Stockton beach closure protest

[ozbogwam]

I was under the impression the closures are temporary due to the amount of damage by the weather meaning areas normally used for camping aren't suitable at the moment?


I agree that a well organised protest about the continued closure of tracks is worthwhile but unorganized groups with no clear objective is unfortunately going to be ignored by those in power and will just annoy local residents

[Redback]

This is a fact, National Parks will only re-open Stockton when they think it is ready to be opened, regardless of how many protest about it, their only interest is the protection of the envioronment and what the Worrimi people want.

Baz.

[crackacoldie]

This is a fact, National Parks will only re-open Stockton when they think it is ready to be opened, regardless of how many protest about it, their only interest is the protection of the envioronment and what the Worrimi people want.

Baz.

Would love to accept your argument Baz, however, you can still book a tour into the sand dunes from Pt Stephens.  The dunes have been opened to tour operators.  If the environment is of top priority, the dunes would be closed to all!

[bushbandit]

Was just listening to the local radio station here in Pt Stephens and one thing they said was that parts of the dunes were closed by private owners.Might be sand mining companies ?

[BigJules]

This is a fact, National Parks will only re-open Stockton when they think it is ready to be opened, regardless of how many protest about it, their only interest is the protection of the envioronment and what the Worrimi people want.

Baz.

I too find this hard to accept. I simply can't see the damage they claim, and got a different story from rangers on the beach when I drove it last year.

I am no anti-greenie, but the fact is that this is a beach subject to continual change from the wind and sea, far more than any 4wd use creates.

[alnjan]

There is a large part of the dunes at Stockton which are private property and not open for the public.  This doesn't always stop people driving there with some people however.  The tour operators have private agreements and pay the land owner to conduct their tours on the dunes on that private land.  The Worimi people want to have the area reopened as much as anyone.

http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/NationalParks/parkFireClosure.aspx?id=N1111

The Worimi Conservation Lands Board of Management, and the NPWS remain committed to seeing a return to camping on the lands, but needs to ensure that camping areas do not damage Aboriginal sites, are safe and sustainable. The provision of camping opportunities on the park is addressed in the Draft Plan of Management for the WCL, which is scheduled for public viewing & comment in early 2013.

People concerned about the closure of the beach need to get themselves organised and be prepared and have constructive input for when the Draft Plan of Management for the WCL comes up for Public Viewing and Comment.  That is where we, the people, can have input into what happens in the future.  Okay we have had the protest with a mass gathering of people, now is when the locals need to get themselves orgainised, No offence to Roothy, but he is from interstate, it needs someone local to stand up and formalise the masses and get a proposal ready for when the public viewing and comment is asked for. 

Who is going to do something about it???

[alnjan]

http://www.worimiconservationlands.com/services.php?top=services&category=parkmanagement&sid=82

The WCL plan of management consultative group is:
Hugh James - Camping, fishing & young people
Trevor Connell - NPWS Hunter Region Advisory Committee
Annie Lawrence - Anna Bay Parks Committee
Nicola Roche - Archaeologist & cultural heritage resource management specialist
Brendan Burke - Recreation Vehicle Area interests
Siri Nicolas - Horse riding
Rob Kelly - Four wheel driving - 4WD NSW & ACT Inc.
Mark Newling - Stockton Bight Dune Operators Association
Alwyn Garland - Tin City Heritage & Conservation Society Inc.
John Simpson - National Parks Association
Myra Espey - Port Stephens Econetwork
Jason Linnane - Port Stephens Council

http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/resources/parks/wclBeachDriving.pdf

[BigJules]

Have a vote on this poll
Newcastle Herald

[Bird]

As time went by, and faced with the shear mass of numbers of 4bees pouring into Cessnock, Roothy came over the UHF and declared the rally over, thanking everyone for their efforts.

They had enough photos for the magazine?

So if the traffic jam was 48klms long, I can see why they wouldn't want that many 4wds on the dunes.

Or were most just on the bandwagon.

[Barry G]

They had enough photos for the magazine?

So if the traffic jam was 48klms long, I can see why they wouldn't want that many 4wds on the dunes.

Or were most just on the bandwagon.

I agree Lost, no different to other magazine 'beat-up' campaigns, such as those about bull bars and lifted suspensions.

As Redback said, NPWS will re-open when they believe it should be.

I have never been a member of a 4WD club, however they are the only organised Association in a position to 'represent' the interests of 4WD users.  It simply isn't possible to have Joe Public 'represented' in working parties / committees etc. As such they do a valuable job.
I con't see what the alternative could be, short of saying that you / me should be able to do/ go wherever/whatever we want because, in our eyes, we are 'right'... and that will never happen.  While we all love the wilderness / frontier 'experience', the simple reality is that everywhere on public land is regulated to some extent.

[BigJules]

As Redback said, NPWS will re-open when they believe it should be.

The point being made by the protest is that NPWS have no vested interest in reforming it. They do not seem to be interested in operating sustainable areas where responsible folks can use public land for recreation.

[Bird]

Would love to accept your argument Baz, however, you can still book a tour into the sand dunes from Pt Stephens.  The dunes have been opened to tour operators.  If the environment is of top priority, the dunes would be closed to all!

That's the bit that throws the spanner in the works. Have they stopped the tour operators at all since the damage occurred?

Either trust the tour operators more than Joe Average (which may or may not be valid), or the tour operators pay a special fee to be allowed to use it (money talks), or they can control the #'s on the area this way.

I still don't see a 48 klm line of cars prompting them to think '**** we got it wrong' - even if 25% of those cars wanted to access the area, that's a **** load of cars. Let alone to the normal traffic trying to get places.

We suffer from the same down here. When the winter closures happen, everyone goes to the few open areas causing loads of damage due to increased traffic, then they don't open areas because of the damage. We are also losing areas.

Down here they have only a few rangers per x100 sq klms to look after the area, and an ever shrinking budget.

Honestly I don't know what the long term answer is to it - anywhere.

[gclan]

Cessnock council apparently asked that they disband the convoy and not all converge on the showground here. The grounds were also very soggy and water was beginning to pool everywhere, so the organisers complied with their request.

As for Stockton, last time I headed down to the beach, several months after the storm which caused the closure, the beachfront, foredunes and larger rear dunes which are off limits seemed to look as they always had and certainly didn't look anything like the washed away, eroded photos that NPWS still display on their website.

It will be interesting to see what comes out in their management plan which they'll hopefully release soon. Surely they didn't upgrade the Lavis Lane entry for nothing? Sadly we'll not be getting any use out of our annual pass that we've bought (regardless of how inexpensive it was) as driving back and forth along the high tide line holds no interest for us.

The closures in the Watagans are a whole different ball game altogether :-(

Karen

[Brucer]

I think the concern and hence the support for the protest is because;
a) NWPS has form in terms of closing areas and not giving information as to why and if/when they will be reopened or under what conditions.
b) Such "temporary" closures have a habit of quietly becoming permanent
c) NWPS and local councils seem far more concerned with pacifying vocal green interests.
d) Stockton is an iconic 4WD destination and one of the very few places left where beach/dune driving is permitted. If it's lost to 4WDing public then it's surely lost forever.
d) The protest was an opportunity to show decision makers that 4WDers care about their access being diminished and won't stand by and let it happen. Nothing wrong with that is there?

I think it's a good thing. I don't think such an event needs "clear objectives" as others have said. It is enough that many thousands of 4WDers turned up to say "Hey, you can't just close Stockton down indefinitely and fob us off with crap about storm damage". At least the authorities are now listening and answering, justifying their case as they should have been from day one.
If there are land owners involved then why is it suddenly a problem now? If that's really the issue then let it be properly dealt with and not under the guise of some other reason that most people aren't buying.

[MarkGU]

I think the concern and hence the support for the protest is because;
a) NWPS has form in terms of closing areas and not giving information as to why and if/when they will be reopened or under what conditions.
b) Such "temporary" closures have a habit of quietly becoming permanent
c) NWPS and local councils seem far more concerned with pacifying vocal green interests.
d) Stockton is an iconic 4WD destination and one of the very few places left where beach/dune driving is permitted. If it's lost to 4WDing public then it's surely lost forever.
d) The protest was an opportunity to show decision makers that 4WDers care about their access being diminished and won't stand by and let it happen. Nothing wrong with that is there?

I think it's a good thing. I don't think such an event needs "clear objectives" as others have said. It is enough that many thousands of 4WDers turned up to say "Hey, you can't just close Stockton down indefinitely and fob us off with crap about storm damage". At least the authorities are now listening and answering, justifying their case as they should have been from day one.
If there are land owners involved then why is it suddenly a problem now? If that's really the issue then let it be properly dealt with and not under the guise of some other reason that most people aren't buying.

[ozbogwam]

Are they answering? If so who are they and where are the responses?

[Bird]

Are they answering? If so who are they and where are the responses?

If there are no objectives, what are they answering?

I still don't get why tour operators have not been stopped...

[MarkGU]

If there are no objectives, what are they answering?

I still don't get why tour operators have not been stopped...

its called MONEY Lost. in the right pockets its Gold. :-/

[hoytshooter]

Its also ...nice .... when you are on the beach and watch them still pushing sand around with dozers and taking out truck loads...

[alnjan]

That's the bit that throws the spanner in the works. Have they stopped the tour operators at all since the damage occurred?

Either trust the tour operators more than Joe Average (which may or may not be valid), or the tour operators pay a special fee to be allowed to use it (money talks), or they can control the #'s on the area this way.

I still don't see a 48 klm line of cars prompting them to think '**** we got it wrong' - even if 25% of those cars wanted to access the area, that's a **** load of cars. Let alone to the normal traffic trying to get places.

We suffer from the same down here. When the winter closures happen, everyone goes to the few open areas causing loads of damage due to increased traffic, then they don't open areas because of the damage. We are also losing areas.

Down here they have only a few rangers per x100 sq klms to look after the area, and an ever shrinking budget.

Honestly I don't know what the long term answer is to it - anywhere.

The area the tour operators use is on private property, not part of the WCL and there for the closure does not effect them.  The WCL only makes up a part of the dunes at Stockton, not the whole lot.  Other people also use the dunes the tour operators use, but are trespassing as they are entering private land without the permission of the land owners.  The Tour Operators also pay the land owners for the privilege of conducting their tours on their land. 

[Turbojohn]

I think the concern and hence the support for the protest is because;
a) NWPS has form in terms of closing areas and not giving information as to why and if/when they will be reopened or under what conditions.
b) Such "temporary" closures have a habit of quietly becoming permanent
c) NWPS and local councils seem far more concerned with pacifying vocal green interests.
d) Stockton is an iconic 4WD destination and one of the very few places left where beach/dune driving is permitted. If it's lost to 4WDing public then it's surely lost forever.
d) The protest was an opportunity to show decision makers that 4WDers care about their access being diminished and won't stand by and let it happen. Nothing wrong with that is there?

I think it's a good thing. I don't think such an event needs "clear objectives" as others have said. It is enough that many thousands of 4WDers turned up to say "Hey, you can't just close Stockton down indefinitely and fob us off with crap about storm damage". At least the authorities are now listening and answering, justifying their case as they should have been from day one.
If there are land owners involved then why is it suddenly a problem now? If that's really the issue then let it be properly dealt with and not under the guise of some other reason that most people aren't buying.

You hit the nail on the head there. Although the sad part is all the promising talks between departments and US as users of these areas always tend to fizzle away into nothing more than a lock on a gate. I've seen it many times where
Clubs involved and the association get nothing more than the runaround and a heap of dead ends. Makes me very very sad indeed.
I truly hope this one has a successful outcome for the public for a change

[BigJules]

Well said Brucer

[BobM]

*** NEWSFLASH ***
The NSW/ACT 4WD association became irrelevant yesterday when up to 5000 4WD'ers (whom they purport to represent), turned up to a rally which the association says they don't support or encourage.

I think this makes it pretty clear that the association does NOT speak for the 4WDing public.

I'm not a regular poster on here but this post prompted me to reply.
I will state I am a member of a 4wd club in NSW and as such represented by the 4WD NSW&ACT Association.

Please be advised that the Association will not encourage participation in any protest where the reasons for it are not for the advancement of 4WDing generally and the organisers have either not undertaken appropriate research before calling for such action and/or are utilising the prospective event for "other" purposes. You will note that the document referred to above on our website is titled "TEMPORARY CHANGES" which of itself indicates that there is no intention to abandon previous access arrangements.

You might note the quote says "the Association will not encourage participation in any protest where the reasons for it are not for the advancement of 4WDing generally" ; that means me, you, everyone.
Yes the 4wd Associations, and I say Associations meaning all states, first and foremost work for and on behalf of their members, but just like the NRMA who do the same, the results they get benefit the wider community. Unlike the NRMA the guys who work on behalf of the NSW Association are all volunteers who give their own free time to fight for causes they are passionate about, the very same causes you are passionate about.

The privileged access that people talk about is because member clubs (it is an association of clubs) train their members to a recognised standard which the land managers (NPWS/Forests etc) recognise and accept, the clubs also have liability insurance, this makes them a good risk in the eyes of the land managers and as such they have MOU's (memorandum of understanding) in place.

So whilst you say the Association is irrelevant, they quietly go about the business of attending meetings with government departments etc, with whom they have worked for years to get accepted, all so that the members can live the lifestyle they wish and the general public benefits as well, again I state, they do all this as volunteers, FREE. It might not be the in your face thousand plus trucks cruising down the freeway but it works, these guys do their home work, they attend meetings knowing what it is they're fighting for, and they have a plan, they talk, they compromise, they get results maybe not the result they always want but that's life.

So maybe if what 10% of the guys who attended the rally last Saturday join or form a club and that club joins the Association, they would have more clout when they represent the association at meetings, and believe me numbers count, they turn up and represent thousands of people and they're listened to. who did Mr Rooth represent? yes he was a figure head to thousands but no one who counts is listening to him.

There's an election later this year, if the 4wd community got it's act together it could achieve so much, just think about joining a club and supporting the association in NSW, they have the access to the people you need to talk to.

And on a final note, Stockton and the Watagans are old news, the decisions have been made, The Watagans has gates put in to save the tracks during bad weather, I think you'll find that's a regular thing done in a lot of national parks, the tracks that everyone is shouting about are play tracks that have been bush bashed through, and shouldn't be there, again it's a liability issue. Stockton well there's the Traditional Land Owners, a Sand Mine and the NPWS who I understand manage the beach on behalf of the TLO, so give the rangers a break, they're just following instructions.

So to recap, the NSW association works for it's members, the general public benefits from that work whether they realise it or not, if the 4WD community wants to see results it needs to talk to the people in power who matter, 4WD NSW&ACT Association have those contacts, use them it's in all our best interests.

Peace people, these are just my thoughts, B.

[gronk]

Bob, while you have many valid points, I for one don't want to join a 4wd club, and I don't believe in the system where unless you are a member of something, it gives you any more right to do something !!

I'm sure the president of the 4wd association does some good, but as proved by the numbers that attended the rally, he represents a very small proportion of 4wders..

Now, everyone knows that people are usually their own worst enemies, and 4wders are no different, and sometimes tracks need to be closed to protect them......but as everyone knows, that closure sometimes ( or most times ) becomes permanent..

As for Watagans tracks being closed during wet weather, that story may have been told to your leaders, but they were still closed a year later ( during the big drought of last year )...........I rang nat parks about it and got shifted between 3 different offices and still no defineate answer......

When you say the decision has already been made about Stockton.....what decision are you talking about........they are saying the beach will reopen to campers....the rally of 4,000 people were suspicious about that statement, so decided to act.......are you saying they have decided not to reopen it ??

[BobM]

Not joining a club, that's your choice.  Personnally I love club life, we belong to an excellent club.

There are plenty of instances in life where you get to do things that others can't because you're a member of a group and they're not. Please don't think we get to drive anywhere we wish, I still can't go into the Watagans and drive all the play tracks I used to a year ago and it gives me the s*&ts, I understand why they've been bulldozed them, but now I go playing further afield.

The association president doesn't work alone, there is a committee.

I'm not sure I agree with you on the closures, I'm a glass half full guy, I don't believe permanent closures are inevitable.

The Watagans, I'm talking of the latest crop of gates, I know Slippery Rock was closed a couple of years ago and hasn't been opened again, I drove that just before the gates went in and it was a mess, I've seen some of the new gates and they're all pretty much on the main tracks, except Daniels Point Rd and that is a mess down the bottom.

When talking about Stockton, I just mean the current restrictions regarding access and to restrict camping, those decisions are made and in force, I believe the beach will re-open and camping allowed again when the conditions improve.

B.