Author Topic: Power and gas is to expensive.  (Read 199681 times)

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Offline GeoffA

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #250 on: June 21, 2018, 10:59:52 PM »
....
Surely it’s only political agendas stopping us from making our own solar powered pumped hydro sites in remote areas all over the country.
....

...and, it could also argued that it's only political agendas stopping us from having a reliable, affordable energy supply....

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Offline tryagain

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #251 on: June 22, 2018, 12:34:56 AM »
Not trying to be smart, genuine question here.
What’s stopping plans like the solar pumped hydro they want to build in NQ going ahead now?

We have a private company wanting to use otherwise useless sloping ground (ie; no good for residential, farming or mining) and using solar to pump water up hill and using gravity to run turbines downhill on demand.
It’s got to be as close to perpetual energy as we can get, isn’t it?
Nothing wrong with that one, it's an ideal site for pumped hydro which is why it looks like it will go ahead, but it's pretty unique.


I agree we don’t have the steep ranges with constant running rivers or easy access to natural thermal like some others, but as a country we have no problems digging massive holes in the ground, we have plenty of sunshine and always manage to find plenty of water for industry when it suits.
Surely it’s only political agendas stopping us from making our own solar powered pumped hydro sites in remote areas all over the country.

I don't think political agendas have that much to do with it, to the main issue is cost, keep in mind it's the Libs (with Tony's agreement) that have instigated Snowy 2.0. The Kidston project stacks up because the bulk of the earthworks have already been completed, if you have to do that from scratch then the cost is a whole lot higher. the other issue with pumped hydro is that the sites that would be ideal are also often area's of significant scenic value, you think people whinge about wind turbines being ugly, I think that it would be nothing compared to placing rammed earth turkey nest dams on the top of scenic mountain ranges. The other issue is proximity to the grid, there would possibly be remote sites that are suitable, but the cost of transmission then becomes the limiting factor.



And I’m sorry, but I can’t agree that Tony “science is crap” Abbott has any other agenda then the one he makes very clear every time he speaks on the energy subject.
Shouting from the backbench about how ugly wind farms are and how the government should build their own coal fired power plants hardly says open minded to a proper mix of generation to me.

I think that with Tony it's a partly a money thing, he hates that renewables have been subsidised to the extent they have, especially when he, at a minimum, thinks the potential effects have been significantly overblown by the proponents of renewable energy, I think he is also doing a good job of playing to his base but I also think that there is a big part of it that is that the people on the other side of the debate are the people who his naturally political enemy's, and he has always liked a good stoush.

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #252 on: June 22, 2018, 08:52:37 AM »
Apparently it is....

Newspoll

Publisher: The Australian
Methodology: Online panel and robopolling, which does not include mobiles.
Sample size: About 1,600-1,800 for most surveys.
Frequency: Usually once a fortnight, but three-week breaks are not uncommon. Once a week during election campaigns.



Ipsos

Publisher: Fairfax Media
Methodology: Live phone polling, which includes mobiles.
Sample size: 1,400
Frequency: Monthly, but will appear more frequently during election campaigns.



Galaxy

Publisher: News Limited tabloids
Methodology: Online panel and live phone, including mobiles.
Sample size: 1,200 to 1,700.
Frequency: Infrequent outside election campaigns.
thats why the whole "highest level " is bullShit. **** thats not even a country town worth of people.

Come back with a poll of 3-4 million (which would be a reasonable amount going off the population clock 2017 if they want some form of credibility.
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Offline Pete79

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #253 on: June 22, 2018, 09:13:55 AM »
thats why the whole "highest level " is bullShit. **** thats not even a country town worth of people.

Come back with a poll of 3-4 million (which would be a reasonable amount going off the population clock 2017 if they want some form of credibility.

I agree, but that is all of the polls that make all of the headlines at election time (and whenever the outcomes suit which ever parties argument at that point in time).

Pretty ridiculous isn’t it?
1,600 people can dictate a parties policy direction..... ???

I’ve often wondered how you got onto their polling register and how easy it would be to stack the numbers.

Offline JusyApples

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #254 on: June 22, 2018, 09:20:12 AM »
Stop subsidies for renewables. Build a Shit load of coal fired power stations and I'd be happy.
I don't want to be like south Australia and constantly have black outs.

Climate change.... please, the climate has been changing long before we were around. It will continue to change with or without human activity.
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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #255 on: June 22, 2018, 09:40:35 AM »
Quote from: Pete79
I agree, but that is all of the polls that make all of the headlines at election time (and whenever the outcomes suit which ever parties argument at that point in time).

Pretty ridiculous isn’t it?
1,600 people can dictate a parties policy direction..... ???

I’ve often wondered how you got onto their polling register and how easy it would be to stack the numbers.
I like it when they say the figures were "Seasonally Adjusted..." WTF?



Quote from: JusyApples
Stop subsidies for renewables. Build a Shit load of coal fired power stations and I'd be happy.
I don't want to be like south Australia and constantly have black outs.

Climate change.... please, the climate has been changing long before we were around. It will continue to change with or without human activity.
I'm with you. Or how about stop closing power stations until there is a better viable reliable cost effective solution... And no point doing it of majority of other countries are giving it the middle finger.
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Offline Fizzie

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #256 on: June 22, 2018, 09:52:49 AM »
But you ask 1200 people in the inner city green heartland (full of DINKs) and use push polling techniques to get the answer you want. Eg. Global warming is a serious and pressing problem. We must do something now even if it at a significant cost. Agree/Disagree (note invariably not on a scale of 1 - 10) nor in relation to other pressing problems Eg. rising health care costs, rising age care costs, rising education services cost etc. I guess most can see the picture.

I do quite a few online surveys (& think I may have had input on this one a little while ago ???), & it's not like Sir Humphrey's method https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA! :D

There's no "nice, young lady", only your computer keyboard, & nothing to stop you answering yes, yes, yes, yes, no if that's what you think.
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Offline Fizzie

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #257 on: June 22, 2018, 09:57:25 AM »
Or how about stop closing power stations until there is a better viable reliable cost effective solution... And no point doing it of majority of other countries are giving it the middle finger.

The problem with that one is that it's the oversea's companies that own the power stations that are saying the $ don't add up anymore as the station is getting too old & need's to much maintenance so we'll shut it down >:(

They couldn't give 2 stuffs about whether Joe Blow Aussie has power or not, or how much it cost's him, they're only interested in the $ >:(

The electricity network should never have been sold off to private enterprise in the first place, & now it should be taken back.
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Offline tryagain

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #258 on: June 22, 2018, 10:20:04 AM »
thats why the whole "highest level " is bullShit. **** thats not even a country town worth of people.

Come back with a poll of 3-4 million (which would be a reasonable amount going off the population clock 2017 if they want some form of credibility.


If they have been asking the same question for 10 years to a similar demographic then the trend is relevant, I think there are issues with the question they are asking, but basically, the trend is saying support for tackling climate change is back up around the same levels it was 10 years ago after a decline.

The only exact way to find out what everyone thinks is too ask everyone, however the sample size they use (assuming a representative sample) should give pretty accurate results, its not just done to a made up number, its a based on statistical probability to a set confidence level, not perfect but still pretty accurate.

I like it when they say the figures were "Seasonally Adjusted..." WTF?


That normally refers to things like retail figures, ie the first quarter for the year might see a big dip compared to the previous quarter that included Christmas, so they adjust the figures to compare  last year to give an accurate representation of what is happening
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Offline Bird

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #259 on: June 22, 2018, 10:32:37 AM »
Quote from: tryagain
its a based on statistical probability to a set confidence level
Confidence level = 0.


Quote
That normally refers to things like retail figures, ie the first quarter for the year might see a big dip compared to the previous quarter that included Christmas, so they adjust the figures to compare  last year to give an accurate representation of what is happening
they use it for unemployment figures. EG: bullShit numbers to make it look better than it really is.
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Offline Poita

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #260 on: June 22, 2018, 01:45:48 PM »
Stop subsidies for renewables. Build a Shit load of coal fired power stations and I'd be happy.
I don't want to be like south Australia and constantly have black outs.

Climate change.... please, the climate has been changing long before we were around. It will continue to change with or without human activity.

That's a very forward way of thinking... don't believe all the tin hat rubbish that the media feeds you.

The blackouts here had nothing to do with renewable energy. It was the feed from the eastern states which had the catastrophic failure and took down the entire grid. Coal, gas or renewable would have made no difference as the whole grid was down. Compounding was the fact we have an archaic grid set-up which couldn't cope with this sort of catastrophe.
Even if the grid was functional, the good old coal stations would have been no use as they take a solid 24hours to wind up. Natural gas is a little better at a few hours. Our new renewable storage takes 200ms to kick in.

Now that we have renewable energy we are a lot less reliant on the eastern feed.

But hey, lets build a heap more filthy coal stations, pump crazy amounts of pollution into the atmosphere because that works okish right now. If all humanity took that approach we'd still be living in caves and grunting. Sure climate change has been around since the dawn of time, but not to the exponential extent our society is contributing.

Offline Poita

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #261 on: June 22, 2018, 01:56:38 PM »
In Dec 2017 I put just over 6kW of solar on my roof and a 5kW inverter (max inverter size is now limited to 5kW due to our archaic grid limitations). My normal bill over the next quarter was around $600-$800. I got a $66 credit. This is combined with sensible power usage, so washing machine and dishwasher etc during the day. My first winter bill is coming up so I will be interested to compare given there was less solar insolation in the last 3 months.

It cost me about $6000 so shouldn't take long to pay off and saves me quite a bit. I did it now to ease the bills as we have school fees starting next year and the 3rd kid due in a couple months, so doubt I would have been able to afford it later.

Offline tryagain

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #262 on: June 22, 2018, 02:24:38 PM »
That's a very forward way of thinking... don't believe all the tin hat rubbish that the media feeds you.

The blackouts here had nothing to do with renewable energy. It was the feed from the eastern states which had the catastrophic failure and took down the entire grid. Coal, gas or renewable would have made no difference as the whole grid was down. Compounding was the fact we have an archaic grid set-up which couldn't cope with this sort of catastrophe.
Even if the grid was functional, the good old coal stations would have been no use as they take a solid 24hours to wind up. Natural gas is a little better at a few hours. Our new renewable storage takes 200ms to kick in.

Now that we have renewable energy we are a lot less reliant on the eastern feed.

But hey, lets build a heap more filthy coal stations, pump crazy amounts of pollution into the atmosphere because that works okish right now. If all humanity took that approach we'd still be living in caves and grunting. Sure climate change has been around since the dawn of time, but not to the exponential extent our society is contributing.

I am not pro new coal power plants and am happy with some level of subsidies for environmentally friendly power over not, but I think you have a little bit of a rosy view of the situation in SA, SA wouldn't have needed electricity from interstate if they had built dispatchable power generation, it's the fact that they build so much wind generation that can be a little erratic in the first place that meant they needed brown coal-fired back up from interstate.

If they had have built coal-fired power plants (not saying they should) there likely wouldn't have been the shortfall, to begin with, so the time to come online isn't really an issue with coal, only if you have erratic generation and whilst the wind and solar that can feed battery storage like they have built in SA are renewable, the lithium batteries that store it certainly aren't.

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #263 on: June 22, 2018, 02:37:21 PM »
Quote from: Poita
But hey, lets build a heap more filthy coal stations, pump crazy amounts of pollution into the atmosphere because that works okish right now.
actually works very well right now, has done for decades.

lets close down all the nasty coal powered stations and have.. umm... ****in nothing to replace it with which is Victoria at the moment and most states.
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Offline Paddler Ed

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #264 on: June 22, 2018, 03:14:10 PM »
Simple solution....


Use less power


We run at under 5KW/h a day (so about a $1.20/day) for 2 of us - in fact, if we buy town water from the supply it's less again (but costs more than pumping from the tank).

Turning things off at the wall saved me 10%, we don't have a big TV, no aircon, and gas hot water.

Our biggest cost on the electricity bill is the supply charge...


It's not hard... if everyone saved that 10%, then it makes a difference...

Offline Poita

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #265 on: June 22, 2018, 03:19:13 PM »
actually works very well right now, has done for decades.

lets close down all the nasty coal powered stations and have.. umm... ****in nothing to replace it with which is Victoria at the moment and most states.

Doesn't mean it's the right thing to do though. There is increasing amount of international pressure and regulation to produce cleaner energy. At least give SA credit that they are one of the few states to even attempt to do something about it rather than just hope some miracle solution pops up to solve the worlds problems. We led the way in recycling, paper bag reduction and now renewables. It has taken years but a lot of other states are slowly implementing the same things. Are they perfect solutions? No, not by a long shot, but they are a step forward and if we listened to all the doom and gloomers, nothing would ever be done.

Offline JusyApples

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #266 on: June 22, 2018, 07:23:20 PM »
It wouldn't make a difference what SA are doing. Seriously there are hundreds of coal fired power stations being built around the world as we speak. Why are SA relying on eastern states? Technology changes, making coal power much cleaner as well as nuclear. We have so much uranium and coal which we send overseas for others to use. Why not use it ourselves.

You can rely on wind and solar for base load power.

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Offline Mitch92

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #267 on: June 22, 2018, 08:15:39 PM »

The blackouts here had nothing to do with renewable energy. It was the feed from the eastern states which had the catastrophic failure and took down the entire grid. Coal, gas or renewable would have made no difference as the whole grid was down. Compounding was the fact we have an archaic grid set-up which couldn't cope with this sort of catastrophe.
Even if the grid was functional, the good old coal stations would have been no use as they take a solid 24hours to wind up. Natural gas is a little better at a few hours. Our new renewable storage takes 200ms to kick in.

Now that we have renewable energy we are a lot less reliant on the eastern feed.


You are so far wrong in your statements.

The last chance SA had at not going black was the interconnector from VIC. All of the renewables, gas and coal had already begun tripping off. The only reason the interconnector trippes was due to overload. The load draw from VIC into SA exceeded the capacity to the point it tripped open for it's own protection.

Synchronous generation is the most stable in these situations. Again the problem is that SA didn't have most of it running. Once wind etc started to fail there is more load placed onto what was running. They all have protection limits and they were reached, when reached they trip to stop other bigger issues.

Offline Hewy54

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #268 on: June 22, 2018, 08:39:04 PM »
I wish I was sure of my facts, but much of the reference to SA I believe is incorrect.
The power outages a couple of years ago were caused by storm damage.
We live just north of Adelaide and have nor had a power outage for ages.
I believe that the recent changes to our power production and storage now mean that we export to the eastern states.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 08:49:52 PM by Hewy54 »

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Offline Mitch92

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #269 on: June 22, 2018, 08:42:12 PM »
The storm damage certainly did the most damage....hard to send power down lines that have fallen over etc.

However the fact remains that had there been more synchronous generation from coal power etc that the whole state would not have gone black.

Offline Paddler Ed

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #270 on: June 22, 2018, 09:13:53 PM »
I'd recommend having a look at this... and out of the 90 places that are listed, look at where the Australian states rank...

https://www.electricitymap.org/?page=map&solar=false&remote=true&wind=false

Just had a look at places in a bit more detail... The UK recorded more Solar generation in the last 24hrs than NSW did... that's a worry...

Offline tryagain

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #271 on: June 23, 2018, 04:33:33 AM »
I'd recommend having a look at this... and out of the 90 places that are listed, look at where the Australian states rank...

https://www.electricitymap.org/?page=map&solar=false&remote=true&wind=false

Just had a look at places in a bit more detail... The UK recorded more Solar generation in the last 24hrs than NSW did... that's a worry...

I'd be pretty sure those figures wouldn't include rooftop PV, a quick look at some figures show the UK with 12.8GW of solar so about 0.2W per capita and Australia with 7.8GW so about 0.33W per capita, not sure about the UK but Australia's capacity is expected to almost double in 12months.

I think we look ok in comparison.

Offline Rumpig

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #272 on: June 23, 2018, 07:11:59 AM »
actually works very well right now, has done for decades.

lets close down all the nasty coal powered stations and have.. umm... ****in nothing to replace it with which is Victoria at the moment and most states.
reminds me of a t shirt my mate who is a mining engineer, had when he was at uni....the front read in big letters “BAN MINING”...the back read “Let the bastards freeze in the dark”.
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Offline GeoffA

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #273 on: June 23, 2018, 07:16:37 AM »
We are destroying our energy supply network for no gain, but at a huge expense to personal and corporate bottom lines.
If Aus were to cut it's emissions to zero, the effect on global warming would be as good as nil.
It's all just virtue signalling.....
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Offline duggie

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Re: Power and gas is to expensive.
« Reply #274 on: June 23, 2018, 08:07:55 AM »
reminds me of a t shirt my mate who is a mining engineer, had when he was at uni....the front read in big letters “BAN MINING”...the back read “Let the bastards freeze in the dark”.


Yep , I still got the stickers .  ;D
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