Are ride on mower horses weaker than tractor horses

[terravista]

Hi
I am looking at buying some acreage that will require a tractor. Not some enormous behemoth, but a smaller or midsize machine for slashing, moving dirt with a bucket, maybe having a borer or backhoe attachment working off a 3 point linkage and digging in natural dirt, not rock hard volcanic plateaus.
I don't expect to move The Earth just move some earth.
I have trolled through ads for things like Kubotas, Fiats, Yanmars etc and they seem to have accessories I could use but they have engines ranging from 17HP to 30HP. I even drooled over an ad for a 1973 Lamborghini and thought of how I'd raise the suspension on a Miura SV to pull the slasher over rough ground, until I saw the rampaging bull emblem stuck on the front of a tractor. What a let down.
My concerns are that my ride on mower has a 17HP motor, and even in low gear it can struggle moving 300kg while cutting grass, and it would have no hope of dragging a tonne plus of tractor and dig holes or trenches.
So, are tractor HP ratings different to mowers? Are they geared so much better that a dinky little engine would do the work as advertised, or is the marketing like the comparison between a picture of a Big Mac on the wall of the eatery compared to the flattened greasy washed out cardboard/cotton wool tasting product you get wrapped in a scrunched up non effective grease proof paper?
Does anyone have experience with these smaller tractors?
Are they gimmicks or do they work to moderate expectations?
Does the brand not matter or are they like a Stihl chainsaw compared to chinese knock-offs?
Any help or advice would be appreciated.
Cheers
Ian
 

[KingBilly]

Ride on mowers have a hydrostatic gearbox about the size of a coconut whereas a small tractor has a proper gearbox, most with dual range, so are capable of moving/pulling greater weights.

A small, sub 40HP, tractor may be OK to move loose dirt or wood chips etc, but won't have much "digging" capability.  You would need to rip up the site with a plow or something if you want to level it and move the dirt easily.  A bucket on a small tractor will just be capable of skimming the surface.

A post hole borer on a small tractor won't have much down force but is OK in light country.

A slasher won't give a manicured lawn finish and will give rougher finish compared to a ride on.

Lots of the small brand name tractors, think green, blue and red, all come out of China or India these days.  It is only the big HP ones which are still made in Europe and the States.

KB

[Mace]

KB is pretty right.

Also remember that tractor horses are usually deisel powered in addition to their proper gear boxes and additional weight. Gives greater longivity.

 

[terravista]

Thanks guys
The ground is expected to be pretty good like alluvial soils, but if something bigger was needed I could get in a contractor for heavier work, but I guess it's a balance of a smaller unit now for most of the work, or a bigger machine for all the work.
I do like the idea of a smaller machine so if I have a heart attack I won't have as far to fall, but it's no point just scratching around denting the dirt either.
In the power stakes, would 35HP be twice as good at 17HP or is there a ratio involved that is dependant on the weight of the machine and the gearing?
Basically, should I go as many horses I can get, or could 40HP to 50HP be considered enough for non heavy use?
Cheers
Ian

[KingBilly]

For a small hobby farm, reckon a 35hp would be good.  Remember that is more than what my grandfather earned a living with 50 years ago and raised 10 kids.

Bigger, means bigger expenses as well.

Think you really need to sit down and see what you will use it for first.  And I wouldn't recommend rushing out and buying one before you have had at least 6 months living on the new block.  I know lots of folks who have been got caught up in the excitement of moving to the country and want to live out their boyhood sandpit experiences with a tractor and loader and have regretted their hasty decision later.  Just saying, not having a crack.

You can pay for lots of contractors and their bobcats plus a contract slasher to knock all the heavy stuff down for a fraction of the cost of a small tractor.  After all the heavy stuff is done, you may survive very easily with a ride on or a small mid mount mower.

KB

[Mace]

Also, tractor HP ratings are usually given for PTO output, not  engine crankshaft output - so slightly complicated.

Id seriously look at second hand, should be heaps of "hobby" units out there loaded with all the gear and low hours.

Something like this and you could move some earth! Pity its in SA. Its a real tractor, not a toy.
 
http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/birdwood/heavy-farming-agriculture-equipment/mf-135-with-front-end-loader-second-hand/1060054438

Half the cost there would be the bucket.

Well maintained tractors should be good for 3000 hours (plus)  before an engine rebuild.

Dont rush, keep looking around. Our last MF165 only cost $8000.  Ok, it was a 20 year old tractor at the time, but only  with 1800 hours on the clock and in great condition. Its still  going strong back on the mainland and is now about 35 years young.

[chester ver2.0]

For a small hobby farm, reckon a 35hp would be good.  Remember that is more than what my grandfather earned a living with 50 years ago and raised 10 kids.

Bigger, means bigger expenses as well.

Think you really need to sit down and see what you will use it for first.  And I wouldn't recommend rushing out and buying one before you have had at least 6 months living on the new block.  I know lots of folks who have been got caught up in the excitement of moving to the country and want to live out their boyhood sandpit experiences with a tractor and loader and have regretted their hasty decision later.  Just saying, not having a crack.

You can pay for lots of contractors and their bobcats plus a contract slasher to knock all the heavy stuff down for a fraction of the cost of a small tractor.  After all the heavy stuff is done, you may survive very easily with a ride on or a small mid mount mower.

KB

Best comment every my brother in law bought a fancy one for his farm and guess what hardly ever used
Quadbike with spray attachment
Bobcat with various attachments
and the humble ute

Are the most used items by far

[terravista]

All helpful comments so far, must be a Myswag record.
I am moving from 2 acres to what we hope will be around 30 to 50 acres, but half of it will be left natural.
I have played with a Dingo once and if what I get is not all that much better I think it would be fine.
I have seen an ad for a Kubota with 3 (or 4) way bucket, slasher, and backhoe attachment for
$7 000, with less than 500 hours, and if I have to drive interstate to get a good one I will, but I just want to be sure I am not spending money on what would become a garden ornament.
If I need bigger and dearer I will look at that, but a smaller one does have more appeal (the missus might use it) and I don't mind used but not abused.
Cheers
ian

[GGV8Cruza]

Have a chat ti BigJules. He was and maybe selling tractors

GG

[Mace]

The one thing full size tractors are also useful for is preparing bare earth firetrails with a rear 3PL mounted blade and for carrying a 1000 litre fire fighting units on.

[briann532]

We bought a 35 hp tractor for our property from Sota tractors.

Great unit, works well and priced affordably too.

http://sotatractors.com/

Brute strength when its needed and slashes at high speed.

[Steffo1]

I would not recommend a 3PL backhoe attachment.

[terravista]

I would not recommend a 3PL backhoe attachment.

Hi
Care to elaborate on that?
I don't query the reasoning of your response, but is it they don't work well?
I have seen plenty advertised separate to tractors as well as attached, but if they are innefective or dangerous I wouldn't mind knowing before wastng money on one.
Cheers
Ian

[Steffo1]

 The 3pl setup is exactly that! I know the backhoes come with a mounting bar & stabilisers but have a look at a "proper" hoe & unless your usage is for very malleable material, the structural integrity of the setup, in my opinion anyway, is dodgy.
I have a fairly solid, wheeled tractor with a 45 Perkins Diesel & I would not fit one to mine.
I'm quite happy to be corrected on this, by the way 
Steve

[xcvator]

Can I throw my 2 cents worth in here too 

1/ You get what you pay for with small diesel engines. Try and get a machine with a "Yanmar" engine, not neccessarily a Yanmar machine, they are renowned as being the best small diesel engines

2/ Bigger hp rating isn't a true guide, small bobcats are generally around 30/35 hp and a 5 ton excavator will be 30/40 hp it's all in the hydraulics and pumps.

3/ 3 point linkage back hoe attachments will dig ok, BUT they are an absolute pain in the bum to attach and remove ( I had 1 for 7 years )

4/ Just get experienced contractors to do the bulk of the work for you, they will do more in a day than you will in a week, they have to maintain the machinery, have the insurances if they dig up the local Telstra cable etc.

5/ If you really want to get a versatile machine try looking at a 2nd hand,low hours "positrack" bobcat ( the one on rubber tracks). Controls are very easy to use,( all hand, no foot pedals, very intuitive ) no flat tyres, almost unboggable, and a huge range of attachments are available

My qualifications for these views...............30 years digging holes and filling them in with this type of machinery 

[speewa158]

l had a 18hp Kabota diesel used to slash, push dirt with its dozer blade on the front & rear bucket scoop  . Very handy but 34years old . Replaced it with a Kioti CS2510 with a 4 way bucket . Very handy kit indeed . l landscape small blocks & maintain 150 acre estate  so its got its work sorted out for quite a while . As has been said go live on the block for a season & take note of what you really need to do before you kit up . Contractors can do the job in record time compared to your weekends  of toil . Go camping & let the Pros at it , you can do the slashing if you want 

[terravista]

All good responses and recommendations.
This move would be associated with semi retirement, so if a small machine takes a few days to do something a contractor can do with bigger machinery at $90/hour, after a few jobs I'd have a small used machine paid for as well as the satisfaction that if the job is stuffed up I know who to blame.
If I find the need for larger machine after a while I would assume the little machine could be sold or traded for enough to justify the original purchase.
Also the money saved will let me buy fuel and the work will keep me fit to go touring, and I can come back every few months for more work.
Overall, it looks like a small machine will be suitable for what I anticipate needing it for.
Many thanks
Ian

[Mik01]

Depends on your terrain too.
Get a bobcat maybe for the digging etc?

[terravista]

Depends on your terrain too.
Get a bobcat maybe for the digging etc?

I've seen too many Bobcat operators with dead backs from bouncing around in them all day.
I have lasted this long without serious back problems and don't want to tempt fate too much.
Otherwise they seem nice a good piece of kit, but from what our subbies say they are costly to repair.
The terrain is expected to be moderate at worst, and steep sections can stay the way they are for the wallbies and bandicoots.
Cheers
Ian

[lino6]

In regards to power, remember it isn't the horses that makes it pull, its the torque. A 1000 hp F1 car couldn't pull a B double where a 435 hp Mack could, because of the torque. So a 17 hp 3 cyl tractor would have more torque than a 17 hp Briggs and Stratton mower. Then, as others have said, gearboxes and diffs transfer the torque to the ground better in a tractor than a B&S powered mower.

I have a 25c David Brown, built in the 50's (so nearly as old as speewa) and although its only about 20 hp, would pull a disc plough around the paddock than any Toyota on the market!

[speewa158]

Lino 6 Just who gave you 25cents l wouldn't trust you across the street to buy the paper with stolen money even if l could see you the whole time