MySwag.org The Off-road Camper Trailer Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Barry G on March 03, 2011, 10:43:31 PM
-
Have been accused on another thread of being GREENWASHED, whatever that is, and called for BS, in relation to comments concerning cattle in the high country.
In particular, I find comments to ... 'tell your bushwalker mates..." offensive 'dog whistleing' - .i.e. using an unstated implication to disparage the messenger, rather than debating the issue.
Other posters had however requested details of the scientific evidence in relation to cattle in the high country.
I googled Maisie Fawcett, one of the earliest scientific researchers on the subject, and came up with a list of links including an archived site which includes an extensive list of research papers, for those who are interested.
http://www.cowpaddock.com/references.html (Should be enough references there to keep you happy Speewa!)
There is a link on this page ( titled: Independent assessment of the science ) by R.H. Groves, Senior Principal Research Scientist, CSIRO Plant Industry. This is essentially a basic peer review of the research.
Yes, it is on the VNPA web site - but that doesn't alter the science, even for those who dog whistle "bushwalker" as a synonym for 'pinko'.
If anyone has other peer reviewed science, either supporting or contrary to the views expressed, feel free to post them here.
Happy to discuss - I don't recon it needs to become a variation on the 12 volt thread.
-
This is in reply to both the hut thread and this one
I am quite unusual (apart from the obvious) because I bushwalk, 4wd and ride dirt bikes in the bush. So technically I should hate myself. When I scramble along a narrow off trail ridge and set up my tarp in a secluded saddle alone I think to myself I’m so glad there are no trails up here. Now take 4wd campers. Most like the ability to get to out of the way places and set up camp at a quiet spot at the end of a trail that most cant traverse, and they think to themselves “I'm glad there is no tar roads up here”. We have seen on this site the furore when it is suggested that some of the more iconic roads are opened up to allow cars.
The more people that go somewhere the more chance it has of getting destroyed. Solo walking in off trail areas you find the land totally untouched. But as these areas become more popular it starts to show signs of wear. Lets take an example of a cave on a remote outcrop. If only a few people know about it and there are no trails then tho only people that visit it are the very keen so there is a good chance it will stay pristine. Lets say the NPWS see benefit in this and they make a formed trail to it, maybe put camp pads near it. Now it is accessible to a lot more hikers, so the chance of people leaving rubbish or Shitting close to camp increases. Now lets say there is a hard 4wd track to it. More people come. But as its hard only those that are keen and interested in the cave come and visit , you will start to see a bit more rubbish, and maybe some off track driving. As the road gets better the masses of 4wders turn up. And as the numbers increase so does the chances of idiots. More empty cans, fires lit in the cave , trees cut down for wood, maybe a few doughnuts. Then the road becomes 2wd, more people more chances of idiots, then eventually its trashed.
My recent trip to the high country showed me the worst of the 4wd kind.,
So you all need to understand, you are all the same, just as a bushwalker gets accused of being a greenie for not wanting 4wd’s, a 4wdver may be accused of the same for not wanting tar and car parks. The biggest threat to all of us are idiots and unfortunately they cross all streams…
Back on cattle. Any domesticated animal with hooves will cut up the land. Cows are stupid. I have them. They stand in my dams drinking and Shit, other than humans what other animal would Shit in his own nest. The high country we all love is not the natural high country. Pre the fires there was a canopy of snow gums with no understory then native grasses. Years of grazing removed the understory and allowed light through to the ground for the grass to thrive. First the cattle was removed, then the fires. They were so hot all the gums were killed but they regrow from their Lignotuber and soon regrowth occurs. Also opertunistic trees like acacia shoot up quick so you have the low mass of scrub you see now. Over many years the trees will regrow but without cattle there will always be an understory.
I live on the slopes of the Barrington’s. There are pigs, horses and cattle up on the plateau they to terrible damage, scotch broom has taken over the scrub and Phytophthora has spread to a large area.
None of us ‘genuine’ people want the bush destroyed and we want to enjoy it in our own way. So perhaps instead of the greeny/ redneck name calling there could be a more combined approach where each gives a little to gain a lot.
Sorry for being serious.
-
Darren,don't apologise for being honest.That is one of the best replies to any subject I have ever read and I whole heartedly endorse it.
Trevor
-
Re-introducing cattle into the high country is a stupid idea, their main reasoning is even stupider(is that a word) it is a scientific fact that grazing does not reduce the risk of fire, one reason, cattle don't eat leaf litter
Imagine camping at your favourite camping spot 12 to 24mths after they re-introduce cattle, maybe you can use the the cow pats as a subtitute for bollards >:D >:D
As an excample;
We camped at Buemba Flat Xmas 06 12mths after cattle where removed, there were cow pats everywhere, bare ground where the cattle would rip up the grass, and basically stomp the ground bare, hoof marks and uneven ground in and near the creek that runs through the camp site, just a lot of damage, even the Vic parks campsite was like this, which is on the other side of the creek from the State Forest campsite, 4yrs later we stopped there in 2010/11, both campsites and the surrounding area was lush and green, ground was flat, minimal hoof damage, it just looked fabulous, it has gone from a pretty ordinary campsite to a very good campsite.
Now if we could only stop the hoons ripping up the track in, it would be perfect >:D
This is just one of many campsites that have benifitted from the removal of grazing in the high country, there is enough damage with all the horses, pigs, dogs and cats without cattle adding to it!!!
Baz.
-
What a great reply Darren. Verry true.
-
Darren, how dare you post such a logical response :cup:
-
Darren, how dare you post such a logical response :cup:
I promise to try harder next time
-
I reckon, I didn't sign up as a mate with that logical tool.
Whoever you are, get out of darren's myswag account!
-
Maybe I had a little too much red wine last night but after reading Barry1956's topic several times, I am still not sure what he is trying to say. Maybe I need to drink from Speewa's water bottle.
Baz, are you for or against cattle in the high country or just opening up the debate?
Incisive response Darren.
-
Maybe I had a little too much red wine last night but after reading Barry1956's topic several times, I am still not sure what he is trying to say.
Is Barry, Harold Scruby's brother? First bullbars now cattle grazing ;D
-
Barry will be the first to tour Australia by Hovercraft. You know, minimising impact and all that.
-
Barry will be the first to tour Australia by Hovercraft. You know, minimising impact and all that.
I have been up the Snowy River in a hovercraft from Orbost is was an awesome experience, No need to worry about the closed roads because of to much rain ;D
If it wasn't for High Country Grazing we wouldn't have top movies like the Man From Snowy River and Craigs Hut 8)
Rich
-
If it wasn't for High Country Grazing we wouldn't have top movies like the Man From Snowy River and Craigs Hut 8)
[/quote]
You wouldn't have all the fabulous huts up there either, or all the roads snaking around the place. It would probably just be a pristene locked and blocked paradise.
-
I think the question is should they re introduce grazing. I don't think anyone here can go back in time (even with my super powers). People used to clear fell forest too. A lot of the trails we drive on are the result of the timber industry. But i don't thing we want our forest cleared either.
It seems personality? has prevented the opertunity for discussion.
As i have past my second post i will stop now...
-
OK shamlessly stolen from AULRO, it is a hot topic over there at the moment!!
http://www.australianalps.environment.gov.au/learn/pubs/grazing.pdf (http://www.australianalps.environment.gov.au/learn/pubs/grazing.pdf)
http://www.ecolsoc.org.au/Position_papers/documents/AlpineGrazing.pdf (http://www.ecolsoc.org.au/Position_papers/documents/AlpineGrazing.pdf)
Grazing by livestock in the sub-alpine and alpine zones represents a significant threat to water, soil, nature conservation and biodiversity values.
Baz.
-
Scientists on both sides can write studies and findings to the cows come home (pardon the pun), the reality is there is a cost with everything we as humans do on the planet. The question in this case should be, is the cost worth the benefit rather than should we do this.
-
Scientists on both sides can write studies and findings to the cows come home (pardon the pun), the reality is there is a cost with everything we as humans do on the planet. The question in this case should be, is the cost worth the benefit rather than should we do this.
Only benifit I see, is free grazing land for the farmers.
Baz.
-
Only benifit I see, is free grazing land for the farmers.
Are you a vegetarian?
-
Are you a vegetarian?
No, are you?
-
Shouldn't the topic be amended to "cattle in the high country national parks"?
For that I agree no cattle should be allowed as it's only free grazing for fat land barons, but if I had a private property in the high country then the national perks would be told where to go.
-
I can't speak for the High Country as I have never been there, not yet. Where I have been is in other areas that have had cattle.
While not based on scientific speak but purely on my own observation, I have seen areas that had previously been used for grazing and now no grazing allowed. what I have seen in those areas where the grazing has stopped is the increase in the unwanted growth of the likes of lantana, privot, black berries crofton weed etc. All good plant life for happy camping. This generally occurs when the likes of Nation Parks etc lock an area up, making it a no go area. With no maintenance etc, the area just becomes an overgrown mess.
A previous post mentions how cattle have copped up tracks to the creek and made the flat near the creek devoid of vegetation. Sounds to me like an area the cattle was using to camp as well. With no cattle the grass has returned and without people camping there and maintaining the area, the grass would again go as other vegetation would be allowed to grow there and you end up with an overgrown camp site.
From a green view point man, on foot, two wheels or four wheels does more damage to the environment then any cattle or other animal can do.
-
well spoken Darren, treat every one as equals
-
Darren,
In light of the upcoming election can you please refrain from posting.....................
I find it highly offensive that in election time you use big words, explain things understandably, and insult me with the use of logic and commonsense.
Right after I finish this thread I am going to ask Brett to ban you from posting for a month......... >:D >:D >:D
If you start to introduce rational, sane discussion into a topic, how on earth are the lefty opinionated extremists supposed to get what they want???
Bring on biased opinion, sledging, lies, statistics that prove nothing and a whole bunch of spin.................
Come on, get into the spirit of election time..............don't ruin it with good comments and supported sense.
(A bloody long winded attempt to say - Well said. And if you ever do go into politics - I'd vote for you)
Cheers, and I'd love to buy you a beer,
Brian
-
Right after I finish this thread I am going to ask Brett to ban you from posting for a month......... >:D >:D >:D
I think i'm well on my way to getting that done myself.. ???
-
How do you get noticed , put up lots & LOTS of long winded pages of mind numbing drivel as a broad spectrum scatter gun approuch to a topic . All I want to know is what do we know about Bovine Neamatoads in Mac springs & there effect on humans . Thats where this started & as an unanswered question it has spun off almost out of control at a million miles a sec . Lets just back up to the start as if its going to stand up by its self thats where it should be .
The usual approach is to start then chuck all sorts of stuff in the air this will blot out the reality of whats really giong on . A thinly vailed political rant . I dont want to see the forum go down this track . Politics & Religion are best cept to ones self & should be .
I wont get sucked into a slanging match as such on these topics
-
I think that wanting to allow cattle to graze the high country is largely sentimental; I can understand it, I love reading Banjo Patterson, and have ridden horses through that area. There is surely no longer a "need" for this, as we have highly productive grazing areas outside the alpine regions.
I support appropriate land use; be it mining, grazing, housing, recreation or exclusion. Trouble is agreeing on "appropriate".
-
Like Seb said to Jim Craig, "I think they have heard about the drought proof grazing up here."
Rich
-
How do you get noticed , put up lots & LOTS of long winded pages of mind numbing drivel as a broad spectrum scatter gun approuch to a topic . All I want to know is what do we know about Bovine Neamatoads in Mac springs & there effect on humans . Thats where this started & as an unanswered question it has spun off almost out of control at a million miles a sec . Lets just back up to the start as if its going to stand up by its self thats where it should be .
The usual approach is to start then chuck all sorts of stuff in the air this will blot out the reality of whats really giong on . A thinly vailed political rant . I dont want to see the forum go down this track . Politics & Religion are best cept to ones self & should be .
I wont get sucked into a slanging match as such on these topics
Speewa
I take it this is directed at me. A mental giant like youself talking about someone else dribbling on this forum has to be about the most contradictory thing i have ever read. Your insessive mindless bable makes spam look informative...
I'm not going to post on this thread again but it you want to discuss it come and see me next time your up this way.
-
Darren you're a legend.
Don't care what anyone else says.......
:cheers:
-
It's very true though, the point made above is spot on - understanding and respecting another persons priorities.
It's a pretty standard trait or attribute in the people I choose to hang around.
-
Cool heads everyone :cheers:
I think the problem is that if a natural area has ever seen any non indigenous involvment then it is not pristine.
As Darren said, we all want to stop the overdevelopment of an area we love. When I was a teen, we could go to Myall lakes and camp anywhere around any of the lakes. Now NPWS have fenced off the bulk of the area for regeneration. Is it the same as the untouched bush? Nope.
It is up to everyone that travels/camps/uses an area to leave it in the best condition possible. One would hope this does not include scars from circle work, small eroded hill climbs, fire pits/ash piles, empties etc. When I was a kid in the Snowies around Yaouk cattle grazing was part and parcel of the land use. I lost count of the times I saw a real fat pig... oh wait, it's a cow, in the spotlight.
Cyclic management may be the answer. Every farmer knows this. Or cane toads.
-
Looks like someone left the paddock gate open >:D up the back of Mt Stirling ;D
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa110/cruzadriver/tomahawk%20hut%20etc/030.jpg)
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa110/cruzadriver/tomahawk%20hut%20etc/029.jpg)
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa110/cruzadriver/tomahawk%20hut%20etc/031.jpg)
-
at the risk of being yell out the grazer that puts cattle up there will have to pay for the priveledge to do so.
anyway while there is cattle up there they can not lock us out
-
BBloody hell, put up a thread and watch'em post!
Thanks for the tone of the posts here. A bit different from the attacks I copped for trying to post some information on the huts thread.
Toad, on page 1 of the thread, yes, I'm opposed to cattle in the high country. The link I posted is to a bibliography of peer reviewed scientific papers over the best part of 60 years, the overwhelming weight of which shows an absence of evidence that grazing reduces / minimises fire risk.
Of course this grazing has a 'romantic' image, however in reality it is nothing more than a few local farmers being able to run more cattle than would be the case if they were limited to their private farm land. In short, a minority of farmers get an advantage over others who don't have access to cheap alpine grazing.
Redback summed it up well – cattle don’t eat leaf litter, so they can’t do much to reduce fuel load in the treed areas.
As to the title of the thread:
I have met a number of MySwagers, and am happy to be judged by how they found me. However, in my opinion what was thrown at me by one poster on the Huts thread is nothing short of ‘dog whistling’. Here is what I mean.
What I posted:
Vallejo Gantner Hut. He was a bushwalker / ski tourer, can't remember which. Gets damn cold there in winter - have built and slept in an 'igloo' there.
The one problem there is that water must be boiled because of cattle nematodes in the water. (Nematodes end up in your BRAIN they are both invisible and dangerous. Don't let kids drink from the supply if you are there.)
Cattlemen have a romantic historic image, but cattle have caused significant environmental damage.
FWI, I would’ve thught that a commnt about the water there, and th need to boil it, was on-topic.
I also responded to a post from Speewa asserrting that grazing reduced the risk of fire. I indicated that to my understanding is that the evidence is to the contrary, and also explained why carrying heaps of water / fuel to boil contaminated water is impractical.
None of my posts or responses from others had been abusive and exchanges had been conducted in a positive spirit – but then it wasn’t the 12 volt thread!
These attacks then followed 24 hours later: (my rebuttal in italics.)
Barry
I call BS on your claim ... You've been greenwashed
(,I or anyone, should give a damn about what you ‘call’ WHY? And what is ‘greenwashed’, other than a bit of BS name calling on your part?)
It's actually the unhygenic disposal (or lack thereof) of human fecal matter that will make you sick up there.
(Feacal bacteria will make you sick anywhere. I did NOT say the water would “make you sick”. What I was talking about is not bacterial, it does not “make you sick”, it is an organism, is largely a-symptomatic, i.e. no symptoms, and takes significant time for the effect of its paristism to appear.
Oh, almost forgot, where is the proof that it is feacal contamination that is the problem with te water supply at Macalister Springs?)
Most of Australia has cattle within drinking water catchments and I haven't seen this one popping up on ACA or TT every fortnight or so with sensationalised headlines to warn the unsuspecting public.
(My apologies, wasn’t aware that being reported on A Current Affair / Today Tonight had become the legal definition what makes an issue legitimate. Wouldn’t matter much though would it, as you say that these programs are “sensationalised”, so either of them reporting something you disagree with would hardly convince you anyway, would it?)
Have a think about it and stop spreading your rubbish
(Think about what, that I don’t rely on ACA / TT as the fonts of all knowledge? Or that you say I am ‘spreading rubbish’?)
Thanx
Stevo
Barry where is this "Heaps of evidence"??? (A link to a bibliography of scientific articles is at the start of this thread. Easy to find on the web, why did you need to ask?)
and regarding the quality of water ... please tell your bushwalking buddies the to follow the basics regarding disposal of their own wastes and then everyone will be able to use the water … (Why not my bike riding / 4X4 driving / camper trailer towing ‘buddies’ as well? Are you from the USA, most Ausies I know would refer to their ‘mates’, not “buddies”. Oh, I get it, bushwalking is ‘un Australian’, so you refer to them by a non-Australian term. What a clever bit of dog whistling!) ... nothing to do with the cattle (and you have what proof of this? Where is YOUR evidence?) unfortuately for those spreading the lies (Now anyone who express a belief that cattle are responsible for water pollution at Macalister Springs are lying? On what basis do you call me a liar? )
you really have been greenwashed (so your claim regarding this in the previous post was wrong, but now it is not? What changed, apart from the fact that I expressed an opinion different to you for the second time.)
Thanx Barry, for your unnecessary response.
Namecalling ??? I called you Barry in both posts and called you nothing else.
(You called me ‘Liar’, lumped me in the un-Australian named group of ‘bushwalking buddies’, and repeatedly referred to me as ‘greenwashed’.)
I resisted the urge to respond to your posts earlier in the hope they would be moderated as irrelevant to the topic,
(so, OK to comment on anything about huts, other than the need to boil water?) unsubstantiated (you didn’t like what evidence I posted) and devisive (I disagreed with what you believe) but after a few days I was unable to let the posts stand unchallenged. (So, the mods should take down down whatever you disagree with 48 hours? What makes you the arbiter?)
Thats how this Greenwashing works ... enough people say it and it becomes fact ... as shown in your post
(More to the point, Dog Whistling works by disparaging people who are different to you, enjoy recreational activities that you don’t, and accusing them of ulterior motives, and without any evidence of your own, accusing them of lying.)
The maps aren't evidence and don't say why the water needs to be boiled - certainly not scientific. (They are certainly evidence that it needed to be boiled, and also that it had not been thought similarly necessary to provide similar warnings for other camp sites.)
which is why your buddies thought it wouldn't effect anyone (presumably you mean walkers in general)...
also less knowledge on the impacts and effects of bad hygiene (Ignorance of the the effects of bad hygiene in 1975, really? Where is your evidence for that? )
It was undrinkable in other places as well ..(Where? On what evidence?)
same argument could be used regarding these "nematodes" and cattle (Why? If the water made people ‘sick’ it would probably be feacal bacteria. As previosly stated, becoming sick is not the problem with nematodes. Nematodes are only introduced by previously infected stock.)
"Bush telegraph" (So, an interview with athe relevant Federal Minister on Radio National, in which he cites the findings of peer reviewed scientific research is not good enough, presumably ACA / TT would be OK though, judging by your previous comments.)
and "Alps at the crossroads" certainly wouldn't pass for scientific evidence (however, it cites plenty scientific evidence including longitudinal studies).
I own a copy of "Alps at the crossroads" and if you've read it like you read my namecalling posts (what, Liar, etc?) I'm not surprised by the conclusions you've drawn.
Coming from a background like yours (which is? … dog whistle) with the "them vs us" mentality (evidence? … dog whistle) of a junior employee on the Dept Crown lands and survey, (dog whistle: public servant = anti-cattlemen) I can see that yourr position is not evidence based anyway.
(That’s right, I was merely in the position to read the correspondence on the files first hand. Those letters are what is known as ‘primary evidence’. Ssome cattlemen were notorious for disregarding requirements of grazing licences. The files went back years, presumably they are now all archived. They should all still be accesable to any enquiry, however.)
Hopefully all these posts can be deleteted as irrelevant to the thread and if you'd wish to discuss it further please start a separate thread and I'll happily discuss there.
Stevo
-
Well handled barry1956. Very interesting thread actually, for a lot of different reasons.
Regards
-
I really want to say something here but I will hold my tongue. I hope another poster does the same.
-
I really want to say something here but I will hold my tongue. I hope another poster does the same.
X2
I am pleased that I have more joyful things to fill out my day than debate about cattle in the high country!
-
I know I am in the middle of night shifts and could very well have missed it, but have been surfing looking for anything dealing with Bovine Nematodes and their affect on Humans and drinking water.
If anyone has something specific to that please post.
From what I could find nematodes are quite prolific and are already in most areas without to much assistance of bovine or other animal and human help.
-
Scientists on both sides can write studies and findings to the cows come home (pardon the pun), the reality is there is a cost with everything we as humans do on the planet. The question in this case should be, is the cost worth the benefit rather than should we do this.
Science is not about 'sides', it is about gaining knowledge from critical review of hypotheses (fancy term for theories) using evidence. Sometimes theories are confirmed, other times not. This process is called 'peer review'. Articles published in scientific journals have all been peer reviewed. Likewise PHD / Masters research papers.
Lots of what appears in the press / books is just 'argument' but hasn't been submitted for peer review and can't be considered genuinely 'scientific'.
IMO, the question is what is the best way to manage our National Parks for their two key purposes - public enjoyment and the maintenance of the environment.
-
Barry,
Your off topic and unsubstantiated claims in the other thread remain BS.
You have shown no scientic basis for your claims and nor has anyone else.
Maps and stories don't cut it
Stevo
-
Lighten up lads ;D
Dunno about Grazing but they are certainly breeding :cheers: :cheers:
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_SvJrd41Xau0/TJOXScVkZ7I/AAAAAAAABO8/Yw3lcbMG3TI/s1600/James+Johnstone3+-+email.jpg)
Always look on the bright side of life.......:cheers:
-
Jeezus guys, whatever happened to civil discusions, this ain't Overlander ???
-
Someone call the locksmith.
-
Jeezus guys, whatever happened to civil discusions, this ain't Overlander ???
I think the cows are being very civil towards each other, unless of course they're bulls then that is another topic altogether.
-
Someone call the locksmith.
haha ;D
-
Just a few points from personal experience.
It is not rich land barons that run their stock there.
It is not free,they pay the govt for the priveledge.
A lot of the argument was originally that the govt had contracts for the next number of years.These contracts got cancelled with very little notice,leaving several with little option than to cull significant numbers of their herds.
Are people aware that one of the reasons given for no longer allowing grazing was because of proposed commercial developement of the area?
I was very involved when this was originaly decided but my memory is shot and I can't recall many of the details.As to research that has been done regarding reducing fire hazards I believe that there was equal ammounts of peer tested studies on both sides of that debate and nothing conclusive was able to be decided.
As for hard hooved animals causing major damage the argument was put forward that there are twice the number of goats and horses( brumbies) in the area than there are cows.This was supported by NPWS and NPWS even suggested the eradication of these species before restricting or banning grazing.
I love that area of our country and have spent much time there. I have no real opinion on whether grazing should be allowed or not but ,I do have definate views on the area being locked down or commercial interest allowed to access areas (paid tours etc) that the general public cannot.
-
Lighten up lads ;D
Dunno about Grazing but they are certainly breeding :cheers: :cheers:
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_SvJrd41Xau0/TJOXScVkZ7I/AAAAAAAABO8/Yw3lcbMG3TI/s1600/James+Johnstone3+-+email.jpg)
Always look on the bright side of life.......:cheers:
Look's like scientific proof, The grass is not greener on the other side of that fence... :cup:
-
& if it is you end up getting it given to you asusual >:D
-
Barry,
Your off topic and unsubstantiated claims in the other thread remain BS.
You have shown no scientic basis for your claims and nor has anyone else.
Maps and stories don't cut it
Stevo
Stevo, here is the page of peer reviewed posts to scientific articles of the impact of cattle grazing, previously posted on page 1 of this thread. http://www.cowpaddock.com/references.html
Happy to see anything similar for scientific published articles to the contrary.
No I don't have any documentary evidence from 35 years ago, however I was there at the time and put my recollections on the forum for the benefit of others - all can take it or leave it as they choose.
You obviously see humans as the source of water pollution at Mac Springs, would be happy to see your evidence for that?
-
Jeezus guys, whatever happened to civil discusions, this ain't Overlander ???
Baz,
I think I have been civil / rational in my posts. I started this thread in order to try and have a coherent discussion on the subject of cattle grazing. I think most posting to it have done so in that spirit.
There is always the minority who choose not to. Such is Life.
-
Just a few points from personal experience.
It is not rich land barons that run their stock there.
It is not free,they pay the govt for the priveledge.
A lot of the argument was originally that the govt had contracts for the next number of years.These contracts got cancelled with very little notice,leaving several with little option than to cull significant numbers of their herds.
Are people aware that one of the reasons given for no longer allowing grazing was because of proposed commercial developement of the area?
I was very involved when this was originaly decided but my memory is shot and I can't recall many of the details.As to research that has been done regarding reducing fire hazards I believe that there was equal ammounts of peer tested studies on both sides of that debate and nothing conclusive was able to be decided.
As for hard hooved animals causing major damage the argument was put forward that there are twice the number of goats and horses( brumbies) in the area than there are cows.This was supported by NPWS and NPWS even suggested the eradication of these species before restricting or banning grazing.
I love that area of our country and have spent much time there. I have no real opinion on whether grazing should be allowed or not but ,I do have definate views on the area being locked down or commercial interest allowed to access areas (paid tours etc) that the general public cannot.
Hello stockhorse,
To clarify, I didn't say that it was the land barons who run cattle up there and yes they do pay a licence fee. However, the reason they do it is to increase production over and above what they could do on there own properties. All other farmers have to make do with their own productive capacity, or lease grazing land at commercial rates.
I know what you mean about memory - happy to accept your recollections as genuine.
I would be happy to be directed to any peer reviewed material which comes to a different view with regard to effects of cattle grazing with respect to reducing fire risk.
Yes, previous governments had sold long term licences to try and 'lock in' grazing rights and stop future governments from ending the practice.
Don't disagree with you about the problems of pigs etc. However, can't see why it should be made worse by reintroducing cattle.
Totally agree that commercial tour operators shouldn't be able to have preferential access to areas. As to areas being locked down, that is always a risk if too many ignore track closures / go off-track / leave rubbish, etc.
-
Back in the early 70's I worked on a property that bordered state forest in Far Eastern vic out of Buchan. We had cattle only on freehold land and access to the forest also. Our biggest pest was blackberrys and rabbits followed by native invasive species with no help from govt departments to control any. The only thing that controlled the imported pests at the time were the cattle, without them we would not have kept the blackberry brier growths to a localized area so we could easily access them for spray control and the rabbits that also used these for shelter/warren building were also localized so making it easier for control. We also sold timber under government royalty situations from this property, from country that was full of brumbys,I can still remember the brumby traps run by the local policeman. I doubt there are any signs or very few now of these activities. These are all pests that we introduced many years ago and only now are coming to grips with,but the cattle should prevail as they can help with control and are also a controlled number themselves,not out of hand like the biggest pest.
The biggest pest is now ourselves, we are ALL to blame for what has happened, what we now do by visiting with uncontrolled relentlesness in the vision of tourism/sightseeing is creating more than a few hundred cattle have over the years.
Even though we love this country, and believe me I do, we must control our own parade of tourism to some of the areas.
Sorry for the rant but thats what a bottle of chardonnay does, I support both sides!!
regards
jimsiron
-
Sorry for the rant but thats what a bottle of chardonnay does
As I was reading your post I was thinking you were a tough man of the land, until I read that last line. I'm now thinking Brokeback mountain :)
-
As I was reading your post I was thinking you were a tough man of the land, until I read that last line. I'm now thinking Brokeback mountain :)
The broke part is correct as I have a daughters wedding to pay for in a fortnights time!!!
-
No I don't have any documentary evidence from 35 years ago, however I was there at the time and put my recollections on the forum for the benefit of others - all can take it or leave it as they choose.
I called BS and it remains BS until you show otherwise.
I fail to see how two threads of your BS are a benefit to others but like you say, we can take it or leave it
thanx anyway
Stevo
-
And what about the balance of the post you quote?
... here is the page of peer reviewed posts to scientific articles of the impact of cattle grazing, previously posted on page 1 of this thread. http://www.cowpaddock.com/references.html
Happy to see anything similar for scientific published articles to the contrary.
No I don't have any documentary evidence from 35 years ago, however I was there at the time and put my recollections on the forum for the benefit of others - all can take it or leave it as they choose.
You obviously see humans as the source of water pollution at Mac Springs, would be happy to see your evidence for that?
So, you have no evidence that humans are the cause of water pollution at Mac Springs and offer nothing in regard to scientifically accepted evidence about cattle reducing fire risks in the high country. Any wonder you seem like a dog whistler.
-
I think somebody has ingested to many nematodes in the past
-
I think somebody has ingested to many nematodes in the past
:cup:
-
Some of the places I go have cowpats ... I like em personally ... Some of the places I go have people ... I don't like most of em personally (call me picky if you like) ... Some of the places I go are where people have gone before me ... I can tell as they leave both their own "cowpats" and most of their rubbish.
I think we should address the People Problems before we start on the poor old cows
... as for the High Country ... Looks like cows come with 4WD too ... at least they only leave cowpats behind ... ;D
Kit_e
-
And what about the balance of the post you quote?
Irrelevant to your original post and to what I called you on ...
Seems a vain attempt to drag me down to your level and then beat me with experience
(still trying to find a fantastic little .gif i've seen to illustrate this perfectly)
Not the first or, unfortunately not the last keyboard warrior I'll meet in internetland
-
As I was reading your post I was thinking you were a tough man of the land, until I read that last line. I'm now thinking Brokeback mountain :)
:cup: :cup: ;D
-
The broke part is correct as I have a daughters wedding to pay for in a fortnights time!!!
[/quote
Forgot to add, run out of Vitamin B and couldnt be fagged in going to get a slab tonight so drank the first cold bottle in the fridge!!
-
(http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s159/utedriver/Rubicon%20Swag%20trip%202011%20March/IMG_5924.jpg)
Spotted at Whiskey Creek hut 5/3/2011
(http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s159/utedriver/Rubicon%20Swag%20trip%202011%20March/IMG_5922.jpg)
15m from the Rubicon River...
-
And what about the balance of the post you quote?
... here is the page of peer reviewed posts to scientific articles of the impact of cattle grazing, previously posted on page 1 of this thread. http://www.cowpaddock.com/references.html
Happy to see anything similar for scientific published articles to the contrary.
No I don't have any documentary evidence from 35 years ago, however I was there at the time and put my recollections on the forum for the benefit of others - all can take it or leave it as they choose.
You obviously see humans as the source of water pollution at Mac Springs, would be happy to see your evidence for that?
So, you have no evidence that humans are the cause of water pollution at Mac Springs and offer nothing in regard to scientifically accepted evidence about cattle reducing fire risks in the high country. Any wonder you seem like a dog whistler.
Barry,
I still can not find any link with bovine Nematodes getting into human brains and Mac Springs. You link, which doesn't really supply much info, is tittles of studies dealing mainly with land, soil and water degradation caused allegedly by only cattle, no other animal.
There is nothing mentioned about the increase in black berry growth in the High Country since the cattle have been removed. after all is was part of the deal of cattle being allowed in the High Country, that the Cattle man control the black berries. Now no cattle no black berry control. It seems to be a lose/lose situation at present, unless you are a one eyed greenie and see it somehow different
-
Barry,
I still can not find any link with bovine Nematodes getting into human brains and Mac Springs. You link, which doesn't really supply much info, is tittles of studies dealing mainly with land, soil and water degradation caused allegedly by only cattle, no other animal.
There is nothing mentioned about the increase in black berry growth in the High Country since the cattle have been removed. after all is was part of the deal of cattle being allowed in the High Country, that the Cattle man control the black berries. Now no cattle no black berry control. It seems to be a lose/lose situation at present, unless you are a one eyed greenie and see it somehow different
alnjan
I was asked where was the 'heaps of evidence' about cattle damage in the high country, so I posted the link to the bibliography of articles on same.
What 'deal' was blackberry control part of? The only 'deal' I am aware of is the payment of licence fees in return for running the cattle in the high country.
Can't imagine cattle preferring blackberries to grass, but happy to be shown that I'm wrong.
Not aware that blackberries have been a problem on the Bogong High Plains that I am aware of, and they didn't appear to be rampant in the lower areas around Marathon Road, or at Grant, when I was in those areas over the New Year.
-
(http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s159/utedriver/Rubicon%20Swag%20trip%202011%20March/IMG_5924.jpg)
Spotted at Whiskey Creek hut 5/3/2011
(http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s159/utedriver/Rubicon%20Swag%20trip%202011%20March/IMG_5922.jpg)
15m from the Rubicon River...
I recognise the 'giant kelpie dog from outer space' in the background. ;D
-
Barry at Loyds Knob along the creek bank Blackberries were as rampent as could be . you may have seen them as you went to collect drinking water . I make a point chipping any small plants that are just getting started in a attempt to slow the spread .when ever I am out & about .
-
http://sale.yourguide.com.au/news/local/news/environment/cattle-back-grazing-in-the-high-country/2047444.aspx
Cattle back grazing in the High Country
14 Jan, 2011 09:36 AM
IN a coup for mountain cattlemen, the State Government has allowed cattle to re-enter pockets of Victoria's Alpine National Parks, after being locked out of the High Country for more than five years.
Announced on Wednesday, the re-introduction of cattle is part of the State Government's trial of strategic grazing in a bid to reduce fuel loads in the High Country.
The news was welcomed by the Mountain Cattlemens Association of Victoria, with president and Licola resident Mark Coleman calling the move a victory for common sense.
"This is a government decision based on common sense and will seek solutions to long term good management of our public land,'' Mr Coleman said.
"In 2005, the Labor Government kicked us out of the Parks for short term political gain.
"This new government is to be congratulated for having the courage to revisit that very bad decision and to accept in principle what the MCAV had been saying about grazing and fuel reduction for more than 50 years.
"Members of the MCAV stand ready to assist this exciting project and to pass on their knowledge as to how the High Country should be managed and cared for.''
The trial, commissioned by the Department of Sustainability and Environment, has returned 400 cattle to the High Country this week into to six sites over 25,600 hectares, or 3.9 per cent of the Alpine National Park, for the remainder of the 2010-2011 grazing season, which runs until April 30.
According to Environment and Climate Change Minister Ryan Smith, the trial, undertaken by Professor Mark Adams of the Bushfire Co-operative Research Centre, was hoped to provide evidence on the efficiency of strategic cattle grazing for fuel and fire management purposes.
"The Coalition Government is committed to making transparent and informed decisions on bushfire management in Victoria's High Country based on credible scientific evidence,'' Mr Smith said.
"Current information on the effect of cattle grazing for bushfire mitigation is limited.
Also,
http://www.mcav.com.au/Environmental%20Benefits%20of%20High%20Country%20Grazing.pdf
The other side of the fence, so to speak
But still nothing about Nematodes affecting human brains at Mac Springs?????
-
What I can find (or NOT find) on the Nematodes at Mac Springs
http://forums.ski.com.au/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1238245&page=0
Even the hikers are unsure and call it an Urban Myth.
Oh well Barry you made the call in the Hut thread, can you provide anything to substaniate your claim
The one problem there is that water must be boiled because of cattle nematodes in the water. (Nematodes end up in your BRAIN they are both invisible and dangerous. Don't let kids drink from the supply if you are there.)
Cattlemen have a romantic historic image, but cattle have caused significant environmental damage.
-
Barry at Loyds Knob along the creek bank Blackberries were as rampent as could be . you may have seen them as you went to collect drinking water . I make a point chipping any small plants that are just getting started in a attempt to slow the spread .when ever I am out & about .
Speewa, there have been blackberries along water courses ever since Von Mueller went through the area. However, they are clearly not everywhere across the hills and over the tracks.
The argument that I responded to implied that without grazing blackberries would take over. Clearly this is not the case in the areas we drove through.
Arguably grazing of blackberries, assuming that cattle do, could potentially spread infestations, if any survived the beasts guts and were passed in dung - similar to spread of pest plants by birds.
Chip away all you like, and good on you for doing so, but you will make no difference at the landscape level.
-
What I can find (or NOT find) on the Nematodes at Mac Springs
http://forums.ski.com.au/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1238245&page=0
Even the hikers are unsure and call it an Urban Myth.
Oh well Barry you made the call in the Hut thread, can you provide anything to substaniate your claim
The one problem there is that water must be boiled because of cattle nematodes in the water. (Nematodes end up in your BRAIN they are both invisible and dangerous. Don't let kids drink from the supply if you are there.)
Cattlemen have a romantic historic image, but cattle have caused significant environmental damage.
alnjan,
I have already indicated that I do not have any documentation from 40 years ago:
... No I don't have any documentary evidence from 35 years ago, however I was there at the time and put my recollections on the forum for the benefit of others - all can take it or leave it as they choose. ...
I notice that, while sschmez has not provided any evidence for his definitive statement that poor water at Mac Springs is caused by poor human hygiene, you do not attack him for that.
-
(http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s159/utedriver/Rubicon%20Swag%20trip%202011%20March/IMG_5922.jpg)
15m from the Rubicon River...
That's some big Nematodes!
-
I notice that, while sschmez has not provided any evidence for his definitive statement that poor water at Mac Springs is caused by poor human hygiene, you do not attack him for that.
I, unlike yourself haven't made any outrageous claims
-
alnjan,
I have already indicated that I do not have any documentation from 40 years ago:
... No I don't have any documentary evidence from 35 years ago, however I was there at the time and put my recollections on the forum for the benefit of others - all can take it or leave it as they choose. ...
I notice that, while sschmez has not provided any evidence for his definitive statement that poor water at Mac Springs is caused by poor human hygiene, you do not attack him for that.
If it was the case 40 or 35 yrs ago and people are still concerned about it now, surely someone would have tested the water. with regard to sschmez reference to human waste, even the hikers in the link refer to questionable human waste. Who knows until the water is tested for a definite answer I guess it will remain an Urban Myth. Who knows what the Springs or any under ground water actually passes through to be contaminated with.
http://forums.ski.com.au/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1238245&page=0
-
I thought an anemictoad was a skinny frog, boy dont I feel silly now. :cheers:
-
http://sale.yourguide.com.au/news/local/news/environment/cattle-back-grazing-in-the-high-country/2047444.aspx
Cattle back grazing in the High Country
14 Jan, 2011 09:36 AM
IN a coup for mountain cattlemen, the State Government has allowed cattle to re-enter pockets of Victoria's Alpine National Parks, after being locked out of the High Country for more than five years.
Announced on Wednesday, the re-introduction of cattle is part of the State Government's trial of strategic grazing in a bid to reduce fuel loads in the High Country.
The news was welcomed by the Mountain Cattlemens Association of Victoria, with president and Licola resident Mark Coleman calling the move a victory for common sense.
"This is a government decision based on common sense and will seek solutions to long term good management of our public land,'' Mr Coleman said.
"In 2005, the Labor Government kicked us out of the Parks for short term political gain.
"This new government is to be congratulated for having the courage to revisit that very bad decision and to accept in principle what the MCAV had been saying about grazing and fuel reduction for more than 50 years.
"Members of the MCAV stand ready to assist this exciting project and to pass on their knowledge as to how the High Country should be managed and cared for.''
The trial, commissioned by the Department of Sustainability and Environment, has returned 400 cattle to the High Country this week into to six sites over 25,600 hectares, or 3.9 per cent of the Alpine National Park, for the remainder of the 2010-2011 grazing season, which runs until April 30.
According to Environment and Climate Change Minister Ryan Smith, the trial, undertaken by Professor Mark Adams of the Bushfire Co-operative Research Centre, was hoped to provide evidence on the efficiency of strategic cattle grazing for fuel and fire management purposes.
"The Coalition Government is committed to making transparent and informed decisions on bushfire management in Victoria's High Country based on credible scientific evidence,'' Mr Smith said.
"Current information on the effect of cattle grazing for bushfire mitigation is limited.
Also,
http://www.mcav.com.au/Environmental%20Benefits%20of%20High%20Country%20Grazing.pdf
The other side of the fence, so to speak
.......
alanjan,
You cite an article from a local paper and a document with no author, attributions or citations. Neither can be considered scientific evidence.
The first is little more than the regurgitation of a partisan press release, not an unusual practice for local papers everywhere.
The second, while included on the MCAoV website under the heading of 'Scientific studies', is neither. Although I do not dispute that the views it expresses are genuinely held by the author, whoever he / she may be, it is neither a study nor is it scientific.
At the foot of the link I have previously posted http://www.cowpaddock.com/references.html is a document titled Independent assessment of the science. This makes reference to a number of documents provided by the Mountain Cattlemen's Association, which I was unable to find on the MCA web site. The 'Independent assessment of the sciance' provides considered assessments as to why weight should or should not be given to the various documents on 'both sides' of the debate and forms a reasoned conclusion based on the evidence.
-
I, unlike yourself haven't made any outrageous claims
You were blaming 'my' bushwalking 'buddies'.
Where is your evidence that it was walkers, rather than hunters / bike riders / car tourers who were the problem, if indeed human waste was the problem?
In the absence of documentation from 40 years ago I will try and find something on the life cycle of nematodes in humans. I don't believe that anyone is disputing that they are nasty and you wouldn't want to get a dose of them, which was the point of my initial post.
Still trying to work out the reason for your aggressiveness. Why exactly are you so anti-bushwalker? As Darren said, some of us enjoy more than one activity.
-
The whistle blows, and that's it.
A terrific game, both sides played hard, but once again, just like most soccer games, there was no result :-[
Let's move on. There is not enough merit in the respective arguments to sustain more debate.
-
is there anywhere i can leave my cow
-
The whistle blows, and that's it.
A terrific game, both sides played hard, but once again, just like most soccer games, there was no result :-[
Let's move on. There is not enough merit in the respective arguments to sustain more debate.
Blow the whistle Jules, long and hard, because I don't think anyone is benefiting from this so called debate, least of all the Myswag Forum.
-
Agree, it's so exploroz.
-
No worries Gents,
Just trying to establish fact from myth, but it always pays to be cautious.
-
Clearly, this is not a commercial site however it provides a good description of the effect of infestation and also how they are endemic in the soil. http://www.vaxa.com/roundworms.cfm
Presumably at Mac Springs, if present, they would travel from the soil into the water supply via seepage / overland flow of water.
I note the following sentence from the info on the link: Once the eggs are ingested in the body, the roundworm larvae travels through the liver, lungs, and other organs. In most cases, these "wandering worms" cause no symptoms or apparent damage.
So, my memory does not totally fail me.
While it probably doesn't satisfy sschmez or alanjan, it at least describes circumstances generally consistent with what I posted with respect to:
1/. Being a-symptomatic at the time of drinking the water (as distinct from faecies infestation);
2/. resulting from a localised infestation of the parasites;
3/. Causing severe long term problems for humans who suffer an infestation.
Clearly this is significantly different to a generic 'human waste' problem, if one exists at Mac Springs.
Some video links here, including one (admittedly from Fox News) titled: A woman mis-diagnosed with a brain tumor in fact had worms in her brain.
I have not watched it as yet, but would seem to indicate that such things are possible.
In the end, drink at Mac Springs as you wish ...
-
Extra time............................change sides!!
I haven't seen any slide tackles or punches thrown yet.
For what it is worth Barry, regardless of the evidence presented, I think your pi$$ing into the wind with this one.
;D ;D ;D