32.proboards.com/thread/355/small-scale-development)
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Here's an excellent online solar power tracker in Melbourne for you to scroll through the various menus and see how a serious solar setup works-
https://mediaserver.avenard.org/power/home
He's got a swimming pool he runs at night which the tree-changers can discount, but that aside you'll quickly appreciate that without storage capability, daily and seasonal variability is a major headache for going off grid.
There's a tendency for many solar fans to believe that technological advances with solar can overcome the problem but it's not so when you think about it. Currently solar systems can convert around 16% of the sun's energy into useable power so you might consider the Utopia of 100% conversion which would defy all Laws of physics but hold that thought. What you get with such an imaginary system is instead of an X KWhr maxm output system it now becomes a 6X KWhr system and simply 6 times the variability since 6 times nothing at night is still nothing. The Utopian solar system cost is irrelevant although when it's producing nothing you'd obviously prefer it cost nothing as well.
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You could add a wind power generator into the system.
That would run night or day.
I doubt you would like the headache from blowin on the thing when there's no breeze though.
You could con the locals to do it for you I suppose.
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Just finished working out a quote for a standalone 4 KW system with 6.4KW battery bank.
$14,200.
Sounds steep and too small, but with gas for cooking, rooftop solar for hot water, it will do the house required.
Retired couple no kids and reasonable frugal with power.
They will require a genset for powering AC, but using it only on really hot days for a minimal fuel cost it won't be too expensive.
Wood fire for heating in winter and thermally efficient house will meet their needs.
Considering they will never receive a power bill and only have to allow about $1000 per annum for maintenance it's not too bad.
Obviously with prices dropping as time goes, its not that far away before it will be affordable.
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They're still trying-
http://reneweconomy.com.au/2016/redflows-hackett-were-better-than-teslas-home-battery-storage-13405 (http://reneweconomy.com.au/2016/redflows-hackett-were-better-than-teslas-home-battery-storage-13405)
although to be fair pumped flow batteries like that can have application for commercial/industrial and perhaps large shared residential due to the fixed cost of the pump and delivery/monitoring system.
The history of mankind's ability to store energy is rather pitiful, apart from in the form of calories or water pumped uphill. There are huge hurdles to storing energy electrochemically and in that regard we're still using essentially the same lead acid battery in our cars that Henry was plonking in the Model T. Count me a skeptic that battery storage will ever be the saviour of solar and in Oz we don't have the suitable sites or the water to pump uphill.
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Hows the off grid retreat in the scub going Firefox, any updates / pics ? :cheers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRN0uClnJBw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRN0uClnJBw)
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Yes please https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lW4Yux-lzo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lW4Yux-lzo)
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I was bought up with a Rayburn and Crown wood stove cooked the tucker and heated our water great, Theses days if we burn timber off our farm that we grow, then put that ash or charcoal back in the garden for the potash, thats a no no, plus if the bush fire brigade I was in did burn offs to control fuel build up on the ground we are called environmental vandals, But when I go up the Cape millions of acres are burnt every year its called fuel reduction burning for carbon credits and the locals are payed big bucks for it, Theses Environmentalist are Fire trucked in the head, what the difference, I would love to have a solar set up in a couple of years good enough to run our house and be 95% self sufficient, but have a diesel or petrol genset good enough to do my welding, Craig
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in Oz we don't have the suitable sites or the water to pump uphill.
Not true. The ANU just did a study, finding 22000 suitable pumped hydro sites that could easily be developed into a 100% renewable setup.
"Australia needs only a tiny fraction of these sites for pumped hydro storage - about 450 GWh of storage - to support a 100 per cent renewable electricity system," said Professor Blakers from the ANU Research School of Engineering.
"Fast tracking the development of a few of the best sites by 2022 could balance the grid when Liddell and other coal power stations close.
"Pumped hydro storage, including Snowy 2.0, can be developed fast enough to balance the grid with any quantity of variable wind and solar PV power generation, including 100 per cent renewable energy.
"We found so many good potential sites that only the best 0.1 per cent will be needed. We can afford to be choosy."
http://www.anu.edu.au/news/all-news/anu-finds-22000-potential-pumped-hydro-sites-in-australia (http://www.anu.edu.au/news/all-news/anu-finds-22000-potential-pumped-hydro-sites-in-australia)
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Not true. The ANU just did a study, finding 22000 suitable pumped hydro sites that could easily be developed into a 100% renewable setup.
"Australia needs only a tiny fraction of these sites for pumped hydro storage - about 450 GWh of storage - to support a 100 per cent renewable electricity system," said Professor Blakers from the ANU Research School of Engineering.
"Fast tracking the development of a few of the best sites by 2022 could balance the grid when Liddell and other coal power stations close.
"Pumped hydro storage, including Snowy 2.0, can be developed fast enough to balance the grid with any quantity of variable wind and solar PV power generation, including 100 per cent renewable energy.
"We found so many good potential sites that only the best 0.1 per cent will be needed. We can afford to be choosy."
http://www.anu.edu.au/news/all-news/anu-finds-22000-potential-pumped-hydro-sites-in-australia (http://www.anu.edu.au/news/all-news/anu-finds-22000-potential-pumped-hydro-sites-in-australia)
"Pumped hydro - which accounts for 97 percent of energy storage worldwide - has a lifetime of 50 years, and is the lowest cost large-scale energy storage technology."
Stop right there, I’ve heard enough. Qld already has enough energy pre packaged, stored, and ready to go in the form of black lumps, and also yellow lumps - zero building required. They needed to add a few green adjectives to frame that argument better and exclude other natural resources.
I also like how the ‘cost modelling is underway’. Meaning there were zero other parameters such as ‘commercial viability’ or god forbid ‘environmental impact’ unnecessarily impeding the outcome of our study. Because the Snowy scheme is a screaming success in that department.
I am all for alternate solutions but the science needs to balance the economics before we kick it off or we will end up with another Tesla battery like SA which is the answer to absolutely nothing.
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I think you have to have a pretty loose definition of "energy storage" to consider coal. It's a fuel, not a battery.
I also think that science balancing economics is what has led to many of the environmental problems we're facing today. Perhaps science should be more interested in balancing environmental impacts and long term sustainability, hence this study.
We can't keep burning coal forever. This year is predicted to see the first increase in CO2 emissions after a 3 consecutive year plateau, primarily due to increased coal use in China.
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Water behind a dam isn’t energy either. It just has the potential to drive a turbine, same as coal. Last I looked this conversation was about Australia. Let’s not kid ourselves that we are going to change China any time soon, who by the way produce by a huge margin the most hydro power on the planet. More than the next 4 combined - Brazil, Canada, USA and Russia.
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We'd love to put in a small savonius wind turbine, but not sure what the council guidelines are around something like that
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Water behind a dam isn’t energy either. It just has the potential to drive a turbine.......
....potential energy when behind the wall, kinetic energy once it starts flowing.... ;D