Remote controlled flying things-Quads, Hex, Octo or anything

[CBRK]

Well it seems that my EMAX BLHeli's are sitting waiting at the bootloader when connected to the pixhawk, so until I get that worked out I'm going to have to use other ESC's.

Since my blue series 30A ESC's wont arrive until Tuesday, I decided that I would hook up my 18A (22A burst) Turnigy Plush ESC's.  This means that I'll only be able to push the motors to about 85% to keep them below 22A and preferably below 70% to keep them under 18A (should be plenty of thrust).  This means that once the rain goes away on Sunday I should be able to take the tri for a spin.  I've done a bit of a slap it together when it comes to the wiring, I will do it all properly when i get my new tricopter frame (I'll order it after the weekend).

Tonight I plan to do the thrust tests (I should be able to do this on the BLHeli ESC), and reconfigure the gimbal (and add the bluetooth module).  This means that I'll be able do a dry run tomorrow and then be ready to go up to the park on Sunday.

Will be nice after Tuesday I'll be able to hit 100% throttle to see what they can really do on the Tri itself.

HK stuffed up on my previous order, it seems the 22mm clamps they sent are the exact opposite of which ones I was after.  I've now opened a ticket and I'm hoping they can resend the right ones shortly.

Chris

[Marschy]

HK stuffed up on my previous order, it seems the 22mm clamps they sent are the exact opposite of which ones I was after.  I've now opened a ticket and I'm hoping they can resend the right ones shortly.

Hello Chris,

Is this the first RMA you have opened with HK?

I'm not happy with their return policy, you have to pay for return postage if you don't accept the incorrect item, and then hope to hell that they send the correct item. Or alternatively accept the incorrect item and pay for the correct item to be sent again and still hope to hell they send the correct item. The second scenario happened to me, and they resent the incorrect item again, which they again asked me to return at my expense. I just gave up. Thoroughly pissed off after spending over $1000 with them.

I much prefer Aliexpress.

Cheers, Mark

[CBRK]

Hello Chris,

Is this the first RMA you have opened with HK?

I'm not happy with their return policy, you have to pay for return postage if you don't accept the incorrect item, and then hope to hell that they send the correct item. Or alternatively accept the incorrect item and pay for the correct item to be sent again and still hope to hell they send the correct item. The second scenario happened to me, and they resent the incorrect item again, which they again asked me to return at my expense. I just gave up. Thoroughly pissed off after spending over $1000 with them.

I much prefer Aliexpress.

Cheers, Mark

Hi Mark,

Nope, I've had one before and it was a similar experience to yours, although mine was a defective KK2 board.  I just gave up in the end, I know it's funny we spend $1,000's of and they haven't made it simple in the past.

Having said that they have recently changed their return policy when this happens, so I just need to upload the photos and it says they are unlikely to require me to send it back.  Not sure what that means (a credit or them posting out the right ones).  This is the draw back of buying from the international warehouse.....  Consumers are not as well protected.

Will let you know if it has changed, if not then I will be moving more and more of purchases away from HK, I've slowly started this as HK used to have postage speed on it's side, now it's slowed down my loyalty is being tested by better deals out there.  I also use aliexpress and I have had 2 items stuffed up by vendors.  Both where sorted by taking a pic and then they sent the replacement parts out, very quick simple and easy.  Just took the postage time again :-(  I'd just have to adjust how I buy stuff, I'll need more lead time but I dont see that as a bad thing, I've got enough stuff now to get by for most things, the rest is just nice to have.

Didn't get thrust tests done last night due to spending time on working out why the Bluetooth module is causing erratic behavior of the gimbal (only happens when I have an active connection).  I can see I'm going to like the bluetooh module on the gimbal.  I will try to move it further away and then retest, then I'll get to the thrust tests.

I've only got to remount the gimbal mount back onto the tri and I'm ready for a test flight tomorrow (if this rain ever lets up, I'm the duty officer this weekend for my area so while it's raining I cant get too much done, people keep calling, please rain stop).

Regards,

Chris

[CBRK]

Hi Mark,

I've done a quick thrust test on the new motors.

I used the Turnigy Plush 18A (22A burst) ESC's for the test, will do another test tomorrow as the ESC got quite warm.

Results so far (4s 3000mah battery @ 75% charge - EMAX 3515 with 14x4.7):
11A - 1.3Kg
19A - 1.9Kg (note this was at 75% throttle due to ESC limitations)

So I figure I'll be hovering at around 12-14A total across the 3 motors.  I forgot to record the lower A values but I recall hitting 450g almost straight off the bat with barely any throttle applied (so it might be better), it seems to be very efficient at low A's.  Damn these props move some air, holy crap, I blew stuff over all over the room and stuff that's not just in the direct path behind  - that I've done plenty of times, it was impressive.  Note that the 11in props never moved these objects at all.  Scared my dog a bit.  I couldn't hear the motor noise at all, the props made so much noise.

I'll double check these off the BLHeli ESC if the rain returns, just that they are even better than what the emax website has.  Latest forecast is that there might be showers tomorrow, I'll see what it looks like when I get up.  I'll see if I have time to test out the 12 inch CF props too, will be interesting.

All that's left to do is to add the props to the Tri, charge the new batteries and adjust the mid throttle settings on the pixhawk and I'm good to go :-).

I reckon that with the 30A ESC's that I can hit 2.1 if not 2.2Kg off the 14x4.7's.

If I'm right with my figures I should get the following flight times:
4s 3000 - 11 mins with 20% safety
4s 4000 - 15 mins with 20% safety
4s 5800 - 23 mins with 20% safety

Hopefully I can test those out tomorrow as I reckon they are conservative.

My new frame is almost designed, just need the HK power module to confirm the hole layout and distances and I'm good to order.

Chris

[Marschy]

I'll double check these off the BLHeli ESC if the rain returns, just that they are even better than what the emax website has.  Latest forecast is that there might be showers tomorrow, I'll see what it looks like when I get up.  I'll see if I have time to test out the 12 inch CF props too, will be interesting.

It's handy to know your results. When I did some testing with the 2206 Emax motors, the thrust results where just under the results published on their website when I was only using plastic props and their results used carbon fibre props.

The motors are pretty quiet for their size. I reckon the bearings must be of reasonable quality. You can probably see why my faith in Hobbyking motors is diminishing.

[CBRK]

It's handy to know your results. When I did some testing with the 2206 Emax motors, the thrust results where just under the results published on their website when I was only using plastic props and their results used carbon fibre props.

The motors are pretty quiet for their size. I reckon the bearings must be of reasonable quality. You can probably see why my faith in Hobbyking motors is diminishing.

It's handy to know your results. When I did some testing with the 2206 Emax motors, the thrust results where just under the results published on their website when I was only using plastic props and their results used carbon fibre props.

The motors are pretty quiet for their size. I reckon the bearings must be of reasonable quality. You can probably see why my faith in Hobbyking motors is diminishing.

I was expecting less than published results, I should get a chance to retry them on the emax blheli this afternoon.  Nice to get better than expected results.

I know those bearing must be bloody good, I didnt hear a single noise from the motors, it was all prop noise.  I found the HK multistar elites to be good, but I agree after these I doubt I could go back to the HK motors.

My next set of high quality motors are likely to be some tiger motors (t motors) or the AVroto's, I can see that I dont want to skimp on the motors anymore.

I took it for a spin just now and well, I stopped as I obviously have done something wrong....  I had the rear propeller fly off, it actually flew and continued to rotate down (nicely balanced, as it stayed horizontal until it hit the ground.  Bad news is that means that for the prop nut to fly off like that I've not checked everything properly.  I decided to not put the teflon tape on for the first flight, silly me.  Good news is that it was still on the ground when it came off, so no damage other than my pride.

Lost one prop nut out of it, I searched and searched but couldn't find it.  It could have gone anywhere.

On a plus it was quiet, like alot less than the tri has ever been, these motors rock, I had barely bumped the throttle past 35% and she was showing signs of lifting.  I think this thing will be interesting to bring down.....

I think the plan will be to do what I normally do, I'll do a tethered test in the backyard tomorrow.  That way I know I've got all my ducks in a row.  It must have been me in a rush to get down to the park that caused it.

Chris

 

[Mandrake]

Nice bloke on Facebook Phantom page just sold me the following for $300 !!
A Phantom 1 with OSD , Zenmuse 2D , DJI transmitter .
6 x 2200 mah DJI batteries
6 x 2800 mah Zippy batteries
2 x 2200 mah Gens Ace ...

Apparently I need a GoPro to fit the Zenmuse to get FPV .. My cameras won't do that ...

I figured the batteries alone would be worth the $300 so the Phantom is a bonus ... LOL ..

Makes up for the one that flew away last year ...

Happy happy happy ...

[CBRK]

Took the tri for a spin today down at the oval, mixed results.  I switched over to the T-Style CF props (12x5.5) and they appear pretty good.  I had one time where I dug the prop into the earth, it was good, just wipe it off and all was good.  I can say I'm very happy with them, now I have motors that can use them I will be ordering more of these  .  I can say though that I'm sure if it wasnt grass it would have ended differently.

Bad news is that I have so much power that when I hit more than 40% throttle it is able to pull my tail mechanism upright, so that tells me the servo is unable to counteract the forces.  I stupidly used a smaller but in theory (had more torque) servo, guess that wasn't a good idea.  Good news is I thought this might be the case and in my order from HK which is held up due to the long weekend (should be here tomorrow) has a bigger tail servo.  Hopefully it will be big enough, I fear with the amount of force this thing is throwing out I may need even bigger!

I do have some older analogue servos that will be strong enough but they are attached to my 4 star 40 plane which I'd use but since I have a digital replacement on the way I figure whats another day.

I'm thinking of changing my tail mechanism, David's direct drive design is good but I may need to go for an indirect drive so that I can try different servo's out.  So question for those with tri's, what tail mechanism do you use? Direct or indirect?

Great news is that with that prop combo at 40% throttle (4s - 12.5A) I just start lifting and at 45% (4s - 15A) I'm confidently gaining alt (AUW approx 1.9kg - the battery weighs more than my 3s batteries), although currently with an increasing spin, so I didn't fly for long before I put her on the ground - only damage was a broken cable tie.  So I think I have my power issue sorted out, it will only get better with 14in props on it.  Time to order some 14 or 15 inch CF props I think :-) - Why do they come in pairs, I'm going to end up with lots of spare CW props.....

Hi Marschy, I'll do the thrust tests this afternoon, family Easter activities go in my way yesterday.  I'll try both the APC props and also the T-Style CF.

Some quick figures from the test flight:
1.9kg / 3 = 630g
12.5A / 3 = 4.2A

So I would day that I'm doing better than the 13x4.0 CF combo on the emax site (they have 4A as 600g).  I would suggest that I'd hover around 4.3-4.5A a motor as I'll loose some lift after I'm out of ground effect.

With my limited testing so far, I highly recommend the EMAX MT3515 motors on 4s, I cant wait to get some 6s ESC that work with the pixhawk and really give the motors a workout.

Chris

[CBRK]

Nice bloke on Facebook Phantom page just sold me the following for $300 !!
A Phantom 1 with OSD , Zenmuse 2D , DJI transmitter .
6 x 2200 mah DJI batteries
6 x 2800 mah Zippy batteries
2 x 2200 mah Gens Ace ...

Apparently I need a GoPro to fit the Zenmuse to get FPV .. My cameras won't do that ...

I figured the batteries alone would be worth the $300 so the Phantom is a bonus ... LOL ..

Makes up for the one that flew away last year ...

Happy happy happy ...

Holly crap that is a good deal.  Have you checked the condition in person?  That is the batteries are in good nick, etc.  Do you have a charger that tells you the Internal resistance of the batteries?  That will let you know what condition they are in.

So do you have it in your hands right now?  I would be careful, it might be hot property at that price or I'd bet the batteries have a high IR value by now.

Nicely done

You might need to tether this one to the ground 

Chris

[Mandrake]

All perfectly legit - all batteries are being charged now -- been well looked after by a professional aerial company .. I was amazed at the price -- This guy flies a Phantom 2 and an S900
for his work .. So he can't use the batteries so he got rid of them all in one go ... I'm happy --

Didn't realise though that the Phantom 1 has all motors with RH threads so I can't use my self tightening blades ...

The Zenmuse looks tricky - might have to do some youtubing to see how they work ...

[CBRK]

Hi Marschy,

Thrust Tests done for 14x4.7 APC and 12x5.5 CF props.  These were all measured using my thrust scales with my Watt Meter attached.  I used the Turnigy Plush 18A ESC, I couldn't be bothered to switch over the ESC on the test harness.  I'll do that soon.

Below is Amps - Grams of Thrust

14x4.7 APC
0.6 - 50
2 - 270
4 - 510
5.9 - 700
7.6 - 900
10 - 1025
15 - 1450
18 - 1700

12x5.5 CF
0.6 - 50g
2.2 - 250
4 - 450
6 - 600
7.5 - 720
10.1 - 900
15 - 1200
18 - 1400

Interesting that on the CF props in the real world I was lifting off at just over 4A - so around 450-500g per motor (I'm sure my AUW with new 4s battery is 1.8kg - so it should have been closer to 6A - I would be surprised if ground effect was that big)

The 14inch props appear to be the way to go, in terms of efficiency.  I'll be weighing up the costs tonight of 14 vs 15 inch CF props as I reckon the 15 inch would be even better.

FYI, still could barely hear the motor over the prop noise (damn those 12inch CF props are quiet too)

Once I've switched over the test harness (to the BLHELI 30A 3s to 8s ESC) I'll give the same tests on 6s.

Chris

[CBRK]

All perfectly legit - all batteries are being charged now -- been well looked after by a professional aerial company .. I was amazed at the price -- This guy flies a Phantom 2 and an S900
for his work .. So he can't use the batteries so he got rid of them all in one go ... I'm happy --

Didn't realise though that the Phantom 1 has all motors with RH threads so I can't use my self tightening blades ...

The Zenmuse looks tricky - might have to do some youtubing to see how they work ...

That is a sweet deal, well done on it.  For $300 hell I would have picked it up.

I have to admit the only thing I use 3s for is the mini quad and it only fits my 1300 and 2200 mah batts.  My other 3s batts (5000 and 5800mah) I will have to wait till I can run 6s (i'll use them in series to get a 6s)

Just check the Internal Resistance values to be sure.  It's the only way to know when the batteries are going down hill.  I've taken to writing the initial IR values in perm marker on my batts and then I check them every now and then.  I've got one 3s 5000mah battery that changed alot after the last crash, so I its now a test bench battery only.  I won't trust it in the air as 2 of the 3 cells tripled in it's IR value.  It means that as the batt gets discharged those cells will drop quicker than the other one and could lead to a serious imbalance and a more sudden drop off on voltage in general.

If they are a professional outfit (ie: hold CASA OC ticket) they will need to have tracked those in their battery log (might be a good idea to ask them for a copy of their battery log for the batteries you have)

My last charger I bought was specifically chosen as it measured IR, that was my main requirement.

Chris

[CBRK]

So happy I have a box of spares!  Just found out I have a 3.6kg @ 4.8V capable digital servo sitting in my parts box (previous was a 2.5kg - but I suspect is less).  This should be able to handle the force of the tail motor!  Bad news is the expected storm just rolled in so no more flying for the day.  Grrrrr

Seems that I have 2 of them, I've still got the other one arriving tomorrow but I've fitted the 3.6kg servo, I'm thinking of ordering a 22g - 7kg servo for $20 just to be sure, just that if had this much trouble with a 2.5kg servo swinging a 12 inch prop I can only imagine what will happen with a 15inch prop.

Chris

[CBRK]

The Zenmuse looks tricky - might have to do some youtubing to see how they work ...

Hey,

It looks pretty straight forwards as long as there is a spare knob on the controller.  I take it is already assembled and attached to the phantom?  Less mucking around than with the other gimbal controllers out there.

Chris

[Mandrake]

ok guys here's the video through the FPV camera showing lots of flickering can you have a look and advise -- Is this normal or can I get rid of it by repositioning antenna or something ??

www.lingeringlandscapes.com/Photos/INTERFERENCE.3gp

[CBRK]

ok guys here's the video through the FPV camera showing lots of flickering can you have a look and advise -- Is this normal or can I get rid of it by repositioning antenna or something ??

www.lingeringlandscapes.com/Photos/INTERFERENCE.3gp

Hi,

Seem to be getting a 404 error, are sure the link is right?

Chris

[Mandrake]

Trying to fix now ..

[CBRK]

Trying to fix now ..

LOL, no probs.  Will check back in a bit then 

[Mandrake]

Fixed now -- There was a teeny weeny space between the file name and the .

[CBRK]

ok guys here's the video through the FPV camera showing lots of flickering can you have a look and advise -- Is this normal or can I get rid of it by repositioning antenna or something ??

www.lingeringlandscapes.com/Photos/INTERFERENCE.3gp

Hi Mandrake,

I think you have two separate issues :-)

The first is the flickering OSD text, the second being the quality / interference.

The first one if it's the same as I had should be easy to fix.  My 2nd MinimOSD did this, all I had to do was update the firmware and character set and it went away.  If you have a FTDI TTL converter then I'd try that first.

On the second issue (assuming your on 5.8GHz), it doesn't look like you are far away from it.  I presume your standing in the park, so you should be getting a strong signal.  What antenna's are you using?  If you have the stock antennas then make sure that they are oriented on the same plane.  That is if the Vtx has it straight up, then the VRx should also be on the same axis.  Any variation, such as a banking (or you walking near it) will reduce the signal getting to them.  Think of your two fingers aligned the same way and touch them together, note the contact area, now rotate one 45 degrees and then note the contact area.  I know you didnt tilt the copter much but even a small tilt can reduce the quality.  So if using the stock antennas then I'd invest in some CP antennas.  If you are using CP antenna's or Patch antenna's then this should be reduced greatly.   Also if anything gets between the VRx and the VTx you'll get interference (I'm guessing you were walking nearby it?).

As a general precaution, I'd whack some ferrite's onto the power lines of the VTx.  On my early Tricopter I did this, on the later frames for some reason I haven't needed to.  Some have reported that the MinimOSD was creating noise and they also have choked the Telemetry Tx and Rx lines, but I've not had to at any stage.  A simple test for this is to bypass the MinimOSD and wire it up to send the signal straight to the VTx, if it goes away then you know it's coming from the Minim's lines (be it power or signal line).

How far away is the VTx to the FC and MinimOSD (and the lines between those items)?  If it's a 10-15cm away then I'd say you'd be okay unless your outputting on a really high EIRP.  Some people have mounted the antenna's upside down to get the VTx to not be blocked by the airframe itself.

Regards,

Chris

[CBRK]

Hi Mandrake,

I think you have two separate issues :-)

The first is the flickering OSD text, the second being the quality / interference.

The first one if it's the same as I had should be easy to fix.  My 2nd MinimOSD did this, all I had to do was update the firmware and character set and it went away.  If you have a FTDI TTL converter then I'd try that first.

On the second issue (assuming your on 5.8GHz), it doesn't look like you are far away from it.  I presume your standing in the park, so you should be getting a strong signal.  What antenna's are you using?  If you have the stock antennas then make sure that they are oriented on the same plane.  That is if the Vtx has it straight up, then the VRx should also be on the same axis.  Any variation, such as a banking (or you walking near it) will reduce the signal getting to them.  Think of your two fingers aligned the same way and touch them together, note the contact area, now rotate one 45 degrees and then note the contact area.  I know you didnt tilt the copter much but even a small tilt can reduce the quality.  So if using the stock antennas then I'd invest in some CP antennas.  If you are using CP antenna's or Patch antenna's then this should be reduced greatly.   Also if anything gets between the VRx and the VTx you'll get interference (I'm guessing you were walking nearby it?).

As a general precaution, I'd whack some ferrite's onto the power lines of the VTx.  On my early Tricopter I did this, on the later frames for some reason I haven't needed to.  Some have reported that the MinimOSD was creating noise and they also have choked the Telemetry Tx and Rx lines, but I've not had to at any stage.  A simple test for this is to bypass the MinimOSD and wire it up to send the signal straight to the VTx, if it goes away then you know it's coming from the Minim's lines (be it power or signal line).

How far away is the VTx to the FC and MinimOSD (and the lines between those items)?  If it's a 10-15cm away then I'd say you'd be okay unless your outputting on a really high EIRP.  Some people have mounted the antenna's upside down to get the VTx to not be blocked by the airframe itself.

Regards,

Chris

Oh one last thing, if you are using the stock antennas make sure you dont walk underneath it, keep it a fair few metres in front of you if your at 10m alt, very little of the signal will be radiated under or above it, I think they are 3 dbi gain antenna's from memory and at 5.8 GHz I recall that they don't broadcast much under them (or directly above them).

Chris

[Mandrake]

I'll try the firmware upgrade - I have an FTD USB thing around here someplace ...

I use the mini circular polarised antennae - The receiver is vertical and the transmitter is pointing straight down - I guess sometimes the gimbal would be in the way of direct line of sight but only when the Phantom is flying towards me ... Could it be a loose connector ? I've checked everything I can see that plugs in ( ie not soldered ) and it seems firm enough .

Thanks Chris

[CBRK]

I'll try the firmware upgrade - I have an FTD USB thing around here someplace ...

I use the mini circular polarised antennae - The receiver is vertical and the transmitter is pointing straight down - I guess sometimes the gimbal would be in the way of direct line of sight but only when the Phantom is flying towards me ... Could it be a loose connector ? I've checked everything I can see that plugs in ( ie not soldered ) and it seems firm enough .

Thanks Chris

No probs.

Excellent the CP antennas are good, it avoids that issue of needing to keep them on the same plane.  I had another look it seemed like you got the interference when it was facing in all directions, so I think given you've got it pointing downwards we can reasonably rule that out.  I did have a telemetry radio that had a dicky solder joint on the antenna connector which caused me some grief, but I'd suggest you'd notice a loose antenna connector.  If you have spares of stuff you can try swapping them out, just to rule out a dodgy component but I'd be looking at trying the ferrite chokes first.  I'd start with some that you can just snap on (so you don't have to undo lots to get it to fit and yes double check all connections - I had correctly assumed you'd already tried that :-) ), I have several ferrite snap on's just in case I get interference.

Also check if the VTx signal line is near any power cables (such as those going to your ESC's, or other noisy devices such as SBEC's).  If it is then reroute it, or just hold it out a bit to see if that reduces the interference.

I'd expect it to do what it did when you are flying 125-150m away and have the odd tree getting in the way.  Otherwise it might flicker like that once every minute from some random bit of interference.  Just checking there wasnt any major power lines in the near vicinity?  I'm presuming you get the same reception at home as well as out and about.

Besides the MinimOSD / FPV Video giving you grief how are you liking the APM?  How does it compare to the Phantom?

Chris

[Mandrake]

Besides the MinimOSD / FPV Video giving you grief how are you liking the APM?  How does it compare to the Phantom?

Chris

Haven't got the APM yet - this was the Phantom .. Am still waiting on motors and the APM to finish the Alien off properly ...
I'm going to strip down the Phantom 1 I bought the other day and give it a good clean - its got a bit of sand around the place .
Just ordered 2 Radiolink S-Bus receivers to try out .. hopefully I can use them on the Alien and the Phantom 1 ...
Gotta go find the FTD thingy now ...

[CBRK]

Haven't got the APM yet - this was the Phantom .. Am still waiting on motors and the APM to finish the Alien off properly ...
I'm going to strip down the Phantom 1 I bought the other day and give it a good clean - its got a bit of sand around the place .
Just ordered 2 Radiolink S-Bus receivers to try out .. hopefully I can use them on the Alien and the Phantom 1 ...
Gotta go find the FTD thingy now ...

Wow just learnt something new, I didn't realise you could use a MinimOSD on a Phantom, it makes sense though, all it needs is MavLink data which the can Phantom pump out.

I'm using S-BUS at present on the Tricopter (happened that two of my orangeRX happen to have it), I like it so far.

Chris