MySwag.org The Off-road Camper Trailer Forum
General => Previous Member Trips => Trips, Tracks, Touring and Reports => 2012 Cape York Members Trip => Topic started by: McGirr on June 03, 2012, 08:43:49 PM
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Watching some crossings on YouTube I just shake my head such stupidity. They don't walk it, the support peopl are so far away they have to run in to try and help and some have the support vehicle with the attached snatch strap so the person has to work out how to hook up the vehicle in the water ???
Nolans Creek has a soft sandy bottom and slightly flowing water.
Make sure your latches on your camper are tight, spray the electrics in the motor, make sure the are no electrical items or other gear sitting on the floor in the car, shut your vents in the car and use a car bra or tarp.
Always wait if someone has already crossed as they have stirred up the sand and this will make it harder for the next car. Let the flowing water clear and the sand to move and fill up the ruts caused by the last vehicle.
Depending on the vehicle you may get away driving straight ahead when crossing. Yogi did last year but his vehicle is lifted and can do it easy.
The best way is to do a semi cicle in the creek. When entering the water veer left on the bank and then drive into the deeper part before turning right and coming out of the creek. There is a lip as you exit and this can bring vehicles to a halt.
Make sure your snatch strap is attached to the vehicle crossing and wrapped and sitting on your drivers side mirror. Have someone in the water ready to grab the snatch strap and pass it to someone in shallower water so they can attach it to the support vehicle. Don't have your snatch strap wrapped around your bull bar it takes longer to un coil. Every second counts.
Remember let the water clear and the sand settle before attempting other wise your driving in unsettled sand especially if someone has been stuck and been churning up the sand.
Mark
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Mark,
I will be watching with great interest your trip this year. We will be heading up there mid July and anticipate doing the OTT around the end of July. On our last trip to the Cape in 2009, we got through Nolans OK, but only just !! In hindsight I think I should have lowered tyre pressures to say 20psi or less to assist with the sandy bottom of Nolans. From memory I was running at about 28-30psi - my usual dirt road pressures. What pressures do you tackle Nolans at and if lowered, have you found it helped much? This is one crossing that I am very, very wary of, having experienced its soft bottom. I now have a far more expensive vehicle (200 series LC) again will be towing my Tambo camper. As much as it is a very capable vehicle, I have no desire to drown it and if necessary will backtrack to bypass it!! My insurance company (RACV) informs me that any electrical or mechanical damage (such as drowning a computer or hydraulicking a diesel motor) is not covered by my comp insurance which I find somewhat disconcerting.
Good luck to all with your trip - I eagerly await some trip reports and videos with bated breath !!!
Cheers,
Dave
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good tips thanks mark
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Dave drop tyre pressure to 20 psi and if you have a vehicle in the group with out a camper get them across first.
Yes I crossed in 2009 and it was ok. I did churn up the sandy bottom.
Mark
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I ran 16 & 20 psi on the MTZ's last year. We took a different way to Mark. We came in on the right as the bottom was less sandy and some tree roots that helped as well. We did swing right then strait then out.
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb36/Steveandviv/NolansBrook100mod-1.jpg)
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb36/Steveandviv/NolansBrook103mod.jpg)
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb36/Steveandviv/NolansBrook109mod-1.jpg)
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Steve what no camper ??? ;D
Mark
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I ran 12psi for the crossing with trailer. I have never rolled a bead on day trips and they far exceed anything on the Tele track.
Mine are Steel rims but I have seen cheep steel rims that roll beads all the time.
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Steve what no camper ??? ;D
Mark
No Frostd and I stayed at Sams creek for 3 nights and then did day trips. There were 4 others that we caught up with that did it with campers. Anyway, we did Frenchmans and that was more than enough fun for one trip ;D
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No Frostd and I stayed at Sams creek for 3 nights and then did day trips. There were 4 others that we caught up with that did it with campers. Anyway, we did Frenchmans and that was more than enough fun for one trip ;D
Yes people have no idea how tough theses crossing can be until you do them and they change every year.
That's why I love doing the Cape :cup:
Mark
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I may have to around Nolan's now that I've got the photographer with me.
Just to may sure he gets all the action of others and not me.
Bert
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Oh no you don't. Nolans is shallow enough for him to walk across.
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Mark,
I will be watching with great interest your trip this year. We will be heading up there mid July and anticipate doing the OTT around the end of July. On our last trip to the Cape in 2009, we got through Nolans OK, but only just !! In hindsight I think I should have lowered tyre pressures to say 20psi or less to assist with the sandy bottom of Nolans. From memory I was running at about 28-30psi - my usual dirt road pressures. What pressures do you tackle Nolans at and if lowered, have you found it helped much? This is one crossing that I am very, very wary of, having experienced its soft bottom. I now have a far more expensive vehicle (200 series LC) again will be towing my Tambo camper. As much as it is a very capable vehicle, I have no desire to drown it and if necessary will backtrack to bypass it!! My insurance company (RACV) informs me that any electrical or mechanical damage (such as drowning a computer or hydraulicking a diesel motor) is not covered by my comp insurance which I find somewhat disconcerting.
Good luck to all with your trip - I eagerly await some trip reports and videos with bated breath !!!
Cheers,
Dave
Dave, the wife and I will be leaving Brisbane on 27 July 2012 and making a b line for cairns before slowing right down and tackling some of the tuffer tracks. Should you be held up a little we may be up there around the same time. Feel free to shoot me a PM. We will be driving a 2005 Jeep TJ with a 3" lift and locked. Will be towing a very lightweight trailer (375kg ATM). We will be by ourselves for the trip but would be more then happy to meet up at times. If Nolans is fairly deep we will have the ability to pull the trailer over after we have crossed.
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Thanks JeepTJ for that and to others for the info/advice. PM sent
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Dave, the wife and I will be leaving Brisbane on 27 July 2012 and making a b line for cairns before slowing right down and tackling some of the tuffer tracks. Should you be held up a little we may be up there around the same time. Feel free to shoot me a PM. We will be driving a 2005 Jeep TJ with a 3" lift and locked. Will be towing a very lightweight trailer (375kg ATM). We will be by ourselves for the trip but would be more then happy to meet up at times. If Nolans is fairly deep we will have the ability to pull the trailer over after we have crossed.
how are you going to get your trailer over nolans?
troy
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how are you going to get your trailer over nolans?
troy
That's what I was thinking
Mark
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how are you going to get your trailer over nolans?
troy
Not just Nolan's but serious obsticles that could mean having to turn around. I am considering two options as opposed to leaving the trailer hitched. I am hopeing to have things sorted before we go in 7 weeks but I am attending to reno's as well. As to how we will drag it across we will post some photos in our build thread if we have to unhitch it at any time. Lets just say option one will invole the trailer being able to mostly float :cup: . Obvioulsy if the current is fairly slow (Nolan's) we would leave it hitched.
Option two will involve the spare being used as a wheel in front of the hitch (a hub attached to a piece of 40x40x4 shs bolted to the underneath of where the hitch sits).
Thinking a little too out of the box for most and I accept that. Most obsticles become so much harder at usually only one particular point. By allowing the trailer to clear the obsticle once the vehicle has already cleared the obsticle will give us a huge advantage (like a vehicle snatching another vehicle up an obsticle). I don't intend to rely on these as options but would like it available if need be. Yeah I could get a winch, and a heavy bull bar, and a second battery (for the winch), and a fridge(because a second battery is now there), and some solar panels (because of the fridge) and heavy skid plates (thanks to all the weight) etc but then the Jeep would become a tourer and not something that suits us. We will be taking a set of maxtrax.
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What sort of tyre pressures are people running on the development road?
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Not just Nolan's but serious obsticles that could mean having to turn around. I am considering two options as opposed to leaving the trailer hitched. I am hopeing to have things sorted before we go in 7 weeks but I am attending to reno's as well. As to how we will drag it across we will post some photos in our build thread if we have to unhitch it at any time. Lets just say option one will invole the trailer being able to mostly float :cup: . Obvioulsy if the current is fairly slow (Nolan's) we would leave it hitched.
Option two will involve the spare being used as a wheel in front of the hitch (a hub attached to a piece of 40x40x4 shs bolted to the underneath of where the hitch sits).
Thinking a little too out of the box for most and I accept that. Most obsticles become so much harder at usually only one particular point. By allowing the trailer to clear the obsticle once the vehicle has already cleared the obsticle will give us a huge advantage (like a vehicle snatching another vehicle up an obsticle). I don't intend to rely on these as options but would like it available if need be. Yeah I could get a winch, and a heavy bull bar, and a second battery (for the winch), and a fridge(because a second battery is now there), and some solar panels (because of the fridge) and heavy skid plates (thanks to all the weight) etc but then the Jeep would become a tourer and not something that suits us. We will be taking a set of maxtrax.
For Nolan's I would recommend that you stop there and wait for someone else to come along (shouldn't be too long at this time of year) and ask them nicely if they would pull you out if you get stuck.
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What sort of tyre pressures are people running on the development road?
We run 28 psi on the development rd , 25 on the Otl if needed and maybe 20 crossing Nolan's
Mark
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Same as Mark...Give or take.
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What sort of tyre pressures are people running on the development road?
That will depend on the weight of car, tyre construction and the speed you want to travel at. One wont suit all.
We found on the development road that we were cruising at 80-90kmh, therfore we could run less pressure to take some of the bumps out. Yep, we could have sat on 100kmh but there was no need , all it would have done would be put stress on trailer and car.
Pretty sure we were down to around 22psi. Such a nicer ride.
Lower presure and speed = higher tyre temps. Check em if you run them low.
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Thanks guys. We are all packed and ready to leave in the morning. We are in no hurry so lower pressures and less speed will be the go to keep it comfortable.
;D
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Here's one way to cross Nolan's Brook :-O
(You may want to turn the sound down a bit if kids are around)
Nolan's Brook, OTL, Cape York, June 2012 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zialyZToPc#)
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We did that last year and looks like we will do the same this year.
Mark
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Here's one way to cross Nolan's Brook :-O
(You may want to turn the sound down a bit if kids are around)
Nolan's Brook, OTL, Cape York, June 2012 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zialyZToPc#)
Yes now where talking, great way to wash the truck, can someone tow me like that.
Regards, Chris.
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RIP Prado in Nolans
http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread.php?24690-Cape-York-or-bust-May-2012/page7 (http://www.pradopoint.com/showthread.php?24690-Cape-York-or-bust-May-2012/page7)
(http://s13.postimage.org/acx6l07z9/DSCN2367.jpg)
(http://s13.postimage.org/7cgsnudlx/DSCN2363.jpg)
(http://s14.postimage.org/dkb0q8h8f/DSCN2366.jpg)
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We reached Nolans Brook and ran into a rowdy bunch of Myswaggers looking for a goat? Any luck?
Our guys walked the crossing and had a chat to Symon, and safely all made it across relatively unscathed. Our air con and UHF died in the Defender, but we've since dried out the UHF, and several days later our friend's D4 starter motor died. Unsure yet if that's related to Nolan's or not. We did go through some deep water up on the Punsand Bay shortcut to the Tip, but it could also just be a Land Rover thing :-(
Logans Creek before Nolans was actually deeper, and our other mates Challenger flooded as it kept knocking back into 2wd and got stuck.
Great running into you guys at Nolans. Sorry we didn't provide any entertainment.
Cheers
Karen
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Dive, dive, dive...........
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More of captain Mauri at work!
(http://img.tapatalk.com/95879159-b918-fbe2.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/95879159-b93e-b0f7.jpg)
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i suppose the obvious question is, did he make it thru OK
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i suppose the obvious question is, did he make it thru OK
Just a walk in the park for Captain Mauri and his trusty Defender.......
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I think the whole trip was a walk in the park for Captain Mauri, :cup: it makes you think if he drove across Bass Strait as well. ;D
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More of captain Mauri at work!
(http://img.tapatalk.com/95879159-b918-fbe2.jpg)
(http://img.tapatalk.com/95879159-b93e-b0f7.jpg)
Might look good in the photo but that car was about 10mm away from the biggest gut full of water through the snorkle into the engine.
Looks good and hardcore but In reality it is quite unnesssasary to pull cars through at that speed. I'd be stuffed if I'd let anyone pull me through water like that.. Have a good look on you tube there are plenty of good examples of how to do an assited water crossing.
Will make a great magazine cover though ;D ;D ;D ;D
Jet ;D ;D
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For those that haven't rear the thread posted by D4D.
Prado 150 at Nolans Brook - Drowned (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dYz0Jy3Kgo#ws)
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Breaks your heart to see this happen to a new vehicle but its all part of it I guess...
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Thats a real shame ...just like all the cars drowned there this year, but everyone is saying it's impassable and it's to deep etc.
But really it's only catching out the people who have no plan , no idea or are to cocky.
that car lost momentum at the 0.15sec mark the strap was connected at the 1.18sec mark .that is far to long to have a strap connected. from time of lost momentum in water to recovery should be a max of .20sec in total.
Every water crossing recovery plan should be based on this .20sec timeframe. I saw people get stuck and start to spool winches out ??? far to long.
having the recovery team filming ??? far to long
Going looking for a spare strap in the event of failure ??? takes to long.
No car should ever spend longer than .20sec in the water awaiting recovery. if you do not have the equipment in position or know how to effect this then do not attempt the crossing.
very sad for all those people including this one, that have lost a car this year,
Jet ;D ;D
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I take it you mean 20 seconds and not point 2 of a second. Otherwise you are very quick at attaching straps. But I agree, you need a bridle already attached and we now use a clevis hook to snap on to the bridle. No loosing the D shackle bolt at the worst possible moment,
Regards
Alan
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Goes to show having all the "fruit" means nothing.
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Being very green when it comes to water crossings, but also very keen, I'd love to see some video footage of how it's done correctly. Particularly the recovery part.
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I'm sorry hahahahahahahaha >:D
No it isnt funny for the people who own the vehicle :-[
Sorry wrong way!!
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I take it you mean 20 seconds and not point 2 of a second. Otherwise you are very quick at attaching straps. But I agree, you need a bridle already attached and we now use a clevis hook to snap on to the bridle. No loosing the D shackle bolt at the worst possible moment,
Regards
Alan
Yes mate I did mean 20 seconds, just a personal opinion I would not ever use a d shackle or anything else solid like a hook to connect the recovery strap to the equalizer strap. The equal strap is designed to be feed through the recovery strap eye. Using a shackle or hook is very unsafe as if either strap breaks the shackle or hook are a missile looking for either a head to land in or will recoil straight through your radiator .It Also frays the heck out of the equal strap. ;D :D
Jet :cheers:
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Hey JET,
You seem to know your stuff, so how would I get my flock of goats through Nolans if they were to get stuck????
Croissant!!!!
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Everyone will have opinions regarding water crossings. I was happy with the way the recovery team did their job at Nolan's on the Cape trip.
Mark
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Thanks Mark.........................Alan Jones once said that criticism is only as valid as those that give it.........................smart man that !
I feel very sure that none of the forementioned issues will ever be a problem again. It's good to know that there is a wealth of knowledge out there to help travelers arrive safe and sound at their destinations.
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I agree with Jetcrew.
Why was the the strap not connected to the Prado?
From the moment the car entered the water its clear it would struggle big time.
Did it hydrolic?
I can only guess that the owner/driver hasn't done much of that sort of thing before to allow it to happen. I shudder to think that an owner could be under the impression of being looked after and have that happen. Im sorry if that sounds harsh as the people helping only have best intentions but really that was very amature.
In the end mistakes happen, no one was hurt, its just an insured car..
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Not critisising anyone but there are many eggspirts after the fact.....20/20 hindsight is a great thing.....Just a thought.......
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Not critisising anyone but there are many eggspirts after the fact.....20/20 hindsight is a great thing.....Just a thought.......
Being prepared is a great thing too.
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I agree with Jetcrew.
Why was the the strap not connected to the Prado?
From the moment the car entered the water its clear it would struggle big time.
Did it hydrolic?
I can only guess that the owner/driver hasn't done much of that sort of thing before to allow it to happen. I shudder to think that an owner could be under the impression of being looked after and have that happen. Im sorry if that sounds harsh as the people helping only have best intentions but really that was very amature.
In the end mistakes happen, no one was hurt, its just an insured car..
I was under the impression that this was a bunch of people going to the cape and having a bit of fun on the way , not a full paid for tag-a-long safari , complete with guarantee's of recovery s / camp-sites / toilets .
I always find it funny when people criticize after the fact .... seems to becoming the Australian way unfortunately 8(
Actually ... not funny ... piss-poor would be the better word for it !
Its also funny that there is so many ' experts ' sitting on the sideline
Cheers
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Being prepared is a great thing too.
Yes, but on the day sometimes things do get overlooked. It is one thing to be looking at footage of things going wrong, it is another to be actually there making the decision as to what the plan is. There may have been a perfectly good reason why the prado owner took the approach they did, I wasn't there, so how would I know.
The strange thing is people are human, and you could be the most experienced person in the world and still make mistakes.
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I not trying to start a brew ha ha .
I'm all for people having a go but if they are that bad at it, should they really be trying a crossing with a reputation of claiming cars daily?
What is the point where they are having an adventure on the edge of their ability and being dangerous? (not saying they were)
Like I said no one got hurt and its just a car and belongings. But for most the investment in the trip, car, time,equipment etc is a litlle more than a a few mates flogging paddock basher.
At what point will the track be shut due to overuse ,rubbish being nailed to trees as a laugh( gunshot), people taking 'chicken tracks', cutting new tracks/lines because they cannot drive the trail or have a trailer or a car that not up to it. If people did what this years Myswag crew did and actually did a bit of track building over the years , Gunshot would not be the disgrace it is. If there was a track in NSW that was that much of a mess it would have been gated long ago.
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Never done the tele track before. but I was so happy that we had someone who would back us up. This includes the recovery team who I think did their best in the conditions but also all of the other people who were not the recovery team. I felt that everyone who did the trip would have help us out within a blink of an eye and we would have done the same thing. We knew that we were not on a tag a long trip but with a group of people who like us, love 4 wheel driving and would help as we would. I would not hesitate to travel with any of the people on the cape trip as they were reliable and helpful
cheers
Jayne and Peter (Hen)
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Thats a real shame ...just like all the cars drowned there this year, but everyone is saying it's impassable and it's to deep etc.
But really it's only catching out the people who have no plan , no idea or are to cocky.
that car lost momentum at the 0.15sec mark the strap was connected at the 1.18sec mark .that is far to long to have a strap connected. from time of lost momentum in water to recovery should be a max of .20sec in total.
Every water crossing recovery plan should be based on this .20sec timeframe. I saw people get stuck and start to spool winches out ??? far to long.
having the recovery team filming ??? far to long
Going looking for a spare strap in the event of failure ??? takes to long.
No car should ever spend longer than .20sec in the water awaiting recovery. if you do not have the equipment in position or know how to effect this then do not attempt the crossing.
very sad for all those people including this one, that have lost a car this year,
Jet ;D ;D
100% agree with all of this, I think their biggest mistake was assuming the Prado would do it easy because it had done everything else before it easy, basically they were not prepared for the worst.
Rule number one, treat every crossing as if your going to have a problem.
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Here's our guys crossing Nolans.
One or two of you Myswaggers having a starring role as well ::)
Nolans Brook Cape York 2012.mov (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tku2pInU-Yc#ws)
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Do land rover doors not seal to well?????
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Not just the doors ::)
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Do land rover doors not seal to well?????
was thinking the same thing myself ??? ???
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Their engines leak so why not the doors :)
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Captain Mauri says no leaks in his door
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My good mate just killed his D40 navara in Nolan's about 2 weeks ago. He drove in and the back started floating. By the time he got traction again the water had filled up inside and fried all the electrics. End of holiday's right there.
Cheers
Wes
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One or two of you Myswaggers having a starring role as well
And what a fine looking fella he is to....
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a mate has just been up the Cape (currently driving back to Brisbane right now from Cooktown) and he got stuck in Nolans on the run North and had water in the fourby, just had to dry the vehicle out no real damage done..... but on the run South he accidentally drove Nolans in 2wd as he'd forgotten to lock his hubs in. he has made mention that he probably didn't deflate his tyres enough before crossing when heading North, the fact he drove South in 2wd makes me think he running a much lower pressure the 2nd time around (aswell as the obvious ground terrain differance heading in a different direction).
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I did it but I took up an offer to have the strap already attached and ready to go(just incase it went pair shaped) http://s1017.photobucket.com/albums/af294/TroyAE/?action=view¤t=DSCN0409.mp4 (http://s1017.photobucket.com/albums/af294/TroyAE/?action=view¤t=DSCN0409.mp4)
troy
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Hey myswaggers,
watching the videos about cape york got me wondering...
How does everyonen with a caravan or jayco style camper waterproof the door?
I have an old Viscount and the door doesnt look at all water tight and has air vents built into the door.
i thought before i go and hack up some rubber to line the door i'd ask the Q.
plus Surely cape york travellers have already crossed this bridge well and truely.
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This is us a few weeks ago, Only car out of eight to not get stuck.
Hope this vid works :-[
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/DG1818/videos/th_011.jpg)][URL=http://s37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/DG1818/videos/?action=view¤t=011.mp4](http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/DG1818/videos/th_011.jpg) (http://[URL=http://s37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/DG1818/videos/?action=view¤t=011.mp4)[/url]
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Try this http://s37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/DG1818/videos/?action=view¤t=011.mp4 (http://s37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/DG1818/videos/?action=view¤t=011.mp4)
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Thanks for that,
Buggered if I could get it to work.
Cheers Dave
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A mate of mine went through Nolans during the week.
4.2 Gu patrol pretty well loaded up, MTZ Mickey Thompsons down to 11psi, bra, winch rope out, strap connected, drove straight through.
He had walked it for a fair while and went ,from the south, though the main way to the left hugging the bank then turn towards the exit but still angled to the right of the exit. So a fair zig zag. He said he could feel it start to shudder a bit but just kept the same power on and popped out no worries.
He has done nothing like this sort of crossing before the tele and with some common sense ate it up ;D
He had heard that only 1 in 8 were driving it, 22 cars on the dock at Seisia ,all written off ready to be shipped including
a new 200 series drowned at nolans, Hilux ute rolled at Ducie creek.
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Hey myswaggers,
watching the videos about cape york got me wondering...
How does everyonen with a caravan or jayco style camper waterproof the door?
I have an old Viscount and the door doesnt look at all water tight and has air vents built into the door.
i thought before i go and hack up some rubber to line the door i'd ask the Q.
plus Surely cape york travellers have already crossed this bridge well and truely.
There is some youtube footage of a guy taking an old Jayco up the OTL. The problem with campers of that style is the width, the track does get very narrow in places, back in 2011 we were quite entertained by a guy trying to get his Jayco across Canal Creek and having it wedged between the banks halfway up the exit.
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We went through Nolans on 27th August, 2x 100 series IFS TD cruisers with 2" lift. did it easy, no wheel spin, no dramas....but we made sure we went first....each successive car after us made the crossing harder for the next. There were a couple of cars waiting to go when we arrived but no one wanted to go first so we said we would do it and stay over the other side to help the next one through if needed. We used my water blind and strapped up before going (another of our group had gone the long way around to watch us go through from the northern side). I reckon the crossing before Nolans is deeper and longer, yet it seems to have no name or reputation.
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And just to annoy Mark... It's Nolans Brook.
Yea I know. It's a quiet night in my brain. Nothing better to do Mark.Too many XXXX Golds. Ha Ha
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I reckon the crossing before Nolans is deeper and longer, yet it seems to have no name or reputation.
It is commonly known as Lagoon Creek, or to some Logan's Creek. I did look it up on Google maps one day and it is actually a gully that drains into Bridge Creek further down from Nolan's Brook (which is actually Bridge Creek according to HEMA maps).
While it is deep the bottom is quite hard so most people have no issues crossing it, I'm guessing that is why it doesn't get talked about as much as Nolan's.
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And just to annoy Mark... It's Nolans Brook.
Yea I know. It's a quiet night in my brain. Nothing better to do Mark.Too many XXXX Golds. Ha Ha
Steve you know when you stop taking those pills what happens!! :D
I realized a while ago and no one picked it up.
Mark
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It is commonly known as Lagoon Creek, or to some Logan's Creek. I did look it up on Google maps one day and it is actually a gully that drains into Bridge Creek further down from Nolan's Brook (which is actually Bridge Creek according to HEMA maps).
While it is deep the bottom is quite hard so most people have no issues crossing it, I'm guessing that is why it doesn't get talked about as much as Nolan's.
Most people but not all lol
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You cannot help bad luck Paulp.
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Managed to upload a vid of our crossing.
Nolans Brook August 2012 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=886QhmpfOrE#ws)