MySwag.org The Off-road Camper Trailer Forum
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: baz1 on October 02, 2019, 06:10:53 PM
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We went to a weighbridge in Caboolture with our Opus Camper to get everything weighed, to check we are compliant, the guy there was really helpful. He explained that the weighbridge is accurate to plus / minus 20kg, and we identified the following weights :
1. Laden weight Opus camper = 1820kg
2. Laden weight Nissan with luggage and occupants, but without camper attached = 2380kg.
3. Laden weight Nissan with luggage and occupants, with camper attached = 2580kg
4. Ball weight on Nissan = 200kg
5. Combined weight of Nissan and camper = 4200kg
So my question is this :
The GVM of the Nissan is 2715kg.
In relation to the max weight we can place on the towball of the Nissan, the Nissan instructions state when the towball weight is 200kg, the GVM should be reduced by 300kg. So this gives us two possible scenarios:
1. With the GVM of 2715kg being reduced by 300kg, our new GVM is 2415kg. Given the Laden weight Nissan with luggage and occupants, and the camper attached, and therefore also the weight of the ball, is 2580kg, this means we are 165kg over our GVM.
2. Given the Laden weight Nissan with luggage and occupants, and the camper attached and therefore also the weight of the ball, is 2580kg, we do not need to reduce the GVM by 300kg, as we know what the total weight of the Nissan, including the weight of the ball of the camper, is 2580kg. Given the ‘un de-rated’ GVM of the Nissan is 2715kg, this means we are 135kg under our GVM.
I’d appreciate anyone’s advice, as to which scenario is correct, are we 165kg over our GVM, or 135kg under?
Also, if our ball weight came in at 200kg, our car can take 200kg, do you really think it will make any (adverse) difference if we add another 9kg gas bottle?
Cheers!
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At a guess they are ensuring rear axle weight stays within limits.
Did you happen to get front and rear axle weights??
Either way your miles ahead of the majority.....as the majority dont even consider going over s bridge.
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I did ask the bloke about doing axle weights, but he said he didn’t usually do those. I imagine it might be difficult to identify the axle weight as it would be affected by exactly how far the axle is from the edge of the bridge, so not an exact science. From the trip to the weighbridge, assuming someone is able to awnser the question I posed and we are under the GVM, I think we are compliant, but only just, with not much room to move.
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Axle position on the bridge doesn’t matter......
If you stand on the very edge of the bridge than in the middle you should have the same weight.
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towball weight is 200kg, the GVM should be reduced by 300kg, rather strange, I would suggest you redistribute the weight in the camper to make the
towball weight 199kg, problem solved.
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Position on bridge doesnt matter as weight is weight, there are multiple load cells en each bridge plate for that reason. Option 2 is correct you are under GVM. GVM is inclusive of all weight imposed on vehicle including ball weight. So as long as axle weights are good and i would assume they are you are good to go legally. Regarding the extra 9kg bottle, adverse difference cant really say though all weight limits are conservative from manufacturers, the legal standing is cant ne done. This being that it exceeds manufacturers ratings, insurance may not payout in an event either. If a random check was done correctly you may end up with a fine over it even though all other weights are good. Cheers Batto.
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Option 1 you are over.
With your ball weight GVM is less 300.
The weighbridge could do axle Weight as the approach and departure area should be on the same level.
The other question is do you know the rated GCM? Which you weighed at 4200
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Option 1 you are over.
With your ball weight GVM is less 300.
Is the reduction of 300 not excluded, because we know the weight of the Nissan, its contents, and this weight also includes the weight of the camper on the ball, therefore we do not have to made an additional deduction to compensate for the ball weight (as its already been done)
The weighbridge could do axle Weight as the approach and departure area should be on the same level.
The other question is do you know the rated GCM? Which you weighed at 4200
I'm afraid I have no idea what the rated GCM is.
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Rear axle weight isn’t ball weight, it is ball weight plus lever weight from the towball to the centre of the rear axle. Your actual ball weight will be somewhat less than 200 kg (170/180 at a guess). You should be able to use a slightly easier gvm reduction figure.
When you get pulled over and weighed they will be checking your rear axle weight which you don’t know, and don’t know if you are in tolerance. This is important.
Were you full of fuel when weighed? Y62 patrols look to be tare weighted with no fuel. What model Nissan have you got?
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Hi mate, we have a 2015 Nissan Pathfinder ST, it was full of fuel, and fully loaded.
Why do you think the ball weight would be less than 200kg as measured? I was told the tolerance on the weighbridge is plus / minus 20kg.
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I'd suggest you contact Nissan and ask for clarification. I would be surprised if they wanted to reduce the GVM by 300 and then take the tow ball weight off.
Aaron
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This is the sticker on our Pathfinder, but I agree with you, I can’t see how we would be expected to take the total loaded weight of the Nissan, including the weight of the camper which is attached to the trailer, so this weight is taken into account, and then do a ‘double whammy’ and reduce the GVM by another 300kg, to take into account the weight of the camper, which we have already taken into account?(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191002/3c2b6ac3c856efa8f890b4704ba50aaf.jpg)
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Interesting bit I see on that label - "For Trailer Towing Only" ???
What, you aren't allowed to tow a caravan ???
What else would / could you tow if it's not a trailer ???
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Hi mate, we have a 2015 Nissan Pathfinder ST, it was full of fuel, and fully loaded.
Why do you think the ball weight would be less than 200kg as measured? I was told the tolerance on the weighbridge is plus / minus 20kg.
Because you measured axles, not ball weight.
You'll note that on your GVM reduction chart that for each 50KG of ball weight, they require you to reduce GVM by 90 KG.
That is because the 2nd class lever (long wheelbarrow handles theory) from the towball on the car to where the mass hits the ground (rear wheels), actually increases the ball weight of the trailer.
It also works in reverse, so it would pay you to get a mobile van weigher to come to your house and measure your actual ball weight because a bloke by the name of Archimedes guarantees it is going to be less the 200 k.g. and you need every break you can get.
Using that GVM reduction chart you can plot a line on an X/Y axis, and when you get your actual ball weight, you can look at exactly what your GVM reduction is going to be.
A mobile guy will also be able to check your rear axle weight because it looks like you only have 1415 kg to play with depending on the model you have and that is a more relevant figure if you wish to make it in and out of a transport department check unscathed.
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Glad you asked? ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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GCM for the Pathfinder is 5880kg so you're technically under GCM, but you need to factor in ball weight and axle loading. I can't recall what the axles are rated at, but I'd suspect that's why you have to change vehicle weight as ball weight goes up.
A good engineer like the guys at Enklemans should be able to give you some advice over the phone, as they deal with these queries every day.
Bear in mind also that manufacturer axle ratings are usually very conservative, and that you can get you GVM upgraded, but no longer your GCM
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I know it's not your vehicle specs but they should be readily available from the net, here are our vehicle specs.
WEIGHTS(kg)
Kerb Weight 2,540kg(includes 75kg driver and fuel (80lts)
Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) 3,240kg
Maximum mass on each axle (front) 1,450kg
Maximum mass on each axle (rear) 1,855kg
TOWING (kg)
Unbraked trailer 750kg
Maximum towing (Braked trailer) 3,500kg
Maximum coupling point/nose weight 350kg
Maximum vehicle and trailer combination/Gross Train Weight 6,740(GCM)
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Just an FYI for you and others. You can buy a ball weight scale from places like Autobarn or Supercheap which will give much more accurate figures than a weighbridge which has +/-20kg accuracy. They can be bought for around the $80 mark and are pretty useful for checking what effect shifting the load around in your van or camper has on the ball weight.
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If our towball was identified at 200kg, and GBC says its more likely 170-180kg, for reasons which i do not understand, but is consistent with what the guy at the weigh bridge was saying, it sounds like we are ok on that front.
I rang our local dealer where our vehicle is serviced, and trying to get a strait response was pretty difficult, but he seems to be of the view that if the total weight of the vehicle plus the weight on the ball of the vehicle is identified, which it was, then there is no need to reduce the GVM of the vehicle by the 300kg, as we have already taken into account the weight on the vehicles lowball, therefore there is no need to de-rate. That being said, i wasn't inspired with confidence by what the bloke said. So hopefully we are under the GVM.
That just leaves the axle weight, and who knows, as we never for it measured. Maybe that's one for next time we go to the weigh bridge. The rear axle weight limit of the Nissan is 1454kg, i can only hope that if we are under our GVM, we should be under the axle weight limit. To be honest, there isn't a huge amount we can do anyway, as we can't move any weight around, to put weight behind the axle of the camper trailer to reduce the weight on the rear of the Nissan, and its not like we can buy a new car.
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Just an FYI for you and others. You can buy a ball weight scale from places like Autobarn or Supercheap which will give much more accurate figures than a weighbridge which has +/-20kg accuracy. They can be bought for around the $80 mark and are pretty useful for checking what effect shifting the load around in your van or camper has on the ball weight.
yea theres another thread by this dude on that and how inaccurate they were :(
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Interesting bit I see on that label - "For Trailer Towing Only" ???
What, you aren't allowed to tow a caravan ???
What else would / could you tow if it's not a trailer ???
Not meant for any other purpose.....like snatching, pulling over trees, hanging the 4wd upside down from a cliff or any other stupid idea that a human could think up !! ;D ;D
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yea theres another thread by this dude on that and how inaccurate they were :(
If you buy one that's certified to the relevant AS you will get a weight to the nearest 10kg.
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If you buy one that's certified to the relevant AS you will get a weight to the nearest 10kg.
Or you can use the bathroom scales...if done properly, accurate to the kilo.
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The easy way to get your rear axle weight is drive onto the bridge and weigh the front axle, drive forward and weigh both front and rear of tow vehicle (with trailer attached of course), subtract the front axle weight from the total and you have your rear axle weight. As you have already identified on a bridge with +/- 20kg accuracy your 200kg ball weight could be anywhere between 180kg and 220kg.
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Or you can use the bathroom scales...if done properly, accurate to the kilo.
Yep. IF done properly....
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This may help you https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swUDFWQ5QhI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swUDFWQ5QhI)
https://toyotamanuals.com.au/images/towing_guide-toyota.pdf (https://toyotamanuals.com.au/images/towing_guide-toyota.pdf)
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What the dealer said was wrong.
Yes you have towball weight, so GVM is decreased. Yes you still have to include that weight in the total weighed GVM.
Weighbridge accuracy is 20kg, because of the increments it can show, i.e 20, 40, 60 etc.
It can't show 50, 55, 56
Even if you ball weight is 180, and you reduce GVM by 210 instead of 300, you are still over.
To suggest it is 170/180 without weighing or seeing it is fraught with danger. The 200 as calculated by the weighbridge is the most accurate you have at the moment.
The best way would be to have a post the same height as the towball (when loaded) put that on the scale and lower the coupling on.
Also looking at you car specs for axle load, their total is only 65kg, (< 1 person) over GVM. so you would have to get your load fairly well balanced.
As GBC said your rear axle weight, is what I'd be looking at if you to do anything. Put front axle on plate, trailer attached and subtract that from your GVM as weighed.
Towball scales aren't great. I've got one and can get reading between 90 and 190 kg for exactly the same setup, depending on how I use it.
I know you said you can't, but anything out of the car to the rear of the camper will help more than its weight. 10 kg out of car is -10 off GVM. Add it to the rear of the trailer, and it will also reduce ballweight, and GVM even further.
In reality you should be fine, I'd keep in mind rear axle Weight for next time.
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I agree with Jonesy, once you find out what your rear axle max weight is, go from there, I wouldn't stress too much a few kilos over won't be a problem if you do get pulled over, which I doubt you will, as long as your setup looks nice and level it shouldn't be an issue.
Unlike some of these grey nomads that drive around with the arse of the car dragging on the ground >:D
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Not meant for any other purpose.....like snatching, pulling over trees, hanging the 4wd upside down from a cliff or any other stupid idea that a human could think up !! ;D ;D
Thanks, Gronk - makes sense! :-[
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Towball scales aren't great. I've got one and can get reading between 90 and 190 kg for exactly the same setup, depending on how I use it.
100kg variance? They are just a spring inside a couple of tubes and the spring will compress at a known rate for any given load. Unless the tubes are binding or something like that it's simply not possible for the readings to vary that much. I've used mine a few times and whilst I don't know exactly how accurate it is, it reads the same each time unless I alter the weight in the camper.
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100kg variance? They are just a spring inside a couple of tubes and the spring will compress at a known rate for any given load. Unless the tubes are binding or something like that it's simply not possible for the readings to vary that much. I've used mine a few times and whilst I don't know exactly how accurate it is, it reads the same each time unless I alter the weight in the camper.
it should be simple...
but its not unusual which is what I was saying earlier.. 50kg diff in weighbridge and towball scales.. 2 people in my club with towball scales.. both give massive reading differences.
'He then went home, and used a tow ball weigh scale from somewhere like BCF, no change to the load, it comes in at 110kg. How would you account for a 50kg difference, and which one would you trust?'
http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=56655.0 (http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=56655.0)
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100kg variance? They are just a spring inside a couple of tubes and the spring will compress at a known rate for any given load. Unless the tubes are binding or something like that it's simply not possible for the readings to vary that much. I've used mine a few times and whilst I don't know exactly how accurate it is, it reads the same each time unless I alter the weight in the camper.
http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=56655.msg996294#msg996294
Has how I managed to achieve wildly different readings. I couldn't and get it to bounce up and down like a normal spring type bathroom scale.
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http://www.myswag.org/index.php?topic=56655.msg996294#msg996294
Has how I managed to achieve wildly different readings. I couldn't and get it to bounce up and down like a normal spring type bathroom scale.
That is pretty bad. It seems like it's binding between the two sections that are supposed to move smoothly. I'd take it back for a refund.
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Off for a weigh in today...after new fitout
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This is well worth watching
Very good explanations
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv394M0ZMqo
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Something to keep in mind is that all errors are additive. This means that a weighbridge with an accuracy of +/-20 kg is effectively useless to calculate a ball weight. If each measurement is +/-20 kg, the calculated ball weight will be +/-40 kg. A result of 200 +/-40 kg is not really a useful figure. Even if measured directly on the weighbridge you get 200 +/-20 kg, again not terribly useful if 200 kg is an important value.
2011 NT Pajero; 2007 Goldstream Crown 4B
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This is well worth watching
Very good explanations
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv394M0ZMqo
Thanks for that Mark!
Might have to give them a call ???
Another link to when the two of them had their own weight checked
https://youtu.be/T_DNf0v1zMQ?t=867 (https://youtu.be/T_DNf0v1zMQ?t=867)
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Something to keep in mind is that all errors are additive. This means that a weighbridge with an accuracy of +/-20 kg is effectively useless to calculate a ball weight. If each measurement is +/-20 kg, the calculated ball weight will be +/-40 kg. A result of 200 +/-40 kg is not really a useful figure. Even if measured directly on the weighbridge you get 200 +/-20 kg, again not terribly useful if 200 kg is an important value.
2011 NT Pajero; 2007 Goldstream Crown 4B
In my experience, most public weigh bridges go up and down in 20kg increments...therefore the weight displayed can only be +/- 10kg....I’m not sure how your getting 40kg as a total error.
I’d say that’s pretty good for doing axle weights, tare, GVM and GCVM.
For towball weights on a weigh bridge which I ’ve done this many time, again not 100% accurate as your not measuring from the tow ball, it’s either at the jockey wheel or rear axle.
Either way, if your within +/- 10kg off your max. weights on a weigh bridge than it’s time to maybe monitoring things.
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Just rolled over a weight bridge...free as I didn’t want a docket although it helps when we use recycle steel with them.
Just picked the car up with new fitout, empty apart from driver at 100kg and full tank of fuel
1200 front axle
1440 rear axle
2640 tare
3050 GVM
410kg pay load available......hmm, be interesting to see Touring weight.
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Either way, if your within +/- 10kg off your max. weights on a weigh bridge than it’s time to maybe monitoring things.
I agree, but I noticed that the people in those videos ^^, mentioned an "80kg tolerance" ???
Anybody heard of that before ???
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G'day weeds, The original poster quoted the weighbridge operator saying +/-20 kg. I agree it's most likely +/-10 kg. The point though is the additive nature of the errors, so for a 200 kg difference you would get +/-20 kg or 10%. Then if 200 kg triggers a step change in capacity it is still problematic.
2011 NT Pajero; 2007 Goldstream Crown 4B
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An option on the north side of Brisbane.....at least they advertise a price.
http://www.aussieescapecaravans.com.au/page/weigh-to-go/
Think they have a special @ $100 at the moment
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